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Message started by NooneOfConsequence on Nov 12th, 2021 at 5:49pm

Title: Slinging with a shield
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Nov 12th, 2021 at 5:49pm
https://youtu.be/NE1myDNXtuA

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by Morphy on Nov 12th, 2021 at 6:23pm
Youve got all the best toys lol. Great video man!  :D

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by timpa on Nov 12th, 2021 at 6:45pm
Wet Tennis ball = dead  :)

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by joe_meadmaker on Nov 12th, 2021 at 6:54pm
YEAH!!!!  A sling and shield video!  :D

Did you get that shield to do that, or was it just something you had laying around the house?

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by Lacumo on Nov 13th, 2021 at 9:41am
YES!!   Now I need a full auto, belt-fed, shield-mounted sling.   Where's Jorg Sprave when I need him?   

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by Hirtius on Nov 13th, 2021 at 2:10pm
Honestly NOOC, I don’t think it’s as awkward as you think. I don’t think any swinging motions would leave the body completely defended all of the time. That’s probably how it’s supposed to work. Your handling looks a bit awkward, but you might just need a slinging shoulder bag like Jaegoor.

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by Rat Man on Nov 13th, 2021 at 2:11pm
   I don't think you looked all that awkward.  You seemed to almost have it down pat.

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by IronGoober on Nov 13th, 2021 at 5:58pm
I wonder if that is why bucklers were often depicted. Because they aren't attached at the elbow, even when you turn you shoulders you can keep the shield in front of you.

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Nov 13th, 2021 at 8:57pm

joe_meadmaker wrote on Nov 12th, 2021 at 6:54pm:
YEAH!!!!  A sling and shield video!  :D

Did you get that shield to do that, or was it just something you had laying around the house?


I’ve had that thing lying around for a few years… long story.  It was bought for a very specific purpose, but that purpose never panned out, so I finally dusted it off and tried slinging with it.

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by joe_meadmaker on Nov 13th, 2021 at 9:10pm

IronGoober wrote on Nov 13th, 2021 at 5:58pm:
I wonder if that is why bucklers were often depicted. Because they aren't attached at the elbow, even when you turn you shoulders you can keep the shield in front of you.

That's a good point IG.  Along with bucklers, any center grip shield would work.  A lot of Viking shields were center grip.

I went back and looked at the shield video I did when I was using the pitchback net.  The look is very similar.  As my shoulder rotate through the throwing motion, the shield moves to the side.  It's then brought back in front after the throw.

I think this is unavoidable with a shield that straps to the forearm.  The only way to prevent the momentary vulnerability would be to not rotate your upper body.  But that would obviously decrease the power of the throw by a large percentage.

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Nov 13th, 2021 at 9:26pm

Hirtius wrote on Nov 13th, 2021 at 2:10pm:
Honestly NOOC, I don’t think it’s as awkward as you think. I don’t think any swinging motions would leave the body completely defended all of the time. That’s probably how it’s supposed to work. Your handling looks a bit awkward, but you might just need a slinging shoulder bag like Jaegoor.


I’m pretty comfortable with the slinging form part, but it still felt pretty awkward… My rate of fire was maybe 1/3rd or 1/4th as fast, accuracy was worse than normal, and reloads were really bad. Obviously an ammo bag would help, but the biggest thing is that I need more practice. I definitely think I could do better.

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Nov 13th, 2021 at 9:49pm

IronGoober wrote on Nov 13th, 2021 at 5:58pm:
I wonder if that is why bucklers were often depicted. Because they aren't attached at the elbow, even when you turn you shoulders you can keep the shield in front of you.


Having used a sling and shield one time… I’m obviously not an expert, but I definitely can see why a buckler might be preferred for freedom of movement and mobility. I wonder though if maybe the buckler is more useful for hand-to-hand combat than ranged defense, since slingers pictured with a buckler usually also have a sword.

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by IronGoober on Nov 14th, 2021 at 2:25am

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Nov 13th, 2021 at 9:49pm:
I wonder though if maybe the buckler is more useful for hand-to-hand combat than ranged defense, since slingers pictured with a buckler usually also have a sword.

Well, to be a bit flippant, if I were in a battle, I'd want at least a stick with me in addition to the sling, especially if I wasn't well shod and/or in great shape for running. 

But it does make you wonder how a buckler and short sword could be effective, especially if the sling could out range bows. Shouldn't they be out of range? (perhaps not from other slingers?) I would think the buckler/sword would really just be insurance for if the battle didn't go as planned and they needed to defend themselves, or possibly if more bodies were needed for a route of the other forces.  But I know next to nothing about ancient battles so I probably shouldn't be spouting my unsubstantiated thoughts, and yet, here we are.

