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Is it real? David and Goliath (Read 125001 times)
OrangeDuck
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #210 - Oct 26th, 2007 at 7:06pm
 
Well here is a link outlining the topic, it's an article by Times; http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,133539,00.htm

And yes, many parts of the Bible are true. There is historical evidence in Roman records that Jesus existed, and that the characters around him existed. There have been accounts of things like battles similar to accounts gathered from other sources. We know for a fact that the Jews werre indeed enslaved, and did escape. Now this is the point of contention. Did God really appear to Moses through a burning bush? That can never be proved by theologists, or disproved by scientists, because neither agrees with the other's methods.
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #211 - Oct 27th, 2007 at 11:00am
 
Quote:
the bible is scientificly acurate in all it says


the ancient greeks knew a lot about astronomy, did God tell them, or did they use their intelligence to develop the maths and discover the facts? saying that the earth is "round" is hardly proof of a divine presence. in any case it's a flattened sphere, not round.  "Job" is a book in which God makes a bet with Satan to see if Job will renounce God, and is not a book about science in any shape or form.

Quote:
here is historical evidence in Roman records that Jesus existed


here are NO roman records, or comtemporary records, which mention Jesus himself.
yes, there are Roman records and artifacts which prove that early Christians existed, but the only written record by an actual Christian is that of Paul, who was converted to christianity after the death of jesus. he did not see Jesus, but was converted to the Christian religion. paul knew Christians existed, and he came to believe in their message, but that is no different than anyone who becomes a Chrisitan today. he did not actually see Jesus

this doesn't prove that JC did or did not exist, it just means that there is no corroborating evidence as yet.
 
Quote:
Did God really appear to Moses through a burning bush? That can never be proved by theologists, or disproved by scientists, because neither agrees with the other's methods.


agreed - the spiritual "truths" are not verifiable by science.    

Quote:
the characters around him existed.


Qirinius is mentioned in Luke, but he was not (according to Roman records) contemporaneous with the census, which Luke says was carried out under his authority. but it would be remarkable if there was nothing in the historical background of the Bible which wasn't actual fact, such as the slavery of the hebrews

the point remains that there is no story or account of any individual or event (prior to st Paul) which can be verified by any other source.

SV
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #212 - Oct 27th, 2007 at 11:03am
 
OrangeDuck, that  link was very interesting, thanks for posting  Smiley

SV
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #213 - Oct 27th, 2007 at 10:53pm
 
OrangeDuck wrote on Oct 26th, 2007 at 7:06pm:
Well here is a link outlining the topic, it's an article by Times; http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,133539,00.htm

And yes, many parts of the Bible are true. There is historical evidence in Roman records that Jesus existed, and that the characters around him existed. There have been accounts of things like battles similar to accounts gathered from other sources. We know for a fact that the Jews werre indeed enslaved, and did escape. Now this is the point of contention. Did God really appear to Moses through a burning bush? That can never be proved by theologists, or disproved by scientists, because neither agrees with the other's methods.

very interesting, you obviously have some belief that the bible has some historical values, (most people do you know)
look at it this way, because the boy cried wolf three times and their wasn't a wolf any of those times, the workers where quete sure their wasnt one when their was one because he was not trustable, however if their was a wolf all of those times the workers would've come and killed the wolf, because they could trust him. (that's only an exaple, but i think it's a good one.)
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Şær wæron ongemang eallra şisra rinca seofone hund manna şa şe wæron wineserhande, şara ælc cuğe weorpan stan mid liğere and ne misweorpan. &&&&16 ferses 20 heafodwearde Demena bec. (Judges 20:16)
 
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Lasse C
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #214 - Oct 29th, 2007 at 6:41am
 
All this evolution contra creationist stuff  may be interesting to some - but I do feel it has a somewhat limited relevance to the original question if the story about David & Goliath can be taken as an account of an actual event.

My opinion about David & Goliath stands: It may have happened more or less as described, but -
A) I find it very unlikely that Goliath was 9 feet tall. Not impossible, just unlikely. (Why is just that detail such an issue, anyway? Roll Eyes)

B) If it was true event, it was most definitely
not
a miracle. If the important point on the agenda for that day was Goliath´s  demise, God could take an extended lunch and 18 holes at the golf course once David had decided to use his sling... From that moment Goliath was in reality dead - it just took some time for the news to reach him.

