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Message started by Rat Man on Jan 27th, 2022 at 3:39pm

Title: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Rat Man on Jan 27th, 2022 at 3:39pm
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/china-backs-russia-in-strongest-display-yet-of-support-over-ukraine/ar-AATcW0P?ocid=uxbndlbing
:o :( :-/ :-/

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by J on Jan 27th, 2022 at 6:05pm
I think we will see a cyber fallout possibly following this conflict. The internet will go down in Europe I think, possibly other electronics and services, they will say Russia is behind it. Could be. Could be more behind it. It would happen simultanously or after an invasion of Ukraine I;d imagine.

The World Economic Forum boss has warned of this possibility of a cyberpandemic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DKRvS-C04o

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Morphy on Jan 28th, 2022 at 10:29am
Im very interested as well. I had this conversation with another member a few days ago. If NATO does decide to make a stronger response than usual that puts the target on the US. Since historically speaking as it stands we "are" NATO.  China and Russia working together is bad for us. Hopefully this ends up being nothing.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by J on Jan 28th, 2022 at 2:40pm
Russian Navy is going to do exercises a few hundred km of Irish coast where the undersea telecommunication cables are

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2022/01/russian-navy-live-firing-off-irish-coast-during-tensions/
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/uk-news/fears-russian-warships-could-moved-22852356

Here's an article from 2018 on this threat,
https://www.lawfareblog.com/evaluating-russian-threat-undersea-cables

All very interesting...

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Rat Man on Jan 28th, 2022 at 3:07pm
    There are several of us here who lived through the Cuban Missile Crisis and remember it well.  It's like here we go again.  The last time we found a compromise.  Hopefully we will again.  No one wins WWIII.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by perpetualstudent on Jan 28th, 2022 at 8:12pm
I can't see anybody launching nukes over this. The most anyone is threatening is "sanctions" which will drive China and Russia closer (which is bad for us, so the west doesn't even want to do that). It's been fascinating watching the US say "we'll shut down the pipeline" and the much more restrained statement from Germany to whom the pipeline runs. Ukraine is in a bad way. There are no good options for the west even if we played perfectly (hint: we ain't gonna). But this isn't the cuban missile crisis. It's far closer to when we carved up Poland.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Jan 29th, 2022 at 12:03am

Rat Man wrote on Jan 28th, 2022 at 3:07pm:
No one wins WWIII.


China wins.

https://thepoliticalinsider.com/tucker-carlson-demands-answers-who-benefits-from-war-against-russia/

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Rat Man on Jan 29th, 2022 at 1:56pm
   If all out war was to break out between Russia and its allies and the West initially about 3800 nukes would be detonated in the atmosphere within a few hours.  Though at first China would fare better than the U.S. or Russia, assuming of course that they don't get involved, eventually they would be just as screwed as everyone else. Their air, food, and water would be totally contaminated.  WWIII would be the next great extinction event. 

https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_states_with_nuclear_weapons#Statistics

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by J on Jan 29th, 2022 at 3:34pm
Just keep an eye on this event, could be big or nothing at all we will see
5r6327a1nke81.png (3472 KB | 27 )

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by J on Jan 29th, 2022 at 3:47pm
Alright so a few hours ago the Russians said as a gesture of good will they will relocate the exercises outside the economic zone as a favour for the fishermen and to combat suspicions of cable cutting  so probably unlikely there will happen anything with these cables

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by perpetualstudent on Jan 30th, 2022 at 11:07am
probably already planted and camouflaged their charges  :P

I kid I kid. Though of course I don't preclude the possibility. An interesting question to "well it would be extinction event" is do we commit suicide as a species over Ukraine? And since none of us have any power over that, have I spent my life especially the last couple of years in a good way?

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Curious Aardvark on Jan 31st, 2022 at 2:06pm
nuclear war is unlikely.
Nobody wins, everybody dies and the emf takes down the terrestrial internet, while the non-existent military satellites take out all the civilian communiction and gps satellites,  and those who never learned how to use  a library, are suddenly clueless and starve to death before the rest of us, who die in the nuclear winter.

Even the american government have to be able to understand that nuclear is only ever going to be an extinction level event.
Although I'd have to say I'm only about 60% sure of that. 


But russia re-invading it's former satellite countries, is quite likely and there's absolutely bugger all anyone could do about it, without going nuclear and the everyone dies.

So short of a land based war - and only china and the usa have a large enough standing army to bother russia in any significant way.

And china backs russia and america will keep well away from any conflict in europe.

So, yeah at some point - unless someone takes out putin - russian tanks are going to roll over somebody's borders.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Rat Man on Feb 7th, 2022 at 8:49am
   I hope you're right and believe that you are.  But twice we've been on the brink of nuclear war and we are very lucky it didn't happen.
    The first was of course the Cuban Missile Crisis.
    The second was in Korea in 1976.  It happened on the DMZ at a place called Panmunjom or The Peace Village. It's also called the Joint Security Area.  This little known incident  was just as or even more dangerous than the Cuban Missile Crisis.  I was just a few miles away when this went down.  A lot of what I know might still be classified so I can't say much but trust me, we were closer to nuclear war than most people want to know. 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-49394758

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Hirtius on Feb 7th, 2022 at 7:59pm
I’m surprised I haven’t heard more about Russia’s invasion of Georgia in all of this. They did so a few months after Georgia was trying to commit to NATO. The Russians got what they wanted.

