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Non-Conventional Sling Designs (Read 39892 times)
Morphy
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Re: Non-Conventional Sling Designs
Reply #120 - Nov 27th, 2020 at 8:34am
 
AncientCraftwork wrote on Nov 27th, 2020 at 5:22am:
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Ok ok "J".   Grin Grin Grin

You know you will always be Jauke to me. Nice little upgrade you have there. Would you believe I still haven't tried a y sling? Y you might ask? Because I am lazy. The End.

Are you still improving the design? Mind giving us your thoughts on it as it stands right now?
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TOMBELAINE
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Re: Non-Conventional Sling Designs
Reply #121 - Nov 27th, 2020 at 11:35am
 
Smiley
Very good idea. Interesting.
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AncientCraftwork
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Re: Non-Conventional Sling Designs
Reply #122 - Nov 27th, 2020 at 11:53am
 
Morphy wrote on Nov 27th, 2020 at 8:34am:
AncientCraftwork wrote on Nov 27th, 2020 at 5:22am:
Shocked


Ok ok "J".   Grin Grin Grin

You know you will always be Jauke to me. Nice little upgrade you have there. Would you believe I still haven't tried a y sling? Y you might ask? Because I am lazy. The End.

Are you still improving the design? Mind giving us your thoughts on it as it stands right now?



The Y-sling offers some benefit when throwing bad ammo. Although that is not what this is about. I was interested in the grip style/handle that hammer throwers use, and implementing that into a sling, considering that they sling the heaviest objects (+7kg). naturally this setup works best on a y-sling configuration, because I also tried it on a convential sling, but its awkward. On a plus note, this way you can actually control the pouch orientation on a y-sling too, without having to rely on fin attachmens like Burner and his dad used, because it spreads out the cords (the same reason why we use wide grips on  regular slings). So now you can get a consistent topspin, backspin or sidespin using the y-sling.
I've yet to test it with big rocks in the field, but just swinging it around it already feels like it spreads the load over the hand really comfortably, after all, that's why hammer throwers use it. And the release of the handle out of the hand is not as bad as I expected either.

On a convential sling, you can also have a handle like this, but it has to be on the retention cord (retention toggle). I've also tried the wrist loop many times now for better load distribution on a convential sling, but it gets in the way for my release cord because I like to grip the release cord with my whole hand. I've still got to try the retention toggle thing, on a convential sling. But I fear it will also get in the way of me being able to grab the release cord properly with all of my hand. I don't like just grabbing a knot or tab with just a few fingers. Currently I still just use a fingerloop on the convential sling, and with the full hand grip on the release cord, the load distribution is very good, but not as good as it can possibly get. But figuring this out without it getting in the way of a clean release out of the hand is tricky. We want a good grip on cords but we also don't want the release cord getting snagged and delaying the shot. Currently a grippy but smooth release cord is what I settled on, on my convential slings. The only time I still think that a knot or node on the release cord is justified is when you are using really thin cords, for ultra distance.
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Re: Non-Conventional Sling Designs
Reply #123 - Nov 28th, 2020 at 10:48pm
 
AncientCraftwork wrote on Nov 27th, 2020 at 11:53am:
The Y-sling offers some benefit when throwing bad ammo.

Have you tried a y-sling back to front? I made my current pouch a bit like that and it works well for me
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Morphy
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Re: Non-Conventional Sling Designs
Reply #124 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 3:38am
 
AncientCraftwork wrote on Nov 27th, 2020 at 11:53am:
Morphy wrote on Nov 27th, 2020 at 8:34am:
AncientCraftwork wrote on Nov 27th, 2020 at 5:22am:
Shocked


Ok ok "J".   Grin Grin Grin

You know you will always be Jauke to me. Nice little upgrade you have there. Would you believe I still haven't tried a y sling? Y you might ask? Because I am lazy. The End.

Are you still improving the design? Mind giving us your thoughts on it as it stands right now?



The Y-sling offers some benefit when throwing bad ammo. Although that is not what this is about. I was interested in the grip style/handle that hammer throwers use, and implementing that into a sling, considering that they sling the heaviest objects (+7kg). naturally this setup works best on a y-sling configuration, because I also tried it on a convential sling, but its awkward. On a plus note, this way you can actually control the pouch orientation on a y-sling too, without having to rely on fin attachmens like Burner and his dad used, because it spreads out the cords (the same reason why we use wide grips on  regular slings). So now you can get a consistent topspin, backspin or sidespin using the y-sling.
I've yet to test it with big rocks in the field, but just swinging it around it already feels like it spreads the load over the hand really comfortably, after all, that's why hammer throwers use it. And the release of the handle out of the hand is not as bad as I expected either.

