Welcome, Guest. Please Login
SLINGING.ORG
 
Home Help Search Login


Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print
How many lead glands had a slinger for a battle ? (Read 7450 times)
Alsatian
Descens
***
Offline



Posts: 193
How many lead glands had a slinger for a battle ?
Sep 13th, 2007 at 9:27pm
 
How many lead glands did a slinger carry when he went to a battle ?

As everybody knows who has read a lot of the info on this site the sling was an important  weapon in antiquity. Hannibal used a lot of slingers against the Romans and the Romans also had always slingers in their armies. The Romans even had slingers in their rangs during the Varus battle in northern Germany (where there were only thick forests at this time, so a sling was probably not too usefull). Only a few years ago an Englishman even found the real place of the battle after he first found a slinger lead gland !

For the ones of you who know a bit of history, I have the following question. Each mongolian had to prepare at least 60 arrows before going to a battle. So I was curious if similar information exist about slingers. When the Romans (for example) went to a battle, how many glands did a slinger carry ? What did he do when he had shot them all ? Were there some carts with his army with more ammo ? And what does a typical lead gland weight ?

Thanks for any info !
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Curious Aardvark
Forum Moderation
*****
Offline


Taller than the average
Dwarf

Posts: 13965
Midlands England
Gender: male
Re: How many lead glands had a slinger for a battl
Reply #1 - Sep 14th, 2007 at 12:07am
 
An average glande weighs around 2 oz (some were haevier, some possibly lighter, but not by much) - or 8 to the pound.
So given a sensible amount to carry in a pouch/bag would be around 10 pounds. Say 80 on their person.
Given that slingers were often positioned behind the regular lines - it's a safe bet that there would have been wagons carrying extra sling ammo. Also their would definitely have been runners to replenish any used ammo (same goes for arrows).

Basically the answer is that a slinger would have as much ammo as possible :-)
Back to top
 

Do All things with Honour and Generosity: Regret Nothing, Envy None, Apologise Seldom and Bow your head to No One  - works for me Smiley
 
IP Logged
 
Mordechaj
Funditor
****
Offline


I love Slinging.org!

Posts: 576
zagreb, croatia (europe)
Gender: male
Re: How many lead glands had a slinger for a battl
Reply #2 - Sep 15th, 2007 at 6:09pm
 
sometime they didn't carry finished ammo around, but bricks of lead instead.

glans were dug out that had nail marks on them because roman legionares poured molten lead into hastly made holes in wet sand - wich they made with their fingers. (it was somewhere aroung hadrian's wall, IIRC)
Back to top
 

- resistance is NOT futile -
 
IP Logged
 
sv
Funditor
****
Offline



Posts: 764
ireland
Re: How many lead glands had a slinger for a battl
Reply #3 - Sep 16th, 2007 at 7:00pm
 
a soldier - from whatever era - carries about 30 kg of kit. or 70lbs if you wish. this is as true today as it was in antiquity, because that's more or less all that a man can carry and still fight. i wouldn't suggest that a slinger could shoot 30kg of lead in a battle, but as a soldier he would still have to carry his sleeping bag, mess kit, cooking equipment, rations, possibly some sticks for a pallisade, pick axe or shovel, all or part of a tent, weapon, ammunition (or lead ingots) spare clothes socks and so forth. the fact of his weapon being light would allow him to carry more stuff in his kit.
so i wopuld guess that a slinger would carry the weight of his essentials, plus the weight of ammo or lead, which would bring him up to around 30kg. no bow, shield or armour would mean more glandes

SV            
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
slingbadger
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


Don't Badger a Badger

Posts: 3229
Akron NY
Gender: male
Re: How many lead glands had a slinger for a battl
Reply #4 - Sep 17th, 2007 at 10:41am
 
slingers often had a shoulder bag called a marsupian. This would be full of shot, so it depended on the size of the bag.
  Also, evidence shows that glandes were made right on the spot, often. Many still have the seams and the sprue on them from the casting.
Back to top
 

The greatest of all the accomplishments of 20th cent. science has been the discovery of human ignorance  The main difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's limits.-Einstein   I'm getting psychic as I get older. Or is that psychotic?
 
