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The Scorpion (Read 6048 times)
Whipartist
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The Scorpion
Jan 16th, 2004 at 7:29pm
 
I've been wanting to show you guys some of the other things I've been interested in and made for some time, but I haven't gotten the chance.  Well I have it now and this item fits very well on slinging.org.  I just put up another page on my webpage about the Roman scorpion. 

...

Maybe this gives some of you guys who are good with wood working, an idea.  I'm planning on making another myself.  I designed and made this model, a few years ago.  It stands 17" tall.

...

The original scorpions were invented by the Greeks and then adopted, modified, and upgraded by the Romans.  You can see why they called them scorpions.... 


Each Roman Legion would haul one around on a mule drawn cart, and they were effective long range weapons.  They could hurl a heavy steel tipped spear like dart, several hundred meters.  Needless to say, anything in it's path would be decimated.  They could easily break through an enemy's lines from long range and they were quite accurate. 


The power source was twisted sinew rope at the base of the arms.  They stood around 5' tall average, though there were larger and smaller ones as well. 


Throught the Greek and Roman Empires, there were several designs that gained favor.  This one is just my "middle of the road" version.

...   

This model works very well.  I designed it to work, yet it far outperformed my expectations.  It has a range of 130 yards!  It puts a deep hole into my fence boards, and that, without a steel tip on the rounded, blunt arrows.  I want to soon upgrade to hickory arms, and then wind the skeins tighter for even more range.  It hasn't yet seen near it's fullest potential.  I expect to be able to squeeze 200 or more yards out of it with the hickory arms.  The arms I got on there now are plain old birch. 


It is very durable and can easily handle a very heavy bow weight.  The cord that draws back the arrow trough, is tied to the top of the trigger latch support screw.  So the tension is all on the nylon rope (string) and not on the wood.  I did this so that I could bring the limits of bow weight up very high without stressing any of the important, hard to replace, components.


It is also quite accurate.  The front latch screw is used as a sight, in combination with the end of the trough.  I can hit a paperplate sized target at 30 yards pretty easily.


The skeins are made of nylon string.  It's amazing stuff.  I've had those skeins wound rock hard tight for several years and they never loose their power or decompose under the constant stress.


The darts are made of bamboo chopsticks, with paper fins. 

Now, that's my show and tell for today, but I have a question maybe somebody will know where to direct me, maybe not. 

I plan on making another one of these, but this time a very small one.  Perhaps 6" or 8" high.  Does anyone know where a guy can buy miniature hardwood "lumber" online?  For model making.  I've been looking, but haven't found anything.  I'd need a lot of small assorted sizes, so I wouldn't have to do too much of my own alterations on them.  I can't afford all the micro tools that some dudes use, but if I can get the right wood, I can do a lot of hand work to make things fit together right and work.

Oh yeah, there is a rather poor represntation of Scorpions in the opening scenes of Gladiator.  They fire too slowly and the darts they are loaded with are oversized, compared to the historical ones.  Oh well, great movie otherwise!   

                                           Ben
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Chris
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Re: The Scorpion
Reply #1 - Jan 17th, 2004 at 12:25am
 
Very sweet!  Maybe I'll get around to showing you guys my trebuchet.

Chris
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justbarak
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Re: The Scorpion
Reply #2 - Jan 17th, 2004 at 1:52pm
 
Wow.  I am very impressed.  It's an ingenious idea - I've not seen twisted rope used as the propellant.  What kind of work shop do you have.  It's really well made. 

Is Nylon considered static or dynamic rope (stretchy or not).  I wonder how it function using climbing rope that was dynamic versus climbing rope that was static;  which do you think would be better?  dyramic rope would eventually loose it's stretchyness, but it might have more potential energy than a static rope.  Do you know what the lb pull is on it?

If you have a video camera or a digital camera with a video option, it would be sweet to see it in action.

