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Bronze age axe advice wanted (Read 13996 times)
greencheapsk8
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Bronze age axe advice wanted
Jun 29th, 2011 at 5:58am
 
Hey you lot, any of you know anything about bronze age axes?
Like this
http://www.ancienttouch.com/1181.jpg
But more ancient-y

SO anyone got anything on grid paper, or a few good pics with a ruler?
Im going to make one from Phosphor bronze, but need some guidance.
Or ill at least put it on the to-do list.

After the new flasks, the Thor hammer, the animal skulls, the big sword..........
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jlasud
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Re: Bronze age axe advice wanted
Reply #1 - Jun 29th, 2011 at 8:25am
 
Not yet,but rowing in the same boat.Charcoal ready,furnace half-way,crucibles made..I'll share if i progress..you should too.
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Goljat
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Re: Bronze age axe advice wanted
Reply #2 - Jun 29th, 2011 at 4:12pm
 
well yes, but that is a science all its own.

look up ötzi.

this is a link to a picture of his axe

http://www.suedsauerlandmuseum.de/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Axt-Large1-150x300....

http://www.speerschleuder.de/Peripherie/Peripherie.html

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Mauro Fiorentini
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Re: Bronze age axe advice wanted
Reply #3 - Jul 4th, 2011 at 8:15am
 
I've been melting bronze (but using ancient technologies) for about 3 years before turning to iron.
Our team made a lot of axes, a dozen I think, so... feel free to ask  Wink
But beware, we made otzi's style, not axes like the one you posted - which seems from Middle East perhaps?
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Bill Skinner
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Re: Bronze age axe advice wanted
Reply #4 - Jul 4th, 2011 at 10:59am
 
The one posted in the link seemed to be an "I" cross section?  I realize it will be stronger, all the pictures seem to show an oval or rectangular cross section, which one is correct?  Or was it cast and then hammered into the I cross section?  I have made some Mississippian stye axes by heating the copper and then hammering it to shape, repeating the heating when the copper starts to work harden, was Otzis' ax hammered to work harden it?  I have looked at several pictures but they don't show enough detail.  Bill
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Mauro Fiorentini
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Re: Bronze age axe advice wanted
Reply #5 - Jul 4th, 2011 at 3:16pm
 
Hallo Bill!
I am 90% sure that they hammered the axe to produce that "I" shape, and for several reasons.
Basing on my melting experiences, these are:

1 - it's easier to produce a flat mold, than two molds with changes in depth;
2 - hammered copper is stronger than raw one (and hammered bronze is nearly as strong as steel);
and more that are simply too hard for me to translate in English  Smiley

By the way, Italian Copper Age axes are few, and all looks like chisels more than axes. The four small side "wings" grants a stronger grip in the handle.
About the oval or rectangular cross sections, I believe I can help you, but I may not have understood what you mean - could you post a link to these pictures?
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Bill Skinner
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Re: Bronze age axe advice wanted
Reply #6 - Jul 5th, 2011 at 12:38am
 
I have been going through a lot of different sites, there really is not a good close up picture of the blade that I have been able to find.  The link up top is about as good as it gets.  I have seen a film about Otzi casting his copper ax, it showed a flat mold...but it was just a film. 

The second link has some good close ups, it also showed why his ax head was hafted like that instead of as a celt.  As it got deeper into the handle, the wings would have split the handle.  Bill
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Sadrice
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Re: Bronze age axe advice wanted
Reply #7 - Jul 5th, 2011 at 12:39am
 
When I was lloking through denmark's national museum, I saw an ancient stone axe mold, and I believe it had the I cross section, though I may be misremembering.
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Mauro Fiorentini
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Re: Bronze age axe advice wanted
Reply #8 - Jul 5th, 2011 at 3:06am
 
Hallo there!
Bill, I thought you was talking about these sections that comes with archaeological drawings, like these, for example:
...

...

Anyway, here're some pictures of one of our experiments: that evening, we were trying to melt axes, perhaps you'll find the pics of the molds of some use.
...

...

...

