Welcome, Guest. Please Login
SLINGING.ORG
 
Home Help Search Login


Pages: 1 2 3 
Send Topic Print
Effective range: Sling vs. Arrow (Read 37169 times)
Eleatic Guest
Guest


Re: Effective range: Sling vs. Arrow
Reply #15 - May 24th, 2006 at 8:42am
 
Yeah, I found it! I have found an excellent source about the ballistics and effective range of ancient slingers! Very detailed, very scientific, knowledgable both in terms of physics as of the historical use of slings. Really leaves no questions open. Unfortunately, it is in German, but the author is also one of the renowned international authorities on ancient catapults:

It is:  Bauten und Katapulte des römischen Heeres  von Dietwulf Baatz, Stuttgart (1994), p.294-302

I will give only briefly the results:
The author differs between clay, stone and lead projectiles. Lead has an "enormous superiority" in the military use due to a couple of favourable ballistic properties which are a function of its much higher density compared to clay and stone. Lead projectiles have "considerably smaller" air resistance due to their smaller width. Therefore they suffer in their flight from less loss of energy  and fly thus much farther. Moreover, despite a longer range they hit their targets with a higher energy than than clay or stone projectiles.

The maximal effective ranges of the different projectiles go like this:
Lead projectiles:  20 - 100 m "dangerous for armoured troops"; effective for unarmoured troops up to 200 m
Stone projectiles: 85 m
Clay Projectiles: 65 m

"Stone-and clay projectiles cease to be practically effective at distances over 100 m, but they are effective against at shorter ranges, especially against unarmoured soldiers. Their effectiveness increases the shorter the range."

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Eleatic Guest
Guest


Re: Effective range: Sling vs. Arrow
Reply #16 - May 24th, 2006 at 8:50am
 
PS: The author also touches the effective ranges of bow and arrow, albeit only in reference to findings of other autors:

The aimed shot with an 26 g arrow the range is 100-120 meter. Medium sooting range on the hunt is 30-50 m. The shot energy of the sling is somehat higher than that of the bow, as the speed of the sling projectile and arrow are comparable, but arrow usually more light than sling projectiles. Considering a projectile speed of 75m per second for both sling and bow and arrow, the sling has a trow energy of 112,5 Joule, whereas the bow 30-80 Joule, very strong bows up to 96 Joule.

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Zwiebeltuete
Descens
***
Offline


Fly! Angel, fly!

Posts: 143
Germany, near Nuremberg
Gender: male
Re: Effective range: Sling vs. Arrow
Reply #17 - May 24th, 2006 at 12:03pm
 
Does he have in that article a better air drag model than in the 1990 article?

Btw.: To have a better sense of the projectile energy, small caliber guns (.22) have about 100-200 Joule.

Zwiebeltuete
Back to top
 

Slinging since 2005-09-24.
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Matthias
Past Moderator
*
Offline



Posts: 1418
Gatineau/Ottawa QC, Canada
Gender: male
Re: Effective range: Sling vs. Arrow
Reply #18 - May 24th, 2006 at 12:54pm
 
We'll have to look this one up! Interesting to limit the effective range of lead projectiles though - the main reason why lead glandes are far superior to less dense ones is that they experience very little reduction in speed due to aerodynamic drag. The effect is so pronounced that a lead glande hits with pretty much the same force regardless of distance thrown.

Matthias
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Tint
Interfector Viris Spurii
Past Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 2342
Hong Kong
Gender: male
Re: Effective range: Sling vs. Arrow
Reply #19 - May 24th, 2006 at 9:40pm
 
100 meters?  That's short!  I can double that anyday!  and I only sling pebbles!

I guess it depends on the definition of effective range.  Does the author mean pin point accuracy?  or just stopping power?
Back to top
 
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Eleatic Guest
Guest


Re: Effective range: Sling vs. Arrow
Reply #20 - May 24th, 2006 at 11:02pm
 
If I had a scanner, I would have scanned the whole article by now and uploaded it, but unfortunately I have no yet. Perhaps somebody else can do and mak it a pdf, I think it is very much worth the effort.