C) The similarity to many other myths from that area and period of time does indicate that on the other hand it may be just literary fiction. (It is interesting to compare with medieval accounts of the acts of saints. Provided these stories are to be considered as true as they are claimed to be, a surprising number of saints seem to have performed the very same set of miracles - in the very same way...   ...)

As for the bible being true or not, I will not involve myself in that discussion to any depth. (I´ve done my share of that  pseudo-debate, thankyouverymuch) Of course there are details in the bible that can be proven to be historically correct - and some of them have been! What of it? Anything else would be most surprising! However, to draw the conclusion that because some details can be proven to be true, all of the bible - every little detail - also must be absolutely true is something entirely different. To me, drawing such a conclusion indicates such a massive lack of critical thinking and logical reasoning that I many years ago decided to avoid going into that debate.


Lasse C

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« Last Edit: Oct 30th, 2007 at 7:44am by Lasse C »  
 
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axon50
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #215 - Oct 30th, 2007 at 1:13am
 
interesting opinion, i don't expect you to reply to this but........ it never says that david killed goliath with the sling, in fact it indicates that he only knocked him out (did i say "only"), because after knocking him down he proceded to cut of goliaths head (why would he do that if goliath realy was dead?) it might have been a point of honour, cutting of a vanquished enimies head, but personally i think he did it to kill him.
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Şær wæron ongemang eallra şisra rinca seofone hund manna şa şe wæron wineserhande, şara ælc cuğe weorpan stan mid liğere and ne misweorpan. &&&&16 ferses 20 heafodwearde Demena bec. (Judges 20:16)
 
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axon50
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #216 - Oct 30th, 2007 at 1:15am
 
oh and yes, i am finding it very tiring defending this story so it would be nice if none replied, although i will probably answer if someone does reply.
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Şær wæron ongemang eallra şisra rinca seofone hund manna şa şe wæron wineserhande, şara ælc cuğe weorpan stan mid liğere and ne misweorpan. &&&&16 ferses 20 heafodwearde Demena bec. (Judges 20:16)
 
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Lasse C
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #217 - Oct 30th, 2007 at 2:37am
 
axon50 wrote on Oct 30th, 2007 at 1:15am:
oh and yes, i am finding it very tiring defending this story

Why go on "defending" it? There is nothing to "defend", really!

I´d say everyone on this forum knows very well that David was perfectly able to kill or stun Goliath with a shot from his sling. Piece of cake, really! The story can very well be real. The described event is possible.

In my opinion, the point to be debated is that many Christians make such a great fuss about it, calling it a "miracle" and "Act Of God" - which only shows that they don´t know what a skilled slinger is capable of. If there is a God, and if said God saw it necessary to intervene on David´s behalf, all that was really needed was a little whisper in David´s ear, saying: "Hey, man, use your sling! That´s what you´re good at, you know!"

I´m really quite unable to understand why so many Christians seem to demand that God must make a personal appearence everywhere, everytime and for every little thing! To me it is really not a sign of respect towards their God if they think him so unable to create the world in such a way that things (at least for most of the time) work as intended by themselves. Nope, instead they demand their God to run around all the time, tweaking and twiddling on every little thing in creation, like some not-so-competent mechanic keeping an old run-down machine (more or less) working. In my eyes that means they consider their God to be both clumsy and… well… not that smart. Not to mention that they seem to think their God should come running as soon as they snap their fingers! That sure ain´t respect and reverence, if you ask me! ...

