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Precision skills in a historical perspective (Read 17705 times)
Matolay
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Re: Precision skills in a historical perspective
Reply #15 - Jan 13th, 2004 at 4:45pm
 
Hondero,

It's said wisdom comes from examining the true meaning of words. Your knowledge about ancient weapons is amazing - anyone who cares to read Livius, Plutarch, Strabo, Herodot, Sun Tzu or any of the classics is a friend'o mine. It is a noble thing to keep alive or revive ancient skills. When we try to improve on an old invention like the slingshot our ancestors often seem to have outsmartened us.

The cestrosfendon you describe must have been vicious. What is the approx. weight of those darts, do they spin during flight and what is the average range of such a missile?

Saludos

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Hondero
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Re: Precision skills in a historical perspective
Reply #16 - Jan 16th, 2004 at 1:49pm
 
Matolay,
I ought you and Wiphartist some information about "cestrosfendon". I´m wating to have some quiet time to do it. But at the moment I ask you about Vikings sling, you that lives among them (as you say). There are literary evidences in previous celtic times, in all Euope, but don´t know if Viking culture include the sling among his weapons. It´s an empty page in my sling references  Undecided.
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He brought a conquering sword..., a shield..., a spear... , a sling from which no erring shot was discharged.&&
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Matolay
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Re: Precision skills in a historical perspective
Reply #17 - Jan 16th, 2004 at 5:13pm
 
Hondero,

Yes, I live among the Danes, and here too slingshots were in use no doubt. Denmark is the cradle of archaeology - no other place on earth have been dug up so extensively as this soil and still more turns up. It was the idea of a Dane to divide the ages into stone- bronze- and Iron Age in the first place and the history of this land goes back as far as 12.500 BC. Man has been present here since just about the time the ice cover had melted after the last ice age. 

The Vikings were not a people as such - it was rather the name of the raids themselves these Danish, Norse and Swedish warriors took part in during the period of 750-1050. 

I am not sure slingshots were in use in combat at this late time in history, but it must surely have been in use by Sheppard’s everywhere. Even 500 years later Don Quixote lost some teeth to one  I am hoping to get answers on this subject from museum sources.

It is thrilling to read Yurek hurls 500 m - that is an awesome distance! But if everybody starts using lead glands there will be an unhealthy amount of bad gastrolites for the dinosaurs to come after we've all gone to mars   

Some of the beauty and simplicity of the slingshot gets lost when we begin to drag bags full of lead glands along just to break records. I think the main reason for using lead was the greater enjury caused on impact on a human or human-sized beast. They hit harder. So keep the lead ammo for the enemy... 



Saludos
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Whipartist
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Re: Precision skills in a historical perspective
Reply #18 - Jan 16th, 2004 at 5:33pm
 
Isn't there a map in the article by Manfred Korman?  A map of worldwide sling distribution according to acheological records of the time?  It would be interesting to look at, but I don't think it was too detailed.  I suspect the Vikings were not big sling users as far as warefare is concerned, because they were raiders, as Matolay says.  It would be interesting to find out.  It would be such a treat to find some well preserved slings in Europe.  I suspect conditions there tend toward making them rot more, even than in other places.   

Jurek uses lead glandes because the last record was made with a gland, and the range increase is significant.  Part of the beauty of slings is that they are such simple weapons.  As I said in the other thread, technology has its limits before it looses all its romance.  But I really like the idea of lead glandes, I wish I had time to make some, and space to use them.  They are a historical part of slinging, as are stones.  Of course, stones are the most beautiful projectiles.  It's so much fun searching for good ones along a riverbed or, in odd places.  When I go hiking, I got my pockets full by the time I come back.  Not anymore though.  Now I carry my shepherd's stone bag. 

That cestrosfendon is intriguing me.  I'm thinking about how it might of worked.  I'm looking forward to hearing what you've learned about it Hondero. 

                                         Ben
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Hondero
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Re: Precision skills in a historical perspective
Reply #19 - Jan 16th, 2004 at 6:53pm
 
Matolay, my friend, don´t worry about the lead glandes Yurek is spreading for all Poland with his powerful throw. Much more lead the Roman left everywhere, and in the numerous wars in all times, and also the shot-rain the hunters make nowadays in the fields. Fortunately there are very few slingers throwing glandes in the world.
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« Last Edit: Jan 17th, 2004 at 7:11am by Hondero »  

He brought a conquering sword..., a shield..., a spear... , a sling from which no erring shot was discharged.&&
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Whipartist
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Re: Precision skills in a historical perspective
Reply #20 - Jan 16th, 2004 at 7:51pm
 
Yeah, Jurek stands on one side of Poland and slings clear to the other.  He's our man!  Go for it Jurek! 

                            Ben

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Matolay
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Re: Precision skills in a historical perspective
Reply #21 - Jan 16th, 2004 at 11:15pm
 
Does anyone know about slingshots being used from horseback in historical times?

