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General >> Slinging as a Sport, Competition Rules, Slinging Awards And Events >> New Ranking System
https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1636466610

Message started by Archaic Arms on Nov 9th, 2021 at 9:03am

Title: New Ranking System
Post by Archaic Arms on Nov 9th, 2021 at 9:03am
So this bubbled up as a result of this thread: https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1636237960

The idea is that a simple ranking system could be established by having a sub 1" coin (say US quarter or UK 10p coins for example) and having it set up at an interval of 10yds. Video proof of hitting the coin at the given interval earns you that rank.
I'm currently thinking something akin to a star system would be best, with 10yds being 1 star, 20yds 2 stars, 30yds 3 stars, and so on.
50 or so yards seems to be the point where the coin starts to become difficult to see, so it naturally acts as a range-cap. With the target being a coin, the setup should also be very compact and cost effective, in contrast to Balearic targets that are heavy, awkward, and potentially expensive.

The rules are that the projectiles cannot be larger than a certain size, and some proof of the distance is required. (we can discuss what these should be)

Filming of the hit can be achieved by videoing through a monocular (or better, a range-finder), and because these are not extended ranges, even cheap equipment should suffice.

Please express your ideas and opinions so that we can come up with something that's simple and works.


Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Morphy on Nov 9th, 2021 at 10:41am
Ive been wanting to introduce a ranking system for some time. This is one of the major reasons behind my max accuracy threads in the past so im totally with you on that.

Im of the opinion that for a ranking to mean something it has to be based on multiple hits in a row at least 2 times in a session with it happening 3 sessions in a row. Also the amount of shots you are allowed in each session and of course distance and ammo size are all part of it.

The reason behind this is to try and squash the ability to simply sling thousands of shots until you get a hit. Or perhaps sling just a normal amount of shots and get a *really* lucky streak that places you on a level you arent good enough to be at.

By using the above method we would reduce the incident of luck to almost nil. This would make each rank a very solid and consistent view of how good someone is on that rank.

Im not saying it would have to be exactly as the above but something that gets rid of luck and focuses on consistency imo would be ideal.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Archaic Arms on Nov 9th, 2021 at 11:24am

Morphy wrote on Nov 9th, 2021 at 10:41am:
Ive been wanting to introduce a ranking system for some time. This is one of the major reasons behind my max accuracy threads in the past so im totally with you on that.

Im of the opinion that for a ranking to mean something it has to be based on multiple hits in a row at least 2 times in a session with it happening 3 sessions in a row. Also the amount of shots you are allowed in each session and of course distance and ammo size are all part of it.

The reason behind this is to try and squash the ability to simply sling thousands of shots until you get a hit. Or perhaps sling just a normal amount of shots and get a *really* lucky streak that places you on a level you arent good enough to be at.

By using the above method we would reduce the incident of luck to almost nil. This would make each rank a very solid and consistent view of how good someone is on that rank.

Im not saying it would have to be exactly as the above but something that gets rid of luck and focuses on consistency imo would be ideal.


You are right in that what you propose would be more comprehensive and in-depth.
The way I see it however, is that the element of luck is not an issue, and the simplicity of the system and procedure is key. The idea with the coins is that because it is such a small target, you cannot rely on pure luck in order to get the hit on video. Your only real chance of getting the rank is by being consistent enough at the given range, to give you enough confidence that you can capture it on camera.

Another thing that I forgot to mention, is that one should have to have to get the previous rank first before you proceed to a further interval. I.e you can't be a 5 star slinger without doing the 1-4 star distances beforehand. (an idea Irongoober put forward)

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by IronGoober on Nov 9th, 2021 at 3:08pm

Archaic Arms wrote on Nov 9th, 2021 at 11:24am:
The reason behind this is to try and squash the ability to simply sling thousands of shots until you get a hit.



Archaic Arms wrote on Nov 9th, 2021 at 11:24am:
you can't be a 5 star slinger without doing the 1-4 star distances beforehand.


Morphy, I thought that if one is forced to do the distances in succession, the element of luck diminishes rapidly. Because if it was just luck (random chance) that allowed you to hit a target, the probability of you getting the second is even more remote because the distance has increased.

I kind of like the idea of just needing doing it once, because as I learned from my trickshots, you can get really really close many times and still not achieve the goal. You can be so, SO consistent and dialed in and still miss. Needing to do it twice in a row may just be adding in another factor of luck rather than reducing it.  You could add in a certain number of tries, etc., but then it makes keeping everyone honest more difficult. It would be easier to do in person, but on this virtual platform, I think a single verified hit should be sufficient, as long as it is in succession.

Feel free to disagree.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Sarosh on Nov 9th, 2021 at 3:28pm
even if it's by chance or even if they skip close distances and go straight to 50m I'd like to see people do it.
filming it is already difficult
it can be both a challenge and a ranking system

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Jaegoor on Nov 9th, 2021 at 4:50pm
Versuchen sie ein farbiges T-Shirt zu schießen.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Morphy on Nov 9th, 2021 at 5:05pm

IronGoober wrote on Nov 9th, 2021 at 3:08pm:

Archaic Arms wrote on Nov 9th, 2021 at 11:24am:
The reason behind this is to try and squash the ability to simply sling thousands of shots until you get a hit.



Archaic Arms wrote on Nov 9th, 2021 at 11:24am:
you can't be a 5 star slinger without doing the 1-4 star distances beforehand.


Morphy, I thought that if one is forced to do the distances in succession, the element of luck diminishes rapidly. Because if it was just luck (random chance) that allowed you to hit a target, the probability of you getting the second is even more remote because the distance has increased.

I kind of like the idea of just needing doing it once, because as I learned from my trickshots, you can get really really close many times and still not achieve the goal. You can be so, SO consistent and dialed in and still miss. Needing to do it twice in a row may just be adding in another factor of luck rather than reducing it.  You could add in a certain number of tries, etc., but then it makes keeping everyone honest more difficult. It would be easier to do in person, but on this virtual platform, I think a single verified hit should be sufficient, as long as it is in succession.

Feel free to disagree.


I do like AAs idea. I want it to be clear im not doggin on him or the idea in general. My only concern is that you can have two guys of wildly different skill levels able to be at the same star because one had a really good, lucky shot (perhaps after 1000 tries) and the other had a shot based more on skill after say 50 tries.

The more shots in a row the more the law of averages comes into play. So while you might have a really lucky day the likelihood of hitting a shot 3 times in a row and even perhaps multiple times in one session would really go a long ways to assure its not mostly luck.

With a one shot and youre done system almost anyone with enough determination and enough shots is going to end up at a high star ranking.

Its really like any olympic shooting sport the more hits needed in a set number of tries means a higher skill level is needed to accomplish it.

Again just my 2 cents. Everyone can follow their own view on this one of course.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Archaic Arms on Nov 10th, 2021 at 10:10am

Morphy wrote on Nov 9th, 2021 at 5:05pm:
I do like AAs idea. I want it to be clear im not doggin on him or the idea in general. My only concern is that you can have two guys of wildly different skill levels able to be at the same star because one had a really good, lucky shot (perhaps after 1000 tries) and the other had a shot based more on skill after say 50 tries.

The more shots in a row the more the law of averages comes into play. So while you might have a really lucky day the likelihood of hitting a shot 3 times in a row and even perhaps multiple times in one session would really go a long ways to assure its not mostly luck.

With a one shot and youre done system almost anyone with enough determination and enough shots is going to end up at a high star ranking.

Its really like any olympic shooting sport the more hits needed in a set number of tries means a higher skill level is needed to accomplish it.

Again just my 2 cents. Everyone can follow their own view on this one of course.


