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Message started by Morphy on Jan 16th, 2025 at 9:07am

Title: Convergent Evolution
Post by Morphy on Jan 16th, 2025 at 9:07am
https://youtube.com/shorts/tdw2-quPiTk?si=k5dnhhykC9b9o_vf

https://youtube.com/shorts/Dk93JDS4gKA?si=Vg-BkjE7QKV2PfaY

I love seeing how such different cultures came up with such similar designs.

Even the cross section is the same. Do you have any examples of convergent evolution in primitive weapons?

Title: Re: Convergent Evolution
Post by xud9a - call me zud 👍 on Jan 16th, 2025 at 11:32am
The sling ?

😁😆😅😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
👍

Title: Re: Convergent Evolution
Post by TOMBELAINE on Jan 17th, 2025 at 8:28am
The throwing stick.

Title: Re: Convergent Evolution
Post by xud9a - call me zud 👍 on Jan 17th, 2025 at 9:11am
And though its not really my area,
Atlatl ?
😁👍👍

Title: Re: Convergent Evolution
Post by Morphy on Jan 19th, 2025 at 10:34am

TOMBELAINE wrote on Jan 17th, 2025 at 8:28am:
The throwing stick.


The throwing stick is an interesting one because there is such variety in both design and function. Some are airfoils and others just heavy clubs. I made Kick an African "rungu" awhile back from local live oak but I think my time studying Native American war clubs seeped into my design too much making it a very heavy club for throwing.

I've been wanting to make an airfoil type for ages but just never have. The airfoil throwing sticks are astonishingly good for small game hunting. Possibly the best or equal with the bow. The only drawback is if you break it on a rock it takes a good amount of time with basic tools to make another and have it perfectly aerodynamic.

I'm pretty sure the NA had airfoil types but not sure what other cultures produced them outside of contact with NA. Indigeinous Australians perhaps? I'll have to look into it.

Title: Re: Convergent Evolution
Post by Morphy on Jan 19th, 2025 at 10:37am

xud9a - call me zud 👍 wrote on Jan 17th, 2025 at 9:11am:
And though its not really my area,
Atlatl ?
😁👍👍


So..the Aztecs had atlatls. And the Indigineous Australians as well. I'm sure somewhere back in prehistory this tech was known by an original group that migrated to different areas (maybe)? If not that would be fascinating if it was made independently between the two groups.

In terms of functionality I'm not famaliar enough with the weapon design to know if the different styles produce specialized pros and cons.

Title: Re: Convergent Evolution
Post by RhonanTennenbrook on Jan 19th, 2025 at 12:51pm
Atlatls are well documented in the upper paleolithic of Europe (starting at around 40-ish k years ago).
They used antler and bone for the receptacle on the throwing stick and these parts are regularly the only things preserved after the rest of the weapon has rotted away.
These parts were very often carved into intricate stylized animal shapes.

I would argue strongly against there being a single group inventing the implement. Atlatls were almost certainly independently invented in their respective cultures around the world.

Title: Re: Convergent Evolution
Post by RhonanTennenbrook on Jan 19th, 2025 at 1:01pm
I'm not really that astonished at these convergent designs of tools and weapons.

Physics works the exact same anywhere around the world. The physics of these designs just WORKS, regardless of who invented them or how. The specifics might be different, owing to differences in raw materials or climate, but if a design provides a definite improvement, and the prerequisites are met in a certain part of the world, it seems inevitable to me that a culture would stumble upon the design.

I'm sure we could find hundreds of examples of technological advancements which formed independently around the world, with differences tied to the specifics of the context of their invention.

Title: Re: Convergent Evolution
Post by Morphy on Jan 19th, 2025 at 1:20pm
While I dont know the specfic archeological evidence behind it I would agree with the logic behind your points Rhonan.

As you said the physics are the same and all the designs of primitive weapons are...well, fairly primitive.

Its always been a goal of mine to try and create a primitive weapon design that is 1) effective 2) totally new 3) possible to be made under a primitive scenario. I imagine there must be some type of weapon that hasnt been thought of yet. But that may just be my own bias.

Title: Re: Convergent Evolution
Post by RhonanTennenbrook on Jan 19th, 2025 at 1:47pm
A water fowl hunting carved skipping stone.
You take a bit of flint and carve it such that it's perfect for skipping across the surface of a lake. You make it have a sharp and deadly edge which might be able to kill a bird or seriously injure it in one hit. You throw it such that it skips across the surface of a body of water straight into a flock of water fowl.