I have read somewhere that the Magyars should have used slingshots from horseback besides their deadly bows and arrows about the time of their conquest around 800 and that this weapon still had a considerable use in 9th century battles. In that case perhaps the Vikings did use slingshots too.

Interestingly the horses moved to Iceland just about that time have kept their ability to ride 5 different paces - two of which non Icelandic horses have lost all together.

The two forgotten paces - the 'tölt' and the 'pas' must have been present in ancient horses. In Livius you often read about the Romans using the old trick; removing the bridles because the horses are not nearly as scared of riding into the middle of battle as the riders sitting on top of them. Smiley I have also heard that the use of stirups came with the Huns so the Romans along with the ancient must have been excellent riders.

The 'tölt' pace is especially useful riding long distance as it is the least tiring locomotion for both rider and horse, while the 'pas' pace (pace like a Camel's run - moving two legs on the same side simultaneously) gives the rider the most stabile rapidly moving position from which to aim and throw lances, shoot arrows or - perhaps - sling stones as well.

Now if someone thinks it's impossible - the horse would get hurt - consider the use of a slingshot with a wooden handle of an arms lenght to keep it away from from the horse while turning - something like the handle of a horsewhip. Hondero, is there such slings?




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Matolay
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Re: Precision skills in a historical perspective
Reply #22 - Jan 17th, 2004 at 12:21am
 
...Boyz take it easy now - don't you start hurling lead glands 1 mile from a motorbike going 160  Grin
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Chris
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Re: Precision skills in a historical perspective
Reply #23 - Jan 17th, 2004 at 12:49am
 
I've never heard of slingshots (aka hand catapult) being used like that.  Bows are a much deadlier weapon.  The materials needed for an efficient handheld slingshot weren't readily available in those times.  Only these newer synthetic sling shots have enough power to easily kill small game, but a human (armored)?  humm..

Chris
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Matolay
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Re: Precision skills in a historical perspective
Reply #24 - Jan 17th, 2004 at 12:59am
 
Gaius_Cornelius, close friend of Livius,

Did he by any chance leave a copy of his complete works with you? It's such a blunder we mortals only have kept the quarter of it. I bet there are more slingshot secrets hidden in the bulk.... Smiley

Apart from using lead for water pipes, the Romans were pretty clever. Like this consul during the Macedon war making a speech to calm his soldiers before battle during a moon eclipse. He says it is nothing but the earth casting its shadow on the moon so they shouldn't get scared like the enemy does. But hey - this was 120 BC - was this common knowledge at that time?? How well did these guys really know astronomy?
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Matolay
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Re: Precision skills in a historical perspective
Reply #25 - Jan 17th, 2004 at 1:37am
 
I have my doubts about slingshots being used from horseback too. Some places I've read they did use them, other places that they have no knowledge about slingshots being used in this fashion at all. It must be difficult to deliver a precise shot when in move, but never tell a human something is impossible because he will go ahead and do it. If the target was larger, lets say a horse, stones delivered this way could perhaps cause disturbance among the animals and thereby break up formations, or maybe you could discover hidden units among dense woods in the distance using slings. It is said about the Magyars in early Bysantine sources that they did everything from the saddle, slept, ate, had their conversation and generally felt uncomfortable standing on their short slanting legs on the ground. This taken into consideration perhaps they even slung from the saddle Smiley
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Hondero
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Re: Precision skills in a historical perspective
Reply #26 - Jan 17th, 2004 at 2:55am
 
Very interesting your information on horses, Matolay. I´ve not any doubt about the possibility of use the sling from horses, and in fact the sudamericans natives were very skillful throwing bolas with accuracy from them, and not only the three bolas weapon but the single bola or “bola perdida” that is similar in dynamics to sling. Nevertheless I´ve not read anything precise about slingin from horses.
In regard to slings with handle they have been used a lot in all times. From Roman to Middle Age the “fustibalus” was used, though it must require both hands, the same that bow. But it´s more difficult to use from horses that the sling  with horizontal turn, that wouldn´t hurt the animal.
Well, I can not ride, if I could, should  try to sling from it, it has to be a wonderful experience  Smiley
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« Last Edit: Jan 17th, 2004 at 7:22am by Hondero »  

He brought a conquering sword..., a shield..., a spear... , a sling from which no erring shot was discharged.&&
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justbarak
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Re: Precision skills in a historical perspective
Reply #27 - Jan 17th, 2004 at 4:18am
 
Quote:
The 'tölt' pace is especially useful riding long distance as it is the least tiring locomotion for both rider and horse


Wow, I didn't know about the tolt.  I'll have to look that up.  I know about the camel pace - most of the family Camelidae use it; camels, llamas, vicunas, alpacas, and guanacos - of which all inhabit arid and semi-arid habitats. Most orses don't gravitate towards it, but I've seen a few here and there that use it, especially young horses frisking.  The advantages of the pace is that b/c the hooves on the same side move in unison, it allows the animal to stretch it's gait, making it more efficient for long distances and a slightly smoother, though somewhat swaying, ride.  The disadvantages of the pace is what surprises me that it would be used it battle - it decreases stability and balance for the horse/camel, and decreases their maneuverability. 