I don't think that would be an issue, as there is nothing stopping the better slinger from going for a higher rank. (after all, there is no cap to how many stars you can have)
Determination will certainly aid you, but that also goes for any other video-based ranking system.

One more thing - The higher the rank, the less luck.
A beginner may by pure chance get the 10y hit, but there is no chance they could climb the ranks and stand amongst experts with 6 or so stars, without becoming an expert themselves. At those distances, so many other factors come into play; factors that only experience would allow you to overcome. I actually see it being representative of skill level (especially the higher ranks) if people took it on.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Morphy on Nov 10th, 2021 at 1:52pm
AA, I gotcha man. In this case we may disagree but im also looking forward to being wrong because its a very straightforward system and Ive felt like we need a ranking system for years now. Whatever is decided, if anything is decided, I will gladly take part in it.  :)

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by joe_meadmaker on Nov 10th, 2021 at 4:58pm
I think both ideas are valid.  One is about being able to accomplish a task.  The other is about being able to repeat the accomplishment.  Either works fine, it's just dependent on what we're after.

There will be much more opportunity for people to rise in the ranks if it's just a single hit.  I completely agree that one hit doesn't represent a slingers skill anywhere near as much as repeating a hit.  But I do know that I'm never getting 2 hits in a row on a coin at 20 m (or yards, whatever is decided on).  I might be able to pull off a double at 10.  But at 20, that ain't happening.  ;D

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by IronGoober on Nov 10th, 2021 at 5:48pm
I
joe_meadmaker wrote on Nov 10th, 2021 at 4:58pm:
might be able to pull off a double at 10.  But at 20, that ain't happening. 

I'm with you Joe, which is why my vote is the way it is. 

Morphy, how about this? If you can complete it up to 50 yards/m (whichever is decided), you're a 5 star, then if you want to get to 6, you have to get 2 shots in a row at 10m, for 7, 2 shots in a row at 20m, etc...   

I actually kind of like the idea. There is no end to the ranking that you could achieve.



Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Morphy on Nov 10th, 2021 at 6:26pm

IronGoober wrote on Nov 10th, 2021 at 5:48pm:
I
joe_meadmaker wrote on Nov 10th, 2021 at 4:58pm:
might be able to pull off a double at 10.  But at 20, that ain't happening. 

I'm with you Joe, which is why my vote is the way it is. 

Morphy, how about this? If you can complete it up to 50 yards/m (whichever is decided), you're a 5 star, then if you want to get to 6, you have to get 2 shots in a row at 10m, for 7, 2 shots in a row at 20m, etc...   

I actually kind of like the idea. There is no end to the ranking that you could achieve.


That is a fantastic and simple solution. I love it!!

Also just to clear something up I wasnt thinking multiple hits on a coin.. I was thinking more of a system of distances and targets that are reflective of the skill level one desired. The first level could be multiple shots on maybe a balearic target at 10 meters. All the way up to something like a soda can at 50.

But yeah thats neither here nor there, I love the idea IG. Im totally in.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by joe_meadmaker on Nov 10th, 2021 at 10:06pm

Morphy wrote on Nov 10th, 2021 at 6:26pm:
That is a fantastic and simple solution. I love it!!

+1

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Archaic Arms on Nov 11th, 2021 at 7:10am
I'm liking where this is going IG.
In retrospect, I think before we establish anything we should try and make everything as practical, compact, and simple as possible. There are some legitimate downsides of using a coin as a target. (filming complications have been pointed out, repeated hits extremely difficult, and they are easy to lose once hit)
So I've done some thinking and I recon a target that's 1ft round would be a good balance of both worlds. It's small enough to fit into a backpack, and should be big enough to video up to 50yd/m, especially if painted a contrasting colour.
I'm wondering whether a target this size, combined with a 'streak' based system would work well for our mostly online community.

Here's the notion:
In order to get 1 star, you have to hit the target at 10yd/m twice, with the two shots no more than 10 shots apart.

In order to get 5 stars, you have to hit the target at 50yd/m twice, with the two shots no more than 10 shots apart.

And so on...
You get the idea hopefully.

The idea behind this is that you can just have the camera rolling the entire session, and then just edit it after to have a short, uncut slinging clip with the two hits (within 10 shots apart).
This combines some of the importance of repeatability that Morphy mentioned, with greater simplicity and ease of filming. It should also be easy enough to give most people a couple of stars, while being difficult enough to make a rank like 5 stars properly impressive.
We could play around with the numbers a bit, say instead of two hits within 10 shots apart, have 3 hits within 15 shots. Or something like that. It should be difficult enough to keep the ranges relatively low.

I now see the sub 1" coin at 50yd being a terrific online challenge, and that's probably were it should stay. Get the it and you join the Crack-Shot Club...

Any thoughts?

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Morphy on Nov 11th, 2021 at 8:38am
I like it AA.

The target size is actually an important point.  Even with soda cans good luck getting a target that size to show up on camera at 50ms..

I would also point out that the max accuracy thread weve been working on can give you a really good gauge of what level the difficulty could/should be for each level.

The formula we use has proven to be a very reliable indicator of difficulty regardless of target size and distance. All that matters is the ratio between the two. So perhaps we could decide first what signifies the different ranking levels (keeping in mind the upward drift of skill levels as years go by) and then make sure 
whatever target is used falls in line with the correct ratio.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Sarosh on Nov 11th, 2021 at 9:21am
2 shots in a row @ 50m can the avg archer even do that?

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Kick on Nov 11th, 2021 at 9:55am

Archaic Arms wrote on Nov 11th, 2021 at 7:10am:
So I've done some thinking and I recon a target that's 1ft round would be a good balance of both worlds.

That's a far easier target to make and set up. I like it. I have a pan (another one) that's 24cm diameter so actually a little small, but still close enough and better too small than too big :D

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Jaegoor on Nov 11th, 2021 at 11:12am
a coin can hardly be seen at twenty meters.  at thirty meters they can no longer see a coin.  shoot them at Kubb.  Woods.  these games are standardized

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Archaic Arms on Nov 11th, 2021 at 1:43pm

Sarosh wrote on Nov 11th, 2021 at 9:21am:
2 shots in a row @ 50m can the avg archer even do that?

Sorry for confusion, I should have been clearer. I didn't mean to suggest two hits in a row, but instead two hits that are within 10 shots apart from each other.
For example, say you make the 50yd hit. You now have 9 shots left to hit it again, in order to get the 5-star rank.

With that said, I definitely recon an archer could hit a 1ft round target a 50yds, twice within 10 shots apart. 

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Archaic Arms on Nov 11th, 2021 at 1:49pm

Jaegoor wrote on Nov 11th, 2021 at 11:12am:
a coin can hardly be seen at twenty meters.  at thirty meters they can no longer see a coin.  shoot them at Kubb.  Woods.  these games are standardized

How big was the coin you were using?
The background and how shiny the coin is important as well.
Today I found out that with a dark background, I can clearly see a 10p coin (under 1" diameter) at 125yds, so I could probably see it even further away.
 

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Jaegoor on Nov 11th, 2021 at 2:02pm
there are things i believe and there are things i don't believe  some I want to see before I believe it.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Jaegoor on Nov 11th, 2021 at 2:03pm
https://youtu.be/N0263QMyMdU

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Archaic Arms on Nov 11th, 2021 at 3:55pm

Jaegoor wrote on Nov 11th, 2021 at 2:02pm:
there are things i believe and there are things i don't believe  some I want to see before I believe it.

There are pictures in this thread:
https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1636237960/15#23

If the camera sees it, then the eyes certainly can.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Archaic Arms on Nov 11th, 2021 at 5:41pm
Let's establish this first, with a poll.
Metric or Imperial?

