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General >> Project Goliath - The History of The Sling >> Roman-era battle in SE Switzerland
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Message started by Thearos on Dec 19th, 2023 at 1:05pm

Title: Roman-era battle in SE Switzerland
Post by Thearos on Dec 19th, 2023 at 1:05pm
Battlefield explored in Graubünden: Roman troops vs Raetians (I assume), ca. 15 BCE: evidence for engines and sling bullets used by Romans ! Clear concentration of fire on no doubt crucial points of the Raetian formation.

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/sci-tech/swiss-roman-battle-site-reveals-hidden-secrets-of-historic-clash/49004988?fbclid=IwAR2JIHvHZYf1k2Z80ysJdJ862tHGSFEbEvzURcfMb6Vp1iJI4Wz_Ic69chQ

(NB how the metal detectorists located the site, but then handed over to the archaeologists, who are using battlefield archaeology to plot the finds-- if the detectorists had just pocketed all the sling bullets, we would not be able to reconstruct the battle. Now we will know patterns of fire and probably distance of engagement !)

Title: Re: Roman-era battle in SE Switzerland
Post by Teg on Dec 19th, 2023 at 2:48pm
Ah, they are going at the crap ses again.
I'm glad to see that they are reinvestigating it!
There were already some findings in 2003/2004.
I think i posted that some time ago...
https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1178569261


Jahrbuch der Schweizerischen Gesellschaft für Ur- und Frühgeschichte; 2004" pages 297-303

https://www.e-periodica.ch/cntmng?pid=adg-001%3A2003%3A0%3A%3A208

I occasionaly drive through there :D

Title: Re: Roman-era battle in SE Switzerland
Post by Jaegoor on Dec 19th, 2023 at 5:18pm
Teg how crap? I think the research is very good. I am involved in some tests.

Title: Re: Roman-era battle in SE Switzerland
Post by Jaegoor on Dec 19th, 2023 at 5:24pm
Thearos, hier einige Bleifunde. Es sind sehr interessante Objekte dabei.
FB_IMG_1703024544593.jpg (316 KB | 24 )

Title: Re: Roman-era battle in SE Switzerland
Post by Jaegoor on Dec 19th, 2023 at 6:00pm
Teg. I believe There is an error in the translation

Title: Re: Roman-era battle in SE Switzerland
Post by Teg on Dec 20th, 2023 at 1:48am

Jaegoor wrote on Dec 19th, 2023 at 5:18pm:
Teg how crap? I think the research is very good. I am involved in some tests.


...   :-X ...

Crap-Ses-Schlucht
Crap-Ses gorge. The defining geographical feature of this particular roman battlefield.

Title: Re: Roman-era battle in SE Switzerland
Post by Jaegoor on Dec 20th, 2023 at 3:45am
Teg. Yes, I thought so.😜🤓

Title: Re: Roman-era battle in SE Switzerland
Post by Jaegoor on Dec 20th, 2023 at 4:04am
Here is an interesting object. What happened there?
received_731506451858694.jpeg (31 KB | 23 )

Title: Re: Roman-era battle in SE Switzerland
Post by TOMBELAINE on Dec 20th, 2023 at 5:19am
In excavations, archeologists sometimes find such grooves in lead slingstones. They have no explanation.

Title: Re: Roman-era battle in SE Switzerland
Post by Jaegoor on Dec 20th, 2023 at 5:26am
I have an explanation

Title: Re: Roman-era battle in SE Switzerland
Post by TOMBELAINE on Dec 20th, 2023 at 5:31am
Ok which one ?

Title: Re: Roman-era battle in SE Switzerland
Post by Jaegoor on Dec 20th, 2023 at 6:01am
https://youtu.be/JjjItoZsggM?si=EF8J8-FeTq_tycGu

In a battle, fighters stand close to you. It is possible for a projectile to hit a blade. Or on the edge of a sign. I think an ax hit is likely. If the fighters stand in the shield wall, they have their axes raised.

Title: Re: Roman-era battle in SE Switzerland
Post by TOMBELAINE on Dec 20th, 2023 at 7:28am
Whaouhh ! Incredible shot !

