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Message started by thabaill on Mar 27th, 2024 at 1:55pm

Title: Leaping sling pouch
Post by thabaill on Mar 27th, 2024 at 1:55pm
Hi. I remember I have seen a video on Youtube several years ago where two teenagers were casting stones to a cliff wall.

The interesting subject is they had slings made in a way the pouch or stone cradle was concave when they have the stone there, but when they released the cord and the sling opened the pouch became a little convex, so the stone leaped a bit.

Someone else remember to have seen that video or such type of sling?

Greetings and thanks in advance!

Title: Re: Leaping sling pouch
Post by joe_meadmaker on Mar 27th, 2024 at 9:02pm
I don't remember seeing that.  But now I want to!  :)

Title: Re: Leaping sling pouch
Post by thabaill on Mar 28th, 2024 at 3:28pm
I have been looking for the video again many times but I cannot find it  :-[ :'(

I remember the sling was somewhat like an ancient Egyptian one. The pouch for the stone was made in a way it flipped from concave to convex when the release string became loose at the moment when the user fired the stone.

I am sorry I neither can find the video nor have a better description or more detail.

Title: Re: Leaping sling pouch
Post by Wide Right on Mar 29th, 2024 at 4:22am
I came across some pictures on here not too long ago of someone who achieved an effect like that by looping a rubber band around the retention and release cords and behind the pouch, so that when let free the band compressed and the pouch rapidly flipped open. In their case I believe it was an experiment in giving the release cord some extra opening speed, basically an "assisted opening sling" if you will. Not quite the same thing as what you're talking about, but pretty similar.

Whether or not it had any tangible effect on their throw I can't recall. Just spitballing here, but my thoughts are that any pouch that was made in such a way as to push itself open through forces beyond just the normal centrifugal action, would likely not spiral the projectile as well or potentially even impact the projectile as it exited the pouch, doing strange things to its flight characteristics.

But who knows! Maybe it would do something cool. I hope you're able to figure out the kind of sling it was and replicate it, if so please let us know how it works!

Title: Re: Leaping sling pouch
Post by IronGoober on Mar 29th, 2024 at 10:04am
https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1613167640/11

Title: Re: Leaping sling pouch
Post by kairo on Mar 29th, 2024 at 1:07pm
That might really have potential! Like, if you make the cords themselves out of rubber,  and maybe use a sort of handle and attach them to that, this could even boost power. Practically a rubber-assisted Hoopak staff sling hybrid. I actually think that's the future of precision slinging XD
hoopak.jpg (295 KB | 2 )

Title: Re: Leaping sling pouch
Post by TOMBELAINE on Mar 29th, 2024 at 2:03pm
It's not like I saw it but the idea is interesting and innovative.   ;D

Title: Re: Leaping sling pouch
Post by IronGoober on Mar 29th, 2024 at 8:38pm

kairo wrote on Mar 29th, 2024 at 1:07pm:
That might really have potential! Like, if you make the cords themselves out of rubber,  and maybe use a sort of handle and attach them to that, this could even boost power. Practically a rubber-assisted Hoopak staff sling hybrid. I actually think that's the future of precision slinging XD

You better watch yourself around here... you're playing with fire  ;D ;D

Title: Re: Leaping sling pouch
Post by joe_meadmaker on Mar 29th, 2024 at 11:25pm

IronGoober wrote on Mar 29th, 2024 at 8:38pm:
You better watch yourself around here... you're playing with fire  

This!  ;D

Title: Re: Leaping sling pouch
Post by Jaegoor on Mar 30th, 2024 at 4:37am
I'm just wondering whether traditional braided rubber bands made of natural rubber comply with Balearic regulations. 😜🤭😂🤓

Title: Re: Leaping sling pouch
Post by thabaill on Mar 30th, 2024 at 9:44am
Hi everybody.

Two weeks ago I made a slingshot for little child. He is only 3 and already he is starting to get immersed in Matrix/smartphones. The rubber bands aren't great. But the ones I got which are powerful tear just after a few shots. Anyway I am sure the little boy will never be allowed to use it. It will finish hung on a garage wall as a curious thing from a recent past or thrown to the trash in a rush cleaning.

I was not thinking exactly about a shepherd sling with rubber bands or a halfling hoopak ;D

The power added by a flipping, leaping or popping stone sling pouch would be negligible. But my interest is more aimed toward reducing the friction or avoiding completely the relese cord touch the stone once fired. Just as IronGoober says here https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1613167640/11

I saw Sarosh post https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1709755717 which is very interesting.

