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Accuracy Comparison & Competition? (Read 12493 times)
Johnny
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Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Reply #15 - Feb 24th, 2004 at 6:46pm
 
Yurek
Don't get to discouraged, I'm sure the bows they were using are modern day creations,i.e.-Fiberglass laminates, cable wheel powered compounds, etc... Remember, the Rhodians in Xenophon's army kept the Persian archers at bay with their slings. The Greeks outdistanced them!
Johnny
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I also love sushi..!
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Hondero
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Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Reply #16 - Feb 24th, 2004 at 8:00pm
 
Yurek, just a guess: if the Larry distance record is about 430 meters with a 2 oz stone, wich will be the record with 1 oz lead glans and the same launching speed? (The weight of an arrow maybe about 1 oz or less).

Second guess: what can we do to throw this 1 oz glans with the same speed that the 2 oz projectile.

Third and last: how can we increase the launching speed of a light proyectil.

Who knows the answers will be the next worl record winner  Grin Grin
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He brought a conquering sword..., a shield..., a spear... , a sling from which no erring shot was discharged.&&
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David_T
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Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Reply #17 - Feb 24th, 2004 at 8:21pm
 
Sounds like the Japs should have stuck to the bow in WWII Grin My cousin married a great Japanese American      so any touchy people --don't think I have bad feelings Grin


LB,

Now I'm laughing.
I can picture a row of slingers gallopping toward the enemy lines, as they all begin to sling they realize they are too close together, in a tangled up mess their horses all split and leave them rolling on the ground toward the enemy where they finally come to a      y and bruised stop-- all tied together and ready to be hulled off as POWs  Grin Grin This could be a great thread to watch Grin
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David_T
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Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Reply #18 - Feb 24th, 2004 at 8:24pm
 
Wow the word B L O O D Y got censorred? And the correct spelling is "Hauled" off as POWs Roll Eyes
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LBray500
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Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Reply #19 - Feb 24th, 2004 at 9:33pm
 
Generally a lighter stone would be easier to accelerate to a higher velocity but would not have as good in-flight characteristics.  I always assumed the old records with heavier stones were released at lower velocities but carried quite well to acheive their distances.  I cannot get a heavier (3 or 4 oz+) stone up to sufficient speed in just one turn.  I can throw with several spins of the sling around my head but I never felt that it helped much except with heavier projectiles.  My delivery could be modified to include three or four spins then the final "pop" at release.  I don't see that as my best strategy, however.  

Regarding release velocity, I feel throwing a heavier stone is more a function of strength whereas a lighter stone at higher velocity has to do more with timing and technique.  That is with the sling length held constant.
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Chris
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Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Reply #20 - Feb 25th, 2004 at 2:59am
 
There is an optimal weight with projectiles.  If it's too light, the drag will slow it down to much (drag is based on shape).  If it's too heavy, you might not be able to accelerate it up to your maximum speed.  

If you think about the surface area of a CD.  If you make the diameter a half inch bigger, think about how much extra surface area you get.  Almost an entire new CD!  The same works with projectiles.  A 1 oz. gland doesn't have half the surface area as a 2 oz. one.   So for just a bit bigger projectile, you can get a lot more mass.  Which then means the drag relative to the mass is less.  I get my best ranges with heavier projectiles, around 4 oz. 

Chris
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Yahweh Bless you in Yeshua
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Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Reply #21 - Feb 25th, 2004 at 4:56am
 
Chris,  I will gather some information to send you regarding optimal ammo types for our sport.

Smiley
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mgreenfield
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Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Reply #22 - Feb 25th, 2004 at 9:54am
 
If slings can  be nothing but sloppy blunderbusses for accuracy, where did all those claims come from re slinging at a hair's breadth and not missing, and picking the exact part of the enemy's face to hit with a slingstone, and other??    Just "my slingers can beat your slingers" hot air??    If so, I'm disappointed.   Cry   mgreenfield
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Dan_Bollinger
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Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Reply #23 - Feb 25th, 2004 at 10:26am
 
Here is an exerpt from an account of Larry Forsyth, who met an old Mescalero Indian while stationed in El Paso, Texas.

"At approximately 35 yards or less his accuracy was more than equal to the fictional Ayla*. He explained that after that distance the stone lost velocity rapidly which would make kills more difficult, but his accuracy seemed barely affected. His demonstration target was the bottom metal climbing rung on an old style telephone pole which he easily hit more than 80% of the time with such extreme speed and force that the stone would fracture into small pieces while the rung itself rang like a loud, dull sounding bell. He matter-of-factly claimed similar accuracy on moving targets. To the best of his knowledge, his Mescalaro tribe had been using slings for centuries for hunting or combat and could kill a deer or warrior with equal ease."
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Hondero
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Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Reply #24 - Feb 25th, 2004 at 12:28pm
 
Larry and Chris, I agree with you that the light projectiles have bad behavior in flight, because they are restrained by the air in greater proportion than heavier ones. Although I´m not an expert in range, the projectile I prefer for reach is of about 50 gr., close to the 2 oz present record. Nevertheless the historical data are something differents.