If the patina is identical on the outside and inside, then the shock dates back to the time. Otherwise, it's much more recent. Plough share, for example.
It may also be a bad storage in the soldier's bag.
In any case, your hypothesis is credible.

Title: Re: Roman-era battle in SE Switzerland
Post by TOMBELAINE on Dec 20th, 2023 at 8:43am
A study in French to illustrate your idea, Jaeggor.
The photos are interesting.
https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=Balles_de_fronde_de_Marcus_Agrippa___Agen.pdf (3302 KB | 28 )

Title: Re: Roman-era battle in SE Switzerland
Post by Jaegoor on Dec 20th, 2023 at 11:47am
Gracias 🙏

received_321869124007824.jpeg (6 KB | 20 )

Title: Re: Roman-era battle in SE Switzerland
Post by Archaic Arms on Jan 2nd, 2024 at 5:17pm

TOMBELAINE wrote on Dec 20th, 2023 at 5:19am:
In excavations, archeologists sometimes find such grooves in lead slingstones. They have no explanation.

Perhaps the groove was struck into them before use, so that they make sound in flight? It's much quicker and easier than drilling a hole.

Title: Re: Roman-era battle in SE Switzerland
Post by Jaegoor on Jan 3rd, 2024 at 4:25pm
A hole is not a groove. During production you could cast a groove straight away. And why are they so rare? It can also be injuries caused by field work. But it is very probably that they are posted somewhere. A blade. On the sign.

Title: Re: Roman-era battle in SE Switzerland
Post by Foresight17 on Jan 4th, 2024 at 6:57am

Jaegoor wrote on Dec 20th, 2023 at 6:01am:
https://youtu.be/JjjItoZsggM?si=EF8J8-FeTq_tycGu

In a battle, fighters stand close to you. It is possible for a projectile to hit a blade. Or on the edge of a sign. I think an ax hit is likely. If the fighters stand in the shield wall, they have their axes raised.


I think ur spot on with that theory, it makes the most sense to find a few sharply damaged bullets on a battlefield filled with blades. Very cool find that one.

Title: Re: Roman-era battle in SE Switzerland
Post by Jaegoor on Jan 4th, 2024 at 10:45am
It would be worth a study
il_794xN_5495307725_hzod.jpg (18 KB | 15 )

Title: Re: Roman-era battle in SE Switzerland
Post by Archaic Arms on Jan 4th, 2024 at 3:31pm

Jaegoor wrote on Jan 3rd, 2024 at 4:25pm:
A hole is not a groove. During production you could cast a groove straight away. And why are they so rare? It can also be injuries caused by field work. But it is very probably that they are posted somewhere. A blade. On the sign.

It wouldn't whistle like a hole, but it would hum no doubt. It's not practical to try and cast it with a groove, for the same reason they didn't cast biconical bullets with holes, and instead drilled them after. First there are more complications in casting, and secondly, the edges need to be sharp to produce a good sound.
Any slinger could have made the gash with a knife/axe and a mallet when bored.

The main problem with your theory is that it appears the bullet was struck at least twice by an edge, not once.
What I see is that first strike was shallow and along the full length of the bullet, and the second bit off line as well as deeper.
I may be wrong, but that's how it appears to me. 
Sling_bullet_with_gash_3.jpg (114 KB | 14 )

Title: Re: Roman-era battle in SE Switzerland
Post by Jaegoor on Jan 4th, 2024 at 9:54pm
Yes, they are wrong. Several times. Please show me a lead that has been drilled. Although there are some leads with holes, there is no scientific evidence that these holes exist were drilled. Holes are often caused by temperature errors during casting. If the mold is too cold, the lead will cool down too quickly. Holes appear. I cast thousands of leads. And I can consciously bring this about. The lead in the picture is most likely struck with the lower tip and rolled off the blade. This also happened in my test. It depends on how you use the bullet have spun. It will unroll exactly like in the picture. Or across. A slight diagonal is also possible. I have now scored various blade hits.You too? Casting such a groove is easy. Even with a sharp edge. By the way, where is the sharp edge in the picture? By the way, refinishing lead is a very ugly task. I did it. Acorns with a hole are known from England. I've done experiments with it. You don't have to water or drill them. In Switzerland, too, bullet holes were found in some of them. I recreated it. I drilled holes or created them through casting errors. In both cases the diameter was too small to produce a whistling sound. Well so what.  :P