I use to see many times rifling spiraling wonderful shots but also Magnus effect menay times. So my interest is more aimed to achieving this:

"the missile may not fly out at random, from the pliancy of the strap at the moment of discharge, but, seated firmly while being whirled, may be shot out as if from a bow-string."

"the loose band does not roll about in the throwing of a bullet, but balanced when it sits, as if it were shaken by a mass of strings."

Greetings!

Title: Re: Leaping sling pouch
Post by kairo on Mar 30th, 2024 at 4:24pm
Hehe yeah I was just joking ^^
The construction of the sling has an influence on this. In general, you want cords that are stiff in one direction, and pliable in the other. That way the cords allow controlling the orientation of the pouch until the release, and they open up easily during the release. The rectangular cross-section of Balearic slings provides this kind of stiffness, as do flat woven cords or straps of leather. Also, imagine to pull the cords of a Balearic sling apart. How does the split pouch move? Exactly how you describe.
There are many ways to achive this desired behavior when constructing a sling, and many ways to fail ^^ Still, this won't do magic, and it takes much training to eventually be able to make use of this.

From where are the citations you quoted?

Title: Re: Leaping sling pouch
Post by thabaill on Mar 31st, 2024 at 4:26pm
Hi kairo. I know you were joking  ;) :P ;D

I got the quotes from Livy's description of the Achaean sling. The first one is the official translation. The second is the translation I get from Google. It is slightly different and it says nothing about a bow string.

In Southern Spain the type of sling used is the same as nowadays Balearics, so I have the trend to think in slings as braids. I my zone rocks are mainly sandstone which it very light. So I must use a bit large stones that roll on the sling and get a lot of Magnus effect. That is the reason I use to think, sometimes even obsessively in how was the actual Achaean sling.

My goal it to get a pre-opened sling or one made in such way that it has the tendency to open once released while it still holds the stone firmly when whirling it. But without the assistance of rubber bands or anything modern.

Greetings.

Title: Re: Leaping sling pouch
Post by kairo on Apr 1st, 2024 at 3:24pm
Thanks!
So, Balearic slings don't work well for you? I often sling tennisballs with a Balearic, and as they are quite low in density I think they might be comparable to your sandstones.
If the Magnus effect impairs your accuracy, I guess instead of trying to eliminate friction and spin, you should rather try to improve your control over pouch orientation. With a spin parallel to the axis of flight, there's no Magnus effect.

Title: Re: Leaping sling pouch
Post by Jaegoor on Apr 1st, 2024 at 8:48pm
What is a pre-opened sling? I do not understand the problem. There are perfect stones in Ibiza. But they break very quickly and are very light. There are no problems with it.

Title: Re: Leaping sling pouch
Post by thabaill on Apr 2nd, 2024 at 1:11pm
Hi. Perhaps the best term it is not "pre-opened" but a bit more of a tendency to open once the release cord is free.

A bit like this but not so extreme.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/QUsiyH9aurU

Just only to avoid the friction or the stone rolling on the release cord as much as possible.

About stones, I'm not in Ibiza. None is rounded here  ;D They have some tendency to travel following strange trajectories and noises.

Bis später!

Title: Re: Leaping sling pouch
Post by TOMBELAINE on Apr 2nd, 2024 at 1:57pm
Hi Thabaill,
The Magnus effect only applies to rounded projectiles. Your "bad" pebbles roll in the pouch (what is normal) and once released, fly straight swirling on themselves.
More than half of what I throw are bad pebbles.

Title: Re: Leaping sling pouch
Post by Jaegoor on Apr 2nd, 2024 at 4:11pm
I know a lot of slingers in Mallorca who shoot really bad stones. And meet them. Amazing right? It's not my thing. I've done it several times too. But I prefer shooting well-shaped projectiles. Whether stone, clay or lead. The principle you are looking for does not exist in this way Sling. The principle is based on a continuous wave movement. It has worked fine for thousands of years. And still works today.

Title: Re: Leaping sling pouch
Post by joe_meadmaker on Apr 2nd, 2024 at 7:22pm
I didn't remember that IG had played with that before (meaning the rubber band assisted pouch).


thabaill wrote on Apr 2nd, 2024 at 1:11pm:
Just only to avoid the friction or the stone rolling on the release cord as much as possible.