On a convential sling, you can also have a handle like this, but it has to be on the retention cord (retention toggle). I've also tried the wrist loop many times now for better load distribution on a convential sling, but it gets in the way for my release cord because I like to grip the release cord with my whole hand. I've still got to try the retention toggle thing, on a convential sling. But I fear it will also get in the way of me being able to grab the release cord properly with all of my hand. I don't like just grabbing a knot or tab with just a few fingers. Currently I still just use a fingerloop on the convential sling, and with the full hand grip on the release cord, the load distribution is very good, but not as good as it can possibly get. But figuring this out without it getting in the way of a clean release out of the hand is tricky. We want a good grip on cords but we also don't want the release cord getting snagged and delaying the shot. Currently a grippy but smooth release cord is what I settled on, on my convential slings. The only time I still think that a knot or node on the release cord is justified is when you are using really thin cords, for ultra distance.


So you release the whole handle? Any danger of it swinging back at you?
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AncientCraftwork
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Re: Non-Conventional Sling Designs
Reply #125 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 4:26am
 
A y-sling back to front would be somewhat like an assymetric sling pouch I suppose. I like those. But they are no longer a true Y-sling that way, because the Y-sling is intended to dump the shot almost immediately after release, through the release cords, and for that the gap has to be in front.

But I also learned to appreciate traditional cupped pouches. In the past I ranted about cupped sling pouches, but I learned
that the extra internal friction can be very beneficial for those very slippery smooth stones, but also smooth clay, lead and steel ammo.

@Morphy yes, on that setup I posted earlier you release the complete handle. It works on a Y-sling because unlike with a convential sling, there not a lot of pressure on the release cord on release so there is no whip snap force on the end either.
I tested it out with big stones yesterday. it's quite an interesting slinging experience. If it has a usecase, than it is with big stones for sure. You could scale this up and make a hammer-throwing sling. It's not intended to compete with the traditional sling. The nature of a handle release and the pirouette throw is always going to be less accurate than the face-towards-target throw and single cord release.

By the way, I tried out a toggle retention on the convential sling, but I don't like it. It gets in the way of me grabbing my release cord.
The fingerloop configuration still works the best for me, because its outside of the hand, allowing me to to use the inside of my hand to grab the release cord.
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Re: Non-Conventional Sling Designs
Reply #126 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 5:03am
 
AncientCraftwork wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 4:26am:
A y-sling back to front would be somewhat like an assymetric sling pouch I suppose. I like those. But they are no longer a true Y-sling that way, because the Y-sling is intended to dump the shot almost immediately after release, through the release cords, and for that the gap has to be in front.

I see what you mean. Mine isn't designed for anything fancy, just to give me more leeway with ammo.
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Re: Non-Conventional Sling Designs
Reply #127 - Nov 29th, 2020 at 11:54pm
 
@J... if there’s not a lot of pressure, why go with a big handle?  I would think that it’s slower to release because you’re working multiple fingers. Wouldn’t that negate some of the speed advantages of the Y?
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“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
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Re: Non-Conventional Sling Designs
Reply #128 - Nov 30th, 2020 at 4:40am
 
This design is not focused on the Y-sling, it was all about the handle or a loop-release string. The Y-sling was just the best platform to put it on.

The handle (or a loop string release without a handle) is so that you can use different muscle groups, for heavy heavy rocks, using a pirouette throw. Its not really convential slinging.

I meant, there is little pressure on the release cord after one has let go of the handle, because the rock doesn't push against it once the release loop/handle is dropped. And because its centered around using heavy rocks, the release cord never really flies super fast.

It works, it's an interesting experience for slinging heavy rocks using pirouette. Spin angle is not so important in this case. With a handle or loop release it feels like you can put more power into the throw, because of better load distribution linear with the muscles of the forearm.

When you use a bow, you also often use 3 fingers for holding back the string that is under pressure, and then let go.  You don't pull a bow back using just your thumb and index pinching the arrow (the Asiatic thumb grip is different.) That is what inspired me to try something like this out, but also the hammer throwers inspired me.

