Welcome, Guest. Please Login
SLINGING.ORG
 
Home Help Search Login


Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print
Reply To David (Sling Theory) (Read 20701 times)
David_T
Funditor
Past Moderator
****
Offline


Hooked on Sling'n

Posts: 760
Greenville,SC
Gender: male
Re: Reply To David (Sling Theory)
Reply #15 - Oct 13th, 2003 at 12:15am
 
    od,      center
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
David_T
Funditor
Past Moderator
****
Offline


Hooked on Sling'n

Posts: 760
Greenville,SC
Gender: male
Re: Reply To David (Sling Theory)
Reply #16 - Oct 13th, 2003 at 12:17am
 
Is it my computer-- m e t h o d come out     od and      does not come out at all. d e a d that is
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Whipartist
Senior Member
Past Moderator
****
Offline


Stone Slinger/Stick Thrower

Posts: 377
Sand Creek, CA
Gender: male
Re: Reply To David (Sling Theory)
Reply #17 - Oct 13th, 2003 at 12:45am
 
David,

Quote:
Yes, I am have many questions   
In the competition style, is the vertical spin overhand or underhand? When they change from the vetical to the horizontal, I assume the hand swings  above the head?

Thank you for replying to my questions!!


From what I know, the Balearic's typically use an underhand vertical spin.  So your swinging vertical in a clockwise direction from where you stand, and when you release, the release is a sort of straight punch toward the target.  It could be vertical but it feels rather horizontal to me.  Perhaps it is lateral down toward 4 oclock.  I'm not quite sure but it will feel right.  The hand doesn't swing over head.  It punches straight out at chest height, toward the target.  I hope that helps.  I'm no expert, more of a dude having fun. 

                                    Ben
Back to top
 
WWW  
IP Logged
 
David_T
Funditor
Past Moderator
****
Offline


Hooked on Sling'n

Posts: 760
Greenville,SC
Gender: male
Re: Reply To David (Sling Theory)
Reply #18 - Oct 13th, 2003 at 10:01am
 
We need to have an international slingers convention!!
Thanks for your reply Ben. To me it sounded as though Jesus was saying they make a few rotations vertically but then change to hoizontal in order to throw overhand as in a baseball pitch? I need to find a video or someone needs to make one.  Undecided

My son's digital camera can also do short vedio runs so I may try to make one of me trying different things and then you guys who know more could tell me what to change or do differently?? I've viewed a few short videos on this site. How would I Do that Chris?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
JeffH
Senior Member
Past Moderator
****
Offline


Don't stand behind me,
I'm about to sling!

Posts: 354
Memphis, TN
Gender: male
Re: Reply To David (Sling Theory)
Reply #19 - Oct 13th, 2003 at 10:20am
 
I love it, Ben!  We are all slinging dudes.  Maybe that should be on the t-shirt somewhere.  Dudes Slinging For Fun, or something like that.

I am a bit confused on the release you described, sounds horizontal, not vertical with the punching action.

jeff <><
Back to top
 

So David triumphed over the Philistine with a sling and a stone. (1 Samuel 17:50)
 
IP Logged
 
Chris
Slinging.org Administrator
*****
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 1284
USA
Gender: male
Re: Reply To David (Sling Theory)
Reply #20 - Oct 13th, 2003 at 6:11pm
 
I don't know what's up with your computer censoring stuff, but it's not the forum software. 

If you can figure out how to shoot the digital video and email it to me, I can convert it (scale, reduce, compress, etc) and put it on the site.

Chris
Back to top
 
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Whipartist
Senior Member
Past Moderator
****
Offline


Stone Slinger/Stick Thrower

Posts: 377
Sand Creek, CA
Gender: male
Re: Reply To David (Sling Theory)
Reply #21 - Oct 13th, 2003 at 7:26pm
 
Grin  Yeah we could put big quote on the back 

Sling Dude!   

Quote:
I am a bit confused on the release you described, sounds horizontal, not vertical with the punching action.


I think it's sort of like a hook punch aimed for the underside of the chin.  Except ofcourse the fist isn't aligned for striking.  It feels horizontal because it travels across the body, but I think it's more lateral or vertical. 