He mentioned there was a noticeable release to the right, which could be explained by a pouch opening faster.  That should help minimize projectile contact with the pouch and release cord.


You could also try a pouch made of a stiffer material.  Here's some pics of a sling that was part of some recent discussion.  This is the LD-1 from Sarosh.  The pouch is a pretty stiff leather.  The sides actually stick out if a tennis ball is just sitting in it.  But they will come together when the sling is rotated.

I wonder if NOOC has one of these slings.  He sometimes has access to a high speed camera (2000 fps).  I wonder what the release of this pouch would look like.  I'd love to see a high speed of that rubber band pouch release too.
Pouch-NoTension.jpg (46 KB | 5 )
Pouch-WithTension.jpg (35 KB | 4 )

Title: Re: Leaping sling pouch
Post by Sarosh on Apr 3rd, 2024 at 2:57am

joe_meadmaker wrote on Apr 2nd, 2024 at 7:22pm:
This is the LD-1 from Sarosh

*LD-2
although the pouch shape is the same, because of the leather lining(inside leather) the characteristics change a little(stiffer, lower friction with tennis ball nap). I have used it with tennis balls and it has a nice feel similar to an LD-1. I haven't used stones because I expect them to roughen the inside. both sides of the pouch are grain side.

Title: Re: Leaping sling pouch
Post by TOMBELAINE on Apr 3rd, 2024 at 6:21am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqLaLP19zZ0

A link with a sheperd who used probably "bad pebbles".

Title: Re: Leaping sling pouch
Post by TOMBELAINE on Apr 3rd, 2024 at 6:43am
I'm agree with Thabaill, the pouch is important with bad pebbles. Look for a solution that minimizes the contact between the stone and the pouch is an idea.
Just my idea but I use pouch made with leather because there are more or less sharp angles and I think that they can crash into a weaving or braiding.

Two difficulties with this ammunition :
1) It is not the fault of the stone if the shot is wrong.  :-[ :'(
2) The weights are different and the throw is more difficult.

Title: Re: Leaping sling pouch
Post by thabaill on Apr 3rd, 2024 at 7:20am
Hi, everybody. Thank you for you explanations. I have realized my problem aren't the stones. Now I think have been doing something wrong all the time  :-[

I use to fold my slings in the middle. So the stone seats much better.




Diego Camuñas does it too
https://youtu.be/-ouNR6djZy4?feature=shared&t=251
https://youtu.be/-ouNR6djZy4?feature=shared&t=426

And more people use to do it the same
https://youtu.be/jBcvO7B9pCY?feature=shared&t=51

In fact they seat so great they don't fly just after the shot. They roll on the sling pouch and on the first palm of the release cord just before they fly towards the target. So the stones rotate strongly like a trompo, but the rotation axis usually is perpendicular to the trajectory so rarely I get a rifle spinning. At not long distance I can hit a target easily, but shooting further I only hit a target randomly just after many many shots.

Lluis Pons' sling is not folded in the middle. Just like Sarosh's LD-2 sling pic joe_meadmaker posted.
https://youtu.be/EY7EOspW594?feature=shared&t=14

Greetings!

Title: Re: Leaping sling pouch
Post by thabaill on Apr 3rd, 2024 at 8:04am
I have realized about one detail.


joe_meadmaker wrote on Apr 2nd, 2024 at 7:22pm:
I didn't remember that IG had played with that before (meaning the rubber band assisted pouch).


thabaill wrote on Apr 2nd, 2024 at 1:11pm:
Just only to avoid the friction or the stone rolling on the release cord as much as possible.

He mentioned there was a noticeable release to the right, which could be explained by a pouch opening faster.  That should help minimize projectile contact with the pouch and release cord.


You could also try a pouch made of a stiffer material.  Here's some pics of a sling that was part of some recent discussion.  This is the LD-1 from Sarosh.  The pouch is a pretty stiff leather. The sides actually stick out if a tennis ball is just sitting in it. But they will come together when the sling is rotated.

I wonder if NOOC has one of these slings.  He sometimes has access to a high speed camera (2000 fps).  I wonder what the release of this pouch would look like.  I'd love to see a high speed of that rubber band pouch release too.




Quote:
Et est non simplicis habenae, ut Baliarica aliarumque gentium funda, sed triplex scutale, crebris suturis duratum, ne fluxa habena volutetur in iactu glans, sed librata cum sederit, velut nervo missa excutiatur.


