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Message started by joe_meadmaker on Dec 5th, 2021 at 5:17pm

Title: Stone vs. Shield
Post by joe_meadmaker on Dec 5th, 2021 at 5:17pm
This is it.  This is what the impact testing I've been doing all year has been working toward.  Finally got myself out there in the line of fire, so to speak.

This experience was a bit scary, but also exhilarating.

https://youtu.be/XSp7AtQKoiQ

Title: Re: Stone vs. Shield
Post by Jaegoor on Dec 5th, 2021 at 6:19pm
Verrückter Kerl.  ;D

Title: Re: Stone vs. Shield
Post by IronGoober on Dec 5th, 2021 at 11:31pm

Jaegoor wrote on Dec 5th, 2021 at 6:19pm:
Verrückter Kerl.  ;D

I second that!!

Title: Re: Stone vs. Shield
Post by Archaic Arms on Dec 6th, 2021 at 11:02am
Interesting test!
Any reason you opted for the arm-strap rather than just a centre grip?

Title: Re: Stone vs. Shield
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Dec 6th, 2021 at 11:29am
Great video as always Joe!  Way to take one for the team! 

Now you need a remote controlled trebuchet that launches straight up. 

Title: Re: Stone vs. Shield
Post by MikeG on Dec 6th, 2021 at 11:58am

Archaic Arms wrote on Dec 6th, 2021 at 11:02am:
Interesting test!
Any reason you opted for the arm-strap rather than just a centre grip?


im no expert, but i guess the centre grip is not as stable and the stone could rotate the shield out of the way

Title: Re: Stone vs. Shield
Post by Jaegoor on Dec 6th, 2021 at 12:18pm
Der Schild hat keinen Schildbuckel. Deshalb ist ein Mittelgriff unsinnig. Er ist auch nicht gewölbt. Und er dürfte einiges an Gewicht haben.

Title: Re: Stone vs. Shield
Post by joe_meadmaker on Dec 6th, 2021 at 12:43pm

Archaic Arms wrote on Dec 6th, 2021 at 11:02am:
Any reason you opted for the arm-strap rather than just a centre grip?

Jaegoor is correct.  MikeG is also on the right track.  I wouldn't be worried about getting hit by a stone because the shield was moved out of the way, but having more points of contact with the shield keeps it more stable when impact occurs.  This can be seen even with my setup.  If you open the video and go to the slow motion hit at 15:04, you can see a hit near the edge of the shield rotates it a bit.  That effect would have been worse with a center grip.

My main reason for the arm strap was the size and weight of the shield.  At 27" diameter and over 14 pounds, it's definitely a hefty one.  With a center grip I would have been very limited on recording time based solely on how long I could hold it up.  With the weight spread over the arm, that wasn't a concern.  My arm got tired, but I was never at a point where I wouldn't be able to easily lift the shield over my head.  The entire recording session time was about an hour and a half.

That leads to an obvious question, why such a large and heavy shield.  I wanted to make sure I was covered up well.  And I also wanted the shield's own weight to be able to absorb a lot of energy.  If it was taking the brunt of the force, then I wouldn't have to.

The second big reason was to disperse the impact I did get.  With a center grip, the impact force would have gone right into my hand and wrist.  With the straps and handle, any force I took was spread over the entire forearm.




NooneOfConsequence wrote on Dec 6th, 2021 at 11:29am:
Now you need a remote controlled trebuchet that launches straight up.

I do want to build a small scale trebuchet.  No one should be surprised if something like that happens one day.  ;)

Title: Re: Stone vs. Shield
Post by Kick on Dec 7th, 2021 at 7:03am

Jaegoor wrote on Dec 5th, 2021 at 6:19pm:
Verrückter Kerl.  ;D

I didn't think I needed to translate this, but checked...

Yep that's my assessment as well :D

Title: Re: Stone vs. Shield
Post by Morphy on Dec 7th, 2021 at 8:22am
I didnt hear you actually say "Hold my beer" but just assumed it was said off camera. That was a crazy video Joe and very informative.

So my thought for awhile now on slings vs shields/armored opponents has been the best match ups would probably be in siege tactics from ramparts. If 40 ft/ ~13m ramparts and slinging a 1.1 pound/ 499g stone up as vertical as possible (lets say 40m) then impact KE would be 3 times as much.

Seeing as you would probably be the only one who could give a reasonably accurate answer to this question do you think it would seriously damage your arm with that much energy? This is with one stone, Im leaving out the whole battle scenario. I guess it would be impossible to know for sure but if the heaviest stone you tried didnt hurt at all it might be possible?

Title: Re: Stone vs. Shield
Post by joe_meadmaker on Dec 7th, 2021 at 8:59am
It is difficult to say because there are so many factors.  But I think it's possible to take a much bigger hit.

I think one key thing is the size and mass of the shield.  For a moment let's not even worry about the potential for a broken shield.  With a big heavy shield, it's taking care of a lot of the problem just because the stone's energy needs to get it moving.  If you think back on the shield video that Kick did, and the buckler he has, the experiment I did is not something I would ever do with a shield of that type.