                              Ben

Back to top
 
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Whipartist
Senior Member
Past Moderator
****
Offline


Stone Slinger/Stick Thrower

Posts: 377
Sand Creek, CA
Gender: male
Re: Reply To David (Sling Theory)
Reply #22 - Oct 17th, 2003 at 2:52pm
 
Well I took the 2 tarps I had and put them up together.  Good enough for the moment.  I got someone to take some video of me slinging from different angles.  Interesting stuff.  One of the only times I've ever seen a good slinger on tape.  Just so happens to be myself. 

I found with multiple cracking with bullwhips- when I got into the more advanced stuff, taping myself helped to understand and perfect what I was doing.  The same thing goes with slings.  My white sling showed up great on tape and my red baseball sling didn't show up really well but the ball did! 

So I just did my slow motion frame by frame study of what's going on with the different types of slinging and so on.  I was wondering...

If when you throw at a different angle from your swing, what that means and if it alters the sling's angle of release?  And

What are the release points for the different styles?

And other assorted questions. 

This stuff only applies to slings around 32" long.  Longer or shorter slings would be a little different.  Especially longer ones. 

I found I always lunge at the start of the swing prior to my throw. Nomatter what technique I'm using, the lunge comes first and my body lowers.  I had no clue of this!! 

I also found that the sling's angle of rotation is hardly altered at all by a change in throwing angle, from the windup (rotating angle).  Say I rotate between 0 and 180.  But I throw at 45 degrees.  It won't change the sling's rotation more than a degree or two above the pure horizontal.  But rather, the sling is held to a closer orbit via this method.  It's pulled in somewhat and hence it accelerates like the spin of an ice skater pulling her arms in during a spin.  I didn't know this was a factor in slinging but I think it is.  Shorter slings may change angles more? 

In both the vertical and the horizontal throw, there is a point at which my arm is cocked back like a baseball pitcher.  At some absurd angle just over my shoulder.  That is true with both styles, but the path of the arm afterwards, and the windup angle are different between the styles.  I also found that even in the vertical, there is quite a bit of horizontal action going on.  It is really almost a mirror of the horizontal swing, but at a 70 degrees different angle.  The vertical isn't true vertical, it only feels like it! For me it is between 11-5 oclock even when I think it's between 12 and 6.

Interestingly though, the real lateral tends to be different!  I mean the 45 degree windup.  I think that the human head is the problem here.  Or something like this.  Both the vertical and the horizontal throw try to keep the release as close to the body as possible.  Or else they could be said to either lock in the vertical or horizontal plane prior to the final throw.  but the lateral doesn't lock anything in, it just throws out from the corner.  The tendency with it is to use more arm power and less of the acceleration of angular momentum principle inherent in the releases at different angles from the windup- found in the vertical and horizontal styles. 

Now that was a mouthful, but I'm not quite sure what practical use it has for me?

I have several things I want to experiment with.  I want to first, get some more standardized ammunition.  I am finding a great accuracy improvment if I go heavy.  I'm not sure on the weight but I'm thinking about 3 to 4 oz.  This isn't a new revelation to any of us but I am emphasizing it again in my own mind.  I think I'll go get some good clay and make a couple dozen standard size projectiles in basic football or watermelon shape.  Maybe I'll even enhance them with lead weights in the center.  It depends, I want to find the exact weight that I prefer and not go too small on size.  I want them to work with the net I have coming!

I believe J. Vega's idea of using very heavy ammunition for practice is a very good one.  I want to experiment more with this too. 

I'm also finding that the instinctual throw toward the target is hard to perfect in itself, but..., there is more too it, as I first thought.  That I need to keep an eye out for how far back I'm holding my arm cocked back during the wind up.  And what angle my sling is orbiting at in relation to my target.  My eyes are on a different plane than the orbits so I want to account for that as well. 

I found that on the vertical throw, some shots were bad and some good.  I'm grouping in 3 different but definite places on the targetl.  I hit a lot of shots dead center  Wink  I hit a lot about 2 foot to the left of dead center.  Angry  And I hit a lot way low and to the right.  Cry

On the horizontal throw I have two groupings.