I really think NATO should call Russia’s bluff and quickly add Ukraine to NATO, as well as helping Ukraine take back occupied territories. Putin should be shown that throwing a hissyfit isn’t the way to get things done.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Rat Man on Feb 8th, 2022 at 6:17am
    When the Soviet Union invaded Hungary in 1956 I was just a toddler.  My memories of that are very vague. In 1968 I was into my short wave radio.  The world was a much bigger place then and listening to broadcasts from all over the planet was a big deal to me.  One of the stations I regularly listened to was Radio Prague.  I had a front row seat for the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia.  The people resisted as best they could by barricading streets with trucks and busses and such but of course they were no match for the Soviet military machine.  The West stood by and did nothing because short of nuclear retaliation there was nothing we could do.  I listened as Radio Prague went off the air.  A few weeks later it was back but singing a completely different tune, of course.  It was very sad and depressing.
    I was born in 1954 so for the first half of my existence the Cold War was a way life.  When the Iron Curtain came down in 1989 I hoped we were done with this crap forever or at least for the rest of my life.  This tumoil is all too familiar. 
    

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Curious Aardvark on Feb 8th, 2022 at 7:48am
It does beg the question why doesn;t someone take out putin ?

Without him, russia would become a fairly normal country.

But I suppose if one head of state gets taken out, then it becomes fair game on them all.

And none of them want to be dodging assasins.

Plus it;s harder than you think lol

I believe the cia had 57 (or thereabouts ) unsuccesful attempts to take out fidel castro.
Including poisoined cigars.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by J on Feb 8th, 2022 at 11:54am
Russia is actually quite normal nowadays, a nice place to be. Belarussia is even nicer, very traditional, good morals and values, nice people and country side. Probably my favorite country in Europe, Belarussia. No qr code crap. I may move there one day. Then again I am a traditionalist and against the so called 'progressive' movement, which to me is anti christ. I don't like the communist past sure, but after a few decades and after Stalin the USSR countries somewhat returned to tradition. But during the civil war in the 1910s there , I would have backed the White movement and supported the Russian Monarchy against the reds.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by perpetualstudent on Feb 8th, 2022 at 11:56am
My favorite was the exploding clam shell.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Rat Man on Feb 9th, 2022 at 12:17am

AncientCraftwork wrote on Feb 8th, 2022 at 11:54am:
Russia is actually quite normal nowadays, a nice place to be. Belarussia is even nicer, very traditional, good morals and values, nice people and country side. Probably my favorite country in Europe, Belarussia. No qr code crap. I may move there one day. Then again I am a traditionalist and against the so called 'progressive' movement, which to me is anti christ. I don't like the communist past sure, but after a few decades and after Stalin the USSR countries somewhat returned to tradition. But during the civil war in the 1910s there , I would have backed the White movement and supported the Russian Monarchy against the reds.


   I'm sure that Belarus is a lovey country.  But it boggles my mind that someone who hates to be told what to do to the point that he considers a simple vaccination a violation of his personal rights would want to live under one of the most repressive dictatorships in the world.  No offense intended but it makes absolutely no sense to me.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Hirtius on Feb 9th, 2022 at 2:22am

AncientCraftwork wrote on Feb 8th, 2022 at 11:54am:
Russia is actually quite normal nowadays, a nice place to be. Belarussia is even nicer, very traditional, good morals and values, nice people and country side. Probably my favorite country in Europe, Belarussia. No qr code crap. I may move there one day. Then again I am a traditionalist and against the so called 'progressive' movement, which to me is anti christ. I don't like the communist past sure, but after a few decades and after Stalin the USSR countries somewhat returned to tradition. But during the civil war in the 1910s there , I would have backed the White movement and supported the Russian Monarchy against the reds.


You are quite the traditionalist, you’re still expressing sentiment for a war over 100 years ago between two awful governments. I guess Belarus is continuing the tradition of being a repressive authoritarian nightmare with a relatively low standard of living. But to each their own.

And I don’t know what you mean by “progressive movement” (and I don’t really need to know because I’m pretty sure that would devolve into a political argument), but progressive is more of an attitude instead of a movement. Same thing with being traditional. And the two aren’t mutually exclusive, a person who thinks of themselves as progressive might have a strong sense of tradition and a person who describes themselves as traditional might see the need for progress. But really, what even are progress and tradition anyways? What one person calls progress, another might call tradition.

I encounter things that go against both of my progressive and traditional attitudes all of the time, but I couldn’t imagine something terrible enough to make me move to Belarus.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Curious Aardvark on Feb 9th, 2022 at 8:34am
No idea about Belarus, have any of you apart from j been there ?

If he's been there then his knowledge is much greater than any of ours.

To put this in perspective the standard British view of the United States, is of a incredibly violent place, peopled by poorly educated gun obsessed maniacs, where you are extremely likely to get shot just walking down the street.

Now I have been to America a number of times, and I haven't been shot once, not even a little bit (although I will definitely avoid certain areas of Texas in the future)

I like aneticaand most of the Americans I've met,
My view of the average American is vastly out of kilter with the normal British attitude.

So, as they say, before passing judgement on somewhere you have not been - go there.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by perpetualstudent on Feb 9th, 2022 at 8:36am
I found a nordic dude who married a russian and lives in rural russia on youtube, I found him when I was researching foot wraps but he also taught me a new way to build a campfire. While I have no desire to live in Russia I imagine I'd rather live in his position than go back to NYC, especially given the current situation.

Things tend to be complex. And we tend to cast our country in the best light and others in the worst.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Hirtius on Feb 9th, 2022 at 9:37pm
CA, that’s a good point, but not exactly fair. I’m not judging the Belarusians. I’m judging their government. I sympathize with the Belarusians who tried to protest against a sham election. I may have exaggerated its issues for effect, but that doesn’t mean that it’s terribly misunderstood. I don’t have to go there to know that it’s not very free, and that’s a big no no for me and for most people. To me, moving to a place like that is incomprehensible. But to each their own, the “progressive movement” must be pretty frightening.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by perpetualstudent on Feb 10th, 2022 at 10:52am
To a certain extent you're right, the living conditions of chinese factory workers are fairly well documented for instance. But CA is more correct, we ought be very careful when we speak of countries and peoples that are not us and with whom we have limited contact.