Title: Re: Roman-era battle in SE Switzerland
Post by Jaegoor on Jan 4th, 2024 at 10:04pm
Here is an original. Exactly how the hole came about is not yet clear. Such holes are caused by casting defects. But they whistle not. I tried it several times
FB_IMG_1704423571652.jpg (15 KB | 15 )

Title: Re: Roman-era battle in SE Switzerland
Post by Jaegoor on Jan 4th, 2024 at 10:09pm
Here is a replica. The hole was drilled with the same diameter as the original. But since it didn't want to whistle, I narrowed the outside diameter a little. In this case the diameter was but already too small beforehand. It doesn't whistle.
FB_IMG_1704423619318.jpg (74 KB | 16 )

Title: Re: Roman-era battle in SE Switzerland
Post by Jaegoor on Jan 4th, 2024 at 10:16pm
Look closely. You will find a lead with an angled serve. 😁
7a989d92482d4ae77bcd66d9854d71b3.jpg (98 KB | 13 )

Title: Re: Roman-era battle in SE Switzerland
Post by Jaegoor on Jan 4th, 2024 at 10:22pm
A nice hit. The projectile flew forward sharply. Hit a little below the tip and rolled off. The ax was not sharpened. A rough axe.
20230423_161828_2.JPG (269 KB | 15 )

Title: Re: Roman-era battle in SE Switzerland
Post by Archaic Arms on Jan 5th, 2024 at 4:57pm

Jaegoor wrote on Jan 4th, 2024 at 9:54pm:
Yes, they are wrong. Several times. Please show me a lead that has been drilled. Although there are some leads with holes, there is no scientific evidence that these holes exist were drilled. Holes are often caused by temperature errors during casting. If the mold is too cold, the lead will cool down too quickly. Holes appear. I cast thousands of leads. And I can consciously bring this about. The lead in the picture is most likely struck with the lower tip and rolled off the blade. This also happened in my test. It depends on how you use the bullet have spun. It will unroll exactly like in the picture. Or across. A slight diagonal is also possible. I have now scored various blade hits.You too? Casting such a groove is easy. Even with a sharp edge. By the way, where is the sharp edge in the picture? By the way, refinishing lead is a very ugly task. I did it. Acorns with a hole are known from England. I've done experiments with it. You don't have to water or drill them. In Switzerland, too, bullet holes were found in some of them. I recreated it. I drilled holes or created them through casting errors. In both cases the diameter was too small to produce a whistling sound. Well so what.  :P

It seems quite a bold claim to suggest that no bullets had drilled holes. Famously, the Burnswark bullets come to mind. The researchers claim they are drilled holes. Some of the bullets do indeed look like your replicas, but others are pill shaped with a hole in the side, not so easy with your dipping method. Have you replicated these too?
I'm also aware of defects, as I've also done lots of metal casting. It's not surprised the defects don't make sound, a parallel sided hole works best.

Your strike on the axe blade left a nice clean line, not at all like the artifact. If you can replicate a similar mark, then it will be conclusive.

How do you cast a bullet with a groove with a ceramic mould? To make a groove, every bullet cavity would have to have a very thin ridge, I see many potential problems with that. In this period the Romans were casting a "tree" of connected bullets, with ceramic moulds. Often each half is misaligned, leading to odd shaped bullets. All of the bullets were trimmed and lead flashing hammered flush. So while it may be "ugly" job like you say, they still did it.
I've done experiments with drilled holes on metal bullets, and they whistle well. I've also done this with clay. The placement and size of hole has a big influence.

