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Balearic slingers: arms (Read 9016 times)
Aussie
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Re: Balearic slingers: arms
Reply #15 - Apr 28th, 2009 at 8:09am
 
Thearos wrote on Apr 22nd, 2009 at 4:40pm:
For an example of a skeleton of an ancient fighter, the "soldier" found at Sardis (e.g. When a Mighty Empire Was Destroyed: The Common Man at the Fall of Sardis, ca. 546 B. C.
Crawford H. Greenewalt, Jr.
Proceedings of the American Philosophical Society, Vol. 136, No. 2 (Jun., 1992), pp. 247-271)

--20-26 year old man, killed in capture of Sardis (546 BC), very strong left arm (shield), also traces of repetitve rotative activity on left arm; healed wound to the head; compressed neck vertebrae from wearing helmet. Pretty typical, perhaps, of what a heavy infantryman's bones looked like


Why rotative activity with the left arm? Was he one of the famed left-handed Benjamite slingers who could sling at a hair's breadth and not miss?
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Lycurgus
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Re: Balearic slingers: arms
Reply #16 - Apr 28th, 2009 at 8:49am
 
Thearos wrote on Apr 27th, 2009 at 6:11pm:
I agree with what Fundibularius writes. Ancient shields can be two griped (a hoop through which the arm goes, a grip on the edge of the shield) or single gripped (a handle in the centre of the shield board). The Greek "aspis" (called "hoplon" only after the Classical period) is an example of the first type, the Roman scutum (and Celtic shield) of the second. Weight > Say 8 kgs. The sword might weigh 2 kg or less.

The shield stays "up" during manoeuver and battle; arm muscles locked into place (as any Dark Ages or earlier reenactor will tell you). Not clear what actually happens at the sharp end of edged weapon combat; e.g. Adrian Goldsworthy v. good on this. Probably front-fighters, in loose but not too lose formation, two deep, jostle and fight behind raised shields, with spear and sword, aiming for vulnerable bits and aiming for the knock out blow (throat; arteries in thigh. groin). Possibly men fall back to catch breath, and odd pauses happen. A lot of shoving with shields. As melee progresses, lines grow closer, spears break and sword work means fighters step in and can't fall back away from the killing zone anymore-- and eventually the two masses square off. But the actually mechanics by which one battle line physically drives away the other not clear (do people start panicking at the back ?).

Anyway, this is the model now proposed (Goldsworthy, Krentz, van Wees-- see e.g. the recently publishee Cambridge Companion to Ancient Warfare)-- rather than the old model of battle lines physically crashing into each other (Keegan, Hanson). But all the while, men are lugging contraptions the weight of small suitcases with their left arms.



Hello,
As probably the only person on here who has spent time in a phalanx (There werre 7 of us Grin) I can confirm that the Greek shield or Aspis can be heavy to carry around for any length of time, but not so heavy as to be exhausting (about 14lbs is average). With the central Paupax you take a most of the weight at your elbow with the Antilabe handle at the rim used to prevent the Aspis pivoting when struck. As it is held mainly in one position during formation stamina rather than strength is the main requirement.
The Aspis is also larger than most people think as it has to protect from neck to knee and being circular almost the entire left hand side extends to cover the hoplite to the left, hence the right side of any phalanx was the weakest side.
Because of its design, the Aspis is only effective when used in a phalanx, it is to cumbersome to use in a one-on-one fight and virtually useless if used when dueling with swords of the same period.

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Thearos
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Re: Balearic slingers: arms
Reply #17 - Apr 28th, 2009 at 10:32am
 
Aussie: of course, I meant right arm.