...

...

The main objective of that day was to see how many meltings could have been done by a 3-men team, using the same crucible. We managed to make 8, and then the crucible broke.
By the way, since these days the bronze melter is using a "winged" bronze axe, and the handle has not split yet. The axe is handled with its edge perpendicular to the handle, like this one:
...

Greetings!
Mauro.
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Bill Skinner
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Re: Bronze age axe advice wanted
Reply #9 - Jul 5th, 2011 at 9:44am
 
The celt handles I am familiar with are just a cone shaped hole hole bored in the handle, the ax head is tapered, as you chop with it , it hammers the blade tighter, as long as it only touches the top and bottom of the hole.  If it touches the sides, it will act as a wedge and split the handle.  

As the wings are wider than the blade, they will touch the sides and split the handle unless it is mounted in a branch that is perpendicular to the handle.  I wondered why Otzi had his ax head mounted that way, I thought it was because the blade was small and he wanted more wood in the handle for some extra weight.  

If you to the Moundville Archaeological Park site, one of the pictures has a figure holding a cedar handled, copper bladed ax.  That ax is a copy of a stone monolithic ax found on site.  There are a number of copper blades on display but none of the handles survived on this site.  These are one of the types of copper bladed axes that I am familiar with.   Bill
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Mauro Fiorentini
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Re: Bronze age axe advice wanted
Reply #10 - Jul 6th, 2011 at 8:31am
 
All right then!
Your type of celt handle was common during the Italian Neolithic; to preven the handle's splitting, they put a modeled bone between the axe and the handle.

To haft a metal axe, they found that the most secure way was to chop a L shape branch, and to put the axe perpendicular to the handle.
Where the branch bended, there was often a node, which is a piece of stronger wood, which augmented the general solidity. It's a type of axe that's still used by some African populations, and it's the exact replica of the Copper and Bronze Age ones  Wink
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greencheapsk8
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Re: Bronze age axe advice wanted
Reply #11 - Jul 7th, 2011 at 3:12am
 
Did any civilisation use the modern way of axe head-shaft?
You know, the branch through a hole and wedged way?
or branch through a hole and cord way?
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greencheapsk8
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Re: Bronze age axe advice wanted
Reply #12 - Jul 7th, 2011 at 3:45am
 
Hey guys, i found this site, answered many of my questions with pictures. check it out:
http://www.ancienttouch.com/

You have to go into the weapons bit, but theres plenty to interest most of us guys on here Smiley
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Mauro Fiorentini
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Re: Bronze age axe advice wanted
Reply #13 - Jul 7th, 2011 at 8:01am
 
Hi green!
I can tell you, for sure, that African tribes of the Dogon and Pygmies still use that type of axe.
Howewer, I'm writing my thesis about experimental archaeology, and a huge help to this discipline comes from anthropology: I'm going to study African tribes that are still using our Bronze/Iron Age technology and tools, so I'll report anything of interest  Wink

Your link is very interesting, and in this page http://www.ancienttouch.com/neolithic_and_bronze_age__bronze.htm it reports as "celt axes" these that were mounted in the L shaped handle.
Being more recent than Otzi's, these "celt axes" were casted with a hole that had to be filled with the branch; in Italy, we call them "ascia a cartoccio", and are typical of my ancestor's civilization, the Piceni.
They were common between both the left and the right side of the Adriatic, testifying many links between the Piceni and the ancient Albanians - which produces many interesting questions about the Piceni's origins.
In this other page http://www.ancienttouch.com/bronze_age%20axes,%20adzes.htm, you can see how the type of axe you're willing to recreate comes from Near and Middle East  Wink

Greetings,
Mauro.
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greencheapsk8
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Re: Bronze age axe advice wanted
Reply #14 - Jul 8th, 2011 at 3:48am
 
Archeology is a game of Sherlock Holmes then Smiley

And yup, those are pretty much the type im heading for
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Rivers of silver, that is my dream.&&Glowing, twisting, snaking, flowing.&&Cooling and burning, shrinking and melting.&&
 
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