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General >> General Slinging Discussion >> The most accurate slinging style (change my mind)
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Message started by NooneOfConsequence on Mar 6th, 2023 at 9:50am

Title: The most accurate slinging style (change my mind)
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Mar 6th, 2023 at 9:50am
OkÖ Iíll admit my title was a bit click-baitey. Sorry, not sorry, because Iím about to explain why accuracy is actually easier with this styleÖ specifically for short range targets that arenít in motion. Feel free to disagree, but please do try it and THEN letís debate the merits. And of course, remember that any style requires a lot of practice to build the muscle memory, so youíll be better at the style youíre most practiced with generally even if itís an inferior style  ;D

Bottom line up-frontÖ the best style for learning short range accuracy is an inline underhand windup with a sidearm throw. The number of pre-rotations in the windup doesnít seem to matter. What does matter is that the windup is in line with the shot, and the power stroke doesnít pull the shot off the line. Basically think of punching at the target in the power stroke instead of swinging the arm in an arc.

Why is this the best? In any slinging style, accuracy comes down to two things: form and timing. In an inline vertical windup, form primarily dictates left and right aim, and release timing controls vertical aim.
Timing is more difficult to perfect than form, and a late release is more common than an early release. With an underhand windup, a late release will fly above the targetÖ but gravity pulls the shot back down, which helps compensate for small timing errors.

Compare this to something like a Byzantine, where timing mostly controls left/right aim and body form controls vertical aim. Gravity compensates for form instead of timing, and form is actually easier to get right compared to timing precision, so inline vertical beats Byzantine.

What about Balearic style where the windup is behind the back?  Balearic style doesnít isolate form errors from timing errors. If you miss, itís more difficult to know how to correct the problem.  With inline verticals (assuming a right-handed slinger), a miss to the right means the windup was pointed to the right of the bullseye and you need to bend the elbow a bit more during the windup. A miss left is either misaligned windup OR a really late release where your arm pulls inward before the ammo exits the pouch.  A really late release will almost always be both left AND above the aim point. A good power stroke form will a late release will hit directly above the bullseye. The point here is that you can diagnose the shot and make adjustments more easily on the followup shot with an inline windup, but Balearic style doesnít isolate variables, so itís difficult to diagnose a miss.

Figure-8 (or any overhand windup)? A late release will fly low, and gravity accentuates the problem instead of mitigating it.

Can you learn to be accurate with other styles? YesÖ obviously, but the fastest and easiest way to get accurate is with an underhand inline windup.  Change my mind.




Title: Re: The most accurate slinging style (change my mind)
Post by AncientCraftwork on Mar 6th, 2023 at 12:49pm
it's also easy on the joints

Title: Re: The most accurate slinging style (change my mind)
Post by Yfir on Mar 6th, 2023 at 4:37pm
I can vouch for Balearic style misses being hard to diagnose. I've been trying on that style for more than a year and I still don't know what I'm doing wrong when I miss.

I've started practicing figure 8 lately and I'm finding it far easier to correct than Balearic.

Title: Re: The most accurate slinging style (change my mind)
Post by JudoP on Mar 6th, 2023 at 6:24pm
I think the power stroke being inline with the wind up has a very positive effect on accuracy. This is one of my main problems with balearic style as I struggle to convert a more vertical wind up (well, half and half) to a more horizontal power stroke. For ages I always shot high because the sling retained some rising motion from the more vertical wind up. What really killed it was that the amount of rise I got was dependant on the mass of the ammo and the length of the sling, which as you can imagine caused a lot of inconsistency as I moved between different ammo and slings. I think a properly executed balearic throw minimises this effect and mine has improved somewhat towards this too.

Title: Re: The most accurate slinging style (change my mind)
Post by joe_meadmaker on Mar 6th, 2023 at 7:26pm
I'm not sure if I disagree or not yet.

I've definitely seen your throw, but would you consider either of these to be the same style?

I timed stamped the links so you'll see a throw right away.

https://youtu.be/Rqk1Sys_qUs?t=63
https://youtu.be/zO9-sKjfC4M?t=300

I'm assuming not because the rotor isn't quite inline with the target, and I go into a much more side arm release (not just arm movement) during the power stroke.† Just want to confirm that's your assessment as well.

Title: Re: The most accurate slinging style (change my mind)
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Mar 6th, 2023 at 8:14pm
Itís close Joe. I started off doing exactly what you are in that video, but eventually I figured out how to eliminate the inward pull. As you mentioned, thereís a slight inward pull during your power stroke, and the windup points to the right of the target.

Title: Re: The most accurate slinging style (change my mind)
Post by Mersa on Mar 7th, 2023 at 6:01am
Convincing argument.
My most common miss is actually high to the right , itís mainly when Iím trying to put too much power in the shot. I think itís more a mental issue than a form issue I donít set my goal in my head as the target but just throwing hard . It happens a lot in my distance training, it could also be related to my small knot slipping earlier with more power and maybe some pouch ammo interactions .

Title: Re: The most accurate slinging style (change my mind)
Post by TOMBELAINE on Mar 7th, 2023 at 6:53am
NOOC, I'm agree with you about 90%.
I'm not comfortable with "horizontal" rotations. That's why I prefer underarm and overhand. However my accuracy is better with overhand. I think it's because in the final, we push our hand towards the target.


Mersa wrote on Mar 7th, 2023 at 6:01am:
I think itís more a mental issue than a form issue I donít set my goal in my head as the target but just throwing hard

100% ok.