I imagine it is as scary to him as "traditional values" are to you. Or perhaps we all ought refrain from dismissal and scare quotes.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Hirtius on Feb 10th, 2022 at 4:00pm
“Traditional values” aren’t scary at all, I myself have many of them. Really, it’s a goofy term that can mean anything. I don’t look at the world in those terms.

I did say CA is right, I was harsh. But there are some things that go beyond the pale for what is seen as acceptable in a country. Autocracy is one of those things. I can’t imagine most of us keep an open mind about the Chinese government. But I’ve never been there and most people haven’t. But we have our opinions about it. Should we refrain from judgement? I don’t think so. I guess this comparison is recently relevant because there are a few American born athletes who compete for China in the Olympics. Although there is a notable exception, usually it requires only being able to have Chinese citizenship. They probably have their own reasons, but I can’t wrap my head around it. What do you have to give up and what do you have to overlook to do that?

I live in a place that doesn’t match my personal or political views, but to me that’s ok. There’s always hope that things can change, and I can live as I want. I can’t imagine limiting myself like that, even if it did happen to line up with my beliefs. I know I should refrain from dismissal, but some things are just too perplexing. I guess I’m not even capable of understanding. It ultimately doesn’t matter, J shouldn’t and probably won’t let me dissuade them from their dreams.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Rat Man on Feb 11th, 2022 at 8:11am
     I have been and lived in countries where civil rights are a joke.  I seriously doubt anyone here would enjoy such places. 

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by J on Feb 13th, 2022 at 4:42pm
Biden: "I had been calling Putin the whole day! He is not answering my calls."
Biden's assistant: "Mr. President, you were using the TV remote control."

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Curious Aardvark on Feb 14th, 2022 at 6:42am
I know where you're coming from with regards to govenrments.

Classic example.
I have been to china, i went around 25 years ago, when a tourist group was still accompanied by a member of the tourist police and we had to use special tourist currency.

But even then, when i was walking across tianmin square and envisaging the tanks. You could have been excused for thinking you were in the central square of ANY capital city anywhere in the world.

We all know that china's government is one of the most totalitarian around. But That is NOT what it's like living there are walking around.

In most respects china is the most western and commercial country in the world.

Governments do not always make the country, is my point.

And also that only be going somewhere and interacting with the locals, can you ever reallly know what somewhere is like to live in.

Also television does not help - news programs only show the worst things as up beat or normal things are not considered newsworthy.

And with america - well most of the world gets it's opinions from film and television - very few of which ever reflect any kind of reality.
Or if they do they reflect only the worst aspects of soceity.

So yeah we all know beklearus is run by a dictator. But unless you've actually been there, you can't know what it's like to live there.

I'm pretty sure that mkost of the world thinks that London is typical of england.

Oh god no !
London is a shithole, it's 1 square mile of history surrounded by a massive housing estate, and it's dirty, grubby and the people are generaly rude and unwelcoming.

I think of london as a seperate city state, and not any part of the reality of the rest of the country.

But the outside world has no way of knowing that based on the films and tv that are out there in the wider world.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Hirtius on Feb 14th, 2022 at 3:13pm
You’re right, governments do not always make the country. But they often play a very big part. You use the example of China, and the Chinese government touches a lot of parts of life. Going back to what J was saying about Belarus, some of the reasons it might be “traditional” could be legal. Even if the government isn’t directly doing anything, the way it works can shape the values and political discourse. Look at Americans, the way we look at things is still shaped by the arguments and decisions from several hundred years ago.

While you’re right about things in the news and on tv shaping our perceptions, Belarus really not coming to my attention before their protests, you might be a bit cynical about what people understand. I’ve never thought of the UK as as all like London. When I’ve talked to people in Europe, while there might be some stereotypes about America, usually people understand that the world is often a little nuanced. Going back to China, I there’s a lot of stuff I’d like to see there, and probably a lot of cool people. But there’s still something very wrong there. Unfortunately, as many Olympic athletes are finding out, it’s kind of hard to ignore.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Rat Man on Feb 15th, 2022 at 8:37am
     Those who know history will recognize that Putin is doing exactly what Hitler did prior to WWII.

Russia's parliament asks Putin to recognize breakaway regions in Ukraine
Russia's parliament voted for a law on Tuesday that calls on President Vladimir Putin to recognize two Russian-controlled breakaway regions in eastern Ukraine as independent.

The measure is a formal appeal to Putin to recognize the self-declared Donetsk and Luhansk people's republics, in an area of southeastern Ukraine known as the Donbas, where Russian-backed separatists forces have been battling the Ukrainian army since 2014.
Such recognition would open a path for Russia to formally annex the two regions as it did the Crimean Peninsula almost eight years ago. It's now up to Putin to decide whether.....

     I think we all know which way Putin will decide.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Curious Aardvark on Feb 16th, 2022 at 12:04pm
I'm surprised a faction inside russia doesn;t take him out. He's really not good for the country.
Or the world in general.

The difference is that hitler had the backing of the german populace. Putin no longer has the backing of the average russian.

The ones who still think stalin was a good egg, are probably on putins side.
But the vast majority - nope.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by perpetualstudent on Feb 17th, 2022 at 10:40am
I've mentioned before that Putin is entirely understandable, just cast as an 18th century european politician.

I think many got used to the idea that "we're all on the same side, give a little to get a little" and any nation that is self-interested (which used to be the norm) gets ire. The problem is the Europeans torched that ideal of "hey we'll all get along" with their fiasco of diplomatic relations with Turkey. Russia doesn't buy for one sec that Europe will give them a fair shake this time, so why shouldn't they play power politics? Why shouldn't they play hardball?