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by Archaic Arms on Nov 14th, 2021 at 5:08am
Shields without an arm brace, like a Saxon shield or Roman scutum, allows you to hold the shield out in from of you and cover more of your body from projectiles. I think that would also act like a buffer to help against high energy impacts, i.e big stones.

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by Kick on Nov 14th, 2021 at 9:58am
I have a buckler which I've been meaning to do a video with. One problem is that it's all steel and is HEAVY. Note I wrote HEAVY not heavy. Holding it out in my left hand for any length of time is not easy. It's a combination of me being weak and it being a not very historically accurate shield. I think most bucklers would have been far lighter. I have done some test "shots" with an empty sling and, as far as I can tell comparing it to Nooc's video, it's far easier to rotate my body and keep the shield in place. The centre-grip is the main reason it's easier, but the riot shield being far taller, wider and generally more bulky looks like it makes slinging more awkward. I'll try and get a video this week slinging with my shield.

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by joe_meadmaker on Nov 14th, 2021 at 12:56pm
A buckler would have been more specific to one on one combat.  Its main purpose is to parry and deflect close quarter weapons.  Definitely not something that would have been carried into battle against ranged weapons.

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by Kick on Nov 14th, 2021 at 1:53pm
Better than no shield though :D I think most slingers would have had pretty small light weight shields if they did have a shield. I would love to make a wicker shield with a leather cover some time.

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by Jaegoor on Nov 14th, 2021 at 4:41pm
Aja. Warum gibt es dann zahlreiche Bilder mit buckler und kleinem Schild?

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by joe_meadmaker on Nov 14th, 2021 at 6:04pm
I'm certainly no expert, so I can only speak on what I've read, and what otherwise makes sense to me.  I'm happy to hear new information.

I haven't seen anything on slingers specifically, but I've read discussion on archers carrying bucklers or small shields.  But these shields didn't seem to be intended as a defense against missile fire from the opposing side, but rather for defensive use if/when a battle turned into a melee fight.  It would make sense because a smaller shield isn't much extra weight to carry, but it's very helpful in close combat.

It also doesn't make much sense to me that an army of slingers, archers, or whatever would be positioned within range of the opposing force's long range attack.  And even if they did, a buckler still wouldn't be good at defending against incoming projectiles unless they were visible and moving slow enough for a person to react to them.  As Kick said, "better than no shield".  Which I agree with.  I still wouldn't call it good.

But on what you said about pictures Jaegoor, I have seen pictures of slingers holding shields that appear to be fairly small in size.  I haven't seen pictures of an army using them against incoming missile fire.  If you have an image of that, I would very much like to see it.

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by Jaegoor on Nov 15th, 2021 at 2:29am
;)
47c285a539c89009481912996e5e3174.jpg (42 KB | 31 )

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by Morphy on Nov 15th, 2021 at 4:57am
I can't imagine the emphasis for bucklers had much to do with defense against projectiles. The greater defense you add on a slinger either through actively trying to block with a shield or giving them a larger shield the more you take away from offense which is their primary purpose. Ultimately you end up with a poor ranged unit with better defense which accomplishes nothing.

Assuming the armies arent complete morons and are doing staggered volleys Im also not quite sure when exactly you are meant to sling in between all the blocking? If done correctly there shouldnt be a lot of time in between volleys and if your tactic is to sling only when its relatively safe youve pretty much doomed your infantry since the opposing side will be putting out so much more firepower than you. But thank goodness you will be safe...until your front line is overwhelmed and you die anyways.

If defense vs projectiles was a main concern just give them bigger shields and take the hit on offense.

I would bet money that when the decision to give them bucklers was first made they said word for word what Kick did: "Its better than nothing".


Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by joe_meadmaker on Nov 15th, 2021 at 10:07am
Thanks for the picture Jaegoor.  Although if we're talking about the slinger that's standing in front of the dead guy, I would argue that's not a buckler he's holding.  The top of the shield is partially covering his face, and the bottom is below his waist.  That's way too big for a buckler.

It also looks like it's being held by the forearm (can't be positive though).  But this also would disqualify it as a buckler in my opinion.

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by MikeG on Nov 15th, 2021 at 10:34am

joe_meadmaker wrote on Nov 15th, 2021 at 10:07am:
Thanks for the picture Jaegoor.  Although if we're talking about the slinger that's standing in front of the dead guy, I would argue that's not a buckler he's holding.  The top of the shield is partially covering his face, and the bottom is below his waist.  That's way too big for a buckler.

It also looks like it's being held by the forearm (can't be positive though).  But this also would disqualify it as a buckler in my opinion.


well, he said buckler and small shield.

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by joe_meadmaker on Nov 15th, 2021 at 2:02pm

MikeG wrote on Nov 15th, 2021 at 10:34am:
well, he said buckler and small shield.

