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J. B. Finney, Middle Iron Age Warfare (Read 14332 times)
Thearos
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Re: J. B. Finney, Middle Iron Age Warfare
Reply #30 - May 24th, 2010 at 6:52am
 
Aussie: more like a way of converting downtime (which there's a lot of in agricultural and pastoral societies) into resources, namely manufactured objects
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Re: J. B. Finney, Middle Iron Age Warfare
Reply #31 - May 24th, 2010 at 6:14pm
 
To be fair to Finney, we or at least I, have taken his statement in isolation. To me it sounds like a sort of summary which probably follows a section of explanatory text. Perhaps the intent is really to say that, "Despite the sling's apparent simplicity, any device which so greatly enhances the user's natural capability needs care in manufacture and is worthy of study".  Would that be a fair assessment?

My only real peeve is that Finney may have unwittingly strayed outside his area of expertise. I am nobody's historian or archaeologist and I am sure Finney is an expert in his field. However analysis of projectile trajectories is really the preserve of physicists and is hardly an unknown field. Granted it is not an easy task to locate expert slingers, but to base a thesis solely on the results of one's own beginner level slinging, assuming those results to be typical, is a bit unprofessional, is it not?
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Thearos
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Re: J. B. Finney, Middle Iron Age Warfare
Reply #32 - May 25th, 2010 at 4:15am
 
You could download the thesis (wanderer gives link) and go through the data which Finney gives. Wanderer seems to be doing just that.

Also, I hope wanderer tells us how the data, mistakes if there are any, etc,affect the argument
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Re: J. B. Finney, Middle Iron Age Warfare
Reply #33 - May 25th, 2010 at 9:09am
 
Thearos wrote on May 25th, 2010 at 4:15am:
You could download the thesis (wanderer gives link) and go through the data which Finney gives. Wanderer seems to be doing just that.

Also, I hope wanderer tells us how the data, mistakes if there are any, etc,affect the argument


SmileyWell, I'll try to do just that. It will have to wait a day or two I think, I'm unable to work on it at the moment.

A summary, though, is that Finney only touches briefly on the effect of air resistance, in the hope that he can neglect it. He decides he can, because at high Reynolds Numbers the drag coefficient falls (this is the 'drag crisis'). For a sphere it drops from about 0.5 to 0.1. He calculates that he has velocities above the drag crisis, says 'yippee!' and proceeds to ignore drag for the rest of the work. He should have gone further, but this would have 'opened the can of worms' probably further than anyone would like. Evaluating with any degree of certainty actual values for his launch velocities is going to be close to impossible, particularly because he was clearly not a very experienced slinger, and it seems his launch velocities really are all over the place. In addition each throw involved a different stone.

More later, I hope Huh
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Re: J. B. Finney, Middle Iron Age Warfare
Reply #34 - Jul 19th, 2022 at 2:49am
 
The main mistake of Finney is to test a sling and a style of throwing without asking the question of the goal pursued at this period.

A rock thrown from a hill must have what weight or speed to crush the head of the guy trying to climb the hill ? Only then, can it be judged whether a particular style or sling are suitable for the purpose of this period.
Another example, do they fight at 200 meters or 50 ? We don't know, so no hative conclusions.

His conclusions are produced by our modern reasoning (and his inexperience of the sling) and don't answer the question of defending a hill by throwing stone at this period.

Just my idea. I can be wrong but that's what I think.

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Re: J. B. Finney, Middle Iron Age Warfare
Reply #35 - Jul 19th, 2022 at 7:32am
 
I started reading chapter 5. Exciting.
Just one example :
The one who throws at 70/80 meters is ok. His necessarily diminuate average is approximatively in the space between the ramparts. It's consistent.
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Re: J. B. Finney, Middle Iron Age Warfare
Reply #36 - Jul 19th, 2022 at 8:17am
 
I think pretty much all Finney's conclusions have been proved incorrect by the experiments we did at hodd hill.
As were the somewhat ridiculous theories of some modern historians.

Hodd hill is An actual historic hillfort, where large caches of sling stones were found.
Nd we had permission to conduct live fire experiments.

I'm one of the few people to have simulated both an attacking and defending army of slingers at a relatively intact hill fort.

Unfortunately Pete's book is no longer available on Amazon Sad

It's got a long title I can never properly remember, hang on I'll go find it Smiley

https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1468418037/5#5

There are various threads on the whole endeavour around the forum.
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Re: J. B. Finney, Middle Iron Age Warfare
Reply #37 - Jul 19th, 2022 at 8:28am
 
Iron Age Hillfort Defences and the Tactics of Sling Warfare
By Peter Robertson

Not: Robinson.

Also it turns out that if you put the right search in, Amazon still has it Smiley
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hillfort-Defences-Tactics-Sling-Warfare/dp/178491410X/r...

Given that Pete's book is the only one that involved experienced slingers (myself and David Morningstar) it's pretty much the only book on historical slinging based on accurate information and statistics.


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Re: J. B. Finney, Middle Iron Age Warfare
Reply #38 - Jul 20th, 2022 at 3:34am
 
Curious Aardvark wrote on Jul 19th, 2022 at 8:17am:
Re: J. B. Finney, Middle Iron Age Warfare
Reply #36 - Yesterday at 8:17am   I think pretty much all Finney's conclusions have been proved incorrect by the experiments we did at hodd hill.
As were the somewhat ridiculous theories of some modern historians.

Hodd hill is An actual historic hillfort, where large caches of sling stones were found.
Nd we had permission to conduct live fire experiments.

I'm one of the few people to have simulated both an attacking and defending army of slingers at a relatively intact hill fort.


It's an experience I wish I had. There is a post about your test in the forum. I remember that the importance of shooting angle.

Curious Aardvark wrote on Jul 19th, 2022 at 8:28am:
Given that Pete's book is the only one that involved experienced slingers (myself and David Morningstar) it's pretty much the only book on historical slinging based on accurate information and statistics.


Le Puy d'Issolud (France) was a Gaulish oppidum where there was a great battle.  Archeologists have done tests, like Finney. But, they asked military officers for their opinion. A very good idea because it was a warfare.

I hope to find your post.



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Re: J. B. Finney, Middle Iron Age Warfare
Reply #39 - Jul 20th, 2022 at 5:29am
 
https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1501413657

I only found this post. Maybe a bad job ?
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Re: J. B. Finney, Middle Iron Age Warfare
Reply #40 - Jul 20th, 2022 at 7:20am
 
Modern Military officers would have little knowledge of slings or their capabilities.

But at least they made an effort to learn about the strategic side of a hillfort assault.
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Re: J. B. Finney, Middle Iron Age Warfare
Reply #41 - Jul 20th, 2022 at 8:34am
 
TOMBELAINE wrote on Jul 20th, 2022 at 5:29am:
Re: J. B. Finney, Middle Iron Age Warfare
Reply #39 - Today at 5:29am     https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1501413657

I only found this post. Maybe a bad job ?


My english isn't good; I want to say "maybe I'have been looking bad".

I'm sure your test is good. So, I'm interested.
The text about Le Puy d'Issolud is in french but I advise it to read.
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Re: J. B. Finney, Middle Iron Age Warfare
Reply #42 - Jul 26th, 2022 at 8:13am
 
http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1327496223/0

The tests which Curious Aardvark says. A very interesting discussion.
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