Barak
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Re: The Scorpion
Reply #3 - Jan 17th, 2004 at 6:49pm
 
Chris,

Hey that would be really cool to see video of your trebuchet.  If you have that option, post a video in the video section.  I love the slings on trebuchets.  I think a lot of the Roman catapults had slings attached too.  That's cool.  

Barak,

My workshop is bare essentials.  I got a workbench from my Grandfather.  The whole surface is almost black from cigar ashes and whatever else he did with it.  It's my favorite tool.  Drill press, jigsaw, and files.  Other than that, not much.  Well actually I also inherited a tablesaw from the 60's.  But I never have use for it for most of the stuff I make.  

The Scorpion could easily be made in most any size.  If you're thinking about making a bigger one, I wouldn't go over about 3' tall.  Over that and you're going to start getting into bow weights of maybe several hundred pounds.  Atleast I'm guessing so.

If you didn't catch it, the whole arrow trough slides forward and backwards within the body.  You probably got that.  I think there is a good website up about these things now, but I don't know the address.  They even have blueprints for several designs from what I've seen.

You know, that thought about ropes is interesting. Nylon has some stretch to it forsure.  The wooden frame is very heavy in relation to the forces placed upon it from the string's tension.  You have to experiment with different quantities and tensions of rope.  Start off small and tight.  Too much rope ends up being almost impossible to twist and you can't get the tension to be consistent over the full travel of the arm.  The originals back in Rome used to use sinew.  It had problems in wet weather, but otherwise, was very powerful stuff from what I've read.  The upright vertical arm catapults worked by the same powersource.  Trebuchets were a midevil thing and were gigantic and not maneuverable because of all the weight.  The Roman's called their vertical arm catapults "onagers"  I think I spelled that right.  It means "wild ass."  Because they jumped up off the ground when they fired.  That's a lot more dynamic than what you see in the opening scenes of Gladiator!  

I've had that string tensed at full tightness for about 3 or more years now and I use the thing occasionally.  It never looses power or shows any signs of degeneration in the coils.  I'm impressed with the nylon.  That was one of the things I was worried about when I first made it.  That I wouldn't be able to get a good powersource.  The nylon works great!  

One cool thing about Scorpions, is that depending upon how far you set the trough back, you can vary your power between safe indoor fun, and lean mean outdoors target shooting.  It's great to see the darts fly through the air.  It's beautiful.  I put a slight bend on the fletchings and they spiral in flight.

I'm guessing my bow weight is around 20 to 30 pounds but it could be more.  The darts are pretty light and so they fly fast.  You'll notice the brass pipes at the bases of the bow arms.  I put those on there because my first two sets of arms literally crushed and broke under the power of the string coils.  It bit right through them.

I was just thinking.  I don't know much about rock climbing but that dynamic rope you're talking about is probably too dynamic for catapult use.  The static might be better.  Probably the best is plain old nylon rope from the harware store.  Or paracord or something like that.  I've seen some guy use sisal rope on that website.  I think that's what it's called anyway.  You know, the vegetable fiber stuff.   

                                  Ben    
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JeffH
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Re: The Scorpion
Reply #4 - Jan 19th, 2004 at 12:03am
 
Dynamic climbing rope would not work well until it was almost at its breaking point.  You need rope that only stretches a little and therefore resists the stretch.  this allow it to put energy into the arrow, not into itself as it flexes back to original length.

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Re: The Scorpion
Reply #5 - Feb 5th, 2004 at 12:34pm
 
That scorpion design is very impressive!  Do you also have a precision aiming system for it?  How did the ancient Greeks and Romans aim it?

You might be able to sell scoped pickup truck bed-mounted versions of this for quiet, long range pest control on ranches and farms Grin!
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Re: The Scorpion
Reply #6 - Feb 10th, 2004 at 3:18pm
 
What I would really like to see is a nice big picture of the release mechanism.  I have been making a few crossbows, all different types of release, and I was wondering what kind of mechanism you were using.  Any chance you could oblige?
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Re: The Scorpion
Reply #7 - Feb 12th, 2004 at 3:23pm
 
I aim with the release screw, off the end of the arrow ramp.  It's like the reverse of a pistol, with the post at the back. 