He did.  But if he was initially responding to my comment at the top of this page, I didn't.  While a buckler is a small shield, not all small shields are bucklers.  I would not have made the same statement about small shields as whole.  That's too broad of a category.

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by Jaegoor on Nov 15th, 2021 at 3:16pm
Korinthenkackerei.  ;) Eigentlich ist ein buckler ein Faustschild. Aber auch diese sieht man bei slinger. 
IMG-20211115-WA0066.jpg (110 KB | 19 )

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by joe_meadmaker on Nov 15th, 2021 at 3:54pm
Perhaps.  :D

I think we're in complete agreement on what a buckler is.  My point was just that it won't be a great choice against long range weapons.  The surface area is too small.

Another thing that comes to mind about any center grip shield is the reloading of a sling.  With a shield that is strapped to the arm, the shield hand is pretty free to take care of reloading.  But when the shield hand is the only thing holding it up, that could be more difficult.  I actually don't have a center grip shield.  All of mine have a strap for the forearm.  I might have to build one.

That's a great picture.  It does make me wonder.

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by Jaegoor on Nov 15th, 2021 at 4:02pm
Ein am Unterarm befestigter Schild in nicht klug. Er ist wenig flexibel. ein Schild wird nicht nur als Schutz geführt. Er ist auch eine Waffe. Für einen Slinger auch eine Zielhilfe

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by joe_meadmaker on Nov 15th, 2021 at 7:10pm
I disagree.  If the shield is attached to the arm in a way that it can't be removed quickly and easily, I don't like that.  But on my own shields I attach a fixed leather strap that I just slide my arm through.  This doesn't prevent the shield from being held down at the side.  It also doesn't prevent it from being used offensively.  You can still push forward with it, or "punch" with the edge.

One of the main benefits of a forearm strap is that most of the shield weight is supported on the arm near the elbow rather than by the hand.  This provides better leverage and makes it much easier to hold shields that are large or heavy.

And a shield held in front of you will be a target aid for slingers whether it's held by the hand or by the forearm.

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by Kick on Nov 16th, 2021 at 4:31am
My video on slinging with a shield is almost ready. I've had some problems with exporting but it will be out soon. I will say, reloading takes getting used to, but is easier than expected with a centre-grip. I think even a small buckler would be of some use to a slinger, obviously in hand-to-hand but also from missles if they did get caught in a bad spot. Having even a small shield out protects the upper body, the heart and lungs most importantly, and, because of this, does add some confidence. If nothing else, it helps feel more protected even if it isn't 100% effective. If I was a slinger on a battlefield, I would take a shield.

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by Kick on Nov 16th, 2021 at 4:49am
Video finally up: https://youtu.be/QFS2kaoZcDE

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by Jaegoor on Nov 16th, 2021 at 10:57am
Nicht schlecht gemacht. ;) Ein wenig Übung fehlt noch.

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by joe_meadmaker on Nov 16th, 2021 at 12:52pm
Awesome video Kick!

It does bring a couple things to mind.  I think keeping the shield in front of you will not just decrease the power of the throw, but also change the usual point of release.  This all occurring because the shoulder on your shield side will need to stay in the same place (more or less), preventing the upper body from rotating.

Also love that setting.  The background in your video looks so clear and pretty, if someone told me it was fake and you recorded in front of a green screen, I would believe them.

And the big question.  With that buckler in hand, would you move to the other side of the field and let someone sling tennis balls at you?  :D

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by Jaegoor on Nov 16th, 2021 at 5:52pm
Wir reden aber schon noch über kleine Schilde und buckler? Ein kleiner Schild wurde nicht mit einem Riemen getragen. Sondern hinter dem Schildbuckel. Dafür war dieser da. Als Griffschutz.
Kite Schilde wie Normannen Schilde wurden so getragen wie von dir beschrieben. Aber ihr Einsatz war ein völlig anderer.

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by joe_meadmaker on Nov 16th, 2021 at 6:38pm
Sorry, I thought that was a general statement on shields.  My mistake.

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by MikeG on Nov 17th, 2021 at 4:55am

joe_meadmaker wrote on Nov 16th, 2021 at 12:52pm:
With that buckler in hand, would you move to the other side of the field and let someone sling tennis balls at you


i would

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by Jaegoor on Nov 17th, 2021 at 5:01am
Ja. Das haben wir bereits mehrfach gemacht

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by MikeG on Nov 17th, 2021 at 6:23am

Jaegoor wrote on Nov 17th, 2021 at 5:01am:
Ja. Das haben wir bereits mehrfach gemacht


Tennisbälle sind nicht das schmerzhafteste, dass man abkriegen kann

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by Kick on Nov 17th, 2021 at 6:27am

joe_meadmaker wrote on Nov 16th, 2021 at 12:52pm:
Awesome video Kick!

Thanks Joe!

