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General >> Project Goliath - The History of The Sling >> Need help for different sizes.
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Message started by TOMBELAINE on Jan 10th, 2023 at 10:48am

Title: Need help for different sizes.
Post by TOMBELAINE on Jan 10th, 2023 at 10:48am
Hello,
I need help for different sizes in a hand.
After discussions I had about chalk slingstones with archeologists, I think it's possible that the size of several slingstones are measured with the hands. This is the hypothesis I want to study.
So I need your help to establish "an average hand".
All responses are welcome and a big thank you to all.
img268_001.jpg (127 KB | 3 )
img269_001.jpg (149 KB | 3 )

Title: Re: Need help for different sizes.
Post by Teg on Jan 10th, 2023 at 12:25pm
Most of the info you are looking for is likely already available online:

https://www.healthline.com/health/average-hand-size#hand-size-vs-height
(The primary sources are linked in the article)

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/288518032_Kids_and_gender_Differences_in_exposure_and_how_anthropometric_differences_could_be_incorporated_computer_input_device_design

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5535485/

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2090536X16300697

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1258/rsmmsl.49.2.123



Note that people in ancient times might have been younger on average and also likely less obese than we are nowadays. That might affect the measurements somewhat.

How to look for more information:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
https://scholar.google.com

There are other platforms, but they are mostly locked behind paywalls. Your local university library may have access to a couple.
https://www.scopus.com
https://clarivate.com/webofsciencegroup/solutions/web-of-science/ (Web of Science)


Title: Re: Need help for different sizes.
Post by StaffSlinger on Jan 10th, 2023 at 1:25pm
I agree with Teg -- modern people and their hands are much larger than than our predecessors.  You would do well to explore the studies of ancient humans -- Egyptians, Scythians, Greeks & Romans, Europeans etc.  Forensic anthropologists (or whatever they're called) will certainly have studied and recorded findings about body size, including hands.  A simple look at sword hilts from 1000 or more years ago tells you that hands were smaller 'back in the day'.

Title: Re: Need help for different sizes.
Post by TOMBELAINE on Jan 11th, 2023 at 2:45am
Yes, I agree with you.
But my height is 1 m 68. For me, the lenght D is 5,3 cm and E is 2,5 cm.
If my height is 1 m 60, D would be 5,0 cm and E would be 2.4 cm.
If my height is 1 m 50, D would be 4,7 cm and E would be 2,2 cm.
Yes, some differences exist.
But ...
For example, 15 Hawaian slingstones in museum of Quimper. This is the museum I want to visit. 7 have a width of 2,4 cm. My question is : is it a coincidence ?
img270.jpg (212 KB | 6 )

Title: Re: Need help for different sizes.
Post by TOMBELAINE on Jan 12th, 2023 at 3:00am
Always with my example, the median lenght is 5,4 cm. Second coincidence !
Yes, I'm not Hawaian and I didn't live in the XIXth century but I see two coherent coincidences.
My goal isn't to prove anything but to convince the archeologists that this hypothesis is interesting. Archeologists are scientist ; this is why an "average hand" is useful.
My idea may be stupid but if no one tries, we'll never know.

Title: Re: Need help for different sizes.
Post by Blindsquirrel on Jan 12th, 2023 at 5:42am
Look into the prolate spheriod shape, all of the projectiles in the above picture seem to follow that rule: the width is half of the length. Here is a link to an archeological video on “the sling stone of Guam and the Mariana islands”, I found this very interesting.
https://youtu.be/P-zg86E2V4w
I have my own opinions on the way these projectiles where made and why there were so many found in and around the waterway, but that is for  another day. There definitely seems to b a relationship between length and width of the projectile, which helps increases the projectiles flight stability. So far as to weight I think that was a personal preference or was based on the throwers strength? But what do I know?

Title: Re: Need help for different sizes.
Post by TOMBELAINE on Jan 13th, 2023 at 2:49am
Hi, Blondsquirrel.
Thanks for the share. Useful and interesting.

In my photo, the 1st number is the lenght, the 2nd number is the width and the 3d number is the ratio width/lenght. The longer the lenght, the lower the ratio. It's normal because the width is almost fixed, about 2.4 cm.
My hypothesis :
1) Cut the diameter (1 phalanx on the index finger) in a pebble.
2) Cast off each end to obtain a projectile of about 3 fingers.
It's simple, fast and efficient to have identical slingstones. In addition, this method is easy to transmit to young slinger.
The photo attached to this post summarizes my idea.

002_004.JPG (45 KB | 2 )

Title: Re: Need help for different sizes.
Post by Blindsquirrel on Jan 13th, 2023 at 7:18am
And the final test is to take what u made and toss it up and down into the air spinning it like it would in flight and c if it has a stable spin or wants to wobble. This is how I came up with the right length/width for a certain weigh projectile that I wanted. And so far for me projectiles that r between 50grams and 100grams seem to work the best. If heavier I notice it is harder to keep them on the target line and the same for lighter than 50. Based upon the sizes of glandes pictured up above where the weights of them somewhere around 75-85 grams?

Title: Re: Need help for different sizes.
Post by TOMBELAINE on Jan 16th, 2023 at 11:38am
In 1888, Vigors remarked that the slingstones used in New Caledonia had a diameter of exactly 2,5 cm (Kubikova, 2015).
The length of the middle phalanx of my index finger is 2,5 cm.
I just contacted the museum and I hope the visit will be possible.
Allow me to insist but the length of the middle phalanx of the index finger of many of you would be of great statistical help.
Thanks to all.

Title: Re: Need help for different sizes.
Post by TOMBELAINE on Jan 16th, 2023 at 11:43am

Blindsquirrel wrote on Jan 13th, 2023 at 7:18am:
Based upon the sizes of glandes pictured up above where the weights of them somewhere around 75-85 grams?


Between 40 and 50 grammes.

Title: Re: Need help for different sizes.
Post by Blindsquirrel on Jan 16th, 2023 at 7:33pm
That is very interesting, that seem to line up with the weights I’m getting from dirt clay ammo I’m playing around with for similar shape and size.

Title: Re: Need help for different sizes.
Post by joe_meadmaker on Feb 1st, 2023 at 3:49pm
@TOMBELAINE - Do you still want hand measurements?  Sorry, I meant to post mine but forgot.  I'll definitely do it if this is still something you want to gather.

Title: Re: Need help for different sizes.
Post by TOMBELAINE on Feb 2nd, 2023 at 2:41am
Yes, Joe Meadmaker.
I'm waiting for an answer from the museum, but it's closed in the winter.
The size of the human has varied according to the times. For example, I see on a French website that the size of a Neanderthal man was 1.60 meter. I measure 1.68 m.
https://www.hominides.com/dossiers/neandertal-et-sapiens-les-differences/
Therefore, some statistical data would be very useful to me to better understand my subject.
Thanks  :)

Title: Re: Need help for different sizes.
Post by joe_meadmaker on Feb 3rd, 2023 at 7:40pm
Here are my hand measurements.  The F measurement is hard to see in the picture because the line disappears between two fingers.  I measured from the first knuckle of the middle finger to the point where the finger meets the palm.  If that's not what you want, just let me know and I'll measure it again.

All measurements are in mm.

Left:
A - 78
B - 34
C - 87
D - 53
E - 26
F - 52

Right:
A - 80
B - 35
C - 89
D - 56
E - 28
F - 55

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