It's that subtle shift in the baseline game, are we cooperating or competing? If you're playing nicely and another player is use gamebreaking strategies, that feels like betrayal. But which is the game? I tend to hold that looking at it cooperatively is the exception and the normative way is competitive. Looked at that way, Putin isn't bad for Russia, just everyone Russia is playing against.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by J on Feb 18th, 2022 at 12:36pm
If you want the Russian perspective; the West is arming the illegitimate - CIA / Mossad funded  - post 2014 government of Ukraine, who wants to invade Donbas and Crimea. That is why Russia is placing troops at the border, to show they are ready to defend these regions in case Kiev decides to go ahead with attacking the seceded regions. (Who seceded because they didn't want to have anything to do with the post 2014 CIA//mossad government of Ukraine )

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Hirtius on Feb 18th, 2022 at 6:47pm
I wonder if Russians actually believe it or not.

Gotta love how Mossad is in on it. No conspiracy is complete without Jews.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by perpetualstudent on Feb 18th, 2022 at 7:26pm
the inclusion of the papacy in conspiracies is the amusing one to me.

In their defense though, the idea that the entirety of the world's intelligence agencies just watched with detached disinterest during governmental upheaval in Ukraine stretches credulity.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Hirtius on Feb 18th, 2022 at 7:42pm
They aren’t watching with disinterest, they’re sounding the alarm every time Russia does something. But any active involvement conspiracy *really* doesn’t make sense in the current political attitudes. The US, and probably the rest of NATO, has a bit of an isolationist attitude. Weirdly enough, that’s the one thing popular among Americans across the political spectrum.

I’ll be honest, I wish there was a CIA conspiracy. At least someone would be doing something. Right now it’s just intelligence, told to a Ukraine that is halfway in denial for some reason. My personal guess is that if the Russians invade, which at the moment is thought to be imminent, I don’t think the Ukrainians will put up a great resistance. If you’re still in denial when an invasion that could be within days, it probably won’t go well.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Morphy on Feb 19th, 2022 at 10:08am
I dont know about mossad but its really not difficult to believe the US government would lie to get us or others into a war. Seeing as they have done it before.  ::)

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Hirtius on Feb 19th, 2022 at 12:31pm
That’s fair, except the aggressor in this case is Russia. I don’t think they need help from the CIA to start a war, they’ve also done it. This isn’t even the first time with Ukraine.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by perpetualstudent on Feb 19th, 2022 at 5:10pm
The question isn't alphabet soup agencies acting now, when we're beating the drums of war in the west, but when Ukraine changed gov before. And western media was far less interested then. The various agencies, I imagine, were far from disinterested observers.

To be clear: I'm not taking Russia's side or endorsing them. But if you don't acknowledge the nuggets of truth in the propaganda, you're susceptible to it.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Hirtius on Feb 19th, 2022 at 5:56pm
I’ve never heard anything regarding foreign intelligences acting during the Euromaiden protests and overthrow. At least as far as I’m aware, that the people popularly rose up to oust an unpopular president who would position Ukraine as more dependent on Russia. I feel like some vague western conspiracy is an excuse to force Ukrainians back into the Russian sphere of influence. I don’t even see any evidence for the grain of truth you are talking about, and the true intentions of Russia seem to be very blatant.

Edit: I originally had said the president was questionably elected, but it turns out his election was seen as fair. Such allegations were from an earlier election. That makes the overthrow a bit more complicated. However, as of now I’m not finding anything suggesting that the US provided anything more than some intelligence support. Meanwhile, I think the Russians provided a bunch of material support to the president and then to the rebels.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by perpetualstudent on Feb 19th, 2022 at 6:15pm
Certainly I agree that Russian intentions are blatant. They want to expand Russian power and further Russian interests. In this case, Ukraine gets to pay the price. Because none of our countries are willing to pay the price.

I am not expert by any means, and I haven't studied it deeply, but this I am sure of: It was messy. And it would be no surprise to find out that more than one agency was putting a thumb on the scales. Eastern and Western both.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Hirtius on Feb 19th, 2022 at 6:31pm
There’s a difference between a light thumbprint and pushing down heavily on the scales, which Russia was doing. They then attempted to knock over the scales and is now going at it with a hammer. Ok, maybe a bit of a stupid analogy, but the point is that the two aren’t the same.

But let’s just say that the conspiracy is true and the Americans pulled a lot more strings than anyone ever imagined. Is Russia in the right? Absolutely not. Euromaiden had broad popular support. Getting invaded… doesn’t.

The what about-isms don’t even make sense, but even if they did Russia wouldn’t be justified at all.


I guess I have a basic question. If Russia isn’t planning bad stuff, why are they so afraid of more countries joining NATO?

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by perpetualstudent on Feb 19th, 2022 at 8:12pm
There's a bleak view of the world that says "the strong do what they will and the weak suffer what they must". Ukraine was weak because of government was in flux, Russia took Crimea (again). We in the west got on our high horses and screeched about how terrible it was for a couple of years. Didn't matter. Now we admit that Crimea has been "annexed". We still say the election they held wasn't legitimate, but it doesn't matter. Russia wasn't Right/Just to take it but no one was willing to pay the price to stop it.

I try to be detached and that means I tend not to get het up about who is "in the right". I just try to predict how the game will unfold. It wasn't just when the world carved up Poland but it didn't matter. It was done. The Ukranians are very similar position right now. And it being Eastern Europe the ethnicities and distrust and corruption make it more muddled which makes it easy for powers to not do anything. Biden does not have the confidence of the US and as a whole we're very war weary. Germany (if you watch the words) won't even swear off Russian energy even if Russia acts.  Ultimately, I don't see any players willing to pay. And even if they were, none of us look lightly at the prospect of trying dig out entrenched Russians.