I've been doing some fight training with a Viking reenactment group (to see if I could find new slingers really  :P) and got the chance last night to sling with a viking shield against someone also with a Viking shield using the safe sock ammo. It was surprisingly easy even with a large shield, but yes, centre-grip is a must. What was interesting was the reaction my opponents had to getting slung at. First, I was slinging at a fairly experienced battle reenactor and then against an instructor who is very experienced. My shots went over their heads (I wasn't really trying to hit them) but they really weren't expecting them to be so fast. They both ducked as quick as they could, throwing the shield up, but not in a controlled way. They completely lost their composure because it was so new to them. I think with more experience against slingers, a soldier would be more composed, but against any untrained troops, a sling bullet would be terrifying.

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by MikeG on Nov 17th, 2021 at 6:42am

Kick wrote on Nov 17th, 2021 at 6:27am:
a sling bullet would be terrifying


and now imagine a whistling sling bullet

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by Kick on Nov 17th, 2021 at 6:44am

MikeG wrote on Nov 17th, 2021 at 6:42am:
and now imagine a whistling sling bullet

Now imagine 60, 70, 100, 150 whistling sling bullets...  :o

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by MikeG on Nov 17th, 2021 at 7:11am

Kick wrote on Nov 17th, 2021 at 6:44am:

MikeG wrote on Nov 17th, 2021 at 6:42am:
and now imagine a whistling sling bullet

Now imagine 60, 70, 100, 150 whistling sling bullets...  :o


imagine hearing the whistling of that many bullets and soldiers getting hit by them and falling to the ground around you, without seeing where they are coming from. That would give you ptsd

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by Jaegoor on Nov 17th, 2021 at 8:09am
Wikinger Schilde brechen gut. ;)

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by Kick on Nov 17th, 2021 at 9:23am

Jaegoor wrote on Nov 17th, 2021 at 8:09am:
Wikinger Schilde brechen gut. ;)

I won't tell them that. They'll find out for themselves :D

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Nov 18th, 2021 at 12:01pm
Here’s attempt #2 with a riot shield.

Less awkward. Someone on YouTube recommended putting ammo on the opposite side… that helps!
Accuracy, power, and rate-of-fire are all worse than without a shield, but for some situations that might be a welcome tradeoff.

https://youtube.com/shorts/hyqOCa5DFpw?feature=share

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Nov 18th, 2021 at 12:06pm

Kick wrote on Nov 16th, 2021 at 4:49am:
Video finally up: https://youtu.be/QFS2kaoZcDE


Great video Kick… and slightly more authentic than mine :)

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by Kick on Nov 18th, 2021 at 12:32pm

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Nov 18th, 2021 at 12:01pm:
Here’s attempt #2 with a riot shield.

Less awkward. Someone on YouTube recommended putting ammo on the opposite side… that helps!
Accuracy, power, and rate-of-fire are all worse than without a shield, but for some situations that might be a welcome tradeoff.

https://youtube.com/shorts/hyqOCa5DFpw?feature=share

Good stuff! Good throws despite the shield size.

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by Morphy on Nov 19th, 2021 at 7:27am
It’s quite good NOOC. Considering you are completely new to the large shield and sling, I imagine with tons of practice a person could sling pretty hard even with that shield. With a buckler or a smaller shield it might not limit them much at all after plenty of training.

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by Kick on Nov 19th, 2021 at 7:31am
With the quick experience I got slinging with a Viking shield, I think the round aspect really helps. It's a lot less likely to get in the way even if it's large.

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by Jaegoor on Nov 19th, 2021 at 5:54pm
Von Ikea 😜
0a0feb6b258bc24089903a900ca62512.jpg (135 KB | 24 )

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by Archaic Arms on Nov 19th, 2021 at 6:43pm
I think a shield makes most sense with a very short sling like Tragan column slinger, but more so Assyrian slingers depiction. I don't have a shield, but I've attempted to simulate one, and it feels very handy with it.

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by joe_meadmaker on Nov 19th, 2021 at 7:42pm
@Jaegoor - Diameter?

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by Jaegoor on Nov 20th, 2021 at 5:58am
https://youtu.be/eLHXZcv_pf8

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by Jaegoor on Nov 20th, 2021 at 6:00am
https://youtu.be/tG7JORFOXqU

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by Jaegoor on Nov 20th, 2021 at 6:03am
https://youtu.be/7GV4P-SCirQ

Title: Re: Slinging with a shield
Post by Jaegoor on Nov 20th, 2021 at 6:56am
Durchmesser vom Schild 45 cm ;)
Sie kosten bei Ikea nicht viel Geld.
Ich habe einen Schildbuckel montiert. Von außen mit Leinen bespannt. Innen mit Hirschleder. Der Rand wurde mit Rohhaut verstärkt.
Diese Bauweise ist historische nicht korrekt. Aber es ist unglaublich stabil.

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