Moreover, the sling is not composed of a single strap, like those of the Baleares and other peoples, but the bullet-carrier is triple, strengthened with numerous seams, that the missile may not fly out at random, from the pliancy of the strap at the moment of discharge,

but, seated firmly while being whirled,








may be shot out as if from a bow-string.


It seems you have finally solved the mystery! ;)

Title: Re: Leaping sling pouch
Post by joe_meadmaker on Apr 3rd, 2024 at 10:09am

Sarosh wrote on Apr 3rd, 2024 at 2:57am:
*LD-2

:thumb:



thabaill wrote on Apr 3rd, 2024 at 7:20am:
Lluis Pons' sling is not folded in the middle. Just like Sarosh's LD-2 sling pic joe_meadmaker posted.

Good observation!

Title: Re: Leaping sling pouch
Post by Jaegoor on Apr 4th, 2024 at 4:24am
A creased letter is not recommended. However, there are still a few ideas that can improve opening. A very old idea is to slit the leather several times. Preferably something offset. This creates a net-shaped structure when inserted. Historically, such letters are known from Hedeby, Schleswig and Groß Rathen. But a system I devised also works !

Title: Re: Leaping sling pouch
Post by TOMBELAINE on Apr 4th, 2024 at 6:36am
I forgot to precise the link was posted by David Morningstar.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqLaLP19zZ0
Sorry.


Jaegoor wrote on Apr 4th, 2024 at 4:24am:
A very old idea is to slit the leather several times. Preferably something offset. This creates a net-shaped structure when inserted. Historically, such letters are known from Hedeby, Schleswig and Groß Rathen.


Jaeggor, have you some photos ? And what is your system ?


Title: Re: Leaping sling pouch
Post by Jaegoor on Apr 5th, 2024 at 4:49am
This is a friend's sling. The letter has offset slits. The original comes from the Viking settlement of Hedeby. Haithabu. There are many similar ones. It works very well
hedeby_sling_by_olofdigre_d48bxo2-fullview.jpg (273 KB | 8 )

Title: Re: Leaping sling pouch
Post by Jaegoor on Apr 5th, 2024 at 5:00am
This is from me. I called it Honda popular. The special thing here is the tongue-shaped braiding on both sides. This is not just pure optics. This causes both sides to bend when pulled Letter up. The projectile is released faster. Rolling only occurs at the edges... I use it almost exclusively for very long distances
Screenshot_20240405-093955_2.png (1121 KB | 3 )

Title: Re: Leaping sling pouch
Post by Jaegoor on Apr 5th, 2024 at 5:06am
Another simplified form of the Honda popular. This has an additional eye in the holding barrel. This allows you to shoot small kestros arrows. Based on an idea by Jesu Vaga.
Screenshot_20240405-093931_2.png (866 KB | 4 )

Title: Re: Leaping sling pouch
Post by Rat Man on Apr 6th, 2024 at 2:58pm
Jaegoor, your slings are art. 

Title: Re: Leaping sling pouch
Post by Jaegoor on Apr 8th, 2024 at 4:23am
Thank you very much. Although I'm talking more about aesthetics. Throughout human history, it hasn't just been about functionality. It was always about aesthetics. All my slings are functional.

Title: Re: Leaping sling pouch
Post by thabaill on Apr 10th, 2024 at 2:18pm

Jaegoor wrote on Apr 5th, 2024 at 5:00am:
This is from me. I called it Honda popular. The special thing here is the tongue-shaped braiding on both sides. This is not just pure optics. This causes both sides to bend when pulled Letter up. The projectile is released faster. Rolling only occurs at the edges... I use it almost exclusively for very long distances


Hi Jaegoor, your slings are amazing! I can realize you took many hours to make them. As far as I can understand, you explain the tongue-shaped braiding makes an angle with the pouch to make it open faster. So it is like an reversed pouch and when you release the cord it tends to open by itself. Isn't it?

I have been told here that you are able to hit targets every time. But this is pretty amazing!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0263QMyMdU

I really need some lessons or a full course from you!

Greetings!

Title: Re: Leaping sling pouch
Post by Jaegoor on Apr 10th, 2024 at 10:52pm
I meant opening it a little differently. It's not easy to explain. When you shoot, a pull is created on the letter. With this braid, bend the edges upwards. 

Title: Re: Leaping sling pouch
Post by thabaill on Apr 11th, 2024 at 5:38pm
Indeed it is a very interesting idea.

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