What has frustrated me is that anyone should have been able to predict all that. And if that's the case, you don't  advertise your weakness. All of this hooplah around it that won't change the outcome just says how weak you are.

So I feel for the Ukranians, I do. It's just that feelings don't matter.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Hirtius on Feb 19th, 2022 at 9:40pm
And it’s a shame no one has done anything. The west is weak. I’m harsh on Biden as well as he pretty much gave a green light, but across the board Americans of all political beliefs are now weak to any kinds of foreign action. It’s pathetic.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Curious Aardvark on Feb 22nd, 2022 at 7:40am
exactly what do you think anyone could do ?

The only countries with standing armies big enough to bother russia are: china, usa and north korea

None of them are either bothered or in a position to do anything about it.

At the end of the day there is very little to stop putin 'annexing' the rest of europe.

There's an old 2000ad comic strip: invasion
All about the 'volgan' (read: sovier union) invasion of europe and the uk.

It's looking more and more like reality every day.

It took america 2 years to decide to enter the second world war.

It'd take a whole helluva lot longer for ANY modern american administration to send troops to europe again.

Our civilisation has been on the downswing for a long time.
Honestly, who knows where this could lead.


Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Hirtius on Feb 22nd, 2022 at 11:23am
You even allude to it. It’s not about could, it’s about would. It’s a matter of will. Russia might be tough, but it’s a chump compared to NATO.

North Korea doesn’t have the military to stand up to Russia. Without foreign intervention, a war between them in the South would see them destroyed. Smaller standing army, much greater resources and reserves.

But anyways, I don’t think Russia would be able to take over Europe like the fears of old. The issue I feel like is a trend over values, and what the world will look like. No one wants to acknowledge it, but we’re sort of already in another, less intense, Cold War between democracy and autocracy. It’s embarrassing to realize that Democratic countries are more powerful but autocracy is winning and gaining ground. You can argue over it being foolish to invade other countries and force our values on them, but we won’t even help defend countries that want to stay democratic like Ukraine or Myanmar.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Morphy on Feb 22nd, 2022 at 2:12pm

Curious Aardvark wrote on Feb 22nd, 2022 at 7:40am:
exactly what do you think anyone could do ?

The only countries with standing armies big enough to bother russia are: china, usa and north korea

None of them are either bothered or in a position to do anything about it.

At the end of the day there is very little to stop putin 'annexing' the rest of europe.

There's an old 2000ad comic strip: invasion
All about the 'volgan' (read: sovier union) invasion of europe and the uk.

It's looking more and more like reality every day.

It took america 2 years to decide to enter the second world war.

It'd take a whole helluva lot longer for ANY modern american administration to send troops to europe again.

Our civilisation has been on the downswing for a long time.
Honestly, who knows where this could lead.


I agree with this sentiment for the most part except I think if Russia were to do something it would be in accordance with China and the first major target would be the US.

NATO *is* the US for all intents and purposes. A surprise attack against the US (if Russia deemed the reward great enough for the risk) would mean NATO would have a very hard time fighting what would then be the worlds two superpowers working in tandem. A European NATO might fight back but it would be an uphill battle.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Hirtius on Feb 22nd, 2022 at 3:27pm
I wouldn’t call NATO the US. The US might be a big part far and away, but together the rest of NATO is still quite powerful. Again, it’s a matter of will. Russia is not as powerful as it pretends to be, and China is pursuing a less externally provocative path in order to preserve their government. I wouldn’t bet on a WW3 with the US getting attacked anytime soon.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by perpetualstudent on Feb 22nd, 2022 at 3:35pm
I don't know about "autocracy" vs "democracy". I instinctively dislike that categorization but the more I think about it the more I say "well I see what you're getting at"

As the "people" act more like a mob restraints and manipulations become more understandable and maybe that inevitably leads to the conflict we're observing and being drawn into.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Morphy on Feb 22nd, 2022 at 3:52pm

Hirtius wrote on Feb 22nd, 2022 at 3:27pm:
I wouldn’t bet on a WW3 with the US getting attacked anytime soon.


Define "soon".

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by JudoP on Feb 22nd, 2022 at 4:58pm
Russia absolutely is an underdog vs NATO, even the European NATO. I mean, the UK alone has pretty much the same military spend as Russia. Even then I doubt that any US administration would stand by as western europe enters war with Russia.

More pertinent is all of these countries have access to nuclear weapons, along with some other european states. So direct war seems unlikely to me. Instead antagonism will probably fall more into the cyber and information warfare realm, with the occasional less risky proxy war. The more you see Putin talk the more it seems obvious that everything he says and does is designed to try destabalise and divide up the western powers. This is why he is afraid of NATO and didn't want Ukraine to join it.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Gaius Marcellus Nerva on Feb 22nd, 2022 at 5:08pm
If there was a direct war I don't think any nuclear weapons would be used, too risky.

The US and Russia wounldn't have to use nuclear weapons anyway they both have enough chemical weapons to kill the entire earths population several times...

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Morphy on Feb 22nd, 2022 at 6:15pm
Lets not assume too much.

One thing that is as certain as the sun rising is every single time a situation like this arises people say it wont/cant happen because (insert irrefutable reason here). I understand the mindset for why this happens and of course not every border dispute turns into a war. But Im not comfotable claiming this wont turn into one.