Dead center  Grin

Off slightly to the left a few feet of dead center.   Undecided

I really like both styles and I'm practicing both extensively now. 


Another point I think may be true....  I think if you sling too much in a day you can wear yourself out and loose refinement, not gain it.  Bruce Lee, and other martial artists since- taught practicing fine techniques only while having energy enough to do them with full finesse.  The gross motor skills can be learned when you're tired.  But if you practice fine motor skills till exhaustion they become less precise, not more.  What you practice is what you get good at.  If you go for endurance you'll get it, but if you go for endurance and expect accuracy, I think you'll be disappointed.  I think 5 minutes a day for a couple months will be better for skill improvement than an hour a day less often.  Keep in mind that shepard boys wander through the country, and only sling rocks when they pick them up or occasionally on the job.  In the beginning I think long practice is good- but refinement takes some thought.  And a few shots a day for a long period of time may be better than driving yourself till exhaustion.  I'm not against long hours of slinging however.  I just want to spend them with more free techniques and less concentration.  More power and distance shots and less zeroing in and strain. 

My last observation is that horizontal slinging is much more dynamic than vertical.  In horizontal slinging I end up contorting my body to get my shot in.  The effect is great for power but since the technique is more dynamic, it may require more athleticism to pull off accuratly in comparision with the vertical.  But sometimes dynamic movement is the whole key to the accuracy of a technique.  In basketball I usually have less trouble with jumpshots than set shots.  Well anyway, there's some stuff to think on.         

                                         Ben
Back to top
 
WWW  
IP Logged
 
David_T
Funditor
Past Moderator
****
Offline


Hooked on Sling'n

Posts: 760
Greenville,SC
Gender: male
Re: Reply To David (Sling Theory)
Reply #23 - Oct 17th, 2003 at 10:58pm
 
This must be the day for deep thoughts and observations.

I, as a newbie, have made some personal observations on my slinging.
#1. MY problem with accuracy in the vertical release is the natural follow thru of the arm to the left as opposed to the "straight in line with the target" follow thru--unnatural.
I would always focus on the "release" If it was to late it would go left of center. Too early --right of center. I would try to correct by coming more over the top and straight down but I could never get a smooth flow of the rotation coming straight over the top.
Then I had the thought --the real power comes with the "popping of the whip motion and the release at the same time??? That is probably a no brainer to you experienced ones. I then focused on feeling the moment of the pop and the release being at the same time and at an point earlier than I had been doing when my throws were going left.

I found that doing that, I could forget about the follow thru naturally going to the left.  In other words, I was making the snap or pop of the sling more to the end of the swing and not at the same time as the release and pop -- the point at which there is the most force on the stone to fly out????

I don't know if that makes sense to anyone but it has really improved the accuracy and straightness of my shoots.

Any critiques of this babble?  Grin


Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Whipartist
Senior Member
Past Moderator
****
Offline


Stone Slinger/Stick Thrower

Posts: 377
Sand Creek, CA
Gender: male
Re: Reply To David (Sling Theory)
Reply #24 - Oct 18th, 2003 at 7:36pm
 
David,

Well it seems there are different factors that individual slingers are conscious of.  If it works for you, then go with it!  Keep experimenting and being technique conscious till you get the point where you want to be.  Leon's video's show a really good horizontal technique and he jumps in his release!  Talk about dynamic!  But he can hit a tin can from 10 yards.  And I think this also illustrates the individual technique differences between slingers.  I see that he does his last rotation fast and doesn't seem to rely as much on the pull from the back as others, including myself do.  He starts in a left foot in front stance and at his throw he steps forward with his right foot.  Watch his video in the articles section.

