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Is it real? David and Goliath (Read 108917 times)
jml11220
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #105 - Apr 18th, 2007 at 11:28pm
 
But in true scientific form the work of Mr Fourier has been verified by peer review.  His work has stood up to the empirical method by being reproduced in independent study.  You don't have to do it again, although you very well could if you chose to. 

TS, My problem with your statement is that it's treading on the shaky ground of circular argument.  You're  starting to say that the Old Testament has many facts that are verifiable by reading the Old Testament.  If you believe the stories of the Bible on faith, I have nothing to touch you with.  As soon as you try to say your faith stands up to scientific scrutiny, then there are simply methods that must be used to verify it's truth.  Any time a biblical story is subject to outside scientific peer review, it doesn't hold up.  That's good because it keeps it a matter of faith, and keeps the divine entity in charge of things...but that's faith and not science. 

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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #106 - Apr 19th, 2007 at 12:47am
 

Quote:
TS, My problem with your statement is that it's treading on the shaky ground of circular argument.  You're  starting to say that the Old Testament has many facts that are verifiable by reading the Old Testament.


Dude, if your empirical method is as challenged as your reading comprehension appears to be.....then anything I might be persuaded to discuss with you is moot.

What I have said, and I didn't stutter, is that various details in the OT have been corroborated by archaeological findings. 

I think you're barking up the wrong tree with your interest in this topic.  You obviously won't find anything of value to support your methodology, nor will you persuade we who are accustomed to taking the word of a source we deem to be quite coherent and reliable.


Quote:
Any time a biblical story is subject to outside scientific peer review, it doesn't hold up.



Your rather naive blanket statement is categorically untrue.  You seem to have difficulty holding to your own advertised methods.....And I would add that although we can hardly blame these 'outside peers' of yours for missing the bigger picture, their condition does not require us to crop ours to fit their frame of reference.


Some of life's greatest challenges are well navigated upon a preponderance of evidence.  The rewards sweeter than many, unfortunately, will ever permit themselves to know.


Some of the most arrogant and assumptive people I've ever met, are scientists and preachers.  Somewhere in between are the rest of us....who simply understand the value of still believing in a higher power than ourselves.


Did David defeat Goliath just as recorded in the Holy Bible?  As demonstrated, he certainly could have.  And I will go so far as to say that I wouldn't be surprised at all if the whole thing wasn't captured on video, and stored in someone's archive.  I for one look forward to the chance to peer at it again and again. And review it to heart's content!



TS
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #107 - Apr 19th, 2007 at 1:57am
 
Peer review?  Oh, OK, then my faith is in Jean Baptiste Joseph Fourier and in his peers who reviewed his work and assured the rest of us that it is correct.  I still do not KNOW that his work is correct, because I have not done the proofs myself; I only have FAITH that his work is correct and his peers reviewed it correctly.

My point is, you CANNOT ever get away from taking some things on faith.  You may not realize it, in any given situation, but it is so nevertheless.

TS,
"... peer at it ... review it ..."?  That's bad!
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #108 - Apr 19th, 2007 at 2:34am
 

Quote:
TS,
"... peer at it ... review it ..."?  That's bad!



Dale, you still hold the record, my friend.


You're the only one I know who could actually pull off using the word 'pundit' as a verb.


Buddum bum. 


(zinger alert)


TS
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #109 - Apr 19th, 2007 at 2:57am
 
Quote:
...the Old Testament has many facts that are verifiable by reading the Old Testament.


I cannot resist commenting on this one!  Jml11220, you do have a good point here.  But it's not rock solid.  The Old Testament is not a single work of a single person (if it were, then your point WOULD be rock solid).  It is the work of a number of men (and women) recording their experiences.  To claim that the Bible (the whole thing, or just the Old Testament) cannot be used to validate itself, is like claiming that the Encyclopedia Britannica cannot be used to validate itself.  Like the Bible, the Encyclopedia is a single work, but it was written by many different people each with their own education, background, and experiences.

On the other hand, my faith is that all those people wrote as they were inspired by God, so that makes the Bible essentially the work of one Person.

On the other, other hand, that Person has (by definition) complete veracity, so parts of His work can safely be used to validate other parts of His work.

Oy.  It gets complicated.
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #110 - Apr 19th, 2007 at 11:22am
 

Good point Dale.....an Encyclopedia, like the Bible, is not a single work.  Yet is trusted by many to support itself.