Lasse
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« Last Edit: Oct 30th, 2007 at 11:54am by Lasse C »  
 
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axon50
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #218 - Oct 31st, 2007 at 10:29pm
 
oh flip why doesn't anyone who wants to acuse the bible go and read the entire bible before they say stuff they've indirectly heard of or read! Wink i mean the entire bible. i greatly doubt anyone will take up my challenge, and i believe what christians believe god helped david with, was bravery, (how many fifteen year olds do you know that would fight a 9 foot giant wearing full armor and using a very heavy and powerful weapon, makes sense really.)
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Şær wæron ongemang eallra şisra rinca seofone hund manna şa şe wæron wineserhande, şara ælc cuğe weorpan stan mid liğere and ne misweorpan. &&&&16 ferses 20 heafodwearde Demena bec. (Judges 20:16)
 
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #219 - Nov 1st, 2007 at 1:18am
 
axon50 wrote on Oct 31st, 2007 at 10:29pm:
oh flip why doesn't anyone who wants to acuse the bible go and read the entire bible before they say stuff they've indirectly heard of or read! Wink

Ah, the naivity of youth Smiley  What makes you so quick to assume that other people haven't read it?  Cover to cover.  Several times.  Including bits like Leviticus, Kings, and the nasty parts of Timothy I and II that most bible study groups skip.  In the interests of fairness, I also made my way through the Zend Avesta of Zoroaster, the Koran, various Christian apocrypha, the Bhagavad Gita, the Book of Mormon, the Tibetan and Egyptian books of the Dead, the Tao Te Ching, any number of sutras, and some ancient Summerian religious texts.  It was an eye-opening experience, that I can heartily recommend to anyone with an open mind and too much time on their hands.

Like all human creations, these different scriptures each have their strengths and weakness, good bits and bad bits, parts so beautiful that they seem almost divine, and parts so silly that one cannot help but wonder about the deities that inspired them.  Ancient Greek religious tradition had the best beach parties, the Summerians were the most unnerving, and as J. Robert Oppenheimer pointed out in 1945, the Bhagavad Gita has the all-time best quote for use during nuclear weapons tests.   But as far as I know, the Old Testament is the only holy book that mentions slings.  Which are less expensive than nuclear weapons, and considerably more fun!

Getting back to David vs Goliath, the standard overhand throw from a sling is a lot like the standard head shot with a broadsword.  Back when I was in the SCA, the best sword-and-shield fighters seemed to win approximately 10% of their fights with a single blow.  Extrapolating this to slings, and assuming that Goliath knew how to block, this suggests that with any given shot,  David might have had a 10% chance of taking out his opponent and a 90% chance of watching the shot bounce off his opponent's shield.

This means that if David stood his ground while Goliath rushed him, he might have a 90% chance of getting creamed.  (Whoosh!  Thippity.   "Bugger."  "Ho ho!"  JAB!  Die.  Et cetera).  But if he carried five stones, as some posts to this thread suggest, and never allowed Goliath to close within spear thrusting range, the mathematics of probability gives him at least a 41% chance of taking the big guy out -- more if Goliath's shield arm gets tired.  Those aren't great odds, but they aren't that bad either.  If you were a poor shepherd, doomed to a life of poverty, would you wager that life on 40/60 odds if you could claim the kingdom as a reward for victory?  You might.  It's a tough call, isn't it?

Of course, this means that God's advice to David might well have been, "Run, Luke, run!  Oops, sorry, wrong movie.Smiley
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #220 - Nov 1st, 2007 at 2:20am
 
i didn't read all that..... but i did get you read the bible (most of it anyway, i think you said all of it) and a whole bunch of dogy books like the book of mormon (the person who came up with that idea got killed in a gun fight because he had so many enimies, so much for a blessed man of god.)
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Şær wæron ongemang eallra şisra rinca seofone hund manna şa şe wæron wineserhande, şara ælc cuğe weorpan stan mid liğere and ne misweorpan. &&&&16 ferses 20 heafodwearde Demena bec. (Judges 20:16)
 
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #221 - Nov 1st, 2007 at 8:07am
 
axon50 wrote on Nov 1st, 2007 at 2:20am:
i didn't read all that..... but i did get you read the bible (most of it anyway, i think you said all of it) and a whole bunch of dogy books like the book of mormon (the person who came up with that idea got killed in a gun fight because he had so many enimies, so much for a blessed man of god.)

I haven't read the Book of Mormon, but how many enemies did Jesus have? How did he die? "So much for a blessed man of god" to cite you. A blessed person can have a lot of enemies, though not every person who has a lot of enemies is blessed.
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #222 - Nov 1st, 2007 at 9:05am
 
axon50 wrote on Oct 31st, 2007 at 10:29pm:
oh flip why doesn't anyone who wants to acuse the bible go and read the entire bible before they say stuff they've indirectly heard of or read! Wink i mean the entire bible.


