Ben is here all the time, just under the name "Whipartist".  I'm sure he, and others, can tell you everything you need to know.

Welcome to the forum,
Chris

Barak,

Welcome to the forum.  It sounds like you're advanced already!  What circumstances caused you to grow up in such diverse places?  If you can, send some pictures of some slings you've made to Chris and he'll put them on the gallery page too.

As for the cradles, Jim Burdine makes traditional Andean split cradles.  I'm not sure how advanced he's gotten with patterns, but he makes them.  I never liked making them myself, because it's difficult to stop the color from the underneath strands from coming through.  The only way to prevent that is to use quite a few strands for your wefts (I think that's the right word).  I mean that you have to gather quite a few strands together so that your cradle looks nice, and is thick and wide enough.  Then after you make the cradle, what do you do with the extra strands?  Well this is why traditional Andean slings have thick braids adjacent to the cradle.  Typically 24 I think, but perhaps 32 sometimes. 

Besides the typical braiding, as you know, there are other ways that Andean's and others made slings.  Zebra wraps and so on.  That's a whole different ball of yarn.  I prefer the braids, but I never liked having to do such wide braids adjacent to the cradle.  The reason is, because they can't be continued to the end of the cords and so you must drop off atleast 8 strands--all of the sudden--and still make the whole thing look good.  As I've seen in pictures, even the Peruvians have some trouble with that.  So I worked out my own design that requires less strands.

The black and white sling uses a 16 strand cradle and 16 strand braids for the cords.  No strand dropping.

I get questions about this, so it's good for me to lay everything out here to save myself the trouble of writing it again.

I made the cradle with a knotting technique I learned in a friendship bracelet book I got from the craft store, years ago.  I heared there are websites about it, but I've never seen any.  Boyscout or girlscout or something like that.  Look up "friendship bracelet knotting."  I'll send anyone who's interested, pictures from the book, on the basic techniques- just email me Whipartist@aol.com.  They aren't great pictures but you can learn from them.  You can see a few more pictures of my sling at www.whipartist.com. ; I'll post some of them here.

I use a knotting technique called V knotting.  Each half of the cradle is composed of two sections that knot together in the middle at a V like angle.  You can just knot from left to right at an angle or from right to left at an angle, but if you adjoin the two angles you are able to make a more detailed product.  Actually there are many complex patterns you can knot, but I stick with some of the more basic stuff because I think it looks better and produces a more solid cradle. 

The complex part isn't the knotting, it's the actual cradle design.  That took a few years before I really figured out how to do it right.  My earlier slings tended to fray and wear at the edges because they were exposed to the greatest wear.  Now I construct the cradles in a different way in order to make them durable.  The inside of each side of the cradle has an extra section of material I use as a "wear pad" to take the wear of rock slinging from the main pouch.  It also acts as a natural hinge and allows the cradle to naturally work in either an open or closed position.  It's pretty cool.

Basically I split the pouch into two 8 strand sections from the split cradle, that adjoin into one 10 strand section that goes over one 6 strand "wear pad" and then encompasses it as I knot it together before forming the cords. It's side by side 8&8, then over under 10&6, then the strands from the 10 knot around the 6, then I do some knotted wrapping, then I do the cords.  I convert from the split cradle into the 10over6s by taking each side of the cradle, dropping 3 strands from the inside of each side, and then continue knotting the two sections together into the 10 strand adjoining section (leaving the 6 strands hanging underneath).  After I do that, I turn the thing over and knot the other 6 strands that were hanging underneath. 

Now it would be impossible to bring two V V sections together, so I fill in the section inbetween with knotting to change the angle from VV to a big V again.  I can't explain that, but if you figure out the other knotting, I think this section may become more clear to you with a little practice. I think you'll be able to figure it out between the text and the pictures.