The release is pretty simple, very similar to the originals, except slightly more simple.  I just pivot the steel release from the middle, and put a lever underneath the back end with a post coming out of the slide to hold one end in place.  When I wish to fire, I pull the cord on the lever and it slides out from under the release, allowing the front end of the release to elevate and let go of the string.  The arrow is blocked by a little steel post from touching the release in the slot, otherwise it might get lifted too.

This design was used on Scorpions, because it is very durable, without having a heavy "trigger pull."  And there is no chance of a misfire, since the string is held above the arrow groove and behind a piece of steel that goes into the groove.

                            Ben
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Re: The Scorpion
Reply #8 - Feb 29th, 2004 at 12:06am
 
How did you make all the metal parts? Did you forge them yourself?
Johnny
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Re: The Scorpion
Reply #9 - Mar 17th, 2004 at 12:09am
 
Johhny,

Yeah, they were just cold rolled steel from the hardware store.  It can be formed cold, or with a little heat to help relieve any stress from the bends.  The rest is just filing and sandpaper. 

A few weeks ago, my wrists were feeling better for a time.  Then they got much worse.  During that time, I, probably unwisely, did an upgrade on my Scorpion.  I added a much improved windlass that uses a pulley to reduce draw weight.  A ratchet, and bronze fittings. 

I also upgraded my bow arms to hickory, with bronze sleeves for added support.  This increased their weight, but allowed me to significantly upgrade the bow weight. 

So I made new torsion skeins that are twice the size of the originals.  I also fitted some bronze washers to carry the skein and upgraded the size of some of the steel bars. 

I made new bolts, and was able to purchase some steel target points to fit on the ends. 

The results are awesome!  I tested it a few days ago and got a maximum range of 155 yards.  At 30 yards in my backyard today, I was sending the arrows through an 133 page JC Penny Catalog.  The arrows went right through it and into the target behind.

I'll put up some new pictures here.  I already put one up in the first post, but I took some this afternoon, to put up. 

                                                Ben
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Re: The Scorpion
Reply #10 - Mar 17th, 2004 at 1:47am
 
Here are the new pictures I just put up on my webpage. 

                       Ben

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I am excited to get some rare books about Ancient Scorpions by Eric W. Marsden.  They are on the way now, and I'm lucky I found them.  They'lll give me lots to study so I'll be ready to make full sized Scorpions someday.  Of course, I must first become independently wealthy, and get a good shooting range atleast 400 yards long.  On recently test with full sized models made by A. Wilkins, the bow weight was over 730 lbs.  He said that the maximum weight hadn't yet been achieved, because he was trying to be safety conscious.


                                             Ben
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Chris
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Re: The Scorpion
Reply #11 - Mar 24th, 2004 at 1:17am
 
Very impressive.

Chris
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Re: The Scorpion
Reply #12 - Mar 24th, 2004 at 3:54pm
 
Do you live in suburbia?  I'm just imagining the look on a neighbor's face, looking out his window and seeing  a siege weapon pointed at his house. Grin Wink
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Re: The Scorpion
Reply #13 - Mar 24th, 2004 at 9:02pm
 
LOL,

Well it's pretty small, so..., but the other day, I set back the winch to just 15 clicks (about 1/3) draw back.  And tried to shoot up at about 55 degrees for a nice graceful slow shot across my backyard.  The thing shot over 35 yards into my neighbor's backyard.  I swallowed hard, and was able to use a magnet on a really long pole, to retrieve the arrow the next day.  I should have known, but I thought it would have less power than that on 1/3 draw back.  My back yard has a big field behind it and is about 40 yards across, so it makes up for the fact that I do live at the edge of suburbia.

                                      Ben
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Re: The Scorpion
Reply #14 - Apr 12th, 2004 at 1:05am
 
Impressive!!
*Nice craftmanship*!!


Viscount Niklos
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