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Is it real? David and Goliath (Read 125086 times)
Dravonk
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #180 - Aug 12th, 2007 at 10:41am
 
This is also quite interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goliath#Textual_variations

There seem to be older versions of the story where the height is "just" six feet and six inches (198 cm).

Stoner wrote on Aug 12th, 2007 at 9:21am:
So Goliath never existed, eh? Because no man could ever be just about 9 feet, right?

His existance was not in doubt, only his height.

Quote:
Mr. Wadlow was fully functional when he lived.

"When he lived". He died with 22.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Wadlow
It doesn't sound like he was too healthy. But of course there is no report in the bible of how old Goliath was at the time of the battle. Goliath might have been 17 himself so the negative consequences didn't kick in yet. But as older texts report a more realistic height, that is easier for me to believe.
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Dale
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #181 - Aug 12th, 2007 at 12:26pm
 
I have said this before, but it bears saying again.  The height of Goliath is recorded as being "six cubits and a span".  A span is half a cubit; a cubit is the length from the elbow to the tip of the middle finger.  The standard of measure was the King.

Given that the cubit was defined in terms of the human body, it might be better to ignore the modern definition of a cubit (eighteen inches) and just say that Goliath stood between half again and twice the height of an normal man.  If men were typically around five feet tall, that's three cubits and not quite a span, which makes Goliath twice as tall; if men were closer to six feet, that's four cubits and Goliath is closer to half again as tall.

I know that it is commonly believed that people are getting larger over time.  This is based on measurements of medieval armor from Europe, which shows that the wearers were barely five feet tall.  However, I believe it is more a matter of nutrition than "evolution" (whatever that is) and so it is quite possible that the men of Israel were taller than the ill-nourished Europeans of a few centuries ago.
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Dravonk
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #182 - Aug 12th, 2007 at 2:14pm
 
Dale wrote on Aug 12th, 2007 at 12:26pm:
I have said this before, but it bears saying again.  The height of Goliath is recorded as being "six cubits and a span".  A span is half a cubit; a cubit is the length from the elbow to the tip of the middle finger.  The standard of measure was the King.

Well, according to the Wikipedia article I mentioned the height of Goliath was also given as four cubits and a span:
Quote:
There are significant differences between the Masoretic (Hebrew), Septuagint (Greek), and Dead Sea Scrolls versions of 1 Samuel 17.[3] One of the most interesting of these relates to Goliath's height: 4QSam(a), the Dead Sea Scrolls text of Samuel, gives the height of Goliath as "four cubits and a span," (about six feet six inches), and this is what the original Septuagint and the 1st century CE historian Josephus also record. Later Septuagint manuscripts read "six cubits and a span," about nine feet six inches.[4]


Dale wrote on Aug 12th, 2007 at 12:26pm:
I know that it is commonly believed that people are getting larger over time.  This is based on measurements of medieval armor from Europe, which shows that the wearers were barely five feet tall.  However, I believe it is more a matter of nutrition than "evolution" (whatever that is) and so it is quite possible that the men of Israel were taller than the ill-nourished Europeans of a few centuries ago.

True, I think I have read somewhere that the hunters and gatherers in Europe were taller than the later medieval humans.
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Curious Aardvark
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #183 - Aug 13th, 2007 at 12:47pm
 
[quote]This is based on measurements of medieval armor from Europe[/quote]
And just about any measurement of clothe and dwellings anywhere in the world - also on the fact that surviving primitive cultures are generally shortarses (africans tend to be the exception.)

As for people 9 feet tall - yep there is a bloke who has a pituitary gland malfunction. He was last measured in 2006 (one article I read said he was measured in 2004) at 8 feet 5 inches and has probably grown since then. But he doesn't like being measured and it's not like you're going to make him do something he doesn't want to do easily :-) 
[url]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/08/09/wtallest109.xml[/url]
But it's a good bet that when he dies he'll probbaly be taller than robert walpole.

But given that most ancient societies were considerably shorter than modern western type societies then anything much over six feet or approaching 7 feet would definitely have classed as giant. Particularly if they were proportionally wide as well as tall. Tall skinny people just don't look threatening :-)
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Lasse C
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #184 - Aug 17th, 2007 at 3:20pm
 
Stoner wrote on Aug 12th, 2007 at 9:21am:
the Tallest Man ever, Robert Wadlow, stood at a staggering 2.72 m (8 ft 11.1 in).  
Yep. But you wrote "tallest man alive", which according to the info I could dig up is something else. Please re-read what you wrote. If anything, I think Robert Wadlow rather proves my point that people nine feet tall are extremely rare. (And according to pictures Robert Wadlow did not look very intimidating...)

Stoner wrote on Aug 12th, 2007 at 9:21am:
So Goliath never existed, eh? Because no man could ever be just about 9 feet, right?
Nope, I never claimed that. I do not question Goliath´s existence - just his height. Again: Please go back and re-read.

Stoner wrote on Aug 12th, 2007 at 9:21am:
Oh, and first you said 7 feet was 237 cm, but it's really 213.
Ahemmm... as far as I can see, I claim 7 ft and 9 inches is 237 cm - which it is. 7 feet is still 213 cm. Please go back and re-read. Again... Wink

Stoner wrote on Aug 12th, 2007 at 9:21am:
There are THOUSANDS of people in finland who are 210 cm. NOTHING UNUSUAL!
And, pray tell me, in what what way is the number of tall people in Finland of today relevant to the discussion about Goliath´s height in Palestine thousands of years ago?  Roll Eyes (Even if I did consider it relevant, I would still like to see some statistics to back that up)

I must say you seem to read rather carelessly before you answer. I also think you should consider your attitude. There is really no need to attack in the way you do. (To quote the "Godfather": "What have I ever done to you to make you treat me this disrespectfully?") If this is how you conduct a discussion, you will get no further response from me.