IP Logged
 
sv
Funditor
****
Offline



Posts: 764
ireland
Re: How many lead glands had a slinger for a battl
Reply #5 - Sep 17th, 2007 at 7:19pm
 
someone had to carry the lead, iron pots, and fire-making kit - this could be carried on mules or wagons, and the ammunition was made on the spot. the question is, why?  no-one else using lead ammunition (musketeers, or even modern armies) cast their bullets on the spot - so why did the ancients?
maybe lead was too expensive and deadly to hand out as sling bullets, in case of desertion, and was cast on the day, and given to soldiers under supervision

SV
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Dravonk
Funditor
****
Offline



Posts: 773
Aachen, Germany
Gender: male
Re: How many lead glands had a slinger for a battl
Reply #6 - Sep 18th, 2007 at 7:09am
 
Somewhere I have read that other items made of lead were plundered by the soldiers and molten to bullets. So maybe the improvised bullets were made after all the prepared bullets were spent.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Alsatian
Descens
***
Offline



Posts: 193
Re: How many lead glands had a slinger for a battl
Reply #7 - Sep 20th, 2007 at 10:00pm
 
Yes, I know that lead glands where often moulded „on demand". That means when the soldiers knew there would be some clashes or a battle in the next hours or the next day. Probably it was simply easier to carry blocks of leads than a lot of little glands. A little gland would much easier fall from a waggon.

A Mongolian soldier had to prepare at least 60 arrows before any military expedition. If such an arrow weights 50g (the arrows of english longbows had a similar weight), 60 arrows weight 3kg. That is not so much and theoretically he did not even have to carry them himself as he was on a horse. On the other hand, the slinger is walking on his feet, a gland (or stone) is probably heavier than 50g and as the slinger makes more dynamic movements than a bowmen, a lot of weight hanging on his bodyside (whereas the arrows are on the back) would hinder him much more. So my thought was that in a battle a slinger would not have so much ammo with him. 60glands of 100g makes 6 kilos. When I go to slinging I usually carry a bucket with 40 plastic balls filled with sand, weighting 170g each. This gives „only" 6.8kg, say 7kg with the bucket. I could never sling with this weight hanging on my body ! It is really a lot. Perhaps the romans also used buckets... Wink I think that 3 to 4 kg of ammo is the upper limit. This is 60 very light bullets or 30x100g bullets. Probably a 50g lead gland is much deadlier than a 50g stone, so they could still carry a lot of ammo when using lead glands. That is why I wanted to know what a typical gland weights.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Dravonk
Funditor
****
Offline



Posts: 773
Aachen, Germany
Gender: male
Re: How many lead glands had a slinger for a battl
Reply #8 - Sep 21st, 2007 at 3:14am
 
Alsatian wrote on Sep 20th, 2007 at 10:00pm:
Probably it was simply easier to carry blocks of leads than a lot of little glands.

I remember that there was one text where the author said that lead glands would deform when resting against each other. The author recommended to drop the hot glands into cold water directly after getting them out of the mold. But is it really possible to harden lead?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Dave M
Descens
***
Offline


Slinging Rocks at seagulls

Posts: 239
Littlehampton West Sussex Eng
Gender: male
Re: How many lead glands had a slinger for a battl
Reply #9 - Sep 21st, 2007 at 5:40am
 
Not sure on my facts on this one but didnt they use shot towers to make lead shot in 17th or 18 th century used by pouring molten lead through holes in the top of a tower into water a long way below.
could this also have hardened the lead as it cooled quickly on hitting the water, dont know if you can harden lead is the answer, should know Iv'e been an engineer all my life.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Aussie
Past Moderator
*
Offline


