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Indirect fire (Read 4323 times)
Mike_R
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Indirect fire
Dec 23rd, 2004 at 8:37pm
 
I was just wondering does anyone else practice their aim with indirect shots. I have always and practice that way more than straight shots. My straight shots are good, but my indirect are starting to really kick ass. I like that kind of practice because I can work on distance and aim at the same time. I usually sling at a floating barrel. At 50 metres my shots almost always land within half a metre of the target,100 metres within one metre, and within  1.5 metres at 150-200 metres. They seem like they come down with crazy power at that range. They pick up spped on the arc down and cut into the water with almost no splash. (with six ounce football shaped rocks)
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Tint
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Re: Indirect fire
Reply #1 - Dec 24th, 2004 at 1:43am
 
That very impressive, Mike.  I haven't pratice like that but I guess I should start.  How useful do you think  shooting like that would be in a hunting or survival situation?  I guess if you can have a dozen slingers of your ability you can hunt quite effectively by lobbing rocks over the prey's head.  But if the prey is moving it wouldn't be of much use.
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Hobb
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Re: Indirect fire
Reply #2 - Dec 24th, 2004 at 2:00am
 
I've got a friend that practices that way almost exclusively.  We all stink at it.
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Mike_R
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Re: Indirect fire
Reply #3 - Dec 24th, 2004 at 2:39am
 
I don't really know how effective it would be. I do know that if I lob a couple from a hundred metres into a flock of seagulls sitting on the beach it is pretty easy to get one. I imagine ducks or geese would also be good. It is nice to be in the distance because then you don't scare them off. Sometimes they just sit there after the first one and don't even move until a couple more start landing. I figure canada geese would be an ideal target that way. They are big, slow on the ground, really stupid and stand in a nice close bunch. Anyone know how they taste?
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MammotHunter
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Re: Indirect fire
Reply #4 - Dec 24th, 2004 at 9:27am
 
I've heard Canada geese are really tasty, albeit a bit greasy. Here in the Chesapeake bay, they used to be a big food item, sort of like crabs, in a way. Ducks and geese were commonly hunted here, by men in skiffs with shotguns that would put an 8 guage to shame. I've heard many stories about men hunting ducks on a moonless night, slowly paddling towards them in the skiff, then firing the gun, having the muzzle blast  illuminate the entire scene for a second of a couple of dozen ducks or geese being shot at once, and then tipping the boat with the force of the recoil. They would use bags of pine straw packed against the back of the boat to soften the recoil from blasting the stern of the boat out. I've slung at geese at my university, but only half honestly. I mean, what would I do with a 10 pound goose if I hit it? I'm not that hungry, and besides, I have no way of preparing it, and there are too many people around to sneak it off, and I'm pretty sure hunting on university ground is illegal, slightly more so than my bringing a weapon on school grounds. right?
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Re: Indirect fire
Reply #5 - Dec 24th, 2004 at 9:45am
 
Quote:
They seem like they come down with crazy power at that range. They pick up spped on the arc down and cut into the water with almost no splash. (with six ounce football shaped rocks)


Mike_R, I only do this type of type of throw when i am out at the lake fishing. I get about 200-300 yard out of some and less with the very big rocks that i throw. I know what sound you are talking about and it is very impressive to me too. Have you skipped rocks out on the water with you sling yet. That is very cool also.
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Re: Indirect fire
Reply #6 - Dec 24th, 2004 at 9:58am
 
I have skipped rocks across the salt river.  Sidearm style is best for this.
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solobo
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Re: Indirect fire
Reply #7 - Dec 24th, 2004 at 3:47pm
 
I've been doing highschool physics and found out that when something is thrown straight up, when it comes back down to the place which it was thrown from it has the exact same speed as when it was thrown exe if you shot a bullet straight up at 1000 ft per sec., it would come back down and hit you at the same speed, like you had been hit at point blank range.  So I think that when lobbing a rock with the sling it still has a lot of velocity when it hits the target, and since you have to sling hard to get it that far, there will be more power in the rock.
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Mike_R
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Re: Indirect fire
Reply #8 - Dec 24th, 2004 at 6:39pm
 
I find that they do have massive power with that kind of arc.
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Matthias
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Re: Indirect fire
Reply #9 - Dec 24th, 2004 at 6:43pm
 
Drag really does kill a huge amount of speed...