Lastly, I forgot to add earlier, that I start each section of the cradle from the middle.  This way everything looks symetrical.  I have to do some more of that "fill knotting" to make it work, but it does.  Some patterns work better than others for that.  I hope this helps.  It will make more sense after you've tried to do the knotting yourself.  Write me and I'll send you those pictures of the book's pages.

Lastly, lastly.  I put a few drops of elmers glue on the places on the inside of the cradle that take the most wear.  It works very well to reduce wear down, though the design is durable anyway.  You can see in the first picture where the glue is. 







Hope that helps
                                               Ben

Barak,

I knew your parents were missionaries.  That's why I asked    I'm glad it was such a positive experience for you, that you've decided to spend your life that way aswell.

Your skills in sling braiding are apparently extensive.  I suspected that too.  I'm very excited about your website!!  You're right that if a knotted cradle get's a strand cut, it can cause a gap in a section.  It tends to not unravel, but let just one key separate from another.  That's why I altered my design to make the extra pad on the inside of the sling.  Originally, when I just split the flatbraid (knotting), the edges would wear off on the release side of the cradle.  Now wear isn't a problem, and even if the pad were to wear mostly through in a few years, it still wouldn't hurt the overall strength of the cradle.  I've done some abrasion experiments to make sure.  I especially like the knotted cradle because of the hinge effect that the pad creates.  It's hard to show in pictures but the split sections open and close without causing crimping on the inside or outside of the sections.  I kinda stumbled upon it after a lot of experimentation.    

With the traditional method, it's easy enough to add the strands for the extra thick braids adjacent to the cradle, but the hard part seems to be to cut them out on the other side of the cradle.  Not hard I mean, but messy.  Most of the Andean slings I've seen just leave them hanging there as neatly as possible.  So I think you're wise to wrap off the joint.  I was thinking of doing it that way originally, but still I disliked the lack of symmetry.  It's no big deal though, now that I think about it.  It indicates which cord is your release.  

The other thing with the traditional method is that you can start with your fingerloop and work up from one side.  I start from the middle of the sling and tie off my fingerloops when I get to them.  I like a double loop so that works for me.  I find the simple flat braid I use is the softest and easiest on the finger.  I used to use a round braid but I got blisters.  It's an 8 strand braid done like a 3 strand braid.  Outside to the middle.  

You braid in another 16 to 32 strands for the thicker sections!  Whoah!  48 strands.  Do you have a core when you do that?  I'm curious how long it takes you to make a sling?  I don't have a Maru Dai, I use a card, and it takes me 20 hours atleast.  

I've been wanting to make another sling, but I've been too busy with other projects.  I couldn't find some good alpaca wool either, and I intended to use traditional colors.  I was going to do a typical cradle, probably without too much that's fancy about it, and then go from the spiral diamond--like on the one I made--to a reversing spiral stripe.  The spiral diamond doesn't go into a reversing spiral, but I found I could do some strand shifting and make the transition really nice.

It's really cool to have another sling maker on our forum. Stick around!  I'm very curious to see your work, I'm sure it must be beautiful  

Jim Burdine is here on the forum with us as Jimb.

BTW, if anyone wants pictures on how to do the knotting technique, write me and I'll send them to you.  I got my scanner working and scanned them this afternoon.
                                     
Ben

Humm... it's that kind of talk that makes me realize that there are some areas of slinging that go right over my head.   

Barak, this site you're developing sounds great.  If you need a place to host it online, I'll accommodate you.  There is lots of general sling information out there, but very little on braided slings.  I've wanted to put together a small article on how to make a simple pouched sling, with step by step photos, but haven't found the time yet.  Between the two of us, and the content contributions from a number of other members, we're rapidly filling the informational void for slinging.

Chris

Barak,

Hey, 20-40 hours.  Whoah!  It takes an incredible amount of patience to make slings.  I also watch a lot of movies while I'm doing it.  The hard part is if you loose your count while doing one of the fancy braids! 

