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General >> Project Goliath - The History of The Sling >> Greek style : Lecuyer
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Message started by TOMBELAINE on Feb 16th, 2023 at 5:04am

Title: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by TOMBELAINE on Feb 16th, 2023 at 5:04am
Thanks Thearos for this picture.
I tested this morning about ten pebbles. Perfect for "old Indian hunting style". Holding the release cord between two fingers, no need for thumb.
Skin to hide for game, a peasant hat, no weapon, maybe, we have a poor citizen who goes to war with his hunting gear. Just an hypothesis.
Lecuyer_001_001.jpg (24 KB | 69 )

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by Thearos on Feb 19th, 2023 at 4:04pm
Bravo !

I always found the representation of the feet very accurate

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by joe_meadmaker on Feb 19th, 2023 at 7:31pm

TOMBELAINE wrote on Feb 16th, 2023 at 5:04am:
Holding the release cord between two fingers, no need for thumb.

I'll have to try that out.

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by TOMBELAINE on Feb 20th, 2023 at 6:00am
Hi,
Does someone know the meaning of the text ?

Just my gesture from the drawing (others are probably possible) : rotate the pelvis (feet turn by themselves), keep the left arm aligned on the target and bring right hand next to left hand.
On about twenty shots this morning, I hite the target (a rock at thirty meters) twice with bad peebles. I lack training but I think there is potential with this technique.

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by TOMBELAINE on Feb 22nd, 2023 at 2:28am

joe_meadmaker wrote on Feb 19th, 2023 at 7:31pm:
Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Reply #2 - Feb 19th, 2023 at 7:31pm   TOMBELAINE wrote on Feb 16th, 2023 at 5:04am:
Holding the release cord between two fingers, no need for thumb.

I'll have to try that out.

Tell us your impressions.

I read on this forum the testimony of the "old Indian". I can't find it anymore but I'm not very good either. Obviously, there are similarities between his testimony and the drawing.

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by TOMBELAINE on Mar 7th, 2023 at 9:36am
Here's Rueben's video about "old Indian".
http://www.youtube.com/user/ruebenschulz#p/a/u/0/Dqtv2o3T2AI

And now my hypothesis for the Greek picture.
The holding of the release cord is perfectly adapted and creates no problem.
I still have to train but there is potential.
grec_001.JPG (88 KB | 50 )
grec_002.JPG (87 KB | 47 )
grec_003.JPG (85 KB | 38 )

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by IronGoober on Mar 7th, 2023 at 1:47pm
So, you're basically a human trebuchet. Interesting..

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by joe_meadmaker on Mar 7th, 2023 at 8:07pm

IronGoober wrote on Mar 7th, 2023 at 1:47pm:
So, you're basically a human trebuchet. Interesting..

Hmmm...wonder if you held a counter weight in the other hand.  It might just throw you off balance though.

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by TOMBELAINE on Mar 8th, 2023 at 2:40am
There are commons points between the video and my photos despite a different starting position. Pelvic pivot, arm swing and no pre-rotation.
I still have details to work on but my first results are as follow : an estimated velocity of the projectile just under 100 kms/h (or about 30 meters per second, the range of my target but it's just a feeling) and improved accuracy.
Do these first results allow hunting ? I think so but I'm not hunter.


Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by StaffSlinger on Mar 27th, 2023 at 8:42am
Tomberlaine -- what is the length of sling that you're using in those pictures?  It look much shorter than I see a lot of slingers using. 

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by TOMBELAINE on Mar 28th, 2023 at 2:10pm
The release belt measures 50 cms. It's an old sling I have.
On the drawing, its lenght can be estimated at 70 cms. Approximatively.
I am currently testing a new technique. Direct fire straight ahead. I'll take pictures as soon as possible.
From an old drawing, finding the most likely gesture is exciting. We have to leave what we think we know so as not to miss a gesture that may have disappeared today.

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by TOMBELAINE on Apr 3rd, 2023 at 7:08am
I tested two methods : trebuchet and straight ahead. It's personal  but I prefer the second.
Having no chamois or calfskin, I took my coat. It's necessary to shift the right arm outwards.
In red, the position of the sling.
001_011.JPG (88 KB | 47 )
002_005.JPG (90 KB | 40 )
003_004.JPG (93 KB | 44 )
004_004.JPG (84 KB | 37 )

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by TOMBELAINE on Apr 4th, 2023 at 5:02am
This is my methodology.
I tested 4 different releases. Circular on the right side, abandoned. Bottom circular, abandoned. Circular over, trebuchet. And straight ahead.
I tested the two last in the forest. Definite advantage for the latter : less movement for comparable power.
I also tested with and without fingerloop. It's better with.
If others members want to try, I'm very happy to have their input.