It would be downright Monty Pythonian to see groups of scientists in courts of law 'peer reviewing' to ascertain the validity of the testimony.


The fact is, at a time when many superstitious peoples literally believed the Earth sat on the back of Atlas, or Elephants and a turtle, The Bible announced the truth.  And wherever the Bible touches on the physical sciences, it shows itself to be quite ahead of it's 'time', so to speak.


Just a few bible facts.




TS
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #111 - May 3rd, 2007 at 6:53pm
 
I had a nice heated argument with my friend today during art class at school...
First off, He's an Atheist and I'm Christian, so we are always having some "good" arguments.
This one of course had to do with the power of the sling and David and Goliath.
He understands the story of David and Goliath and i have filled him in on the points made in the Bible (aka Goliath wasnt the average guy he was 9-10feet tall, and he was covered in armor that a rock could not penetrate) but i pointed out that he had one open area on his forehead where his helmet did not reach, and that was the one spot that David hit and killed the Giant.
Later that day during lunch he brought up the idea that a stone hitting someone in the head wouldn't kill him (of course the stone may not have killed Goliath so that is why David used the sword on him...hehe) anyway, the prob was that he has a mindset that he is an immortal god in himself and nothing can kill him, so he claims that if a stone were to hit him in the forehead (or even anyone for that matter) that he would simply say ow and walk away leaving a bruise on his head.  He couldn't admit that a rock could actually penetrate the human skull which is exactly what it can do!
Makes me wanna take him out and sling stones at him until he believes the true power of the sling.    Tongue  Grin
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #112 - May 3rd, 2007 at 10:21pm
 

Quote:
Makes me wanna take him out and sling stones at him until he believes the true power of the sling.



How a person deals with one who believes differently than himself, is a true indicator of the worth and stability of his character.  We can all certainly 'feel' as you did that day!  Or we can be like the G.W.s of this world and let the 'missiles' fly.  There are practicing Christians, and then there are infiltrators possessed by Christ's enemy, who work up a name for themselves apparently in order to do as much damage to Christ's name as they are able.    


For what it's worth, I'm glad you didn't 'stone' him.  His name wouldn't happen to be 'Stephen' would it?


(insert Rod Serling theme here)


TS
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #113 - May 4th, 2007 at 2:33am
 
Quote:
... he brought up the idea that a stone hitting someone in the head wouldn't kill him (of course the stone may not have killed Goliath so that is why David used the sword on him...
I believe I already dealt with this, a year or two ago, but I'll repeat it anyway.

It is recorded that the stone sank into Goliath's forehead (1 Samuel, 17:49). This means that it shattered his skull and contused and tore his brain.  He was dying as he fell to the ground (though, depending on the extent of brain damage, he could perhaps have continued breathing for several hours more -- the parts of the brain controlling the basic body functions are located more toward the back of the skull, and were less likely to be damaged immediately).

But, it is not enough in such contests to put your opponent down.  The other Philistine soldiers may have expected Goliath to get back up and take David apart limb by limb.  But when David took Goliath's head off and held it up for all to see, there was no doubt of the outcome of this contest.

One might also consider the thickness and strength of the skull, compared with the thickness and strength of three-quarter inch plywood ... I believe we have videos and photos of stones partly and completely through such plywood.

In short, your friend is ignorant; educate him.  Go find some of those photos, or TechStuf's video of hitting the plywood Goliath.  They are convincing (because real!).
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #114 - May 5th, 2007 at 12:27pm
 
Hehe no I didnt go out and stone him.  Never would.  There were basically 2 sides to the argument and Goliath was the central conflict.
1. He doesnt believe in the power of the sling. So i wanted to "educate" him.
2. He doesnt believe that anything in this world can hurt him. (hes a big guy...) let alone a stone or God. 

So in fact he got more mad when i brought up the Biblical scriptures and God so he yelled and stalked off...kinda funny.  Hes a great guy but he just has his "head in the wrong place"

Sorry i turned this 'Goliath' discussion into a very different discussion... (couldn't think of a name)

TS.  Nope his name isn't Stephen.
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #115 - May 5th, 2007 at 1:17pm
 

Quote:
Sorry i turned this 'Goliath' discussion into a very different discussion...



Don't be.  I can hardly imagine comments that are more relevant to this discussion....