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Jaegoor on Nov 11th, 2021 at 9:44pm
what a camera sees, they don't have to see for a long time.  in my hall I shoot at twenty meters.  they just barely recognize a rolling two euro coin.  at over 100 m you can no longer recognize them.  and certainly not shoot at it with a sling.  i shoot different weapons.  modern and archaic.  I like to invite you and you show me what you can do.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by IronGoober on Nov 12th, 2021 at 11:49am

Archaic Arms wrote on Nov 11th, 2021 at 3:55pm:

Jaegoor wrote on Nov 11th, 2021 at 2:02pm:
there are things i believe and there are things i don't believe  some I want to see before I believe it.

There are pictures in this thread:
https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1636237960/15#23

If the camera sees it, then the eyes certainly can.


If you have a shiny coin, the scattering of the light (diffuse reflectance, not specular reflectance) can make the coin "seen" at a distance much further than the eyes (or camera) can actually resolve the shape. Try the same thing with a dull coin, I think you'll find different results.

I like the 2 hits in 10 shots idea, but once you get out to the max distance, then how do you rank higher?

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Archaic Arms on Nov 12th, 2021 at 12:47pm

IronGoober wrote on Nov 12th, 2021 at 11:49am:
If you have a shiny coin, the scattering of the light (diffuse reflectance, not specular reflectance) can make the coin "seen" at a distance much further than the eyes (or camera) can actually resolve the shape. Try the same thing with a dull coin, I think you'll find different results.

I like the 2 hits in 10 shots idea, but once you get out to the max distance, then how do you rank higher?


Yes it is true, if the coin was tarnished and not shiny, the visible range would likely be a lot less. On the other side of the coin (pardon the pun), If the sky was clear and the sun was at my back, a shiny coin would be visible from a very long distance away.

Regarding the ranking system, I don't think a "max range"  may be necessary, and perhaps the system made difficult enough so anything over 50m (5 stars) is very rare.
That's why I've been thinking 3 hits in a dozen shots is probably better than 2 two hits in 10. Would be more interesting and exciting to watch, as well as make it suitably more challenging.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Morphy on Nov 12th, 2021 at 1:54pm

Jaegoor wrote on Nov 11th, 2021 at 11:12am:
a coin can hardly be seen at twenty meters.  at thirty meters they can no longer see a coin.  shoot them at Kubb.  Woods.  these games are standardized



This has been my experience as well although its been long enough since Ive made a long distance video that I forgot it in my earlier responses. One solution is to have a camera at the target end facing the slinger. This, of course, presents its own issues.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Archaic Arms on Nov 13th, 2021 at 4:14pm

Jaegoor wrote on Nov 11th, 2021 at 9:44pm:
what a camera sees, they don't have to see for a long time.  in my hall I shoot at twenty meters.  they just barely recognize a rolling two euro coin.  at over 100 m you can no longer recognize them.  and certainly not shoot at it with a sling.  i shoot different weapons.  modern and archaic.  I like to invite you and you show me what you can do.

Thank you for the invitation Jaegoor, I would very much enjoy a visit once/if the world resolves itself.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Archaic Arms on Nov 13th, 2021 at 4:46pm
So the poll results are in and it's a very conclusive victory for the metric system!

So what do people think about a 30cm round target as the standard?
Simply put, I think it's a nice round number, and fits in standard backpack nicely. I also think it's a size that's better suited to the growing number of great slingers.

Also, what do people think about 3 hits in a dozen shots for each 10m increment?
For example, if I was going for a III-STAR rank, I would film myself slinging at the 30m target until I get a hit. Once I get one hit, I now have 11 shots left to get two more hits. (to qualify for the III-STAR rank)
I think it's challenging enough that I don't think we will ever see any VII-STAR slingers (maybe?), but easy enough that the majority of slingers should be able to get a rank.

Please tell me if I'm horribly mistaken or if what I'm suggesting belongs on a compost heap...


Also share your own ideas/suggestions if you have them.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Nov 13th, 2021 at 10:00pm
The target in my backyard has a 30cm bullseye, so that’s convenient for me, but if you go with 30,You’re at the same order of magnitude as a Diana… why not just use the standard 50cm target?  It’s still difficult as the distance increases, but that keeps part of the new ranking system consistent with other slinging standards.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by IronGoober on Nov 14th, 2021 at 1:20am
I'm ok with any size of target, but I still like the coin the most.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Archaic Arms on Nov 14th, 2021 at 6:24am

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Nov 13th, 2021 at 10:00pm:
The target in my backyard has a 30cm bullseye, so that’s convenient for me, but if you go with 30,You’re at the same order of magnitude as a Diana… why not just use the standard 50cm target?  It’s still difficult as the distance increases, but that keeps part of the new ranking system consistent with other slinging standards.


Surface area of 50cm diana is 1963.5cm, and surface area of 30cm is 706.9cm (2.8x smaller)
I would consider that significantly smaller, but perhaps you are right that it would be better to conform to other slinging standards, despite the target being more awkward to haul about. I'll make a poll.

If we do decide that it's best, then we will have to make the  scoring more difficult as well. In essence, the ranking system would be a 'diana' only Balearic competition but with ranks designated with certain scores (at each distance increment)  Is this a popular notion?

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Archaic Arms on Nov 14th, 2021 at 6:28am
Next poll: Targets

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Mersa on Nov 14th, 2021 at 7:04pm
I’d like to add that ammo size should always be restricted to a tennis ball diameter max.
Making ammo bigger than that isn’t overly practical in any real life slinging situation and it makes it a clear understandable size. Hitting a can with a tennis ball is easier than a small stone.  At least theoretically.

Standard baleric target should be used .
Some form of multiple shots system.

Basically Morphy’s ADI system but with a standardised target size and max ammo diameter 

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Nov 15th, 2021 at 12:05am
Personally I really like the ADI system. It allows you to do a fair comparison between slingers even if the targets and distances are different.  ADI has limitations though. 
If we did something like ADI but with fixed distances and a limited range of target sizes, that would be a nice start to a ranking system.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Archaic Arms on Nov 15th, 2021 at 6:00am

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Nov 15th, 2021 at 12:05am:
Personally I really like the ADI system. It allows you to do a fair comparison between slingers even if the targets and distances are different.  ADI has limitations though. 
If we did something like ADI but with fixed distances and a limited range of target sizes, that would be a nice start to a ranking system.

I've just gone and refreshed my memory with Morphy's work, and I'm a fool for not remembering/realising the groundwork has already been done. I really like what he's come up with.
All that's really needed is a standard target and distance. My target preference would be the Balearic 'diana' without the backboard (due to it's very awkward size). In my opinion the distance should also be greater than what they do in standard Balearic competitions, as higher velocity is then rewarded by a flatter trajectory (and thus greater hit-probability). My favourite distance is 50m, but that may be awkward for some people...

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Morphy on Nov 15th, 2021 at 6:14am
While Ive always been against restricting ammo I have to agree there would have to be some type of upper limit. The advantage of large ammo is too substantial to ignore.

Perhaps for official rankings we all agree to use the Balearic target since that is for better or for worse the accepted standard and then keep the option for informal comps to use what you have on hand. The score will still be valid across formal and informal regardless due to it being a ratio so you can still compare scores and have them be a valid reflection of skill although they wont count as "official" ranking unless its on the Balearic target? One good thing about this is it works for any distance. You are not limited to comparing scores from only 10, 20 or 30 meters. You will know by a simple number how good youre doing at any distance.

The question ive had for awhile now is what numbers would signify what ranking? That was the purpose of the Max Accuracy thread...to get enough scores to where the community could set a hard and fast number as "Master" "Journeyman" "Novice" etc.