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by joe_meadmaker on Apr 4th, 2023 at 4:32pm

TOMBELAINE wrote on Apr 4th, 2023 at 5:02am:
Circular over, trebuchet. And straight ahead.

Can you elaborate on the difference between these?

I'm picturing 'circular on the right' as a sidearm release.  'Bottom circular' as an underhand release.  And 'circular over' as an overhand trebuchet-like release.  But I picture a straight ahead throw being very similar to the overhand trebuchet method.

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by TOMBELAINE on Apr 5th, 2023 at 5:12am
In the movement " straight ahead", the arm leaves in the axis. With my poor English, it's difficult to explain better.

An illustration of a "trebuchet" style. (Old Indian)
http://www.youtube.com/user/ruebenschulz#p/a/u/0/Dqtv2o3T2AI

From the position of the hand "palm to top", the Greek drawing would plead for "trebuchet". However the drawing represents the starting position but il does not describe the evolution of the movement.

Just my conclusions and I can be wrong. But I love this work.

Looking for old gestures is a very random undertaking. And for those who are interested, the position of the feet on Makron cup (shared by Thearos) is identical but in a war context.


Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by TOMBELAINE on Apr 5th, 2023 at 1:37pm
Tomorrow, Ill do a drawing to explain better (I hope).

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by joe_meadmaker on Apr 5th, 2023 at 9:46pm
Sounds good.  Thanks!

It's also no problem though.  I'm still planning to try this style and post a video.  I just haven't had a chance yet.  I'm hoping to in the next couple weeks.

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by TOMBELAINE on Apr 6th, 2023 at 8:10am

joe_meadmaker wrote on Apr 4th, 2023 at 4:32pm:

TOMBELAINE wrote on Apr 4th, 2023 at 5:02am:
Circular over, trebuchet. And straight ahead.

Can you elaborate on the difference between these?

I'm picturing 'circular on the right' as a sidearm release.  'Bottom circular' as an underhand release.  And 'circular over' as an overhand trebuchet-like release.  But I picture a straight ahead throw being very similar to the overhand trebuchet method.


Yes. Here is my drawing.
The important thing is to go straight ahead with a constant acceleration.
For physiological reasons, I find more convenient to have the palm out

img275.jpg (78 KB | 38 )

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by TOMBELAINE on Apr 6th, 2023 at 8:16am
Hello Joe Meadmaker,
I hope my explain is clear.
Soon, we can see your video.
Is your foot better ?

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by joe_meadmaker on Apr 6th, 2023 at 8:04pm
I think I understand.  When I'm able to record a video, I'll try all the styles and we'll find out if I'm doing them as you're envisioning.


Thanks for asking about my foot.  It's doing better.  My full range of motion hasn't completely returned yet.  Also my ankle and lower leg swell up throughout the day as I move around, and the swelling goes down during the night.  But overall I'm able to move around almost normally now.

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by TOMBELAINE on Apr 7th, 2023 at 4:46am
Your wound is getting better. All the better.

Otherwise, you test as you feel. Details have certainly eluded me. With two people, we understand more than we do alone.

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by Thearos on Apr 13th, 2023 at 10:03am
Fantastic thread ! Really itnersting to see tht the release is possible, and hence might be realistically represented.

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by TOMBELAINE on Apr 25th, 2023 at 8:39am
The position of feet is identical.
The left arm is used for an ancillary activity : camouflage or transport of ammunitions.
So, I make the assumption that the style of throwing is identical with this grip. Tested this morning, it works without problem.
I make photos to illustrate my assumption.

001_012.JPG (47 KB | 33 )
Makron2_001_001.jpg (70 KB | 39 )

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by TOMBELAINE on Apr 26th, 2023 at 11:36am
Photo 1 : the basket of ammunition.
Photo 2 : the starting position. Loading the sling is easy.
001_013.JPG (116 KB | 35 )
002_006.JPG (87 KB | 32 )

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by TOMBELAINE on Apr 26th, 2023 at 11:42am
Photo 3 : without moving the left arm, send the sling under.
Photo 4 : let lean backwards. The grip with two fingers allows a very fine feel of the tension. Just my idea.
003_005.JPG (88 KB | 32 )
004_005.JPG (90 KB | 34 )

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by TOMBELAINE on Apr 26th, 2023 at 11:45am
Photo 5 : straight ahead like the hunter.