With inflation rising here in America I see many of the usual signs that happen preceding a war. But Im content to sit and wait. Im not claiming tomorrow or next year, timelines are tricky like that, but its coming and it will probably involve conflict with Russia and China. That's my belief anyways. Ill go ahead and bookmark this thread so I can refer back to it if/when it happens.  ;)


Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by J on Feb 23rd, 2022 at 4:59am
An interesting clip
https://twitter.com/KyleKashuv/status/1496262915367870465?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1496262915367870465%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.godlikeproductions.com%2Fforum1%2Fmessage5054917%2Fpg3

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Hirtius on Feb 23rd, 2022 at 11:59am

AncientCraftwork wrote on Feb 23rd, 2022 at 4:59am:
An interesting clip
https://twitter.com/KyleKashuv/status/1496262915367870465?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1496262915367870465|twgr^|twcon^s1_&ref_url=http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message5054917/pg3


You know, I think I see. This video of a speech without context and interspersed with footage of unrest and police crackdowns and ominous music that implies conspiracy theories about a secret plot to take over the world involving people the audience has already been told not to like; it all makes sense. How did I not see it?

Now I understand moving to Belarus, where governments being evil and police crackdown on dissent wouldn’t happen.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Morphy on Feb 24th, 2022 at 1:42pm
Well it appears Putin is not dissuaded by NATO.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by perpetualstudent on Feb 24th, 2022 at 2:11pm
he's not fighting NATO and NATO didn't promise to help. Looks like he's taking everything east of the river. The widespread attacks I imagine were mainly aimed at knocking out aircraft and anti-air.

I wonder if in retaliation the diminished Ukraine will be given NATO membership.  Sounds like something that will make no one happy but might re-balance things.



Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Hirtius on Feb 24th, 2022 at 2:33pm
NATO would’ve already added Ukraine if they would, there is a lot of opposition to them joining NATO on the basis that they need to be stable, which Russia knows. Even after this is done, I doubt life will be any easier for Ukrainians since Russia is incentivized to mess with them.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Morphy on Feb 24th, 2022 at 4:03pm

perpetualstudent wrote on Feb 24th, 2022 at 2:11pm:
he's not fighting NATO and NATO didn't promise to help. Looks like he's taking everything east of the river.


I understand that. NATO is clearly on his mind though as he went out of his way to state he would retaliate against any nation that interfered. NATO, being the most obvious threat of retaliation, did not dissuade him from his actions. He wasn't speaking of Uganda when he said that.  ;)


EDIT: "In an address to the UK, Prime Minister Boris Johnson said that "diplomatically, politically, economically – and eventually, militarily – this hideous and barbaric venture of Vladimir Putin must end in failure".

Putin for all his problems is extremely intelligent. He would have to know this is the kind of response he was going to get. Hence my statement on him not being dissuaded. That's about as bold a threat you can make without coming right out and saying "Invade Ukraine and we attack."  And Im sure he expected it. Or, let me say it this way he would have to be a complete fool not to have and he's no fool.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by perpetualstudent on Feb 24th, 2022 at 5:37pm
Ah, I apologize I was confused. ;D

NATO acting without an attack on a member state would be...doubtful. NATO operates outside of mutual defense by consensus. Any member could sink it. And turkey last I saw was still mulling over restricting Russian shipping. I would be very surprised if NATO could get consensus to commit troops to try to dig out the Russians.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Morphy on Feb 24th, 2022 at 6:28pm
I very much hope they dont try. The ball is in Russia's court right now. According to Putin anyone who tries to stop them will provoke a "response never seen in history." 

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Hirtius on Feb 24th, 2022 at 9:12pm
Don’t worry, they won’t. But they should have never let it get to this point in the first place. Personally I think NATO should do something. The only response “never seen in history” that they could possibly give is nuclear war, which would be insane to do over Ukraine. Wouldn’t end too well for Russia.

The only thing more shocking than Putin’s nerve is that people fall for his bluffing continuously. A clear line should have been drawn and he should have been humiliated if he crossed it.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by J on Feb 25th, 2022 at 4:56am
Looks like the 3rd world war may have started.
Good luck everyone. Stay safe and well.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by J on Feb 25th, 2022 at 5:43am
Radiation levels around the area of Tsjernobyl shooting through the roof, 65000 nSV/h
https://www.saveecobot.com/en/radiation-maps#12/51.4156/30.2021/gamma/comp+cams+fire

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Morphy on Feb 25th, 2022 at 8:05am

AncientCraftwork wrote on Feb 25th, 2022 at 5:43am:
Radiation levels around the area of Tsjernobyl shooting through the roof, 65000 nSV/h
https://www.saveecobot.com/en/radiation-maps#12/51.4156/30.2021/gamma/comp+cams+fire


Wait, what?

I had to look this up myself.

https://youtu.be/6LFi1B7kv2Y

According to the video I saw they are saying its tanks moving over the ground churning up dust from the Chernobyl fallout. Of course "they" are often full of it but so far the levels dont seem immediately dangerous. At least not more so than the bombs that are falling. What is your view here J? You think they intentionally used a dirty bomb or something? That would be fairly drastic.


Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Rat Man on Feb 25th, 2022 at 8:25am
   I have been ignoring the news. I'd rather not see this.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by J on Feb 25th, 2022 at 3:18pm
Radiation levels are high but not exceptionally dangerous
What's more worrysome are the very recent as in minutes ago, reports and clips of Topol-M being spotted on the move in Russia.
The lights have gone out in Kyiv as the powerplant has been hit and the streams have supposedly stopped. Seems like they intend on taking the city tonight or tomorrow but I may be wrong

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by J on Feb 25th, 2022 at 3:27pm
If they cut Russia off from SWIFT, it's pretty much a done deal
they will retaliate Europe and US with major cyberattacks that will cripple our grid.
China will likely take Taiwan in the chaos that ensues
Other countries making bold moves.
who knows.
time for prayers.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Hirtius on Feb 25th, 2022 at 6:13pm
Don’t hold your breath for the end times, the Weat doesn’t look to committed to doing much. Ukraine is only getting thoughts and prayers.