Keep in mind I am no longer a y-sling advocate as a superior sling. That is why the deleted all those posts, although in hindsight I was not thinking clearly, I was burned out, but I am sorry for all that mess. It was stupid.
But for this particular usecase, the Y-sling platform just fit better.

When I left I wrote about why I liked the Balearic sling better. I still do. I have made about 6 since, 3 and 5 strand from raw yucca I gathered or manilla and sisal fibers I untwined. This design works so well with nearly everything.
Aside from that I also make thin (4mm)  twisted slings using a 2 ply method with a tight, quite small and seperate woven pouch. These have too thin cords just to grab with the hand, so I get by with a double overhand knot on those, and these slings I use for glandes or high velocity small stones. So one sling for the dirty work, and one sling for high velocity and long distances. Both from natural fibres and about a medium 70 cm long.
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Re: Non-Conventional Sling Designs
Reply #129 - Dec 1st, 2020 at 5:52am
 
Burner wrote on Jul 12th, 2009 at 5:27pm:
I successfully built and tested my triggered staff sling today.Currently it is a 24" sling mounted on a 5-10' adjustable fiberglass pole from an old branch trimmer from my bottomless inventory.The hollow pole is approximately 1" diameter for the top half,and the bottom half is about 1 1/4".The sling itself is one of Thomas' non-traditional golf ball slings with an extension of about 9'.I installed an eyelet up top for the release cord to pass through nicely.

   The two throws I attempted were in front of my house,with random cars coming and going.The first one went in the dirt,although the speed at which it came out of the pouch really surprised me.The second throw went a whole city block with a flick of wrist,and landed safely(thank God) in the church soccer field adjacent.

  With some adjustments and a bigger field with no obstructions,I believe I'll be able to throw 700'+(which is my range with a 40" sling).

     Brett

P.S. I'll post pics and videos ASAP


I am kinda surprised that someone on this forum though up the triggered staff sling multiple times. First, more than a decade ago and then it was just forgotten again like some sort of lost ancient advanced technology. 
A quick search shows me that the idea has been thrown around a bit since 2007 without ever reaching a wider audience. Gotta make one myself.
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Re: Non-Conventional Sling Designs
Reply #130 - Dec 1st, 2020 at 6:02am
 
AncientCraftwork wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 4:40am:
This design is not focused on the Y-sling, it was all about the handle or a loop-release string. The Y-sling was just the best platform to put it on.

The handle (or a loop string release without a handle) is so that you can use different muscle groups, for heavy heavy rocks, using a pirouette throw. Its not really convential slinging.

I meant, there is little pressure on the release cord after one has let go of the handle, because the rock doesn't push against it once the release loop/handle is dropped. And because its centered around using heavy rocks, the release cord never really flies super fast.

It works, it's an interesting experience for slinging heavy rocks using pirouette. Spin angle is not so important in this case. With a handle or loop release it feels like you can put more power into the throw, because of better load distribution linear with the muscles of the forearm.

When you use a bow, you also often use 3 fingers for holding back the string that is under pressure, and then let go.  You don't pull a bow back using just your thumb and index pinching the arrow (the Asiatic thumb grip is different.) That is what inspired me to try something like this out, but also the hammer throwers inspired me.

Keep in mind I am no longer a y-sling advocate as a superior sling. That is why the deleted all those posts, although in hindsight I was not thinking clearly, I was burned out, but I am sorry for all that mess. It was stupid.
But for this particular usecase, the Y-sling platform just fit better.

When I left I wrote about why I liked the Balearic sling better. I still do. I have made about 6 since, 3 and 5 strand from raw yucca I gathered or manilla and sisal fibers I untwined. This design works so well with nearly everything.
Aside from that I also make thin (4mm)  twisted slings using a 2 ply method with a tight, quite small and seperate woven pouch. These have too thin cords just to grab with the hand, so I get by with a double overhand knot on those, and these slings I use for glandes or high velocity small stones. So one sling for the dirty work, and one sling for high velocity and long distances. Both from natural fibres and about a medium 70 cm long.


Welcome back Jauke. It's true, you never had to delete anything, you were going through a process and whether the results are positive or negative it's still a useful contribution for the forum. That goes for further experimentation too.