Another big thing is the angle.  If you have a shield strapped to your arm, and hold it over your head, it's naturally at an angle.  This is a very good thing.  It means that any impacts are going to be glancing hits.  The steeper the angle, the less impact the person will need to take.  Although the other side of that coin, the steeper the angle the more you expose yourself.

The way I was set up, and the shield I had, I would not have been worried about an impact of 3X the force breaking the shield.  I also wouldn't have too much concern of my arm getting broken.  I think the first area I would have for concern is the shoulder.  That seems to be the joint that takes a lot of the force.  But the shoulder will also move when that impact comes in.  So there's a good bit of movement and time for the impact to be absorbed.  I have other tests planned, but need a good bit of time to get things setup and tested.


I'll also throw this out here.  In case anyone is worried, I don't have any kind of crazy death wish.  There was definitely an element of danger in the recording of that video, but it wasn't something done on a whim.  It was the result of many hours of experimentation and practicing.  I was quite familiar with throwing projectiles up in the air and "catching" them with a shield.  I was also familiar with what kind of impact the shield would be able to take.  This will be the same with any future experiments.  If I feel that I won't be able to protect myself sufficiently during a particular test, I won't do it.  Instead I'll just come here and tell you guys about it, and why I decided not to do it.

Title: Re: Stone vs. Shield
Post by Jaegoor on Dec 14th, 2021 at 6:17am
Dies war ein Treffer bei einem reenactor Kampf. Ein Treffer aus ca 80m mit einer Wasserbombe. Der Träger ist im Bild. Ein großer Wikinger. Er sagte , der Treffer wäre wie ein Auto gewesen. Er stürzte, blieb aber unverletzt. :o
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Title: Re: Stone vs. Shield
Post by Jaegoor on Dec 14th, 2021 at 6:27am
Noch ein spektakulärer Treffer. Nicht gegen einen Schild, aber dennoch eindrucksvoll. Eine Heat Shot mit einer Wasserbombe auf etwa 50 m .der Arme Ritter stürzte seitlich und blieb liegen. Alle bewunderten ihn für seinen realistische  Stunt. Er blieb wie tot liegen. Keiner ahnte, das er bewusstlos war. Der Treffer hatte ihn sofort ausgeknockt. Nach zwanzig Minuten schaute ein Sanitäter nach. Er kam langsam wieder zu Bewusstsein. Er wusste nicht was passiert war. Zum Glück erholte er sich ziemlich schnell.
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Title: Re: Stone vs. Shield
Post by Curious Aardvark on Dec 14th, 2021 at 9:19am
joes neighbours:

elmer: 'he's out there again'
zetal: 'what's he doing this time ?'
elmer: 'trying to kill himself.'
zetal: 'again ?'
elmer: 'yup.'


Now there's an insanity test I use. 'Would i do that ?'
And you know what, I probably would. Plus I'm way better at slinging straight up lol

I've had lead glandes slung at me with no protection.
So yeah I 'would' do it.
But, darn, joe went and beat me to it - oh well, I'll just have to find another way to try and kill myself :whistle:

Love the last statement: 'i'd feel safe behind that shield.'
 
One reason I've alaways advocated ankle breakers for troops with shields :-)
head shots are all well and good - but a broken ankle takes a man out of the fight just as effectively.

As always, well thought out and executed experiments. :thumb:


Title: Re: Stone vs. Shield
Post by MikeG on Dec 14th, 2021 at 4:37pm

Jaegoor wrote on Dec 14th, 2021 at 6:27am:
Noch ein spektakulärer Treffer. Nicht gegen einen Schild, aber dennoch eindrucksvoll. Eine Heat Shot mit einer Wasserbombe auf etwa 50 m .der Arme Ritter stürzte seitlich und blieb liegen. Alle bewunderten ihn für seinen realistische  Stunt. Er blieb wie tot liegen. Keiner ahnte, das er bewusstlos war. Der Treffer hatte ihn sofort ausgeknockt. Nach zwanzig Minuten schaute ein Sanitäter nach. Er kam langsam wieder zu Bewusstsein. Er wusste nicht was passiert war. Zum Glück erholte er sich ziemlich schnell.


Zeigt auf jeden Fall, dass eine Schleuder auch für Gegner mit Rüstung gefährlich war. Hätte nie gedacht, dass eine Wasserbombe so etwas anrichten könnte

Title: Re: Stone vs. Shield
Post by Thearos on Dec 15th, 2021 at 12:51pm
1. Insane
2. Wear a fencing mask to protect face

Wouldn't it be simpler to wear face and body protection, stand behind some waist-high sandbags, and ask to be slung at ?

Title: Re: Stone vs. Shield
Post by joe_meadmaker on Dec 15th, 2021 at 2:35pm
1. I can't argue a certain level of that.
2. I considered a helmet with a full face shield, or some other kind of face covering.  I ultimately decided against it because I wanted to keep my vision 100% open and clear.  Whether that advantage was worth the additional risk would be for anyone to decide for themselves.

And on your last question, possibly, but I don't have another slinger.  :(

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