Lycurgus: note that the idea that "aspis-fighters were useless outside of the phalanx" is now challenged. H. van Wees, Greek warfare, reality and myths, gives the strongest statement of this. Some references (I haven;'t got texts to hand): In Herodotos 5, there is an Argive, Eurybates, who likes to fight duels; the man who kills him, Sophanes of Dekeleia, is then famed for his prowess in battle (Hdt 9.73, i think); Sokrates, in the retreat after Delion, kept his shield and his cool, and scared off pursuing Boiotian cavalry (Plato Symposion); early C5th vases regularly show one on one fighting between aspis fighters; C7th Crete shows weapons captured by individual fighters, presumably in duels (Hoffmann, Cretan armorers); Thucydides (e.g. Book 4, Brasidas' fighting), and Xenophon (Anabasis; also Hellenica) show you hoplites, with aspis, carrying out all kinds of loose formation fighting. Of course, this is not to say that most hoplites or panhoploi fought in serried ranks; just that they were more of all rounders than sometimes admitted. The pyrriche, dance in arms, with its violent shield movements and twists and turns and stamps (very recognizable to anyone who fences), is presumably related to this

Finally, as a past reenactor (I stopped when I got stabbed in the eye with a blunt sword), I can say that double grip shield is no problem for one on one duelling (it's the single grips that are much trickier). Mediaeval guys do double grip shield duelling all the time (say C13th century guys)

FWIW-- and away from our Balearic humeruses.


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Re: Balearic slingers: arms
Reply #18 - Apr 28th, 2009 at 10:56am
 
Thearos wrote on Apr 28th, 2009 at 10:32am:
Aussie: of course, I meant right arm.

Lycurgus: note that the idea that "aspis-fighters were useless outside of the phalanx" is now challenged. H. van Wees, Greek warfare, reality and myths, gives the strongest statement of this. Some references (I haven;'t got texts to hand): In Herodotos 5, there is an Argive, Eurybates, who likes to fight duels; the man who kills him, Sophanes of Dekeleia, is then famed for his prowess in battle (Hdt 9.73, i think); Sokrates, in the retreat after Delion, kept his shield and his cool, and scared off pursuing Boiotian cavalry (Plato Symposion); early C5th vases regularly show one on one fighting between aspis fighters; C7th Crete shows weapons captured by individual fighters, presumably in duels (Hoffmann, Cretan armorers); Thucydides (e.g. Book 4, Brasidas' fighting), and Xenophon (Anabasis; also Hellenica) show you hoplites, with aspis, carrying out all kinds of loose formation fighting. Of course, this is not to say that most hoplites or panhoploi fought in serried ranks; just that they were more of all rounders than sometimes admitted. The pyrriche, dance in arms, with its violent shield movements and twists and turns and stamps (very recognizable to anyone who fences), is presumably related to this

Finally, as a past reenactor (I stopped when I got stabbed in the eye with a blunt sword), I can say that double grip shield is no problem for one on one duelling (it's the single grips that are much trickier). Mediaeval guys do double grip shield duelling all the time (say C13th century guys)

FWIW-- and away from our Balearic humeruses.





Ok, come over here and lets try a duel Wink.
I know duelling is possible but in my experience, in order to use the sword effectively the shield has to be held to the side when attacking (or it just gets in the way of any swing or thrust) then moved back to block the counter-attack. This is fine when against an equally armed foe but against a lightly armed and nimble attacker it is sometimes better to chuck the shield aside, sorry, place carefully and reverently on the floor!
Also the size of the Aspis means that in windy conditions it can act a bit like a sail and is best kept tight to the body, not swung about.

Mediaevel shields are generally smaller and the grips are positioned differently.
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Re: Balearic slingers: arms
Reply #19 - Apr 29th, 2009 at 6:07pm
 
Mark: sorry for delay in replying. Will look to see what I have-- but the answer is not very much at the time being. I still recommend Hans van Wees, Greek warfare, myth and realities !
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Re: Balearic slingers: arms
Reply #20 - Apr 30th, 2009 at 12:00am
 
Ok works for me. I was hoping you might have something along those lines on your hard drive.

Marc Adkins

Thearos wrote on Apr 29th, 2009 at 6:07pm:
Mark: sorry for delay in replying. Will look to see what I have-- but the answer is not very much at the time being. I still recommend Hans van Wees, Greek warfare, myth and realities !

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