From the distant times of the Neolithic, when the sling began to be used military, the more or less standardized projectiles  had an average weight of 35 grams. In later times the clay projectiles were continued using everywhere. The Carthaginians used them and also the mercenary troops of different origin to the service of Rome. Then, the average weight of the projectiles continues being around that weight of 35 grams. The revolution caused by lead glandes invented by the Greeks and adopted immediately by the Romans, gave rise to a very diverse manufacture of projectiles according the function wished for them, being used sometimes projectiles of around 100 grams, but the average weight, according to my investigations between different authors place them around the 40 grams. There are authors than place the average weight lower, about 30 grams. Everything depends on the examined archaelogical collections. I have a collection of 350 glandes and the average weight is 50 grams approximately, but there is a significant proportion of them of small size, of around 20 grams. It is necessary to think that these small projectiles would have been used specifically to obtain reach, because at medium ranges it would be preferred to use projectiles of greater power of impact. All this considering that the light old slings would have an approximated weight of 20-30 grams., very close to the weight of the proyectil, which was not the most advantageous condition to use this type of light projectiles. With the modern materials lighter slings can be constructed that optimize the use of these small projectiles. The experimentation is fundamental in this subject, since mathematical calcules are very complex and not much adequate to the speeds that are handled with the sling.

Dan, I didn´t know this reference, it´s nice to find a new one Smiley
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Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Reply #25 - Feb 25th, 2004 at 1:17pm
 
Here is a pic of some specialized ammo that is very promising.  It may be replicated by simple ingot casting method.  Check out the work of Victor Schauberger, once an Austrian naturalist who, upon observing brook trout remain nearly motionless against a fast moving stream, went on to produce many strange devices that appeared to exhibit negative drag or at the very least, vastly reduced drag!....wild stuff indeed! 

Here is a pic of the DynaBee Ammo which produces a very pronounced buzzing sound when first released from an ordinary sling design and quickly orients itself for very quiet, stable, accurate and fasssssst flight! Shot from a sling equipped with the correct release mechanism, it is very efficient, accurate and stable right outta the gate! :

...
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Chris
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Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Reply #26 - Feb 25th, 2004 at 1:24pm
 
As for accuracy, there is a Roman text floating out there (I forget it's name) that has comments from a Roman General.   He says the standard they used for their slingers (which were used primarily as auxiliary ranged troops) was something like a foot by foot target at 200 feet.  Or something crazy like that!  I think it's here in the forum if people are willing to search for it. 

See, what we have to keep in mind is that the level of exposure and training these people had was extraordinary.  They could handle the sling like it was a part of them.  They are sort of like current day baseball pitchers, that can aim for a very small target area at 50 feet (?) away and throw at 100+ mph.  I can't do it, but there are people that can. 

Chris
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Yahweh Bless you in Yeshua
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Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Reply #27 - Feb 25th, 2004 at 1:39pm
 
Very good point, Chris.   Quite a difference between a casual hobbyist and one who relied on the sling as a primary method of survival!   It is quite a feat to sink a basketball from full court, (just think, the ball sailing that far with only a couple inches clearance on any side!) but it's occurrence is fairly common, nowadays.  The sling is no different.  To the adept,  it is much the same as the Samurai blade to it's owner.....an extension of one's arm.  (Although I stop short at revering my sling as the 'soul' of this particular dabbler)   lol

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Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Reply #28 - Feb 25th, 2004 at 1:41pm
 
Or do I..............
Mwwwaaahaaahaaa
 


Just kidding.  I wanted to see what the glow was all about.  Kewl.
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LBray500
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Re: Accuracy Comparison & Competition?
Reply #29 - Feb 25th, 2004 at 3:19pm
 
I would be the last to question the skills of the ancient practitioners but I still believe we need to scrutinize claims with a critical eye.  Stories and accounts of great feats are much more likely to be embellished than downgraded.  

Accuracy with a sling is mainly a function of being able to release at the right moment as the pouch traces an arc in it's trajectory.  This is the same as when  throwing a baseball.  One could argue that releasing the knot is a slightly more "control-able" event than letting a ball slip out of your hand for release or on the other hand , maybe it's not.  But one could also argue that a baseball pitcher has many factors favoring their accuracy.  Namely: Stable, consistent footing; and a ball of a fixed weight with no variation from throw to throw.   If ancient cast projectiles were of consistent weight, that would help.  Pro pitchers give up the long ball when they miss their spot by 4 or 6 inches (from 60 ft 6 in).  They don' hit it every time.  The geometry involved says that someone who could hit a 6 inch target consistently at 50 ft could hope for nothing better than hitting a 2 ft target at 200 ft.  At 200 yards this equates to a 6 ft target.   Actually, performance would be worse at longer distance due to difficult to control factors such as slicing, hooking and  compensting for drop.  A 1 ft by 1 ft target at 200 ft approaches the what seems believable.  More accurate than that...  I don't think so.

In summary, I tend to discount claims of slings being more precise than what the best professional baseball pitcher could acheive, as their skills are also products of lifelong practice.  They also comprise the very best few at the pointy end of the skill spectrum.   I'm sure the ancient ones were very, very good.  But I long ago learned to not believe everything I hear.  

(Sorry for being a critic, I hate critics)
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