Ahemm…
I strongly suggest you begin by finding out just how much the person you oppose have read from the bible. Assuming/implying that your opponent has not read "enough" of the bible to be able to discuss properly it is not only a very poor argument rhetorically, it is also an argument that can strike back viciously at yourself if you use it against the wrong person.

I am very likely to have read at least as much of the bible as you – possibly more, I´m a systematic person. Like DesertPilot I have also read apochrypha (which I have to say I doubt you have), and more than a few scriptures from other religions.

However, I find it a little hard to understand what point you are trying to make. To me it sounds as if you claim that if parts of the bible can be proven to be historically/scientifically true, then ALL of the bible has to be true. If so, on what do you base this? The logic in such a conclusion has holes you can fly a 747 through. There are historically/scientifically true parts in the comic books about Superman, too – but that does not make them true or Superman exist.  Roll Eyes

Anyway, please do not make the mistake of brushing me off because you believe I have not read “enough” of the bible. I´m what is sometimes called a renegade, an ex-Christian. I´ve read it.  Wink

Lasse C

Oh, just a footnote: I have not read all the “begat-lists”. You know, the “Solomon begat Rehoboam. Rehoboam begat Abijah, Abijah begat Hobnob, Hobnob begat Mumbletypeg, Mumbletypeg begat Rumplestiltskin, Rumplestiltskin begat Gibberish...” and so on. I skipped those.
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #223 - Nov 1st, 2007 at 12:10pm
 
axon50 wrote on Nov 1st, 2007 at 2:20am:
i didn't read all that..... but i did get you read the bible (most of it anyway, i think you said all of it) and a whole bunch of dogy books like the book of mormon (the person who came up with that idea got killed in a gun fight because he had so many enimies, so much for a blessed man of god.)


Hmm.. no.. not much sign of an open mind there Wink. Why do you regard the book of Mormon that way? Because your Sunday School teacher tells you so? You might gain much from reading such as the Bhagavad Gita ( Sanskrit not obligatory Wink ) and many other texts from faiths other than your own. You have been given a brain, why not use it?

The original topic was the matter of whether people believe that Goliath could have been defeated by David. I think the general sense is that purely on grounds of raw mechanics it was possible to deliver a fatal or near-fatal blow, without the intervention of a supreme being to render the sling somehow more potent. This does not deny the existence of such a being. This may be at variance with the version generally taught in Sunday School - yes! I remember! - where perhaps the teacher implies that the sling would not have that power without 'something extra'. This latter view comes from a general ignorance of the lethality of the sling.

What you are left with is the matter of a boy's courage in the face of an intimidating enemy. His faith and belief come in at this point, and the story is no less powerful IMHO for that. I believe that was the intent of scripture when it was written, when people would surely have been far more aware of the potential of the sling.
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #224 - Nov 1st, 2007 at 4:15pm
 
In my opinion all of the stories of the Bible are true. That is what I believe and that is all we are really debating here, what each of us believe, because neither side can be factually proven or disproven. I believe that God controls all things and it was His will for David to be victorious. Some believe it would have been easy for David to slay Goliath without God being involved and others think it to be impossible with or without God. Whether it occured or not is merely a subjective question. A better question may be: Do you believe the story of David and Goliath occured? Why or why not? Because no one can "prove" it is real or it is not.  I do believe it occured and here is why. I believe it occurred because I believe the Bible. I believe the Bible because I am educated in it as well as the alternatives. "Logical" people discredit the Bible because it is "not possible" but many of them either believe in other equally "impossible" teachings or merely theoretical teachings. I have witnessed (and this is not evidence but understanding) the change in people's lives once they devote themselves and I mean truly devote themselves to Christ and it just so happens I am one of those people. I believe that anything true or worthy stands the test of time. I am not talking about thousands of years as the Bible has but I mean within my own life time. No, I am not and do not claim to be a perfect person, everyone has their faults and there was only one true Christian and that was Jesus. The rest of us only try to be Christians.
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