I am using mostly a horizontal technique right now, but I lunge forward with my left (lead) foot.  And then I throw.  Quite different but still a horizontal throw!  I'm still experimenting but yesterday I discovered something after writing my earlier post.  I did some thinking and some stuff popped into my head.  Later when I get a chance to write it out, I will.  It really improved my accuracy!  I can pretty consistently hit a plate size target from 15 yards.  Well that's what I was doing yesterday.  I could feel a bad throw from a good one.  And then I just tried pitching some baseballs in without a sling.  My accuracy was a lot worse than with the sling!  I couldn't believe it.  I have a lot more experimentation to do but I think I may have found my technique!  Having the tarps has really helped.  I used to practice with tennis balls years ago, and I couldn't get anywhere with them because they are way too light. 

Hopefully in a few minutues here.  Infact probably nobody will read this post before I write the next Smiley

                                                      Ben
Back to top
 
WWW  
IP Logged
 
JeffH
Senior Member
Past Moderator
****
Offline


Don't stand behind me,
I'm about to sling!

Posts: 354
Memphis, TN
Gender: male
Re: Reply To David (Sling Theory)
Reply #25 - Oct 18th, 2003 at 8:12pm
 
Wrong, Ben.

I have not written much in the past few days, but have been watching the action pretty closely.

I have shot my bows all day today.  Also just finished my daughters longbow and she shot a lot with me.  What great fun!

I did some tennis ball slinging with my 25" sling from my article.  The light weight is easier to feel with the shorter sling and while I was slinging fairly wild, I did get close to my target a few times.  Only went over the back fence once, and did not hit the kids or dog at all.  I considered it a successful day!

I still find the single wind up most appealing.  I start with my left foot forward and when I release I tend to lift my back leg like a baseball pitcher, lurching forward a bit.  This is not nec. with stones which are light for the length of sling, but feels right when the stone gives the right "pull", which comes with the balanced length/weight.

I will keep practicing and see where it goes.

jeff <><
Back to top
 

So David triumphed over the Philistine with a sling and a stone. (1 Samuel 17:50)
 
IP Logged
 
Whipartist
Senior Member
Past Moderator
****
Offline


Stone Slinger/Stick Thrower

Posts: 377
Sand Creek, CA
Gender: male
Re: Reply To David (Sling Theory)
Reply #26 - Oct 18th, 2003 at 10:44pm
 
Quote:
I start with my left foot forward and when I release I tend to lift my back leg like a baseball pitcher, lurching forward a bit.  This is not nec. with stones which are light for the length of sling, but feels right when the stone gives the right "pull", which comes with the balanced length/weight.

I will keep practicing and see where it goes.

jeff <><


Yeah that's what I'm doing Jeff.   

Ok, I've discovered something.  Maybe only for myself- but something is working right for me!  I'm getting consistent accuracy.  I can hit a standard plate from 15 yards pretty consistently, and I'm hardly practiced right now! 

I also made 25 glands.  Beautiful!  Out of clay.  Cost me $10.  I'm going to make a shepard's bag to keep them in, as soon as I can!  I established my standard weight to be 4 to 4.5 oz/120-140grams for the glands.  With this weight I have a good accurate shot.  I've only practiced with tennis balls for accuracy up till recently when I transitioned to the t-balls.  So with the more consistent practice recently, and then getting the tarps and rocks..., I'm rolling!  I discovered a lot of stuff just recently.  I double checked it today and I'm still throwing as accurate as yesterday.  I put my technique out in this paper I wrote for myself yesterday.  I updated it to make it more understandable just now.  Here it is below.  It wasn't written for this format.  Remember it is composed of headings followed by a colon- and then explanations under each heading.  Originally they were indented but I can't get it to work for me here with the cut and paste.

The key to this paper is these few horizontal slinging principals I have found for myself recently. 

Bisecting your windup rotations at a right angle by your final throw- makes your shots very accurate.

Ergonomics and biomechanics make tilted horizontal slinging more powerful and natural, while still allowing for the right angle bisection of the windup rotations by the path of the final throw. 

Retention hand placement has an effect on the right/left travel of your shots.

Ammunition weight has an effect on the right/left travel of your shots.  Each slinger must find his preference. 


Ben Scott- Sling Technique:  October 18, 2003

     Tilted Horizontal Technique- with a 32" sling.

Lead and lunge style:

     Left lead. 
     
     Lunge on final rotation like with a baseball pitch, but I start in left lead.  It's a lunge to the left and forward at final pitch.