Air drag is calculated: R = Cw x D/2 x V squared x Q

R : airdrag in Newton (Luftwiderstand in Newton)
V : speed of projectile (Geschossgeschwindigkeit)
Q : width of projectile, seen from the ballistic curve, m squared (Geschossquerschnitt, aus der Bahnrichtung gesehen, m zum Quadrat)
D : air density, kg/cbm (Luftdichte)
Cw : resistance value, a mere multiplication factor (dimensionless number), depends on the shape of the projectile (Widerstandsbeiwert, ein reiner Multiplikationsfaktor (dimensionslose Zahl), haengt von der Form des Geschosses ab


As for the range issue: The author makes a point of differing between maximal range, sports record ranges as he calls it, and militarily effective ranges. His key consideration is that, the longer the range, the smaller the hit probability. "Already small angle deviations at throwing change the ballistic curve over long distances considerably", as the winddrift increases. That, of course, applies only to individual, but not to mass targets, as he stresses. As I already said, the author is more complex than I can reflect here, he tries to consider things from every angle, thats why I would recommend the article so strongly.

As for maximal range: The author gives some numbers, but he makes again a point that the maximal ranges which he presents are a function of the values he has defined. With a projectile of 40g, throwing speed of 75m/s (=112,5 Joule), a throw angle of 40 degrees, air density of 1,14kg/cbm and a resistance value of 0,4 the maximal ranges are:

lead 352 m
stone 232 m
clay 200 m

At these distances, lead hits home with 42% of the initial 112,5 joule projectile energy, stone with 23%, and clay with 19%.

-> Lead can not only be thrown the farthest, it also has even though it travels longer in the air, the highest impact.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
funda_iucunda
Senior Member
****
Offline


Watt den een sin Uhl is
den annern sin Nachtigal.

Posts: 317
Germany (north of Hamburg)
Gender: male
Re: Effective range: Sling vs. Arrow
Reply #21 - May 25th, 2006 at 3:14am
 
The ranges which some of us attain are admirable. I measured the ranges of my throws during the last weeks. I sling pebbles of a weight of about 40 to 70 gr. normally with a sling made of sisal or flax of 90-100 cm length. Sometimes I attain 100 m, no more. I wonder how to get better results (about 150 as the recent balearic records or even 200 m as Tint). I doubt that just more muscles would help. Is there a clue, specific technique or so?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Zwiebeltuete
Descens
***
Offline


Fly! Angel, fly!

Posts: 143
Germany, near Nuremberg
Gender: male
Re: Effective range: Sling vs. Arrow
Reply #22 - May 25th, 2006 at 7:53am
 
That is the same as in the Saalburg-Jahrbuch. See my comment about that at http://www.mbsks.franken.de/slinging/slinging.html#BaatzSJ

Zwiebeltuete
Back to top
 

Slinging since 2005-09-24.
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Eleatic Guest
Guest


Re: Effective range: Sling vs. Arrow
Reply #23 - May 25th, 2006 at 9:21pm
 
Good critic! I think you are largely right that Baatz' estimates of the effective range are rather on the conservative side. I noticed the same tendency in his discussion about catapults, too. This is however due to him placing special emphasis on two things: First accuracy and second impact. Since he is primarily concerned with small targets, the maximum effective range would rise if we consider large masses of people which is an allowance he actually repeatedly makes. Also, a further increase of effective range could be allowed for, if we argue for other values, as you do in your critic. Here again Baatz stresses the model character of some of his aasumptions like air density.