Cutting them off from SWIFT is the very least that should be done, and I can’t imagine Russia didn’t expect it. But the west isn’t even committing to that.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by czechslinger1.0 on Feb 26th, 2022 at 3:49am
We czechs know well that russians are occupiers. Ask my grandmother who lived through the 1968(she was 15 at the time) invasion of Czechoslovakia. Of course the russians fired on civilians. Actually the casualties were only civilian. The problem were never the russians themselves but their governments which were always poopy. Now this is happening again just a few hundred miles from my home.

As one czech saying goes: se sovětským svazem přišla bída na zem(with the soviet union came misery to earth)

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Morphy on Feb 26th, 2022 at 7:02am

AncientCraftwork wrote on Feb 25th, 2022 at 3:27pm:
If they cut Russia off from SWIFT, it's pretty much a done deal
they will retaliate Europe and US with major cyberattacks that will cripple our grid.
China will likely take Taiwan in the chaos that ensues
Other countries making bold moves.
who knows.
time for prayers.



Well both sides have openly said if the other does so much as sneeze in their direction they will consider it an act of war so hypothetically I agree but the real question is are they bluffing and will either side do what they are stating they would do in terms of sanctions, cutting off funds or cyber attacks.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Hirtius on Feb 26th, 2022 at 9:52am
Morphy, Russia is bluffing. They can’t fight a war with NATO or even a few NATO members. They don’t have the strength. They can try cyberattacks, but if the rest of the world messes with them financially, they won’t be able to match it. We can sneeze in their direction all day. The issue is that the Western countries are pretty damn pathetic right now. Germany and Italy seem to care about fossil fuels more than democracy for 40+ million people. The US is so non-interventionist it hurts to watch. What keeps Russia a world power despite its weakness for its size is its audacity.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by J on Feb 26th, 2022 at 10:19am
Have you forgotten their massive nuclear arsenal?

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Morphy on Feb 26th, 2022 at 2:08pm

Hirtius wrote on Feb 26th, 2022 at 9:52am:
What keeps Russia a world power despite its weakness for its size is its audacity.


Well said, if nothing else they are audacious.

I wouldnt count anyone out though. Russia may go down but they could do a lot of damage in the process. Especially partnered with China.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Hirtius on Feb 26th, 2022 at 9:54pm

AncientCraftwork wrote on Feb 26th, 2022 at 10:19am:
Have you forgotten their massive nuclear arsenal?


Nukes don’t count for much if using them means the end of the world. I doubt they would commit suicide over Ukraine.


The goal wouldn’t be to take Russia down, but to expel them from Ukraine.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Morphy on Mar 2nd, 2022 at 11:54am
Anyone taking bets on the apocalypse?

Ive said it before but if given a choice I would choose zombies but its looking like nuclear war is more likely.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Hirtius on Mar 2nd, 2022 at 10:33pm
Damn, I was really hoping for the zombies. I’d get to use a sling against them, miss, and be thankful that no one was alive to see that.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Rat Man on Mar 3rd, 2022 at 7:55am
   The best hope for this to not end in a worldwide catastrophe is as c_a suggests.  Someone has to take out Putin.  My best guess for that happening would be that a Russian army general stages a coup. Otherwise this will get much worse before it gets better.   

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by perpetualstudent on Mar 3rd, 2022 at 2:10pm
such an action would be more likely to result in a bad outcome than doing nothing.

Who would be blamed? I'm not even asking who would do it, or if they could, I'm asking how you think a nation would respond to an endorsed assassination/removal of the accepted head of government. I think there's a foolish feeling in the air that "oh the russian people will be so glad that they'll order a retreat and everyone will be happy". When in reality an underling grabbing power and reacting quickly is on the table. Stalin replaced Lenin. Even if it wasn't a western agency, the west cheering for it would make any element that tried suspect for being bought and owned by the west.

It's tempting to say "bad man goes away situation gets better" but humans don't work like that in my reading of history.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Rat Man on Mar 3rd, 2022 at 2:41pm
    Yes, I know you're probably right.  It's a long shot at best.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by J on Mar 3rd, 2022 at 3:14pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APPjVlUA-gs
I recommend listening to his talk

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Hirtius on Mar 4th, 2022 at 12:55am

AncientCraftwork wrote on Mar 3rd, 2022 at 3:14pm:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APPjVlUA-gs
I recommend listening to his talk


More than 20 minutes in and I regret taking the time to do so. No good or real cassus belli in all that time, and around the 19 minute mark starts spewing garbage about how they’re russiaphobic and neo-nazis (and we all thought lefties overused the term), and how they have no history of running a state (it sounds like to me “shouldn’t have one”) and that their state didn’t take into account their culture (?). I am ignorant of the whole Soviet assets thing, but attacking a country and wrecking it seems like a poor method of debt collection.

Is there any sort of legitimate reason later in the speech? Is it not just ambition and a callous disregard for the will of the Ukrainian people?

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by J on Mar 6th, 2022 at 4:06am
Curious coincidence?

28 July 1914 (start WW I)
28 + 7 + 19 + 14 = 68

1 September 1939 (start WW II)
1 + 9 + 19 + 39 = 68

24 February 2022 (start WW III?)
24 + 2 + 20 + 22 = 68

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Rat Man on Mar 7th, 2022 at 8:31am
   Putin's back is too the wall.  He has no choice but to follow this through or lose face.  Dictators who lose face quickly lose power. Almost always.  As long as there's Putin this won't end well. 

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by J on Mar 9th, 2022 at 3:51pm
Current gas price here is $10,5 / US gallon for petrol (I converted it)

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Rat Man on Mar 14th, 2022 at 7:59am
     We've got the war in the Ukraine in which China is about to start supplying Russia with equipment and Russia is on the verge of attacking NATO convoys, it's only a matter of time before China invades Tiawan, North Korea is testing more missiles, and this;
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/iran-says-it-won-t-tolerate-threats-emanating-from-iraqi-soil/ar-AAV20fu?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531
   Some feel that WWIII has already started. 