By skipping the stone across the surface you completely get rid of the issue of elevation or range when aiming. Some birds take flight from the water by having to gain speed before gaining altitude. Even if they take flight very quickly after the stone makes its first skip, they will still be gaining speed close to the surface when the stone reaches them.

Then you just pick up the dead or injured bird.

Title: Re: Convergent Evolution
Post by RhonanTennenbrook on Jan 19th, 2025 at 2:01pm

Morphy wrote on Jan 19th, 2025 at 1:20pm:
As you said the physics are the same and all the designs of primitive weapons are...well, fairly primitive.


I personally try to be cautious calling anything primitive. It carries with it an atmosphere of modern "arrogance" and vanity in terms of technological superiority I find distasteful when thinking about history.

My understanding of the past is that at absolutely any point in history, the humans at the time were at the very leading edge in terms of technological advancements. I bet the carved antler atlatls used in the upper paleolithic were never before seen in terms of range and precision and were at the time equivalent to the very best modern gear the best athletes use today.



Title: Re: Convergent Evolution
Post by joe_meadmaker on Jan 19th, 2025 at 3:42pm

RhonanTennenbrook wrote on Jan 19th, 2025 at 2:01pm:
I personally try to be cautious calling anything primitive. It carries with it an atmosphere of modern "arrogance" and vanity in terms of technological superiority I find distasteful when thinking about history.

I think that very much comes down to the person who's speaking and is not the fault of the word.  I do agree that in modern times we tend to get a little full of ourselves when thinking about our intelligence as compared to people of the past.

I'm curious though.  What do you feel is a fitting substitute for the word primitive that covers the concepts that it does?  It's a bit difficult to find another word because primitive can be a reference to a weapon from long ago, or just something that's simple in concept, design, or the needs of manufacturing.  The latter being what Morphy was referencing.  Most synonyms for the word primitive will hit one or the other of these meanings, but usually not both.

Title: Re: Convergent Evolution
Post by Morphy on Jan 19th, 2025 at 6:29pm
When I say primitive I am referring to the level of technology used. If you wish to substitute something like Stone Age when you speak of it that is fine.

I dont typically use the term Stone Age since it refers to both a scientifically well defined prehistorical time period and a technology level. And it gets confusing when you talk about a modern stone age culture in our day and age. You start having to add on more descriptors to get your point across.

"Modern day stone age culture or Stone age technology"


Title: Re: Convergent Evolution
Post by RhonanTennenbrook on Jan 20th, 2025 at 3:58am

joe_meadmaker wrote on Jan 19th, 2025 at 3:42pm:
primitive can be a reference to a weapon from long ago, or just something that's simple in concept, design, or the needs of manufacturing.  The latter being what Morphy was referencing.  Most synonyms for the word primitive will hit one or the other of these meanings, but usually not both.


Oh I'm fully ok with the word. No substitute needed.

I'm just trying not to approach the past from a viewpoint of superiority.

I guess the way Morphy used the word is completely ok.

Title: Re: Convergent Evolution
Post by TOMBELAINE on Jan 20th, 2025 at 6:22am
Here a gaulish throwing stick found in France and designed for bird hunting other the coastal marshes.
The link is in French but the photo is good.
https://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://nicolas-constans.net/2014-09-17-les-gaulois-amateurs-de-boomerang/&ved=2ahUKEwjRodG1l4SLAxVHRaQEHY56LcQQFnoECBIQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1GaRloN9LHFMeHFxlGtSCo
If the Gauls used this stick (like others peoples), it is because the technology is sufficient to do a good hunting. Today we would add a GPS because we are addicted to technology but actually why do since it works.

Title: Re: Convergent Evolution
Post by xud9a - call me zud 👍 on Jan 20th, 2025 at 7:47am
Lovely article Tombelaine, thanks.
Now all I can think of is "Asterix trouve un boomerang"
😁👍

Title: Re: Convergent Evolution
Post by Morphy on Jan 20th, 2025 at 9:25am
Great find Tombe.

You know as I was reading that it made me think perhaps it would be better to have a returning boomerang to hunt birds. Not just because you are throwing high and every miss means a long walk to get your weapon, although that is part of it.

The other possible advantage might be if you are throwing into a large flock and you get the distance right it would be swooping around in a circle "through" the flock as the flock flies up and away from you potentially greatly increasing the chances of hitting one of the birds!

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