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« Last Edit: Aug 18th, 2007 at 12:50am by Lasse C »  
 
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #185 - Sep 26th, 2007 at 6:59pm
 
Loki wrote on Jul 18th, 2006 at 3:47pm:
I almost forgot to say something. The Bible was written by men, just like all holy text, and the bottom line is that men are inherently flawed and fallible.

Loki




bamaham93; written by men inspired by God.  Lips Sealed
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Lasse C
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #186 - Sep 29th, 2007 at 3:03pm
 
bamaham93 wrote on Sep 26th, 2007 at 6:59pm:
written by men inspired by God.  Lips Sealed


Yeah, so they keep telling me...
But for some reason, I feel that some of those guys weren´t always paying all that much attention... And after that the text was translated, and re-translated, and re-translated...  Roll Eyes

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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #187 - Sep 30th, 2007 at 11:44am
 
that's why the muslims keep the koran in the original arabic - it was a direct recitation of the words of the archangel gabriel, and thus beyond criticism, or so the muslims claim - whether this is true or not, the koran hasn't lost anything in translation

SV
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #188 - Sep 30th, 2007 at 11:57am
 
sv wrote on Sep 30th, 2007 at 11:44am:
that's why the muslims keep the koran in the original arabic - it was a direct recitation of the words of the archangel gabriel, and thus beyond criticism, or so the muslims claim - whether this is true or not, the koran hasn't lost anything in translation

SV


So maybe we can get a slinger who speaks original arabic (or any muslim slingers) to find out what the Qur'an has to say about it.

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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #189 - Oct 1st, 2007 at 12:02am
 
The Muslims had a good idea, but like many traditional religions, they didn't account for the effects of evolution.  No one has any real idea what the Arabic of Mohammed's day means any more.  In the 1500 years since the Prophet wrote his epic poem, words, grammar, societial context, and human nature itself have changed beyond recognition.  For what it's worth, I just flipped through my English translation of the thing, and I couldn't find any reference to Davy and the Big G.  No help there.  Alas...
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #190 - Oct 1st, 2007 at 12:08am
 
DesertPilot wrote on Oct 1st, 2007 at 12:02am:
The Muslims had a good idea, but like many traditional religions, they didn't account for the effects of evolution.  No one has any real idea what the Arabic of Mohammed's day means any more.  In the 1500 years since the Prophet wrote his epic poem, words, grammar, societial context, and human nature itself have changed beyond recognition.  For what it's worth, I just flipped through my English translation of the thing, and I couldn't find any reference to Davy and the Big G.  No help there.  Alas...


Well, for what it's worth, Wikipedia claims the Qur'an mentions David and Goliath in Surah 2 246-248 and Surah 2 249-251. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Similarities_between_the_Bible_and_the_Qur%27an

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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #191 - Oct 1st, 2007 at 5:13am
 
Loki wrote on Jul 18th, 2006 at 3:47pm:
I almost forgot to say something. The Bible was written by men, just like all holy text, and the bottom line is that men are inherently flawed and fallible.

Loki


Very true.  I suspect it really happened but doubt that Goliath was nine cubits tal (or whatever).  Let us just say he was a big fighting man.  Also, the Phillistines were an Iron Age culture, whereas the Isralis were still stuck in the Bonze Age.  If you read your scripture closely, you'll learn that after the David and Goliath encounter, the Israelites captured the iron makers from the Philistines and became an Iron Age culture.  This let them smite betwen the fourth and fith rib much more effectively.

They smote everything quite well until it came to the Romans, eho were only taken by surprise and usually responded with "peace through superior firepower."   You can take that as a definition of "Pas Romana."  

The Israleites learned a lot from the Philistines.   From metal working to agriculture.

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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #192 - Oct 1st, 2007 at 5:17am
 
Hey, Loki!

Why did you quit being the Angel of Death?  We haven't had a good one since you quit.

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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #193 - Oct 1st, 2007 at 11:24am
 
OrangeDuck wrote on Oct 1st, 2007 at 12:08am:
Well, for what it's worth, Wikipedia claims the Qur'an mentions David and Goliath in Surah 2 246-248 and Surah 2 249-251. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Similarities_between_the_Bible_and_the_Qur%27an


Thanks, OrangeDuck.  I never would have spotted that on my own.  It doesn't look too promising though -- in my copy of the J. M. Rodwell translation of the Koran, it looks more like a quick two-sentence summary of the Old Testament story than an independent chronical.  I guess we do need an Arabic scholar here.
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #194 - Oct 3rd, 2007 at 8:09pm
 
Does anybody have access to a copy of the Torah?  Considering the great pains the Jewish people take in making certain every new edition is an exact duplicate of the earliest, some info might be gathered there.

I have several different translations of the Christian Bible and they all agree that David took Goliath in the first round with one punch.  No mention is made of a staff sling or anything other that the implied shepard's sling.  Odd bit is that David wasn't carrying any sling bullets of his own.  Much is made of him picking up "smooth, round river rocks" before cold-cocking Goliath.  


As to the issue of Goliath's heght, as someone else said above, different cultures measured height or length in different ways.  The Romans (Julius Caesar in particular) wrote about the huge Celtic warriors of Brittania and the "giant" people from Germany.  'Course, my Roman ancestors weren't very tall.  Just very disciplined warriors, engineers, and copiers of Greek culture.  The question of Napoleon's height depends on whether it was measured in French or English inches.   Wink

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