The good thing about his article is that it really gives us the means to come to our own conclusions, since his analysis is strong in demonstrating the interplay of all relevant physical and military factors.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
CanDo
Interfector Viris Spurii
Past Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 1652
New England, USA
Gender: male
Re: Effective range: Sling vs. Arrow
Reply #24 - May 25th, 2006 at 9:28pm
 
Haha,
So nothing can be as simple as:
Shoot a good bow. Sling a glande. See which goes further.  Grin

Seriously though, good work/research guys. Eleatic Guest, you may wish to register, it only takes a second and is COMPLETELY free.... There's just been a lot of tension around guests lately.......   Thanks for the info.
Back to top
 
WWW  
IP Logged
 
funda_iucunda
Senior Member
****
Offline


Watt den een sin Uhl is
den annern sin Nachtigal.

Posts: 317
Germany (north of Hamburg)
Gender: male
Re: Effective range: Sling vs. Arrow
Reply #25 - Jun 4th, 2006 at 3:27pm
 
zwiebeltuete,

I read your site: good work. Your interpretation of this etruscan pouch is interesting. Do you have good pictures of these slings carved in the etruscan thombs? I thought that they show twisted but not braided cords.
How do you manage the small and tiny lead glandes staying in the open pouches?

funda
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Zwiebeltuete
Descens
***
Offline


Fly! Angel, fly!

Posts: 143
Germany, near Nuremberg
Gender: male
Re: Effective range: Sling vs. Arrow
Reply #26 - Jun 4th, 2006 at 6:51pm
 
I have only a photocopy of the article, but to me it looks like braided.

I never had slipping something flat or long through split pouches. What does slip are spheres. The best slipping projectiles I so far had were chest nuts. These are not only mostly spherical but also have a slippery surface.

Zwiebeltuete
Back to top
 

Slinging since 2005-09-24.
WWW  
IP Logged
 
funda_iucunda
Senior Member
****
Offline


Watt den een sin Uhl is
den annern sin Nachtigal.

Posts: 317
Germany (north of Hamburg)
Gender: male
Re: Effective range: Sling vs. Arrow
Reply #27 - Jun 11th, 2006 at 4:25pm
 
the copies I have of the pictures from etruscan tombs are either good. The slings could be braided or twisted or braided and then covered for protection by leather or flax what might look like it where twisted. I'm in search for better pictures, without success, so far.

Is there anyone among us who has accidently visited the "tomba dei relievi" in Italy or who has good fotos of its interior?

funda
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
lobohunter
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


where be a rock and a
string there be a sling

Posts: 1985
Cottage Grove or
Gender: male
Re: Effective range: Sling vs. Arrow
Reply #28 - Jun 17th, 2006 at 9:40am
 
o.k as slingers we all will agree that in pure range the sling out distances the bow
but in hunting ranges the sling and the bow are about the same fifty yards as a max effective range
this come from my expernce of hunting with both
the truth is i prefer under twenty yards with both
Back to top
 
Albert Scott C bigbadwolf41 77940+hwy+99+south,+Spc+22  
IP Logged
 
Subotai_Ba_Atur
Tiro
**
Offline


Slings don't kill people.
I do.

Posts: 14
Pluto
Gender: male
Re: Effective range: Sling vs. Arrow
Reply #29 - Jun 18th, 2006 at 4:16pm
 
If we're talking maximum range here, 500 yards and beyond have been rocorded by Turkish archers, 300 easy. Can the sling make that? Very likely, yes, but it would take strength and skill that few of us have time to perfect today. I'll also say that the draw weight for English longbows has been known to surpass 150 lbs, Turkish recurved bows going up to 200 with thumb ring. Modern hunting bows don't even come close to the ancients' in power.

The sling probably outranges the bow as far as aimed shots are concerned, but can it match the indirect fire capabilities?
Back to top
 

Mffmggn flrrflrt glvncs!&&&&-Kenny McCormick
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 3 
Send Topic Print
(Moderators: Curious Aardvark, Chris, Mauro Fiorentini, Masiakasaurus, Bill Skinner, David Morningstar, Rat Man)