If anyone has ideas by all means throw them out there as this is a group decision.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Archaic Arms on Nov 15th, 2021 at 8:27am

Mersa wrote on Nov 14th, 2021 at 7:04pm:
I’d like to add that ammo size should always be restricted to a tennis ball diameter max.
Making ammo bigger than that isn’t overly practical in any real life slinging situation and it makes it a clear understandable size. Hitting a can with a tennis ball is easier than a small stone.  At least theoretically.

Standard baleric target should be used .
Some form of multiple shots system.

Basically Morphy’s ADI system but with a standardised target size and max ammo diameter 


Glad to see you chime in! I agree with all of that.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by joe_meadmaker on Nov 16th, 2021 at 10:51pm
Ha!  Albion Slinger, I didn't even realize this was you.  I just saw your YouTube channel change.  I moved over to the new one.  Looking forward to see what you do with it.


But on topic, I also like the idea of an upper limit on projectile size.  I think tennis ball works well.  They're very readily used, and easy to stay under the size if someone prefers to use stones or something else.

On distances, I don't think there's any reason to start with long distances.  Especially if a 2 out of 10 hit ratio is still the goal.  I think starting at 10 meters is fine.  If it's easier for someone to "get their name on the board", it might encourage participation from beginners or slingers that aren't as accurate when it comes to target slinging.  And slingers who are more accurate can just climb the ranks faster.

Overall I like the diana as a target.  2 hits out of 10 to mark the distance as complete.  And 10 meter increments, starting at 10 meters.

There could then also be multiple tracks to advance.  Increasing distance could be one.  But some people may not have a place where they can throw at 50 meters.  A second track of advancement could be more target hits within 10 tries at shorter distances.  The ADI could be used to determine where the two tracks lined up with each other.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Jaegoor on Nov 17th, 2021 at 2:44am
I have to laugh a little.  I am considered a hardliner in this forum.  i was told i am asking too many rules.  now do just that to her. it's a little funny.  I have presented a ranking system here several times.  with a lot of explanation.  it works great.  so far nobody has tried it here.  or try a slinger run.  this also makes your ability visible.  you are talking about distances of 10m.  that's not even children's distance.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Morphy on Nov 17th, 2021 at 7:41am

joe_meadmaker wrote on Nov 16th, 2021 at 10:51pm:
Ha!  Albion Slinger, I didn't even realize this was you.  I just saw your YouTube channel change.  I moved over to the new one.  Looking forward to see what you do with it.


I had no idea either.  I was wondering what happened to you AS/AA. Glad you are still here.

I like the multiple tracks idea Joe. I also like 50 meters but if the idea is to get people using a ranking system there must be some compromise on distance I would think. As you said ADI should be able to easily judge the relative difficulty. I imagine with a little work we could even have a score modifier that would adjust ADI for distances above 25 to average everything out.

Jaegoor, you have had a system in place for awhile that works well. Please feel free to add your thoughts if you desire. I would like to see how your system compares. We all can learn from each other I would think.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Jaegoor on Nov 17th, 2021 at 8:13am
Ich habe es hier bereits öfter vorgestellt. Bei diesem System schießen sie auf eine Diane. Aus unterschiedlichen Distanzen. Wie im Kampfsport gibt es Farben . Aber keine Gürtel sondern T-Shirts. Es gibt gelb rot braun und schwarz

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Archaic Arms on Nov 17th, 2021 at 12:52pm
Hopefully I didn't make too many mistakes typing it in...

Computer translated:




Rule introduction for slingshots is approaching the provisions of living history
Distances and school grades for spinning


Examination process
An exam can only be taken for one day. There must be at least two witnesses who do not take part in the test: a line judge (red flag invalid throws, white valid throws), a point judge (Ariane)
Scoring on the Ariane
Distance - white - black
10 - 1 - 2
20 - 1 - 2
30 - 2 - 4
40 - 2 - 4
60 - 3 - 5

Table of values ​​for a pass (20 throws are a pass):
Distance - minimum value - maximum value
10 - 10 - 20
20 - 10 - 20
30 - 40 - 80
40 - 40 - 80
60 - 60 - 100

Table of values ​​run (5 shots are one run):
Distance - Minimum value - Maximum value
10 - 5 - 10
20 - 5 - 10
30 - 10 - 20
40 - 10 - 20
60 - 15 - 25

School grades:

Yellow:
Ball weight 150g, 1 pass, 20m 8 points

Red:
Ball weight 200g, 2 pass, 20m 10 points + 30m 20 points

Brown:
Stone 200-250g, 2 pass, 40m 28 points + 60m 36 points, 1 round, 5 throw at distance = 400m

Black:
Stone 200-250g, 2 pass, 40m 30 points + 60m 40 points, 1 round, 5 throw at distance = 500m
Sling_qualification_shirt_colours.png (469 KB | 8 )

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Jaegoor on Nov 17th, 2021 at 1:05pm
Gracias. Die Ballgewichte sind variable

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by IronGoober on Nov 17th, 2021 at 9:43pm
MikeG, any translation errors??

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by joe_meadmaker on Nov 17th, 2021 at 10:07pm

Jaegoor wrote on Nov 17th, 2021 at 2:44am:
you are talking about distances of 10m.  that's not even children's distance.

That was only a suggestion to make the system more inclusive to beginners or folks that don't do much target slinging.  I don't see anything wrong with someone practicing at 10m when they're just getting started.  And if that's not part of the target audience, then it doesn't need to be included.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Jaegoor on Nov 18th, 2021 at 1:20am
Von mir aus üben sie auf einen Meter . Oder fünf. Wenn ich es richtig verstehe, geht es um ein internationales System. Wenn sie noch nicht slingen können, dann müssen sie üben. Das ist ja wohl auch der Sinn hinter einem solchen System.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Kick on Nov 18th, 2021 at 4:55am
I think there is a slight difference in ideas. At least how I've understood it, there is a difference between ranking anyone that picks up a sling and then ranking "slingers", people that are actually wanting to progress and achieve certain feats. Morphy and Joe's idea of ranking system isn't really about what people should strive for and more a measurement of where someone is. Jaegoor's is more about reaching the next level, of improvement. I think both measurements work, but there might be a subtle difference in the aim of each.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by joe_meadmaker on Nov 18th, 2021 at 9:33am
I definitely understand your point Jaegoor.  But your description is right on the money, Kick.  I think we're talking about two different methodologies.

At the beginning of this topic there was an idea of someone getting a star for achieving a particular hit.  That made me think this was more of ladder of accomplishments rather than a dynamic ranking system.  That mindset just stuck with me.

As stated, I think either method can be used.  It's just about what's desired.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Morphy on Nov 18th, 2021 at 10:23am
Yeah just to be clear I have no problem with this system or any other. I actually think its quite a good idea.I think we can all learn from each other. There is no ulterior motive behind me mentioning the ADI except that perhaps it could be used in this situation to help understand where each rank should fall skill wise.

I really dont think this is an either/or scenario because the purposes behind the two dont entirely overlap. Well said Kick reading your post got me thinking perhaps my comments may have come off the wrong way.

ADI is first and foremost to judge the difficulty of a shot or a set of shots where distances and targets are different. With the number you get you can see how you are progressing regardless if one day you were slinging at soda cans or the next a Balearic target.

But those numbers have to be applied to something. Who decides how good Master rank is? Thats up to the ranking system not ADI. These are two different things that can work in tandem with each other.


Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Archaic Arms on Nov 18th, 2021 at 5:42pm

joe_meadmaker wrote on Nov 16th, 2021 at 10:51pm:
Ha!  Albion Slinger, I didn't even realize this was you.  I just saw your YouTube channel change.  I moved over to the new one.  Looking forward to see what you do with it.

Sorry, I should have mentioned it really...
I suppose I just hoped that people would realise it's me because I kept the same profile picture.

