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Ammo storage:cloak or bag (Read 11099 times)
Johnny
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Ammo storage:cloak or bag
Feb 3rd, 2004 at 10:13am
 
Trajans column depicts slingers holding their stones in their cloaks. I have seen German slingers doing the same. What reference, written or pictorial, indicates that slingers kept their stones in a leather bag(yes, I know about David and his shepherds bag!).
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Hondero
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Re: Ammo storage:cloak or bag
Reply #1 - Feb 3rd, 2004 at 7:53pm
 

Yes, it is not easy to find an historical text or figuration of a slinger  with his bag. The slingers represented in the Trajan column are Roman and used that type of clothes that allowed to lodge the projectiles in its folds, which had  to be enough uncomfortable and not  reliable at the moment of throwing. Other people, like the Balearic ones, used clothes more reduced and the most appropiate would be the use of a bag. There is a source in regard to the bag of the Balearics, but I don´t remember it now. I see that in your illustrations you represent them with the projectiles in folds of the cloak, in the Roman way, but it seems to me unlikely. I must recover that source that I say. It either does not seem probable that they used a shield, that would be counter-productive for his great mobility as skirmishers, and much more at the moment of throwing. But it is not easy to find out as they were exactly the things, and your work is both very difficult and exciting, because it demands a lot of research and documentation. I like very much the Balearic slingers figuration from Angus McBride, that I imagine you know.
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Johnny
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Re: Ammo storage:cloak or bag
Reply #2 - Feb 4th, 2004 at 7:55am
 
Hondero
Thanks for the reply. I would like to know the source for the bag. Try to find that if you can. I have wondered about the cloak and shield. It would seem difficult to use with the sling!
Thanks again
Johnny
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Re: Ammo storage:cloak or bag
Reply #3 - Feb 4th, 2004 at 3:27pm
 
Jonny,

I had seen your paintigs before you came here. These are beautiful! I also wondered how that guy is able to cary 15 kg or so glandes in his cloak when simultaneosly keeps the heavy shield, slings or loads the pouch. I'm sure a lot of people don't notice that, they simply are enjoying your art. Anyway I like them very much! I understand the convention.

Greeting,

Jurek
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In the shape, structure and position of each stone, there is recorded a small piece of history. So, slinging them, we add a bit of our history to them.
 
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Re: Ammo storage:cloak or bag
Reply #4 - Feb 4th, 2004 at 3:33pm
 
Thanks Jurek
I have wondered the same! That illustration is based on the slinger from Trajans column. I would like to make a shield and cloak to see if this is feasible or artistic myth! Has anyone tried to load with one hand? It would seem hard to do!
Thanks again!
Johnny
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Chris
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Re: Ammo storage:cloak or bag
Reply #5 - Feb 4th, 2004 at 4:07pm
 
As far as I know, slingers rarely (or never) had shields.  They were primarily used as auxiliary troops under the Romans.  In really ancient battles (Sumerian, Assyrian, etc.), they were never meant to be exposed to cavalry or infantry, making shields an extra burden.  Do people know of any archers that carried shields and a melee weapon? 

Chris
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Re: Ammo storage:cloak or bag
Reply #6 - Feb 7th, 2004 at 7:06am
 
Loading with one hand is not as hard as it sounds.  It just takes some practice.  One methodmentioned on the old forum was to simply dangle the pouch so that it rests open on the ground, and, using the ground as a "third hand", to place the stone in the center and take the slack back up carefully, and fire as usual.  This method is somewhat similar to the way we were taught to load a pistol one-handed if wounded at the U.S. Federal Law Enforcement Training Center.

There are other ways to fumble, or juggle a stone into a pouch, but this one is one of the better methods I have tried.
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Slinging.org people are progressive preservers of pre-historic protective, pantry-packing, and post-paleolithic parabellum practices...and they're also generally REALLY COOL!  Their bootlaces are their arsenal, and the world is their ammo dump!
 
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Re: Ammo storage:cloak or bag
Reply #7 - Feb 7th, 2004 at 7:13am
 
I read somewhere that "Peltast" was the name used to describe slingers, javelin throwers, archers, etc. because it was the name of the shield that they carried in ancient Greek times.  Some writer even commented on how funny it was when some peltasts got hung up by their shields which were hung across their backs, when trying to climb up something, and were just dagling there helplessly duirn a battle.  I also saw a picture of a hooded peltast with a sling, some small javelins, a round shield and short sword or dagger of some sort, as I recall.  The book claimed they were used a s skirmishers.  It was some sort of encyclodaepia series on ancient warfare that I found in the ARAMCO library at the Ras Tanura training in Saudi Arabia.
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Slinging.org people are progressive preservers of pre-historic protective, pantry-packing, and post-paleolithic parabellum practices...and they're also generally REALLY COOL!  Their bootlaces are their arsenal, and the world is their ammo dump!
 