Title: Re: The most accurate slinging style (change my mind)
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Mar 7th, 2023 at 7:27am
InterestingÖ Mersa, you and Iron Goober are both distance/power slingers, and you both trend towards missing early instead of late.† This suggests that a late-shooter might do better by increasing the shot power, rather than going slow.† It would be very counterintuitive to go faster if timing errors are the source of inaccuracy 🤔
Needs more investigation.

Title: Re: The most accurate slinging style (change my mind)
Post by Rat Man on Mar 7th, 2023 at 8:37am
† †I agree, NOOC.† Underarm isn't the best for distance because the associated topspin causes the projectile to drop but for me personally Underarm has always been the most accurate style.

Title: Re: The most accurate slinging style (change my mind)
Post by IronGoober on Mar 7th, 2023 at 9:31am

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Mar 7th, 2023 at 7:27am:
InterestingÖ Mersa, you and Iron Goober are both distance/power slingers, and you both trend towards missing early instead of late.† This suggests that a late-shooter might do better by increasing the shot power, rather than going slow.† It would be very counterintuitive to go faster if timing errors are the source of inaccuracy 🤔
Needs more investigation.


Diagnosing a miss with balearic style is easy!
1. Did the ball hit where you aimed?
Yes --> good job, you did it right.
No --> You did it wrong.

Easy.

How did I do? Mind changed yet?


Title: Re: The most accurate slinging style (change my mind)
Post by IronGoober on Mar 7th, 2023 at 9:47am
One thing I wonder about all of this is:
Are the things we think we are doing actually what we are doing? or is something else happening.

Sometimes I think I am throwing harder because I put in more effort, but my radar gun has shown me that effort does not equal velocity. Having the correct sequencing and the optimal lag angle compared to your hand motion (i.e. hand path) is what gives the most power. I learned this from video analysis. (I'm not sure how you would do it without video analysis or without a knowledgeable person watching you sling)

I wonder when one desires to change their release point, i.e. release early, or release late, are they actually just holding on to the sling longer/shorter, or are they doing something different with their arm/hand.

I think that it is the latter.

I've noticed that I always release at the end of my throwing motion, regardless of what happens to the sling before my hand gets to the end of it's travel. This is what I feel when I sling.† If I accelerated to quickly to the end of travel before the sling catches up (which for me is feeling like I'm throwing too hard), then I miss early (right). However, if I'm too slow with my acceleration of the sling, I miss left. I don't give the release timing any thought.† It is possible I'm changing the timing, but I think it is more likely that I accelerate my arm/hand through the slinging motion to fast or too slow relative to the sling motion and that is what causes the miss. That is why accuracy is so difficult, it is a timing of the acceleration as well as being able to consistently release. I think the latter comes with much practice. It is just like any throw, you "let go" at the end of your arm travel. And letting go isn't conscious, it is just a relaxing of the grip. But timing the acceleration of the sling through the entire slinging motion, that is the hardest part to get right and be consistent.† I'm not sure of the best way to train your brain to get this part right.† I think one of Morphy's ideas about a slinging 'nocking' point is a good one. This is where you use a particular point in the sling path to begin the power-stroke and only accelerate when it reaches this point. I made a video about it a while back. But the more I think about it, the more I think there is something to it. I wish he'd written something about it here. I only got it from him in conversations elsewhere.

These are all very recent ideas I've had about the slinging motion and could be very flawed. But I bet some slow-mo video analysis would be able to figure some of these things out.

Title: Re: The most accurate slinging style (change my mind)
Post by joe_meadmaker on Mar 7th, 2023 at 2:29pm

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Mar 7th, 2023 at 7:27am:
InterestingÖ Mersa, you and Iron Goober are both distance/power slingers, and you both trend towards missing early instead of late.† This suggests that a late-shooter might do better by increasing the shot power, rather than going slow.† It would be very counterintuitive to go faster if timing errors are the source of inaccuracy 🤔
Needs more investigation.

I've noticed this happening in the past.† On days when accuracy is crap I've gotten frustrated and thought 'If I'm not hitting the target I might as well start throwing really hard just for fun'.† And hits start occurring.† Definitely not a one time occurrence either.

Title: Re: The most accurate slinging style (change my mind)
Post by Blindsquirrel on Mar 7th, 2023 at 5:16pm
Which ever one that throws to the slingers point of aim.🤪

Title: Re: The most accurate slinging style (change my mind)
Post by Yfir on Mar 7th, 2023 at 5:30pm

IronGoober wrote on Mar 7th, 2023 at 9:47am:
If I accelerated to quickly to the end of travel before the sling catches up (which for me is feeling like I'm throwing too hard), then I miss early (right). However, if I'm too slow with my acceleration of the sling, I miss left.

That's similar to how I feel when doing side-arm throws. I more often miss to the left, and when I do my power-stroke feels off.

Occasionally I'd be making accurate shots consistently then all of a sudden it drops and I can't regain it. It's hard to know the exact timing of when to begin the power-stroke.

Title: Re: The most accurate slinging style (change my mind)
Post by AncientCraftwork on Mar 8th, 2023 at 7:00am

JudoP wrote on Mar 6th, 2023 at 6:24pm:
I think the power stroke being inline with the wind up has a very positive effect on accuracy. This is one of my main problems with balearic style as I struggle to convert a more vertical wind up (well, half and half) to a more horizontal power stroke. For ages I always shot high because the sling retained some rising motion from the more vertical wind up. What really killed it was that the amount of rise I got was dependant on the mass of the ammo and the length of the sling, which as you can imagine caused a lot of inconsistency as I moved between different ammo and slings. I think a properly executed balearic throw minimises this effect and mine has improved somewhat towards this too.


I agree with the wind up being inline with the powerstroke being beneficial for accuracy. The sudden change of angle otherwise can mess with the pouch orientation

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