Thanks Joe!

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by joe_meadmaker on Nov 18th, 2021 at 7:25pm
It's all good man.  I think this forum occasionally has the member who doesn't post regularly, or who has been away for a while, and one day just jumps right back into the mix.  So if there's a username that isn't recognized, everyone just takes it in stride.  :)

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Hallofo on Nov 28th, 2021 at 1:37pm
Hi all,

New-to-slinging person here. I just wanted to chime in and express my support of this scoring/ranking system. As I begin my journey, I look forward to seeing how I improve and develop!

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Archaic Arms on Dec 1st, 2021 at 6:04am
Slightly more refined version of the one from the 'Max Accuracy' thread.

Target: 50cm round 'Diana'

League I            2/10 HITS, at 5M
League II          2/10 HITS, at 10M
League III         3/10 HITS, at 15M
League IV         4/10 HITS, at 20M
League V           5/10 HITS, at 25M
League VI         6/10 HITS, at 30M
League VII        7/10 HITS, at 35M
League VIII       8/10 HITS, at 40M
League IX         9/10 HITS, at 45M
League X         10/10 HITS, at 50M

If League X is achieved, then further leagues are possible...

League XI       10/10 HITS, at 60M
League XII      10/10 HITS, at 70M
League XIII     10/10 HITS, at 80M
...

- Ammo: Tennis ball size and under
- Must be uncut/unedited video + some proof of distance

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Morphy on Dec 1st, 2021 at 6:39am
Couple thoughts...

Theres been some concerns that its already so difficult to bring people in to competition. What about allowing tennis balls as a viable option for the first 5 levels? This would make it much easier for some to take part. Especially those stuck in urban areas.

Also, instead of going above 50 meters how about using smaller targets for above level 10? It could be as simple as a cut piece of cardboard, leather or rubber. 50 is a good distance for judging spin control but when you go much further it puts too much emphasis on power with accuracy which a target ranking system isnt really testing. I think it would definitely be a detriment towards women or really even anyone who doesnt practice at longer ranges.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Archaic Arms on Dec 1st, 2021 at 7:48am

Morphy wrote on Dec 1st, 2021 at 6:39am:
Couple thoughts...

Theres been some concerns that its already so difficult to bring people in to competition. What about allowing tennis balls as a viable option for the first 5 levels? This would make it much easier for some to take part. Especially those stuck in urban areas.

Also, instead of going above 50 meters how about using smaller targets for above level 10? It could be as simple as a cut piece of cardboard, leather or rubber. 50 is a good distance for judging spin control but when you go much further it puts too much emphasis on power with accuracy which a target ranking system isn't really testing. I think it would definitely be a detriment towards women or really even anyone who doesn't practice at longer ranges.

Thanks for the input. Yes you are probably right regarding the ammo, and it shouldn't be a problem anyway. (Adjusted the proposal accordingly)
Also changed level to league... It sounds a bit better to my ears, but let me know what you think.
Regarding the leagues above 10, I personally think it's more important to stretch the range, as both accuracy and power are important aspects of slinging. If it was a test purely for accuracy, the distance would stay the same, but you would have a target with concentric rings for scoring (like in archery).
Also, if your good enough to get past League X, you've probably dedicated your life to slinging (+ far and away the best in the world), and won't be bothered by the 'inconvenience' of finding a place that you can sling 10 or 20m further.
Just my tuppence.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Mersa on Dec 2nd, 2021 at 5:13am
Gave this a go today.
I only used tennis balls and was able to do first 3 levels/leagues in succession. I failed on my first attempt of level 4 with 3/10. Later in my practice I got it but 25m I wasn’t having any luck.

I like it as a training tool was nice pacing out distances.

Definitely going to be favoured to heavier rocks at distance. Ammo choice is key for this.

Obviously cherry picking a perfect day is also part of it.

I do like the succession approach. Makes for a fun game .  Could be played with others .
But again it just becomes a baleric target session at 20-30m.

Like a lot of slinging games or trickshots the ease of the setup and location play a big role in my enjoyment. If I had a good range with lots of decent ammo I’d be more inclined to try it but for now I’m pretty happy with what I did and it fell around where I thought I would. 


Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Archaic Arms on Dec 2nd, 2021 at 6:18am

Mersa wrote on Dec 2nd, 2021 at 5:13am:
Gave this a go today.
I only used tennis balls and was able to do first 3 levels/leagues in succession. I failed on my first attempt of level 4 with 3/10. Later in my practice I got it but 25m I wasn’t having any luck.

I like it as a training tool was nice pacing out distances.

Definitely going to be favoured to heavier rocks at distance. Ammo choice is key for this.

Obviously cherry picking a perfect day is also part of it.

I do like the succession approach. Makes for a fun game .  Could be played with others .
But again it just becomes a balaric target session at 20-30m.

Like a lot of slinging games or trickshots the ease of the setup and location play a big role in my enjoyment. If I had a good range with lots of decent ammo I’d be more inclined to try it but for now I’m pretty happy with what I did and it fell around where I thought I would. 

Great to hear you gave it a go!
The reason I actually like the cherry-picking aspect is that it shows one's skill at peak of performance. It's also the only realistic way someone could achieve something like League X. 
I share your sentiment exactly with ease of setup and location. Cutting out the Balearic quatro and making the diana the target was a part of this. Unless you have a large wall, or you've made a Balearic target, it's not easy. (both of which aren't very portable)

I'm very glad you gave it a try and had some fun with it, tennisballs have limited range, so it's good, considering! 

Cheers for the feedback!

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Morphy on Dec 2nd, 2021 at 8:52am
Awesome Mersa! I have no doubt you could get to Level 5 at least on a good day already. Shoot maybe level 6. Thats only 60%.

Been waiting for my elbow to heal for awhile now. Making big gains recently so cant chance it but as soon as its safe Ill give this and the virtual comp a shot.

So AA now comes a difficult question I think...

How do we verify if someone has actually done it? Honor system would be great but we know eventually if this does catch on theres going to be big issues with that. The first time someone claims a very high level without proof (especially if they are an unknown or known to not be at that level in real world slinging)  its going to fracture the group taking part and make them take the system less seriously over all. Theres nothing worse than struggling for something for months or years legitimately only to watch someone cheat their way to it out of no where.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by IronGoober on Dec 2nd, 2021 at 12:13pm

Morphy wrote on Dec 2nd, 2021 at 8:52am:
How do we verify if someone has actually done it?


It was suggested that video proof is one way. I like this idea.

We could have a sticky thread with a link to everyone's best entries.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Archaic Arms on Dec 2nd, 2021 at 3:44pm

Morphy wrote on Dec 2nd, 2021 at 8:52am:
How do we verify if someone has actually done it? Honor system would be great but we know eventually if this does catch on theres going to be big issues with that. The first time someone claims a very high level without proof (especially if they are an unknown or known to not be at that level in real world slinging)  its going to fracture the group taking part and make them take the system less seriously over all. Theres nothing worse than struggling for something for months or years legitimately only to watch someone cheat their way to it out of no where.

As IronGoober touched on, I think the way around this is with uncut video of the 10 shot sequence, and then some proof of the distance. (like filming the measuring)
If we want it to be sophisticated, we could have a small panel to review submissions and add them to an official list.
Then through them, the contestants can purchase a patch or shirt with it on  ;D
Let's see if the notion gets any traction first...

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Morphy on Dec 2nd, 2021 at 7:27pm
My bad guys must have missed that.  ;)

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by joe_meadmaker on Dec 2nd, 2021 at 9:16pm
Good stuff Mersa.  I might not get a good run at this until next year.  We've reach December, and now it just seems to be lousy weather every day.  It was snowing, then it turned to rain, and today the wind was just blowing like crazy.  I'm hoping tomorrow will be good enough for me to get out and record an entry for the virtual competition.  If it's as bad as it's been, I might miss this week.