What do you think of this one, defect or drilled hole?
Roman_whistling_sling_bullet_4_5x1_7cm_64_2g_40BC.png (764 KB | 20 )

Title: Re: Roman-era battle in SE Switzerland
Post by Jaegoor on Jan 5th, 2024 at 7:33pm
It's just as bold to say the holes were drilled. If you want certainty, you have to examine it carefully. And I'm not aware of any scientific research. But I know that one Switzerland is interested in examining it closely. And sorry to say, the diameters I know don't whistle. No matter whether drilled or a casting defect. Also their glay projectile with hole There was no real whistle to be heard. There is a wide range of quality. The Roman bullets were often very good. Many had a Legion stamp. I don't like any trees from Romans known. Casting a groove is not difficult. Put a piece of metal in the mold. They already have their groove. You can also pour holes this way. Why is my hit shaped like this? Because the The cutting edge of the ax is shaped differently. And then my bullets didn't lie in the ground for 2000 years.I only know the acorn from England from a few pictures. There are also strangely shaped ones. Also across. That's right. There are various explanations. You don't have to drill here either. To your picture. I can't see well. Is it an original? Where is it from? So I can't say exactly.Drilling is possible. But there are also other possible explanations

Title: Re: Roman-era battle in SE Switzerland
Post by Jaegoor on Jan 10th, 2024 at 10:37pm
More surcharges
20230416_223441_2.jpeg (163 KB | 12 )

Title: Re: Roman-era battle in SE Switzerland
Post by Jaegoor on Jan 10th, 2024 at 10:40pm
🤓
20230409_155508_2.JPG (81 KB | 13 )

Title: Re: Roman-era battle in SE Switzerland
Post by Thearos on Jan 15th, 2024 at 6:43pm
Hahaha
Is Crap-ses a Rumantsch expression ?

Title: Re: Roman-era battle in SE Switzerland
Post by Jaegoor on Jan 16th, 2024 at 2:04pm
A little video about it  https://youtu.be/nkN9MkvZHk4?si=bcbpbdbnVe8os9o1

Title: Re: Roman-era battle in SE Switzerland
Post by IronGoober on Jan 17th, 2024 at 2:13am
@Jaegoor  Excellent video. I am wondering if you have also tried something else for a point-first flight.

For clarification:
Coordinates of the sling upon projectile release

Release cord = North
Retention cord = South
Projectile exit = West
Toward slinger = East

Have you tried placing the gland a bit to the west? When I tried this, it would also help achieve a point-first flight and impact.
ProjectilePlacement.png (765 KB | 14 )

Title: Re: Roman-era battle in SE Switzerland
Post by Jaegoor on Jan 17th, 2024 at 2:48am
I tried a few things. So far I have controlled it with a movement of my hand. But it didn't work very well in the experiments in Switzerland. It was extremely hot. After Shooting for almost a day, I was happy to still be in the right direction. I was no longer able to control my hand perfectly. That's why I thought about it and came across this solution. It is easy to implement. Can be used reliably even under stress and exhaustion.

Title: Re: Roman-era battle in SE Switzerland
Post by Teg on Jan 17th, 2024 at 12:08pm

Thearos wrote on Jan 15th, 2024 at 6:43pm:
Is Crap-ses a Rumantsch expression ?

Yes, it is.

Title: Re: Roman-era battle in SE Switzerland
Post by Archaic Arms on Jan 17th, 2024 at 3:56pm
For me, there are three things that determine a rifle spin release.
1. Being adjusted to the harmonics of the sling
2. The sling is pliable enough to open properly
3. There is enough friction to impart sufficient spin to the projectile.

For example, I've recently adjusted to the harmonics of Egyptian slings, and now when I use a Balearic sling, the projectile flies nose down. Different slings have different harmonics.
A stiff sling will also hinder a stable rifle spin with light projectiles, since it cant follow the radius and open properly. This is easy to observe with a fully waxed sling before and after "annealing".
On the topic of lead, I find the bullet has to be slightly flattened in shape for sufficient spin to be imparted,(otherwise it can skid) but that's also because I use lower friction slings. (compared to say, a soft leather pouch)

Title: Re: Roman-era battle in SE Switzerland
Post by xud9a - call me zud 👍 on Jan 20th, 2024 at 4:33am
Very informative video.
Thanks Jaegoor.
👍😁

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