For the ranges we're talking about here (250m) you need 60m/s launch velocity @45 using a 120g golf ball size stone. Impact speed is ~45m/s. Terminal velocity is ~70m/s

It is a little bit hard to see but in the pic I posted of my work-in-progress calculator, the red line overlapping the tragectories is the speed of the projectile. Launch is 63.5 m/s - you can see that the shorter throw (rock) bleeds off speed (that is why it is shorter! Wink) while the long throw (lead) hits with close to the initial speed.

One more argument for heavy glandes.

Matthias

...
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Re: Indirect fire
Reply #10 - Dec 27th, 2004 at 2:56pm
 
Matthias

The numbers that you great software delivers are very interesting. As 61m/s is the velocity to get a range of 400 in the vacuum and as you compute a range of 250m for a starting velocity of 60m/s, that means we have a lost of 150/400=37%. For higher ranges one needs even higher starting velocities but the air drag is also higher. So I guess that to reach a range of 400m/s one probably needs a starting velocity of the magnitude 100m/s. And that is nearly 1/3 of the velocity for the slowest gun bullets!

What is the starting velocity you actually compute for a range 400m/s ?

I would also be interested in what starting velocities I use for my target shooting. My ranges are rather very modest. If I would use my styles for range I would get something between 50 and 100m. So I’m interested in the corresponding starting velocities for ranges of 50m, 75m and 100m when using bullets of the type you already used in you computation (density=2500kg/m^3, 120g, but round instead of ellipsoid).

(What I didn’t understand is that you speek of „a 120g golf ball size stone". I have a golf ball with a weight of 45g. Are there golf balls with different densities ?...)

Thanks a lot in advance !
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KnollSlinger
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Re: Indirect fire
Reply #11 - Dec 27th, 2004 at 7:09pm
 
I am actually liking rounds of more than 8 ounces delivered with an extra long sling with an extra long pocket with a style that is becomming more like a hammer throw.

I have noticed tremenduous impact effects using this technique!
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Chris
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Re: Indirect fire
Reply #12 - Feb 2nd, 2005 at 12:29am
 
Looking awesome Matthias!!  Let us know when the software is complete!

Chris
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Matthias
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Re: Indirect fire
Reply #13 - Feb 2nd, 2005 at 1:31am
 
Yikes! That's a gentle nudge. The sim is to the point where I use it quite regularily, but not quite fit for "general" release - need to built up some steam to sit down and finish it off! As for not replying to Alsatian et al - sorry, I lost this thread over Christmas I guess.

A 120g golf-ball-sized stone is a rock about the same size as a golf ball. It works out to about 120g, assuming averageish density and perfect spheres.

To hit 400m with said rock, you need at least 90m/s @~40deg, which is pretty quick... A smooth rock (say a big marble) will cost you almost 20m/s extra due to the higher drag. The good news is that if you _can_ get into the 90s, your range starts to open up as you can keep the glans working in the (low drag) turbulent flow regime longer. At _my_ current speeds (say 45-60) Embarrassed, you really need the advantages afforded by aero ammo...

With "perfect" lead ammo and a perfect throw, 400m is just acheivable with 67m/s, which is well within reach for lots of us. I've got my mold materials together... maybe we'll put some of this to the test come spring!

Matthias
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lobohunter
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Re: Indirect fire
Reply #14 - Feb 2nd, 2005 at 10:33am
 
Wow Matthias!
Absolutly great work! I have recently pick up a new style I call hyper aceleration. This is nothing more than using the wrist to twirl the sling really fast a couple of times before release. After I calmed down the wild shot's caused by this style. I found that my short shot's,
(under fifty yards) had much greater power. This was indicated to me by the fact that may clay glands that used to indent and bounce of my arrow rest target now penitrate and some times go though. I never thought about increased distance. You now have me very excited. This weekend I head to my distance practice grounds. Armed with a 120 gram golf balls
thanks matthias
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