Question on the ranking system, for no one in particular.  Does anyone think that 10 out of 10 at a distance of 50m is a realistically achievable goal?  I certainly know it isn't for me.  And that's fine.  I'm very much not the best slinger in the world, and never will be.  But I'm also not sure if it is even for the best slingers.  I've seen videos of truly amazing slingers at the tournaments, and I haven't seen anyone hit 5 dianas at 20m (or rather I don't recall seeing it).  Not meaning to say it never happened, just that it's certainly in the 'rare occurrence' category.

Just curious if there's an "I think I could do it" or "I think ~insert name~ could do it" out there.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Mersa on Dec 3rd, 2021 at 3:48am
I don’t believe there’s a single slinger that shows any type of video footage out there that could walk outside and do it with the first 10 shots.
I do think it’s possible but it’s one of those shots or may I say lots of shots that in reality needs a lot of  practice at that distance and consistent ammo and form.
To have someone who can truely hit 100% at that distance like every single time ever attempted is probably unrealistic but someone close to could be possible but I don’t think it’s any of us. I feel a slinger like that would be a true slinger and only a slinger. 

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Morphy on Dec 3rd, 2021 at 10:24am
At my best, long long ago I couldve given you a 5/5 at 35 meters on a very good run. Thats a long, long ways from 10/10 at 50. I can say for sure Ive never been close to that good.

10/10 at 50 meters would be extraordinary.  To answer your question Joe...I have no earthly idea if its possible. What I do know though is that virtually every sport thats been around for over say 100 years going from what Ill call the traditional era to the modern, scientific era shows massive gains in virtually every aspect of that sport. And this is often times mostly a matter of better form and training.

So personally I dont mind having a very high goal. I think even a 5/5 at 50 would be sufficient personally but whatever the consensus is I would be fine with.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Archaic Arms on Dec 3rd, 2021 at 6:16pm

joe_meadmaker wrote on Dec 2nd, 2021 at 9:16pm:
Just curious if there's an "I think I could do it" or "I think ~insert name~ could do it" out there.

I used to do a lot of 50m practice at my old place, and when I was at my very best, I was getting them with a few feet of the olive oil tin quite consistently with the 18" sling. I've improved significantly since then, so maybe one day with the perfect sling, projectiles, and cherry-picking the sequence...
I have faith. (bold as it may seem)

No doubt the children Jaegoor is training will make us all look talentless when they grow up...  ;D

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Mersa on Dec 3rd, 2021 at 7:44pm
5/5 at all distances is a perfect round and could be a better approach then your levels are just distance

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Morphy on Dec 4th, 2021 at 11:20am
Now that weve fleshed out a pretty solid system maybe we should take a vote? The more I think about it the more I like the 5/5 on all distances. Ive always felt the best way to make something the communities is to have the community accept it as a whole. As such it would seem a vote may be beneficial. Let me know what you all think.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Sarosh on Dec 4th, 2021 at 12:47pm
have you thought 2 dimensional ranking ?
league (or level) is the distance
class is the hits/10
so league 40 class 1 means 40m 1/10

you could also add a 3rd dimension to include target sizes
e.g. league 100, class 10, elephant ::)
100m
10/10
elephant sized target

I don't see the reason for ranking other than the challenge
have fun!
Untitledsjjs.png (10 KB | 3 )

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by joe_meadmaker on Dec 4th, 2021 at 12:59pm
That's good thought Sarosh.  A similar idea came up previously.  There was a thought about having multiple tracks.  But you definitely have the idea more fleshed out.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Archaic Arms on Dec 4th, 2021 at 4:07pm
Ok, so combining several of the ideas put forward...

*=1/5 HITS (with cherry picking, one star is not meaningful)
**=2/5 HITS
***=3/5 HITS
****=4/5 HITS
*****=5/5 HITS

League I = 10m
League II = 20m
League III = 30m
League IV = 40m
League V = 50m
...
Etc.


Then put them together to form the rank.
For example, 3/5 hits at 60m would be League VI ***
In order to advance to the next league, you have to get the full five stars in your current league first. (This makes high leagues with a small number of stars at least as impressive as the former league with 5 stars)
By adding an extra dimension, everybody should still be able to achieve something. Just improving enough to get an extra hit out of 5, will reward you with another star on your rank.

Other rules like ammo size would also carry over.

Thoughts?

(Thanks for input everyone!)

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by IronGoober on Dec 4th, 2021 at 7:24pm
I actually like the idea a lot.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Morphy on Dec 5th, 2021 at 6:54am

Archaic Arms wrote on Dec 4th, 2021 at 4:07pm:
Ok, so combining several of the ideas put forward...

*=1/5 HITS (with cherry picking, one star is not meaningful)
**=2/5 HITS
***=3/5 HITS
****=4/5 HITS
*****=5/5 HITS

League I = 10m
League II = 20m
League III = 30m
League IV = 40m
League V = 50m
...
Etc.


Then put them together to form the rank.
For example, 3/5 hits at 60m would be League VI ***
In order to advance to the next league, you have to get the full five stars in your current league first. (This makes high leagues with a small number of stars at least as impressive as the former league with 5 stars)
By adding an extra dimension, everybody should still be able to achieve something. Just improving enough to get an extra hit out of 5, will reward you with another star on your rank.

Other rules like ammo size would also carry over.

Thoughts?

(Thanks for input everyone!)


Voting aside I think thats a winner.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Curious Aardvark on Dec 5th, 2021 at 11:35am

Hitting a 50cm target at 50metres is tough.

I've done it, but I'd say that out of 100 shots I doubt I got more than 1 or 2 headshots in.

You'd have to check my stats in the book.
Hmm, can't find it on amazon anymore - annoying.
https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1468418037/5#5

I'll have to find my copy.

I suppose the league number works as a multiplier for the star system.

I like it :-)

Althugh I think you should use 10 shots.
once you get beyond 30 metres, the chances of getting 5 hits in 5 shots is pretty unlikely.

5 hits from 10 shots, is unlikely, but more possible.

And anyone who can get 5 hits at 50 metres out of ten shots - should just get a free t-shirt and plaque.
That's tough.

I have target slung out to 70 metres quite succesfully with a pretty flat trajectory.
But beyond that, I just can't see where the missile is going and at that point you lose the ability to adjust between shots.

If you can see where your missile is going, you can hit a target. If you can't see where the missile lands - and your spotter is rubbish :whistle: - then it's just blind luck if you hit anything.

The ultimate difficulty is to throw hard and accurate at distance.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Kick on Dec 5th, 2021 at 12:53pm

Morphy wrote on Dec 5th, 2021 at 6:54am:

Archaic Arms wrote on Dec 4th, 2021 at 4:07pm:
Ok, so combining several of the ideas put forward...

*=1/5 HITS (with cherry picking, one star is not meaningful)
**=2/5 HITS
***=3/5 HITS
****=4/5 HITS
*****=5/5 HITS

League I = 10m
League II = 20m
League III = 30m
League IV = 40m
League V = 50m
...
Etc.


Then put them together to form the rank.
For example, 3/5 hits at 60m would be League VI ***
In order to advance to the next league, you have to get the full five stars in your current league first. (This makes high leagues with a small number of stars at least as impressive as the former league with 5 stars)
By adding an extra dimension, everybody should still be able to achieve something. Just improving enough to get an extra hit out of 5, will reward you with another star on your rank.

Other rules like ammo size would also carry over.

Thoughts?

(Thanks for input everyone!)


Voting aside I think thats a winner.