Out of interest- how do you find manila as a sling material? I only know myself and one other who has used it and we have different experiences with it, so interested to hear your take.
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Re: Non-Conventional Sling Designs
Reply #131 - Dec 1st, 2020 at 6:46am
 
I’ll second that. Welcome back Jauke... although I’m not even sure you really left Wink

I find it quite respectable that you are willing to change your opinions even though your original beliefs were held quite strongly. I also respect the fact that you don’t just form opinions, but you also test your theories and do so openly so that we all learn from it.
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“My final hour is at hand. We face an enemy more numerous and cunning than the world has yet seen. Remember your training, and do not fear the hordes of Judas. I, without sin, shall cast the first stone. That will be your sign to attack! But you shall not fight this unholy enemy with stones. No! RAZOR GLANDES!  Aim for the eyes! May the Lord have mercy, for we shall show none!“  -Jesus the Noodler
 
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Re: Non-Conventional Sling Designs
Reply #132 - Dec 1st, 2020 at 3:14pm
 
A few months ago I also made a triggered staff sling using a Y-sling for the sling and a lightweight aluminium pole. It was quite a nice build, but I don't recount talking about it on here. I liked it more than a traditional staff sling. As far as I remember I didn't throw further with it than a hand sling. I've only taken it out once and the stones I had available were not the best. It worked better for me than a normal staff sling. But I still much more prefer the traditional hand sling.

The manilla I have is sold as thick rope. I happen to have a very large spool of it that is about as big as a large microwave.
To make a sling out of it, I cut a section of rope and untwine it into lose fibers. I prefer to work with loose fibers than working with pre-twined rope or cordage. The manilla I have has just a more brown color compared to sisal, and is just a touch softer than sisal. But far from being as soft as hemp or jute.  It is cheaper than sisal too. It's perfectly adequate fibre for slings. I must say the Yucca I have I love the most right now, because I enjoy the process of getting the fibers out of the leaf more than untwining fibers that have been twisted into a rope. Its actually quicker. And the raw Yucca also does not have this stinky factory oils leaked into it. From a job I got some Yucca plants out of someones backyard. I copied Diego Camuñas method with some slight modifications for getting the fibres out. That's much quicker than scraping the greenery off with a spoon or knife. https://www.youtube.com/watch/?hl=ru&v=-ouNR6djZy4

I have used sisal, manilla and yucca fibres together in the same slings interchangeably and they're like twin brothers to each other, it all works. Getting to work with Yucca is a joy, much more than working nettles because you get such a greater yield of fibre. Nettle is probably more suited for bow strings although I would still use it for slings if it was all I could find and gather.

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Re: Non-Conventional Sling Designs
Reply #133 - Dec 5th, 2020 at 5:12pm
 
AncientCraftwork wrote on Dec 1st, 2020 at 3:14pm:
A few months ago I also made a triggered staff sling using a Y-sling for the sling and a lightweight aluminium pole. It was quite a nice build, but I don't recount talking about it on here. I liked it more than a traditional staff sling. As far as I remember I didn't throw further with it than a hand sling. I've only taken it out once and the stones I had available were not the best. It worked better for me than a normal staff sling. But I still much more prefer the traditional hand sling.

I haven't ever wielded a staff sling but that sounds odd.
Searching the archives gives me some conflicting info on whether staff slings throw objects farther.

But they pretty much agree that staffies can throw heavier stones with more force. The last part doesn't make much sense if it can't throw longer.

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Re: Non-Conventional Sling Designs
Reply #134 - Dec 5th, 2020 at 5:49pm
 
Slyngorm wrote on Dec 5th, 2020 at 5:12pm:
AncientCraftwork wrote on Dec 1st, 2020 at 3:14pm:
A few months ago I also made a triggered staff sling using a Y-sling for the sling and a lightweight aluminium pole. It was quite a nice build, but I don't recount talking about it on here. I liked it more than a traditional staff sling. As far as I remember I didn't throw further with it than a hand sling. I've only taken it out once and the stones I had available were not the best. It worked better for me than a normal staff sling. But I still much more prefer the traditional hand sling.

I haven't ever wielded a staff sling but that sounds odd.
Searching the archives gives me some conflicting info on whether staff slings throw objects farther.

But they pretty much agree that staffies can throw heavier stones with more force. The last part doesn't make much sense if it can't throw longer.



I could write you a 2000 word long message delving into this topic and talk theory with you about this all day, but I think it's better you just go out and build a range of staff slings & try them out and then determine for yourself. There's a lot of stuff on this site that will help getting you started.   Wink
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