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Cestrosphendone (Read 199197 times)
DuckofDeath
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Re: Cestrosphendon
Reply #195 - Jun 19th, 2006 at 2:38pm
 
Hondero, you got me curious enough to go back and read the passage in an old Loeb Classical Library edition of Livy.  Here's what precedes the description of the cestrosphendone:

"...he withdrew the soldiers, who were dismayed by the sudden arrival of the enemy, to a nearby hill, intending to defend himself by the strength of the position since he was no match in numbers and power.  There when he had gathered his soldiers in a circle, so that with their close-packed shields they could protect themselves from the blows of arrows and javelins, Perseus, with his men-at-arms surrounding the hill, ordered some to try the ascent from all sides and join battle at close quarters, others to hurl weapons from a distance.  A terrific threat surrounded the Romans, for when massed they could not thrust back those who were struggling up the hill, and whenever they broke ranks by charging forward, they were exposed to javelins and arrows."

The next line--introducing the description of the cestrosphendone--reads:  "They suffered particularly from the dart-slings."

I related this to their entire predicament,  the "terrific threat" that surrounded them as described in the preceding sentence.  When they were bunched up, they would have been vulnerable to darts raining down on them from a high trajectory, but when they advanced they opened themselves up to flatter trajectory arrows and javelins.  Because the "suffered particularly from the dart-slings" follows upon "they were exposed to arrows and javelins," I can see how others might interpret the dart-sling as a flatter trajectory weapon seemingly included with the arrows and javelins.      
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Hondero
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Re: Cestrosphendon
Reply #196 - Jun 19th, 2006 at 4:27pm
 
DuckofDeath, I´m not sure if I´ve understood you (ahhh, my english...Roll Eyes), but Livy says "when massed they could not thrust back those who were struggling up the hill (not that they were exposed to raining down darts), and whenever they broke ranks by charging forward, they were exposed to javelins and arrows" (and cestros too). The Macedonian were superior in number and power, says Livy, and for that the Romans had to avoid they came up the hill for a close quarter battle, but if they broke ranks for charging forward from his advantageous position on the hill, they were exposed to the Roman missiles...
Well, these classic texts are exciting. Thanks to comment it, its a good way to discover a little more about weapons and tactics Wink
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DuckofDeath
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Re: Cestrosphendon
Reply #197 - Jun 20th, 2006 at 2:50pm
 
Hondero, your English as a second language is better than a good many people's English as a first language.  When I first read the Livy passage years ago, my subjective interpretation of how such damage could be done was that the darts were raining from a high trajectory into a densely packed formation.  This was probably because my own slinging as a young man was exclusively underhand distance slinging, trying to hit boulders on the other side of a wide river.  The gravity-aided force with which the stones came down from their high trajectories made quite an impression on me of the damage that could be done to a human target.  Now imagine finned spikes coming down from a high trajectory into a closely-packed formation of men. 

You are quite right that the text doesn't specifically point out that darts rained down into the formation on the hilltop.  However, I find it curious that the darts weren't mentioned in the two "arrows and javelins" phrases in the passage.  The text states that the Romans circled up with raised shields to protect themselves against "arrows and javelins," not "arrows, javelins, and darts."  When they broke ranks and charged forward, they were exposed to "javelins and arrows," not "javelins, arrows, and darts."  If the darts had been launched in unison with the arrows and javelins, it seems the text would have read something along the lines of "when they charged forward, they were exposed to javelins, arrows, and darts.  They suffered particularly from the darts..."

Darn!  I've got to go to work now.  I'll share more on this fascinating subject later.            
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DuckofDeath
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Re: Cestrosphendon
Reply #198 - Jun 21st, 2006 at 2:20pm
 
The Loeb Classical Library edition of Livy has the Latin on the left hand page and the English translation on the right hand page.  I've xeroxed the relevant passage, and although my Latin is poor, I'm going to try to pick my way through some wording that may shed more light on the narrative.

Hondero, does the article say how much that dart weighed?  How much does yours weigh?  Also, you reported that your dart was hanging up.  If you wrapped the cord around just two fins instead of all three, it looks like there would be much less friction.  Is the problem that two fins might break under the stress of the spin, and that the force has to be borne by all three fins?
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Hondero
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Re: Cestrosphendon
Reply #199 - Jun 21st, 2006 at 3:32pm
 
DuckofDeath, I´m out of home this week, even without a dictionary (I feel lost) but I promise you to answer your questions soon. The weight of the cestros point can be calculated easily, in fact I have some bolts of similar size. If you can translate latin text of Livy, is interesting the exact meaning of "he gathered his soldiers in a circle, so that with their close-packed shields.." because there are two ways of packing the shields: frontal around like a circular wall or over the heads like a ceiling, and so to know if the cestros were thrown like a massive rain or like accuracy shots
I´ll be here soon...
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« Last Edit: Jun 22nd, 2006 at 1:04pm by Hondero »  

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Zwiebeltuete
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Re: Cestrosphendon
Reply #200 - Jun 21st, 2006 at 4:58pm
 
If you need a latin dictionary I can recommend following software:

http://users.erols.com/whitaker/words.htm

It is free, knows the grammar of single words and has an amazing number of words. So as long as you have internet access (or later a notebook) it doesn't matter if you are out of home without dictionary.