Perhaps sharing this
information
with your friend will help him understand that not all historical accounts contained in the Bible, remain unsubstantiated.  Indeed, enough to warrant careful consideration of those portions that require true faith, based upon accurate knowledge.


Stones, like words, hold a fruitful amount of symbolism.....so much so, that sometimes it's easy to escape the cold, hard truth of them.  And whether they be cast at the 'Goliaths' or 'Stephens' of this world, where they land can far surpass the initial intent of their 'slingers'.


That much, I know all too well.


TS

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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #116 - May 6th, 2007 at 5:26pm
 
That's some very cool info! 
Ya, what you say is very true.  The wording you used makes you sound like a philosopher...hehe. Cheesy

Thx for the info, now i have some more (better) stuff to "sling" at him!  Wink
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #117 - May 6th, 2007 at 10:20pm
 

Quote:
The wording you used makes you sound like a philosopher...hehe



Which reminds me, did you hear the one about the Zen monk who ordered a hot dog?


He wanted to get one with everything.


TS
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« Last Edit: May 7th, 2007 at 1:25am by Yahweh Bless you in Yeshua »  

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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #118 - May 7th, 2007 at 6:18am
 
hi - i've just read this topic, it's very interesting.

since goliath would be well aware of the deadliness of the sling, i think david carried a staff as camouflage, and hid the sling until goliath was within range.  goliath mentions the staff in the account in a mocking fashion, but a quarterstaff is (and presumably was) a weapon which was able to defend against swords. there is a historic account from the spanish armada of an english prisoner who was forced to fight 6 spaniard sword fencers at once, and he won!

also, the number of stones being 5 COULD be accounted by the speed of reloading and the distance, with the speed of goliath running towards david as the factor - david thought that he would have time for 5 shots by which time goliath would have either died or attacked david and killed him.

however, this explanation seems a bit off, in view of the fact that Techstuf has convincingly demonstrated accuracy and power against a plywood giant, which seemed to be right up against his house - if Techstuf has the skill to avoid expensive damage to his house by hitting a small target, it's safe to assume that david, a shepherd who has used a sling as an everyday tool and weapon since early childhood, would be a better marksman than any of us

in conclusion, i would guess that david was as skilled as those benjamites who could "sling a stone at a hair's breadth and never miss" and that his collection of 5 stones is the earliest record of someone having a lucky number!

NB after spending the guts of 20 years studying religions, Christianity, the Bible, accounts of evolution, geology, radiometry etc etc i've come to the sad but inescapable conclusion that the Bible is a flawed man-made document (the books to be in the NT were decided by committee, for instance, and there is clear and undeniable proof of our animal origins as evolved species) and that it is impossible to determine the existence or otherwise of God. 
faith is worthless as proof - when that exact mindset is exhibited by someone of another religion, it's called "lack of critical thinking!"

oh and by the way what an annoying habit (i'm a grumpy old man) of people who write G-d for God - didn't JC say to fall God "father" in defiance of the holier-than-thous?  even i know what the Lord was getting at and i don't even believe in the divinity of Christ  - or is it Chr-st? 


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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #119 - May 7th, 2007 at 2:43pm
 
I was just reviewing this topic (actually I was looking for the link to TechStuf's plywood Goliath video), and I came across something that just cries out for a reaction:
Guap wrote on Apr 7th, 2007 at 6:16pm:
... Whether or not it's true is a matter of personal preference.


So I am reacting.  I am going to draw attention to a particular belief about truth, by making a series of statements.  Read them, and gauge your own reaction.  What will be interesting, is which statement you are at when you decide "That is asinine, it's either true or it's false!"

OK, here goes:
  • Whether or not David killed Goliath, is a matter of personal preference.
  • Whether or not the Bible is true, is a matter of personal preference.
  • Whether or not Jesus of Nazareth actually lived, is a matter of personal preference.
  • Whether or not Socrates of Athens actually lived, is a matter of personal preference.
  • Whether or not Napoloeon Bonaparte actually lived, is a matter of personal preference.
  • Whether or not Stephen Hawking actually lived, is a matter of personal preference.
  • Whether or not Stephen Hawking actually knows anything about mathematics, is a matter of personal preference.
  • Whether or not two plus two is equal to four, is a matter of personal preference.

Now: where did you finally draw the line?  And why?
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