Tint wrote on Jun 7^th, 2007 at 2:35am:


David was a shepherd and as such was probably using his sling every day. He was undoubdtedly very good, but probably all shepherds were as good or close to it. What is certain is that he was supremely confident and had deep faith in God. He was also probably very close to Goliath when shooting, just enough to keep out of range of Goliath's javelin.

As far as consistently hitting a human head at 600', that is almost certainly vast exaggeration. There are few riflemen who could do it consistently shooting offhand and even the rifle itself would probably have a greater dispersion than that. Assume a target of 10" diameter to make the math simple. At 200 yds. that means an angle of dipersion of only 5 minutes. With stones and a braided sling?

Yurek posted an article some time ago about an Iranian shepherd. This man could consistently hit a full man-sized target two out of three times at 100m. Even that is (imo) excellent shooting. It is unlikely that the "ancients" did any better than that.

here's a plate which was commissioned by heraclius, byzantine emperor, in the 7th century - it may be posted elsewhere, but it's the first time i've seen it - a beautiful piece of work   

SV

First, I have to admit that I have not read this long thread in detail.
Anyway, as to if the account of David & Goliath is real - yes, why not? To have champions fight before the real clash (I have never really believed that the fight of the champions replaced the big battle) seems to have been usual in many times and cultures, so... yes. No problems so far.

Goliath being nine feet tall... Nah, I don´t belive that. 7 feet might be more realistic, though, and the people describing the event probably wanted David´s victory to sound even more impressive so they added a couple of feet for literary effect. (Or maybe the Philistine propaganda stated him to be 9 feet to scare people  )

That David killed Goliath with his sling - oh, yes! And it was no miracle, either, it certainly did not require any personal attention from God! To stay out of Goliath´s effective range, David would have to keep, say 5 meters away from Goliath. He was small and quick, Goliath was big and considering his heavy armour and weapons most likely slow. Let the big guy move around in the heat for a while and work up a sweat, and when he stands still and catches his breath, maybe even lifts up his helmet to wipe his forehead to keep the sweat from trickling down into his eyes -

WHAM!

An expert slinger at the range of 5 meters would definitely be able to make a clean kill of a large man. If the Bible had stated "David pulled out a Smith & Wesson .38 and shot Goliath in the head" nobody would be the least surprised (well, apart from the anacronism, then...) - but in a way that was exactly what happened!

All statements of Goliath having superior weapons, and David "miraculously" defeating him are simply nonsense, if you ask me. David had a deadly weapon with longer effective range than Goliath´s, and he was an expert at using it! Everybody underestimated David´s sling, while David himself knew exactly what he could do with it. In my opinion, Goliath was in fact dead the moment David stepped out to face him - it just took Goliath (and everyone else) some time to realize it.

So yes, I think the story of David & Goliath is an account of an event that happened for real, but more like when movies are "based on a true...". As for a miracle by God - nope. There is simply no need for a miracle, even if I believed there was a God!

Lasse C

Dravonk wrote on Jul 10^th, 2007 at 9:58am:


Please note that I wrote "effective" range, not "potential" or "maximum" range.
Sure, Goliath could no doubt hurl his spear for a considerable distance, but a hard, long throw is pretty useless on a quick-moving single opponent with his eyes focused on you. I´d say that the distance he could use his spear and expect to actually hit quick-moving little David was limited to stabbing and a short throw that could be made with a surprise movement - which is hard to do with a heavy spear. That effective range might even be less than 5 metres.

Theoretically Goliath could stand with his arm raised and spear held ready to throw, but agile little David could run in circles around him, forcing him to turn for a new aim, and turn and turn... You don´t stand holding a heavy spear in a "throw-ready" position in baking sun very long.

No, I maintain my claim that David was likely to have been at least fairly safe 5 metres from Goliath, while in comfortable range for his own sling.

Lasse C

Yes, it is real.

Stoner wrote on Aug 11^th, 2007 at 3:30am:

Whoaa, my friend, calm down - OK?
I am... a person fond of facts...  
The tallest man alive is 236 cms tall. That is 7 feet and (barely) 9 inches, my friend - unless there is a special way of measuring feet in Finland which I don´t know of. For all the rest of us 1 foot = 12 inches = 12 x 2,54 cms = 30.48 cms.

7 feet is 213 cms. Not unheard of, but unusual. If there really are that many people in Finland taller than 213 cms Finland must have a most impressive national basket team!!
(World champs many times over, I suppose?  )

9 feet is 277 cms. I don´t claim it is impossible for a person to grow that big - but it is:
A) Very, very, very unusual.
B) Highly impractical. The human frame does not really have the construction for those sizes. Extremely tall (+230 cms) people often get problems with knees, hips, feet, etc.

So, a person being 9 feet tall, and mobile and strong enough to become a good warrior? No, I simply don´t believe that. Sorry.

Lasse C
(6 foot 3 inches, BTW)

DesertPilot wrote on Aug 12^th, 2007 at 2:33am:


As for units, I think they are not that far off. Most measuring units over history has been based on parts of the human body, the dimensions of which has not really changed dramatically since Cro Magnon came on to the scene.

Numbers, on the other hand...
Yes, scribes are notorious for getting them wrong, or to change - or even "grabbing them out of thin air" - for the literary effect. A good example of this is the statments of how many people were killed by the plague in Medieval times. Modern calculations of how many people who actually must have lived in different areas means that according to the scribes everybody in some places must have died -

two or three times each!

 

So, numbers passed on over long time are not to be trusted - which is a good reason I doubt Goliath was 9 feet tall. (Especially him not even being from Finland!! )

Maybe Goliath knew he did not have a chance. But, what choice did he have? Actually? Refuse to go out there and be considered to "chicken out" in front of a shepherd boy - or to go out and die for his "King & country". Not unheard of in history, after all. Die as he did, he made his name immortal! Many men have chosen death for a chance at that, very few succeeded as well as Goliath.

Lasse C

Lasse C wrote on Aug 11^th, 2007 at 3:12pm:



You're not a fan of due diligence...

the Tallest Man ever, Robert Wadlow, who stood at a staggering 2.72 m (8 ft 11.1 in).



So Goliath never existed, eh? Because no man could ever be just about 9 feet, right?
Mr. Wadlow was fully functional when he lived.


Oh, and first you said 7 feet was 237 cm, but it's really 213. There are THOUSANDS of people in finland who are 210 cm. NOTHING UNUSUAL! Unless you're a scrawny little teenager from England.