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Re: Ammo storage:cloak or bag
Reply #8 - Feb 7th, 2004 at 11:20am
 
Magnumslinger,  I'd read that too.  As I recall, all members of the military were expected to participate in skirmish's.

The Bayeux tapestry shows what I believe to be a military slinger throwing a stone at some birds with his right hand while holding a long shield in his left.

Long tall shields with pointed bottoms were used as portable protection. The pointed end could be thrust into the ground for a man to hide behind. Perfect for slingers and archers who need both hands free.
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Re: Ammo storage:cloak or bag
Reply #9 - Feb 7th, 2004 at 1:51pm
 
As to Chris' question about archers carrying shields and other weapons, I do know that English archers in the Hundred Years War used, along with their enormous bows, long steel swords, and things known as ballock knives, long daggers, essentially.  I think that they also had small shields,  whose name I can't remember but will check up on. They were strapped to the arm, rather than hand held, so perhaps this is the way a slinger could have a shield.  And for a slinger it is very advisable to have other weapons in war time, because a sling is no use in close combat, and in the case of ambushes, they would be useless as soldiers.  Unlike English archers, who, in the final stages of the battle of Agincourt, drew their swords and jumped into the melee with French knights (and won, incidentally).  So other weapons and shields do not seem unlikely.
  As to the question of whether bags or cloaks are better, I have no idea; I always use my pockets or a small pouch, and have no idea about the advantages of a cloak.
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Re: Ammo storage:cloak or bag
Reply #10 - Feb 7th, 2004 at 2:19pm
 
Interesting discussion. Magnum, the name of Peltasta strictly refer to the throwers of javelins or short lances, of around one meter and a half, of which they took several ones behind the shield, that was of reduced size. They were skirmishers like the slingers, but different in general, like the archers, forming the light troops. The javelin of peltastas normally had a strap that allow to send them to greater distance, performing  like an flexible atlatl (it was called amentum). The pictures in armament books cannot be always taken like veridical source of information, because they are feed on very different and in general secondary sources. But who knows, maybe in some occasions there were slingers with shield, but it seems to me more probable in later time like the medieval one, where the military tactics would be something different. I also know an engraving from century XIV representing the Battle of Nájera, where it appears a slinger with a small shield facing several archers with longbows (without shields, English  Smiley).

Dan, it seems to me that the slinger from Bayeux tapestry  does not take a shield. He is a boy hunting birds and perhaps his extended left hand  is a little great and it is lent to confusion. You will remember that the drawing was discussed in the old forum and the picture that we had was very bad. I found a good one finally Wink.

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« Last Edit: Feb 11th, 2004 at 4:44pm by Hondero »  

He brought a conquering sword..., a shield..., a spear... , a sling from which no erring shot was discharged.&&
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Dan_Bollinger
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Re: Ammo storage:cloak or bag
Reply #11 - Feb 7th, 2004 at 3:01pm
 
Hondero, yes, I remember that old discussion. If you have a good picture I'd like to see it. If nothing else, for my files. Dan
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Johnny
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Re: Ammo storage:cloak or bag
Reply #12 - Feb 7th, 2004 at 3:22pm
 
I don't believe the slinger on Trajan's column is fiction. If you look at the details of the other soldiers it is correct with what has been discovered. I know it looks very strange to hold a shield, stones in your cloak, load with one hand and hurl at the same time! But these men grew up doing this every day. It is like anything, the more you practice, the better you get!
Johnny
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uRe: Ammo storage:cloak or bag
Reply #13 - Feb 7th, 2004 at 7:54pm
 
Dan, I´ll put the photo here but... I´m interested in the prehistoric slinger under your name, ha ha. Can you put a bigger image too? Wich is the source?
Saludos
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Re: Ammo storage:cloak or bag
Reply #14 - Feb 7th, 2004 at 8:11pm
 
Sure, Anything for a slinging buddy! Everyone is free to use this image. It is large, but the file size is low. I scanned this image and cleaned it up from Arther Ferrill's "The Origins of War", p. 24.

"This depiction from the early Neolithic settlement at Catal Huyuk in modern Turkey shows that the sling was used in Neolithic times."


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