I like this. It has a high difficulty, but I don't think we need to have the top level achievable for all. Even if the top is a Herculean achievement, well then it can be saved for Hercules :D

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Curious Aardvark on Dec 6th, 2021 at 6:51am
Ammo size rules ?
Why would you need any rules for ammo ?

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Archaic Arms on Dec 6th, 2021 at 10:49am

Curious Aardvark wrote on Dec 6th, 2021 at 6:51am:
Ammo size rules ?
Why would you need any rules for ammo ?

A problem arises when someone makes a sling to throw something like footballs, and gains an advantage in hit-probability.
There will be a list of rules to cover potential cheaty loop-holes.  :)

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Archaic Arms on Dec 6th, 2021 at 10:59am
Ok so do we have a consensus for the system?
Any more suggestions, ideas, or concerns?

I think next step would be to sticky a new thread with the refined addition, and get the ball rolling... or flying for that matter. ;)

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Morphy on Dec 6th, 2021 at 3:16pm
No concerns. This thread and the next will both be ending up in the hall of fame I would guess. Thanks for all your work on it. Been wanting to see a ranking system for ages.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by joe_meadmaker on Dec 6th, 2021 at 9:41pm
I like it overall.  I get CA's point.  I think it would also work well if a league increase was achieved after 5/10 at a particular level.  But there can always be experimentation.  It doesn't need to be perfect right out of the gate.  We could set the rules, do it for a year or so, then revisit and see if any tweaks are needed.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by IronGoober on Dec 7th, 2021 at 1:15am

joe_meadmaker wrote on Dec 6th, 2021 at 9:41pm:
I think it would also work well if a league increase was achieved after 5/10 at a particular level.

I had this exact same thought. Otherwise, there are a lot of us that are going to be stuck at 10 or 20m for quite a long time.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Sarosh on Dec 7th, 2021 at 5:43am

joe_meadmaker wrote on Dec 6th, 2021 at 9:41pm:
I think it would also work well if a league increase was achieved after 5/10 at a particular level.

I have a couple of different ideas on this.

1)stars are consecutive hits so there is no limits to how many stars one might have at any league and there is no limit to how many times you try as long as the hits are consecutive.it will be faster/easier to review videos but you might not like it because one might have missed 300 times to get 2 consecutive shots. I don't think it is that bad

2)everyone is allowed max 5 misses for the score to count, each hit gives you a star, as long as you dont miss more than 5 times there is no limit to how many stars you get. above ***** we can use a number.

3)to advance to the next league you need 2 consecutive hits.
I don't think it is good to get stuck at a given range I think 2 hits is half score but it's a passing grade :P

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Mersa on Dec 7th, 2021 at 10:53pm
I think that 5/5 is the way to go .
Works well for training, and it’s not impossible.
Most slingers will cruise past 10 m
And at 20 we’re basically doing a baleric round.
After that it will get much harder but isn’t that the point.

Otherwise if it’s 5/10 throws we May as well use a baleric target and justuse normal scoring toshow skill 5 Diana’s with no Quattro isn’t as good as5 and 5

5 throws is the best and will ween out any serious cherry picking but allow enough to make sense   

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Archaic Arms on Dec 8th, 2021 at 7:39am
By having no limit to the number of stars (thanks Sarosh!), it would allow people to chose their own preferred distance (which I think is a great thing actually).
This should satisfy those that like practicing at long or short ranges, and should also distinguish the experience from Balearic competitions.

So if you want to jump straight to League V, you can.
If you want to stick to League I, you can.
The ranking is in the number of stars (consecutive hits) in that given league.
I'm really growing on this idea because it prevents you from getting stuck at a given distance, and should keep things fresh. It also means every League becomes it's own little competition i.e the person with #1 spot in League III might not hold #1 spot in League I. etc.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Curious Aardvark on Dec 8th, 2021 at 11:37am

Archaic Arms wrote on Dec 6th, 2021 at 10:49am:

Curious Aardvark wrote on Dec 6th, 2021 at 6:51am:
Ammo size rules ?
Why would you need any rules for ammo ?

A problem arises when someone makes a sling to throw something like footballs, and gains an advantage in hit-probability.
There will be a list of rules to cover potential cheaty loop-holes.  :)

Where's the problem ?
Larger ammo comes with its own problems that easily counteract any perceived benefits.
Extra weight, wind resistance, awkwardness etc.
If you're worried about footballs - have you ever tried to sling one ? - then just have a 'no bounce' rule.
Target must be hit without the ammo touching the ground.

Likewise really tiny ammo has its own self limiting issues.

There is a reason most people end up somewhere in the middle and it definitely doesn't need regulation.

You don't need rules for ammo or slings, thats just having rules because you like making rules.

And if someone hits on a particular ammo that makes them more accurate, then we can all switch to it.

That way we're constantly learning and expanding slinging knowledge, rather than making unnecessary rules to limit it.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Archaic Arms on Dec 8th, 2021 at 12:08pm

Curious Aardvark wrote on Dec 8th, 2021 at 11:37am:
Where's the problem ?

Your right, upon reflection I think it was just a legacy from the previous ranking ideas that used a coin as a target (where it would make a difference). Since we are now using the 50cm Diana, it's no longer relevant. 

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Mersa on Dec 8th, 2021 at 5:14pm
This is turning into a game with a weird scoring system more than a ranking system.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Archaic Arms on Dec 9th, 2021 at 5:44am
The question is, do we want one #1 spot (overall) or do we want #1 spots for each League?
The former is one ladder, the latter is several ladders.
Both have pros and cons.

The first one will clearly discriminate the best overall, but it means that a lot of people will potentially get stuck at a particular distance.
The latter idea makes the best overall slinger a bit more vague, but is more flexible and allows people of all skill levels to compete at different distances, as well as being better for those who are range restricted.
One more thing - If you are the best all-round slinger, then there's nothing stopping you from being #1 in every league.

I'm very interested to hear people's thoughts about this...



Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Archaic Arms on Dec 9th, 2021 at 5:56am

Mersa wrote on Dec 8th, 2021 at 5:14pm:
This is turning into a game with a weird scoring system more than a ranking system.

The way I see it, it's like a race in track and field, with each distance being it's own competition. 100m, 200m, 400m, etc.
It's still a ranking system, but it's less focused on one individual.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Curious Aardvark on Dec 9th, 2021 at 11:06am

Quote:
This is turning into a game with a weird scoring system more than a ranking system.

same thing, surely ?

Now one thing that can effect people's scores is the height the target is mounted.

Particularly at distance.

It's relatively easy to hit a ground level target at distance with a lob.
The same target at head height is a lot harder to hit and requires a much more powerful throw. 

So a fixed height would be a good idea.


Quote:
50 or so yards seems to be the point where the coin starts to become difficult to see,

Okay now that really made me laugh.
seriously, even with my glasses on I'd struggle to see a 10 pence at 10 yards, let alone stand any chance of hitting it with a sling missile :-)

I don't mind a bit of bias in the system, but give us poor old and broken buggers a chance :whistle:

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by joe_meadmaker on Dec 10th, 2021 at 8:38am
I've been thinking about this and have a thought.  It's really just a small adjustment of what's already been discussed.

The ranking system works off a set of 10 throws.  Five confirmed hits are required to move to the next level (league).  A slinger is also free to keep working at a particular level if they want to achieve 10/10 perfection.  The set of 10 can be cherry-picked from a larger set as discussed earlier.

A slinger's ranking will be a 2 digit number (could be 3, but I don't think anyone will get that high).  The first digit is the current distance.  A '1' for 10m, '2' for 20m, etc.  The second digit is the number of hits. at the distance.