I love this style because I find it easier than others.
005_001.JPG (85 KB | 36 )

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by TOMBELAINE on May 15th, 2023 at 6:29am
https://books.openedition.org/pcjb/5944

Here's a text in French. A small summary.

Use of leather as protection :
illustration 1, apron under the shield.
illustration 2, protection in contact with game.

Raw or tanned skins serv as clothing for the poor.
They are also used to camouflage themselves.

A text from the 2nd century BC says that the pouch of the slings are made with leather. The text is ambiguous about the material of the straps : leather or vegetable ?

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by joe_meadmaker on May 16th, 2023 at 9:36pm
I did try this style but was absolutely terrible.  I want to do some recording but need to practice it a bit more first.

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by TOMBELAINE on May 17th, 2023 at 11:32am
In my opinion, the difficulty is not to make a setback like in tennis but a straight line with constant acceleration.
I will watch your next video with great pleasure.

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by joe_meadmaker on Jun 16th, 2023 at 12:50pm
The image (from the first post) seems to be from this: https://www.gazette-drouot.com/en/article/an-exemplary-archaeological-collection-of-louis-gabriel-bellon/30810.  The date in the caption says 475-425 BC.  When the article opens, if you click on the picture you'll see a full view.

And I did have a second session with this style, which went much better than the first.  I'm cutting the video together and it will be posted soon.

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by joe_meadmaker on Jun 22nd, 2023 at 10:31pm
Here's my video trying out this style.

https://youtu.be/dmTvGFJ6FFs

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by StaffSlinger on Jun 24th, 2023 at 10:53pm
Great video, Joe!  Underhand would work well if you were putting in a game of sling golf...

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by joe_meadmaker on Jun 25th, 2023 at 3:14pm
Thanks!

And yeah, I didn't think of that.  If a slow and precise throw was needed for a close range target, underhand could certainly work.

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by IronGoober on Jun 26th, 2023 at 12:46pm
That is pretty cool, Joe. I'm surprised at how fast you were whipping those overhand throws. I'll have to give this a try.

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by joe_meadmaker on Jun 26th, 2023 at 6:47pm
Thanks!  I was surprised as well.  That release knot hold got comfortable much faster than I expected it to.


Something else I'll drop in here.  Sarosh (Acroballistics) left a comment on the video with the following:

I think the vase depicts a loop for release on the index finger instead of a knot between fingers. The loop on the index finger would then be released like an amentum attached to a javelin. I have tried such technique on darts with looped strings, the release is good and powerful as a normal knot and thumb grip release.(the video is titled "Is A Cord Enough?") at the time I used 2mm cord for the loop and it hurt a little on release. I will have to try that again on a sling.

I'm certainly not sure, but I think a release loop rather than a knot could very well be what's happening in the image.  I'm going to try that method the next time I have a chance.

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by TOMBELAINE on Jul 11th, 2023 at 9:06am
My videos are not classy but I hope they are understandable.
Straight shot. Usable in the woods and in the middle of a battle. For info, I tested in a wood, not in a battle.

https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=DSCN4880.MOV (2435 KB | 52 )

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by joe_meadmaker on Jul 11th, 2023 at 12:39pm
Nice throw! :thumb:

You have much more of an underhand motion than I did.  I think the sling you have is better suited to that.  The sling I used was quite long and thin, so not good for building speed in a very short amount of time.

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by TOMBELAINE on Jul 12th, 2023 at 3:44am
2 different and good looks from 1 image, I find the exercise interesting.
Joe Meadmaker and I are agree on 2 points : the grip is soft and a short sling is better.
On the other hand, Joe opts for a complete rotation of the pelvis. Not me. Both are valid, everyone must seek what works for him.
For me, a short sling and a gesture entirely in the axis of the shot allows a use in the woods.
It also remind me of the Trajan column. Just a thought for a use in a battle.

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by TOMBELAINE on Jul 14th, 2023 at 10:52am

joe_meadmaker wrote on Jun 26th, 2023 at 6:47pm:
Something else I'll drop in here.  Sarosh (Acroballistics) left a comment on the video with the following:

I think the vase depicts a loop for release on the index finger instead of a knot between fingers. The loop on the index finger would then be released like an amentum attached to a javelin. I have tried such technique on darts with looped strings, the release is good and powerful as a normal knot and thumb grip release.(the video is titled "Is A Cord Enough?") at the time I used 2mm cord for the loop and it hurt a little on release. I will have to try that again on a sling.