Zwiebeltuete
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Re: Cestrosphendon
Reply #201 - Jun 21st, 2006 at 9:12pm
 
Thanks. I've been looking for a Latin-English dictionary forever....
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DuckofDeath
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Re: Cestrosphendon
Reply #202 - Jun 22nd, 2006 at 2:13pm
 
Quote:
"There when he had gathered his soldiers in a circle, so that with their close-packed shields they could protect themselves from the blows of arrows and javelins, Perseus, with his men-at-arms surrounding the hill, ordered some to try the ascent from all sides and join battle at close quarters, others to hurl weapons from a distance.  A terrific threat surrounded the Romans, for when massed they could not thrust back those who were struggling up the hill, and whenever they broke ranks by charging forward, they were exposed to javelins and arrows."


Here's the corresponding Latin text:

"Ibi cum in orbem milites coegisset, ut densatis scutis ab ictu sagittarum et iaculorum sese tuerentur, Perseus circumdato armatis tumulo alios ascensum undique temptare iubet et comminus proelium conserere, alios eminus tela ingerere.  Ingens Romanos terror circumstabat; nam neque conferti propellere eos qui in tumulum conitebantur poterant et, ubi ordines procursando solvissent, patebant iaculis sagittisque." 
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DuckofDeath
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Re: Cestrosphendon
Reply #203 - Jul 16th, 2006 at 3:22am
 
Some random cogitations on Livy...

The text states that the Romans made a circle to protect themselves against the blows of arrows and javelins, indicating that perhaps as they were being surrounded by the Macedonians they were already being assailed by those weapons.  (The translation seems to match the Latin text fairly well.) Now here's the interesting part:  After the Romans had their shields up to protect against arrows and javelins, Perseus orders some of his men to attack and others to "hurl weapons from a distance."  The infinitive translated "hurl" is ingerere, and one of its meanings is "to throw into or upon a place," perhaps suggesting concentrated fire into or upon the packed Roman formation.  The word "weapons" is tela, from telum, literally "missile weapon"; the
cestrosphendone is subsequently described as a teli, a form of telum.  It would seem that other tela were brought into play after the initial attacks by bow and javelin.

     
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DuckofDeath
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Re: Cestrosphendon
Reply #204 - Jul 16th, 2006 at 3:36am
 
Another cogitation:

funda media duo scutalia imparia habebat

media can be taken as an ablative form, i.e., "from [its] middle," so the phrase can be translated word for word as

"[the] sling from [its] middle two cords unequal had."

In other words, the "middle of the sling" is the pouch or cradle of the sling, or something that would correspond to the pouch or cradle, and the two cords--equal on a conventional sling--are unequal on the cestrosphendone.
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siguy
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Re: Cestrosphendon
Reply #205 - Jul 16th, 2006 at 7:17pm
 
that's really interesting
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Hondero
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Re: Cestrosphendon
Reply #206 - Jul 17th, 2006 at 2:29am
 
Duckof Death, good try with Latin,  but the stuff  remains problematic for me.  I´ve seen differents translations of the same phrases and perhaps one have to use the logic besides the  translations.  The famous "funda media duo scutalia imparia habebat" is translated literally for some authors so: "The sling had in the middle two different thongs"  and the admitted meaning is: "The sling had in the pouch two different thongs". If the author wanted to say that the cords of the sling were of differente length It  had merely said : "Funda duo scutalia imparia habebat". But he say that the "scutalia" were in the middle of the sling, and this  suggest that he wanted to specify something different. Some authors think that there were two little thongs in the pouch to fasten the dart and others that the word "scutalia" means in general " piece of leather" and that it was used to name the pouch too. So, the latin text could mean: "The sling had two different pouches in the middle".   
Well, it´s not easy to guess the truth...
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siguy
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Re: Cestrosphendon
Reply #207 - Jul 17th, 2006 at 12:18pm
 
well i will be taking latin when school starts back up here so maybe i will be of more help then.  or perhaps i can get my tacher to take a stab at it
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DuckofDeath
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Re: Cestrosphendon
Reply #208 - Jul 20th, 2006 at 2:05pm
 
Quote:
well i will be taking latin when school starts back up here so maybe i will be of more help then.  or perhaps i can get my tacher to take a stab at it


Thanks, and let us know what you find out.

Are there any Greek scholars out there?  According to the English translations I've read of Polybius and Livy, Livy seems to omit and distort what was recorded in Polybius' earlier account.  Polybius has the fins "in the middle" of the dart or shaft, whereas Livy leaves out any reference to the "middle" of the dart or shaft.  Polybius has the shaft being inserted into the head of the weapon, specifying that the shank and point of the head were of equal length.  Livy simply has the point being inserted into the shaft, pilum-style.

My point is that if Livy or Livy's source omitted and distorted what is found in Polybius' account, the ambiguity surrounding the funda media business might be the result of such a distortion.  So if there are any Greek scholars out there, let us know what you find out too.      
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Re: Cestrosphendon
Reply #209 - Jul 21st, 2006 at 8:50am
 
I've done Greek GCSE, so I could take a stab, but don't expect great things.
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