A few examples to demonstrate:
A rank of 32 will mean the slinger has two target hits at 30 meters.
A rank of 25 will mean the slinger has five hits at 20 meters.  At this point they can move to 30 meters, or continue working at 20m for a better score at that level.
A rank of 28 will mean the slinger has opted to continue working at 20m, and has eight hits.  They can also move to 30 at any time.

If a slinger does get a perfect 10/10 at any level, they will automatically have a ranking for the next distance.  So if someone gets 10/10 at 10 meters, their ranking will be 20.

I think the advantages of this method are things are based off an easy to interpret 2-digit number.  It also allows two paths if someone wants to chase perfection vs. just advancing to the next level.  A slinger's rank will also increase with each additional hit, so there's immediate feedback to feel good about.  :)

On the topic of video evidence, I think we'll be safe in trusting what someone tells us within a particular level.  But video will be needed for level advancement.  So if I'm just starting out, I can tell everyone that my best was 4 hits at 10m.  And my rank is 14 without video (I can provide video for fun and entertainment, but it's not required).  If I get 5 hits at 10. and want to move on to 20m, I must provide video confirmation.

Let me know if anything in that explanation isn't clear.

Thoughts?

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Morphy on Dec 10th, 2021 at 4:15pm
I think something like this could work if its fleshed out a little more. With the current system as you laid it out Joe a slinger with a rank of 39 would be 100 times more skilled than a slinger with a rank of 42.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by joe_meadmaker on Dec 10th, 2021 at 6:57pm
You have a point.  But I think that becomes very difficult to account for.  If any (or even all) of those 9 hits are closer to the edge, it's likely they wouldn't have been hits at 40m.

On a side note, probably something for the Maths board, I wonder what the effective diana size at 30m would be to represent a target at 40m. It still wouldn't be a perfect representation, because with more distance the release angle will need to change.  But I'm curious.

Back on topic, I don't know if a simple system will be able to combine different path intentions (such as climbing a rank ladder vs. getting a perfect score at every level), and judge them fairly against each other (unless of course a perfect score is required at each level).  A more complex method of determine a rank very well could.  But I think that could make getting participation more difficult.  In the system I described, you're right that they don't really line up.  The intent was moreso to allow for both aspects since each one seems to have support in the discussion.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Morphy on Dec 10th, 2021 at 7:23pm
I dont mean to sound dismissive. Hopefully theres a way to make it work.

I hesitate to even bring this up as it seems to bring us right back to the beginning but this problem would be solved with the ADI system.

You could simply use ADI to calculate where 4x would have to be to line up with 39. I like the idea a lot. I think it could be fleshed out.

To be quite honest I feel like much better minds than my own have begun to hash out a ranking system or maybe even if there should be one. So ive pulled back a bit. My part in this all was the ADI.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by joe_meadmaker on Dec 10th, 2021 at 7:38pm

Morphy wrote on Dec 10th, 2021 at 7:23pm:
I dont mean to sound dismissive.

Not taken that way at all my man.

If something completely different comes out at the end, that's totally cool.  I was just trying to think of something very simple, that could be used by a beginner as well as an experienced slinger.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Mersa on Dec 10th, 2021 at 8:57pm
How about we just use the baleric target,
Score normally and write down our distances.
We could actually backdate channings competition and start handling out ranks .

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by joe_meadmaker on Dec 10th, 2021 at 10:15pm
How do you see the actual ranking working Mersa?  A predefined set goals to achieve, or just do whatever and we'll use a method to determine a "ranking" based on your distance and score?

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by IronGoober on Dec 10th, 2021 at 11:15pm
I think this still is the simplest. Have to get 5 hits to move on to the next rank. We may all get stuck at one rank, but...

*=1/5 HITS (with cherry picking, one star is not meaningful)
**=2/5 HITS
***=3/5 HITS
****=4/5 HITS
*****=5/5 HITS

League I = 10m
League II = 20m
League III = 30m
League IV = 40m
League V = 50m

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Archaic Arms on Dec 11th, 2021 at 5:20am

IronGoober wrote on Dec 10th, 2021 at 11:15pm:
I think this still is the simplest. Have to get 5 hits to move on to the next rank. We may all get stuck at one rank, but...

*=1/5 HITS (with cherry picking, one star is not meaningful)
**=2/5 HITS
***=3/5 HITS
****=4/5 HITS
*****=5/5 HITS

League I = 10m
League II = 20m
League III = 30m
League IV = 40m
League V = 50m

What do you think about the idea of having an unlimited number of stars for each League?
The stars would instead represent consecutive hits.

It makes the system like track and field races, where people compete for 100m, 200m, 400m, etc. and each specific distance is its own little competition.
I think this adjustment to the system makes it less restrictive and more accommodating to ranges people have access to.
With the other system, If you are in an urban area and you only had 10m to sling, you couldn't rise above League I, but this adjusted system would give them the opportunity to score endlessly high at that distance, and become king of the League I hill. Also, for those that prefer longer ranges like 50m, (and have access to them) this system would allow them to compete at those distances.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Morphy on Dec 11th, 2021 at 6:32am

Archaic Arms wrote on Dec 11th, 2021 at 5:20am:

IronGoober wrote on Dec 10th, 2021 at 11:15pm:
I think this still is the simplest. Have to get 5 hits to move on to the next rank. We may all get stuck at one rank, but...

*=1/5 HITS (with cherry picking, one star is not meaningful)
**=2/5 HITS
***=3/5 HITS
****=4/5 HITS
*****=5/5 HITS

League I = 10m
League II = 20m
League III = 30m
League IV = 40m
League V = 50m

What do you think about the idea of having an unlimited number of stars for each League?
The stars would instead represent consecutive hits.

It makes the system like track and field races, where people compete for 100m, 200m, 400m, etc. and each specific distance is its own little competition.
I think this adjustment to the system makes it less restrictive and more accommodating to ranges people have access to.
With the other system, If you are in an urban area and you only had 10m to sling, you couldn't rise above League I, but this other system would give them the opportunity to score endlessly high at that distance, and become king of the League I hill. Also, for those that prefer longer ranges like 50m, (and have access to them) this system would allow them to compete at those distances.


+1

Theoretically enough consecutive hits at 20 would equal 5/5 at 50m. Thus solving the urban issue.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Mersa on Dec 11th, 2021 at 8:18pm
Like I said before I think the biggest problem is people actually participating.
This makes it less likely to have anytype of leaderboard.
More divisions and options means less people at each league and then In my view less participation.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Curious Aardvark on Dec 13th, 2021 at 3:18pm

Morphy wrote on Dec 10th, 2021 at 7:23pm:
My part in this all was the ADI.

what is ADI ?

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Morphy on Dec 13th, 2021 at 5:32pm

Curious Aardvark wrote on Dec 13th, 2021 at 3:18pm:

Morphy wrote on Dec 10th, 2021 at 7:23pm:
My part in this all was the ADI.

what is ADI ?


Its a system that gives your skill level for any series of shots so long as those shots are all at the same distance on the same target. The target can change and the distance can change from one session to the next and you will get a score that will be able to judge across all targets/distances and still be a good approximation of skill level regardless of the target.

Theres a fairly long thread on page one of the main slinging forum called Max scoring accuracy or some such that covers it.

Title: Re: New Ranking System
Post by Archaic Arms on Dec 18th, 2021 at 8:49am
Another idea...

# of stars represents number of consecutive hits
(no maximum number)

Short Range - 20m

Medium Range - 40m

Long Range - 60m

For example,
MR 1* = 2 hits in a row at 40m
SR 7* = 8 hits in a row at 20m
LR 4* = 5 hits in a row at 60m

Ideally,
I think Short Range should be 30m, Medium Range 60m, and Long Range 90m, but there would probably have to be adjustments to the target or scoring system to compensate for the increased difficulty.

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