What I meant by symetrical is the pattern of colors on the cradle.  If I don't start from the right place, there ends up being a transition on one side and it makes the cradle not match in color.  The shape wouldn't be effected much if at all if I started from one side.  It's the nature of the knotting that you must start somewhere in the middle and do the cords last, because it goes ouward, not inward.

The card method works pretty well.  The disadvantage is that you have to empty slots before you can shift strands.  So it adds little half steps to the whole thing.  With the Maru Dai, you can just braid outright.  The good thing about the card is that it is so similar to doing it in your hand that you can learn to do it in your hand in time, just from practice with the card.  Another thing is that you can keep the tension pretty tight on the braid if you want to.  I use film canisters to hold the yarn as I braid.  The little black ones with the grey lids.  I made the card out of foamboard and it works great.  I hold the work in my hand and it grows out the bottom of my hand as I braid on the top.  It's easy to stop in process and find out where you are later too.

I'm interested in trying a Maru Dai, but this is comfortable, so I might not ever get around to building one. 

As for whipmaking.  I've heard of Matt's classes, but not directly.  I'm a member of the Australian Plaiters and Whipmakers Association.  They're a good source.  I think I have them linked from my webpage.  Ron Edward's book, "How to Make Whips" is the best source I know.  David Morgan's books are good too, but Ron really lays it out.  I don't think Matt's class would be worth your while, but the books would be.  Get some good hides and give it a go after you study up. 

I make mostly bullwhips.  I leave the stockwhips to the Aussie's because they have perfected them down to a science.  If you got a good stockwhip, then you can copy it's taper and weight.  I don't recommend lead loading unless you prefer it.  A well made whip will handle best without it.  And it all depends on what you're going for too.  High level point to point whipcracking or just plain swing and cut.  Most poorly made whips handle swing and cut really well, but the point to point style of cracking requires a really well balanced whip.  It took a long time before I could figure that stuff out.  The physics and all.  Nobody hands it to you on a silver platter, and how could they anyway.  I can make a great whip, but I don't know if I can explain what I do.  It's easiest to just copy greatness than to try to reinvent the wheel. 

Ron's book lays it all out, so if you're already a whip user, you know what you're after in the way of balance.  Just do each part of the process right, and the end product will be better than you think.  That's the way it is for me down to this day.  I never could understand how I could make such nice whips.  I do each part perfectly and it comes out right.

The plaiting is easy to learn.  But be sure to pull each stitch just about as hard as you can.  You can't overtighten a plait in my experience.  Another tip is to soak your strands in water after you cut them, then stretch the heck out of them till they won't stretch anymore, then pair them down to an even width.  You'll have to cut wide, otherwise the end result will be messy.  Try to drop your strands as neetly as possible.  Rolling will make things turn out nicer later, but back up and do it again if you have to.  Don't cut off the dropped strand until you're sure that's where you want it to lay.

There's a lot to it, I'm just trying to remember things that helped me, since you'll pick the rest up from books.  I guess just go slow and do each part as perfectly as you can.  And buy two hides so you won't panic if you do something wrong and run out.  And if you want, a strandcutter may help you to cut the strands.  Though they don't skive the bevel in.  If you don't skive the bevel in your strands, they probably won't fit in quite right. 

I hope that helps

Bladsmithing huh?  Me too.  I don't have a wife to tell me that I have too many hobbies.  I have too many hobbies, that's why I don't have a wife 
                                            
Ben
 

Woah I'm in sling braiding heaven!!!  Barak, glad to have you on the site!  I'm an early sling braider.  I've successfully (or semi-so) completed two, braided slings and am stuck in the middle of my third.  I've been using the card method (because it was easier to build) and Ben, I use film canisters too!  Odd how that goes.

I'm really glad the topic started.  I've gotten down to the pocket on this third sling and am thouroughly frustrated!  To this point, I've been able to pull off pouches reasonably well, but for some reason, this third one has me stumped.  I spend more time untangling string than I do braiding.  So I gave up, threw it in a box and said that I'd get back to it some day.  However, both of your split pocket designs sound so much easier.