I'd be a bit skeptical about slings and horses for the reasons mentioned previous - the tendency to whack the poor horses head, and the difficulty of slinging laterally seems to make it a poor choice for a calvalry weapon.  I've ridden horses a fair portion of my life.  The really big question I'd have for horses and slings though, is not overcoming the throwing part, but the problem of carrying ammo.  A big bag of rocks slung over your shoulder or around your waist, beating up against you or the horse as you go bouncing and careening across the country side would leave a lot of bruises.  Plus the extra weight for the amount of ammo required in battle...  Arrows are a lot lighter. 
Cheesy 

In favor of slinging from a horse though, at a dead run, the horse is usually stretched out flat with it's head lowered, providing a rider with good slinging skills enough space to throw rocks pretty much dead ahead.  And a gallop would add a good 30mph of force to the projectile. 

A sling in the hand at point blank range would even be a pretty deadly instrument on horse back.  You'd probably lose your rock, but in a tight situation you could swing it like a mace w/out letting go of the release end and bash skulls with pretty decent efficiency.

Barak
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Matolay
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Re: Precision skills in a historical perspective
Reply #28 - Jan 17th, 2004 at 6:29am
 
Barak, you have a good point there – it’s really troublesome to carry that kind of ammo on horseback unless it’s a few pebbles hidden in a tight pocket. The steppes of Asia from where the Magyars are said to have originated is mostly grassland, good for fat cattle but you may ride days before finding usable pebbles to sling, so there is another thing that makes me wonder about too eager historians adding this and that to beautify their kin.

About the ‘pas’ pace, ask any Icelander about this, I definitely recall having read some historical source saying that the horse becomes a better platform for throwing lances or shooting arrows doing this pace, than it does during galloping or trotting. If only I’d remember where I read it  ???

Around Hannibal’s arrival no one could match his Numid horsemen, but the Romans soon adopted their cavalry to be similar. The Numid’s also rode on camel - the riders of these beasts are said to have had 6 feet long swords in order to be able to hit ducking footmen from their high seat.

Hondero, about the bola. Never heard of the non three-stone version yet, you keep amazing me. Unfortunately I know very little about my ancestors in the Araucana family line but I suspect they are – if not the inventors of the bola, - then at least very well known to use it. Perhaps it was the weapon of the unfortunate now extinct Patagonians. As on every continent, the first inhabitants of the land have always gradually been pushed further and further away from their point of entry, by the never ending waves of newcomers, until it was impossible to get further by land. That is why the first settlers of Australia ended up in Tasmania and that is why the first settlers of America were pushed back to Patagonia and Tierra del Fuego. 
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Re: Precision skills in a historical perspective
Reply #29 - Jan 17th, 2004 at 8:51am
 
Quote:
...But if everybody starts using lead glands there will be an unhealthy amount of bad gastrolites for the dinosaurs to come after we've all gone to mars

Some of the beauty and simplicity of the slingshot gets lost when we begin to drag bags full of lead glands along just to break records. I think the main reason for using lead was the greater enjury caused on impact on a human or human-sized beast. They hit harder. So keep the lead ammo for the enemy...

 
Matolay,

I respect your care about the environmental contamination by lead. I'm fully conscious of the poisonous properties of lead compouds.
But I wouldn't be afraid that evrybody will "start to drag bags full of lead glands along just to break records" and use them on all sides. First - because the slingers are very small group in the world, second - the most of them prefer to use the stones (me too, exactly like Ben said)), third reason - the bag full of lead glandes is hard to carry, fifth - making them require some skill and unthealthy work, next -  not each potential slinger would be going to break records, next - useing them require a lot secure spot, next - there isn't easy to get lead in markets... etc... etc..

So the potential lead "emission" to eniviroment caused by the slingers seems non-significant relative to other sources, even only, mentioned by Hondero hunting, sport and especially military ammo. But what about industry and others? We should consider that lead not used for making glandes would come back to environment anyway, probably in a much more dangerous form.

I usualy use the stones and ice-balls lately. The glandes were used only two times for experiment. Additionaly I think that investigation of a sling achievements is profitable for the historical knowledge.

So I finally prefer use the lead glandes for the sport records than for the enemy. It is more healthy for people and as result for the dinosaurs too. Anyway they would choose a better climate, probably Wink

Greeting,

Jurek
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In the shape, structure and position of each stone, there is recorded a small piece of history. So, slinging them, we add a bit of our history to them.
 
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