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Morphy on Mar 14th, 2022 at 9:48am
Yep. As I said earlier in this thread its going to get real when America gets attacked. This isnt WW2. Oceans dont offer any protection against attack anymore. Im not trying to bring people down but now might be a good time to get your food storage up to date and of course plenty of bullets.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Mar 14th, 2022 at 12:29pm

Morphy wrote on Mar 2nd, 2022 at 11:54am:
Anyone taking bets on the apocalypse?


My money is on peace and security.  That’s all any politicians can talk about, so I’m pretty sure they’ll find a way to doom us all with that somehow… perhaps a slow, painful death by paternalistic lecturing.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Morphy on Mar 15th, 2022 at 10:49am

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Mar 14th, 2022 at 12:29pm:

Morphy wrote on Mar 2nd, 2022 at 11:54am:
Anyone taking bets on the apocalypse?


My money is on peace and security.  That’s all any politicians can talk about, so I’m pretty sure they’ll find a way to doom us all with that somehow… perhaps a slow, painful death by paternalistic lecturing.


That is a fate worse than death.  ;D


Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Rat Man on Mar 15th, 2022 at 11:39am

Morphy wrote on Mar 14th, 2022 at 9:48am:
Yep. As I said earlier in this thread its going to get real when America gets attacked. This isnt WW2. Oceans dont offer any protection against attack anymore. Im not trying to bring people down but now might be a good time to get your food storage up to date and of course plenty of bullets.


Already done.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Rat Man on Apr 16th, 2022 at 8:00am
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/savingandinvesting/russia-s-debt-default-will-be-one-of-the-hardest-in-history-to-resolve-and-could-see-the-us-seize-the-central-bank-s-assets-economist-says/ar-AAWhg3g?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=1f20549fe6b04ad3965971dcb5b6ebe8

Call my opinion simplistic if you like but it's all about the money and that's where Putin has screwed up royally.  This will be his undoing. 

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Hirtius on Apr 16th, 2022 at 9:51pm
I don’t think this will be Putin’s undoing, there’s more to his influence than just money. Apparently he has overwhelming support at home during this conflict.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Rat Man on Apr 17th, 2022 at 8:39am
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/what-will-happen-if-russia-defaults-on-its-debt/ar-AAWhiop?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=705f17dda18e40798f250218dd49aab4

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by perpetualstudent on Apr 17th, 2022 at 8:10pm
From that article you just posted RM

"Despite the symbolism of a default, the economic implications for Russia and the world could be relatively small."

Even the fastest punishment, damaging Russia's credit rating, actually can't happen because of the European Union sanctions (again in that article you just posted). And even if it happened, that would damage their ability to trade internationally but the sanctions are preventing that from happening. Meanwhile the Ruble has recovered to pre-invasion levels and the Putin narrative that "it's the west against Russia" has been lent incredible levels of support.

Wealth matters absolutely. But wealth isn't just dollars.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by Morphy on Apr 18th, 2022 at 5:18am
I am far more worried about the dollar than the ruble.  When we are just the dollar and no longer the petrodollar we are in for a big problem. We are now seeing and,have for some time, talk of programable digital currency which I believe is going to correspond with the collapse or close to collapse of our current currency. It will likely be national at first then perhaps regional and final a global currency in the future.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by J on Apr 29th, 2022 at 4:51pm
In war truth is the first casualty always
I feel I understand Putins position, but I don't agree with him.
Russia simply does not have the capacity to be what Putin wants it to be, they lack
It inherently.
It looks to me this will end very badly but it is out of our control,
But our own actions are not, which is what matters especially
In time crisis as they put our characters to the test.

Title: Re: Gotta Wonder Where This Ends
Post by J on Apr 30th, 2022 at 10:21am
One thing Russia as a nation has is a massive identity crisis
caused by the very chaotic and sad chain of historical events introduced by the revolution ( which was largely financed from overseas by foreigners)

Putin is trying to hold the fabric of that country together, tying together all kinds of opposing ideologies and sentiments due to the identity crisis of that nation and its people. That's why they fly the Tricolor flag next to the red star .

They blame Lenin for creating Ukraine yet at the same time rearise fallen Lenin statues in "liberated" cities.

Russia doesn't know whether to hate communism or to love it.
Hating communism would mean  the ''Great Patriotic War'' may not have been as Patriotic...
But hating communism would also mean agreeing with Hitler and thats a no no because Hitler wanted to destroy the Russian nation..
At the same time... if there never was communism in the first place, there might never have been a Hitler either.
Loving communism is also hard. It caused great starvation and persecution.
But at the same time, when communism did finally dissappear, the country fell into a great chaos and suffering.

The communists promised great things to the Russians when they got to power. They didn't deliver, on the contrary.
The capitalists promised great things to Russians when communism disentregated. They didn't deliver either.

Russia as a nation should therefor be handled carefully. They are not ''rational'' or grown up at the moment. They have an identity crisis. This failing war is making things a lot worse. Now that the west has pretty much guaranteed to keep
supplying Ukraine there's no real victory in sight. Plus domestic attacks are increasing. Yet their great victory parade is in 2 weeks and right now they got nothing to show for. If they wanted a victory in Ukraine they clearly should have steamrolled that country from the get go with all they had, but it seems to late now. Of course, I am just an armchair general, so my opinion is quite meaningless.
The nation is being pushed to a point where they very well could push the button. They feel their existence is starting to become threathened. I think this point would arrive when Ukraine gains more successes with western weaponry
and they start an offensive to retake Crimea and the East....




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