Now the two I've done were knotted in the lovelock cave pattern, making one solid pouch.  Barak, I've been following your description well except for one thing.  What exactly do you mean by wrapping it?  You start off with two strands, wrap it, then four, etc.  does that simply mean winding the string around once?  Anyway, with that one definition, I can start, and maybe finish the third sling.

Ben, your design looks fantastic, but it would require me to learn how to make the freindship bracelets.  Would you mind sending me the sections from the book you mentioned (rob@fullmers.org).  I'd love to see them...well, and I'll start bugging my wife...I know she knew how to braid them at one point.

Ah, whips and blades.  Does life get any better?  I hadn't even considered plating whips until Ben got on the forum.  Unfortunately, my wife thinks I have too many hobbies too, so whips are taking their place in a very long line.  Sigh.   I see myself getting started on them in about five years...beware Ben, I'll be looking to you for some explanations!

Thanks guys!

Rob

Barak,

I know what you mean about Adele's method.  She's brilliant apparently, because I gave up on trying by her method when I first got her book years ago.  When I got the 250 patterns book, it really helped. 

As for whipmaking.  Bullwhips are a lot heavier, and take a lot more leather.  My bullwhips have 3 bellies!  They are 20 layers side to side.  A stockwhip is a lot faster and easier to manufacture.  But the American bullwhips aren't good for the fancy point to point cracking, so I just make their tapers work out so that the finished product is very powerful.  Depending on how you taper your whip, you'll get more or less power (volume) in the crack, and a greater or lesser speed of action. 

One of the harder things with bullwhips is making them sturdy at the transition between handle and thong.  I invented a spring transition for that area and it works great but isn't easy to manufacture.  I liked making high end whips, because like sling making, it's monotonous.  You want to make the best, and get paid for it, if you're going to do it as a job.  So I did. 

I use a steel pipe for the bullwhip handle. 

The important thing with a stockwhip is to not let your thong get too thick.  If you do, it will be too heavy for your handle.  Just copy the taper in your other whip and you'll have it.

As far as the whipkit goes, I don't know much about it.  Does he pre-cut your strands?  I'm supposing that's what it is. 

Cutting out is one of the tuffer parts because different parts of the hide are more or less stretchy than others and it's hard to get even strands.  It's not plastic!  Or yarn.  It's leather, and very inconsistent. 

Ron's book will lay you a plan out from beginning to end.  I don't know much about Matt's kit. 

Stockwhips are superior whips to bullwhips in general.  Just a better design.  Unless you're after power.  Bullwhips can put out the power!  And a well made Australian bullwhip, though more bulky, should handle about as well as an Australian stockwhip.  All in all, my favorite whip is a well made Australian bullwhip.

Oh yeah.  I don't think a core should be too hard to implement.  I never have, but I don't think it should be too hard.  It allows for color substitution too, when you get really advanced!  Just cross your stitches to the sides of it. 

Oh yes, and speaking of cores.  The weight and taper of your whip is determined by your core more than your plaiting.  Your plaiting, if it doesn't fit the core, will alter the taper of your whip and be messy.  But if you fit your plaiting to your core, then it's the core that is the determining factor.  And even with a whip-kit, you'll have to make judgements with weight and so on to a degree.  Your belly goes down as far as you plait it, and your strands past the belly are as thick as you make them.  And your belly is as thick as you make it.  If you want to use math, like I do.  a plait is a 5/32" layer of leather on top of whatever it goes over.  So your overlay will add 5/32" to your core, and so on. 

Rob,

Hey I had no clue you were braiding slings!  Awesome.  When you get something nice, send us pictures.  I will be sure to send you out those illustrations of how to do the friendship bracelet knotting today.  The knotting is easy, it's getting it into a sling cradle shape that's tuff.  Look at my instructions and I think you'll be able to get it there.

Look me up when you get to whipmaking

                                       Ben