Some pictures of different grips.
https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=enluminures_001.pdf (299 KB | 47 )

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by joe_meadmaker on Jul 14th, 2023 at 6:56pm
The image in the lower right looks like a release loop, as Acro was describing.
Slinger-ReleaseLoop.jpg (59 KB | 32 )

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by TOMBELAINE on Jul 15th, 2023 at 2:58am
Yes  :)
There is an idea here to dig.

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by StaffSlinger on Jul 16th, 2023 at 4:10pm
Joe -- what's the source of that image?  By the shape of the shield that's an 11-12th century Norman figure similar to the Bayeaux Tapestry...

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by joe_meadmaker on Jul 16th, 2023 at 10:43pm
Quite so.  It took a little searching, but I believe I found it.

According to https://historyofinformation.com/detail.php?id=2264, the image is from a book written in the late 12th century called Liber ad honorem Augusti sive de rebus Siculis.

The article links a digital copy of the work.  Here is a link to the specific page which shows the slinger: https://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/bbb/0120-2/132r/0/Sequence-2734

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by TOMBELAINE on Jul 18th, 2023 at 7:00am
Thanks for your search, Joe Meadmaker.
Tested this morning in a wood, this grip works very well.
A bit like a fustibal but better mastered. We control the moment of release.
DSCN4882.JPG (85 KB | 34 )

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by TOMBELAINE on Aug 7th, 2023 at 4:41am
This style is not very powerful. But here's the result of an impact. A rock is my target.
2 photos of the peeble, before and after !
002_008.JPG (79 KB | 31 )
003_007.JPG (101 KB | 31 )

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by joe_meadmaker on Aug 8th, 2023 at 2:30pm
Well, that stone certainly didn't hold up.  ;D

I still haven't tried this style with the release loop yet.  I'll give it a try next weekend if the weather is good.

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by TOMBELAINE on Dec 7th, 2023 at 11:20am
I "arm" the shot. It's necessary that  the stone is in the same axis of the sling.
003_005.jpg (88 KB | 16 )
004_005.jpg (90 KB | 14 )

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by joe_meadmaker on Dec 8th, 2023 at 12:00am
That is a good thought.  I still haven't revisited this technique using a release loop.  I really need to give that a try if I can find the time.  We are in that season of short and cold days.  The cold I can work with as long as it's clear.

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by joe_meadmaker on Jan 25th, 2024 at 8:45pm
@TOMBELAINE - Did it take long for you to get used to a finger loop release?  I did some experimenting with it, but unfortunately I couldn't get it to work well at all.  I had consistently very late releases during my attempts.  Overhand throws were hitting the ground only a few meters in front of me.  And side arm throws were going way to the left.  It basically felt like using a staff sling that never released early enough.

I'm assuming it's something I'm doing wrong, but I tried many different hand positions.  I tried the index finger curled and holding the release loop.  I tried it with the finger straight.  I tried with the wrist forward and back.  The hand and finger position seemed to make very little difference.  There are only two ways I was able to get the sling to release at a reasonable point.  One was to throw very slowly, so the pouch and projectile could catch up to the throwing hand.  And the other was to completely stop my hand mid-throw.  Neither of these methods are effective because all power is lost.

My question was posed to Tombelaine, but anyone please feel free to chime in.  Has anyone used a release loop with good results?  The only other thought I had was to try a shorter sling, which I haven't done yet.  The logic behind that is a shorter sling will release earlier when using a staff sling.  For my tests I used the same sling that I did in the video that's linked in this thread.  The length is about 29 inches (≈74 cm).

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by TOMBELAINE on Jan 26th, 2024 at 5:23am

joe_meadmaker wrote on Jul 11th, 2023 at 12:39pm:
The sling I used was quite long and thin, so not good for building speed in a very short amount of time.


joe_meadmaker wrote on Jan 25th, 2024 at 8:45pm:
The only other thought I had was to try a shorter sling, which I haven't done yet.  The logic behind that is a shorter sling will release earlier when using a staff sling. 

You already have the answer. For info, the sling I used was about 40 cm (16 inch).

Title: Re: Greek style : Lecuyer
Post by joe_meadmaker on Jan 26th, 2024 at 10:14pm

TOMBELAINE wrote on Jan 26th, 2024 at 5:23am:
You already have the answer. For info, the sling I used was about 40 cm (16 inch).

:thumb:

I will adjust and try again.

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