     After lunge, right foot comes off the ground and swings up like in baseball pitch.   

Rock/Gland weight: 

     Light rocks release too late (fly left)

     Heavy rocks release too early (fly right)

     4oz to 4.5oz/120grams to 140grams is my standard gland weight.

Retention arm/hand position: 

     Straight up a few inches from ear. 

     In a vertical feeling position. 

     Hand held too far to the left makes the rocks fly to the left. 

     Hand held too far to right makes rocks fly to the right

     This principal can be utilized to compensate in windage adjustment for differing rock weights.

Orbital mass relationship with target:  Where do I place my windup spins in relation to my bullseye? 

     Just over target for close range.

     Range variations will be figured out at a later date. 

Windup rotation angle:  Ergonomics, biomechanics and physics considerations. 

     Some strange but significant accuracy improvement occurs when you bisect your windup rotations at a right angle by your final throw.  I can't explain it. 

     So bisect your windup rotations- at a right angle by your final throw.  Throw your hand right through the middle of the plane you create with your      windup rotations.      

     Absolute horizontal rotations are not possible to bisect at a true right angle since I can't thow at absolute vertical.  Vertical is possible to bisect,      but the ergonomics are not good and the biomechanics are inefficient. 

     However with a slightly lateral windup rotation, your bisection angle would be a throw with perfect ergonomics (natural pitching position).  This      combines the natural baseball pitch with a convenient swinging angle that is almost horizontal.  So if we imagine a perfectly horizontal plane      from left to right being just over my head-  My windup rotations are counterclockwise, over my      head.  The plane they lie on is just about between      20 degrees and 200 degrees (slight tilt to the right).  And I am throwing at about 110 degrees (natural human throwing angle). 110 degrees is the      bisection of 20 and 200.

Aiming: 

     Instinct

     Burn a hole through the target with your eyes.

     Looseness and lack of tension.
     
     Whip hand out towards the target.

Slinging consciousness checklist- In this order.

     Ammunition weight (for hand position compensation),  retention hand placement, rotation angle, orbital mass relationship with target, lung      forward and left, pull from the back (power stroke), aim at target with your throw- slide hand through the perfect right angle of your windup      rotations, whip hand toward target, release, bullseye!   

Practice ideas.

     From here I will practice different sling lengths to find out their properties. 

     Also left handed practice may be helpful for a greater proprioceptive and mental consciousness of technique characteristics.

     Daily short duration practice.

     Establish the ability to throw from a 2 or 3 swing windup, a 1 swing windup?, Maintaining the ability to throw from a windup of any      duration.

     Make a shepard's bag for ammunition storage and less time lapse between shots. 

     Make standard weight gland ammunition out of clay. 

     Concentration drills?

     Speed drills?

     Experiment with different ranges. 

     Experiment with different sling starting positions for various windups.


It's working very well.  I've never had accuracy--with power--like this before in my life.  I can't wait till I get some good practice; I want to see how precise I can get.  I don't know if this technique will work for others but it does for me.  Keep in mind that sling length, and individual differences in biomechanics may alter things a bit. 

I often do multiple rotations before I throw but I can keep it down to 3 or 4 at this point and still keep my accuracy.  I want to keep lowering that #.  Because windup, while being a potential starting rest position in some contexts, is also a waste of time in others.   


                                    Ben 
Back to top
 
WWW  
IP Logged
 
rudeboy
Novicius
*
Offline


F=mv^2/r

Posts: 6
Re: Reply To David (Sling Theory)
Reply #27 - Jun 14th, 2009 at 12:00pm
 
Everyone pretty much knows the science behind the sling, but the question is "why are longer slings less accurate?"

the tangent line is futher from your eye.  That's it.  Imagine the point of release, your eye, and your target are points on a triangle.  The further the release point is from your eye, the greater the adjustment you have to make.  the key to long sling accuracy is to RELEASE LATER... but just slightly.  that puts the tangent line. aiming more towards your target.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print
(Moderators: vetryan15, Kick, Curious Aardvark, Morphy, Chris, joe_meadmaker, Rat Man)