Joined Nov. 1, 2006  Luke
14:14

Posts: 3265
Melbourne, Australia
Gender: male
Re: How many lead glands had a slinger for a battl
Reply #10 - Sep 21st, 2007 at 8:41am
 
As far as I know lead shot is still made that way ie. in a tower. The lead actually solidifies whilst still in the air and the water is only a cushion to stop it deforming when it hits the bottom. Pure lead can't be hardened in the same way as steel but it can be alloyed with tin and antimony to make it harder. But tower shot is small, anything big enough for slinging would have to be cast.
Back to top
 

Cranks are little things that make revolutions.&&
 
IP Logged
 
Mr.Joel
Junior Member
**
Offline


Molon Labe

Posts: 69
Jeddah, Saudi Arabia
Gender: male
Re: How many lead glands had a slinger for a battl
Reply #11 - Sep 21st, 2007 at 9:37am
 
I remember reading in a guns and ammo casting article that pure lead can indeed be hardened by water. The bullets were heated in a separate operation, just below their melting point, and dropped into water. The tempering apparently exceeds linotype in hardness, however: the effect will reverse itself in a matter of weeks rendering the bullets softer than the original metal.
Back to top
 

knock yourself out, tosser
 
IP Logged
 
Mr.Joel
Junior Member
**
Offline


Molon Labe

Posts: 69
Jeddah, Saudi Arabia
Gender: male
Re: How many lead glands had a slinger for a battl
Reply #12 - Sep 21st, 2007 at 9:56am
 
The best way to harden lead is to alloy it. Tin(will toughen) and antimony(will harden) are the two other metals required. wheelweight metal has both, but the antimony content is small, and most of it will probably be fluxed out unless you buy special flux, and cast at a very high casting temperature.  I highly recommend a rowell ladle for casting, in size 2 or 3 for casting your glands. You can find all of these things at www.theantimonyman.com
Back to top
 

knock yourself out, tosser
 
IP Logged
 
DesertPilot
Descens
***
Offline


Oops!

Posts: 150
Mountain View, CA
Gender: male
Re: How many lead glands had a slinger for a battl
Reply #13 - Sep 22nd, 2007 at 5:08am
 
I just had to give it a try.  Slinging with a 10lb satchel (4.5kg, or approximately 45 100gm lead glands?) slung over one shoulder was no big deal.  Even a 20lb satchel didn't seem out of the question for a simple helicopter/overhead throw.

Shields were another matter.  Slinging with a 10lb shield on my left arm was pretty hopeless -- much harder than swinging a broadsword -- though I imagine it's a skill that could be learned with practice.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Norseman
Novicius
*
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 6
Re: How many lead glands had a slinger for a battl
Reply #14 - Oct 6th, 2007 at 8:34am
 
DesertPilot wrote on Sep 22nd, 2007 at 5:08am:
I just had to give it a try.  Slinging with a 10lb satchel (4.5kg, or approximately 45 100gm lead glands?) slung over one shoulder was no big deal.  Even a 20lb satchel didn't seem out of the question for a simple helicopter/overhead throw.

Shields were another matter.  Slinging with a 10lb shield on my left arm was pretty hopeless -- much harder than swinging a broadsword -- though I imagine it's a skill that could be learned with practice.


This may be replying to a slightly old post, but I have to comment that you could just put the shield down. I don't remember what the word was, but many soldiers in the days when shields were carried had a shield holder or shield support. Basically this was a simply device that kept the shield upright, and easy to reach, so you could put it down but get it at a moments notice.

IMHO using one of these makes more sense than trying to learn how to use a sling with a shield. Especially since I haven't seen any period depiction of a slinger carrying a shield while loosing a slingshot. Though if anyone has please let me know.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print
(Moderators: Morphy, Curious Aardvark, Kick, joe_meadmaker, Chris, Rat Man, vetryan15)