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General >> Other Primitive Weapons >> Lars Anderson on Comanche Archery
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Message started by Archaic Arms on Oct 3rd, 2021 at 6:21am

Title: Lars Anderson on Comanche Archery
Post by Archaic Arms on Oct 3rd, 2021 at 6:21am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liHlCRpS70k
An interesting watch.

Title: Re: Lars Anderson on Comanche Archery
Post by walter on Oct 3rd, 2021 at 11:35am
Good vid. Thanks for the  link :)

Title: Re: Lars Anderson on Comanche Archery
Post by J on Oct 5th, 2021 at 3:18pm
I see a lot of resemblance with slinging, with all those different styles of casting an arrow and ways of gripping the bow and arrow
Surprised that the comance managed to keep that much territory that far in time

Title: Re: Lars Anderson on Comanche Archery
Post by Morphy on Oct 6th, 2021 at 10:36am
So much of what he professes probably breaks down quickly when using war bows. His speed would not be that impressive if shooting heavy bows and heavy bows is what wouldve been used for war.

As for this specifically who knows...I do know exactly how plains indian bows perform having made my fair share and shooting an arrow 100 yards and hitting a target is nothing more than luck using one of those.  Hell it would be mostly luck with a compound bow. They werent made to shoot far. They are actually extremely inefficient but excellent for charging next to a buffalo and shooting it point blank.

Ive heard of the reload speed of plains indians. I think its possible to have high reload speed but you are going to sacrifice a lot of power and accuracy so its definitely not the only thing to look into.

Sorry Lars Anderson is definitely a controversial figure if youve been in the community for any length of time.


This is Capt. Party Pooper signing out.  ;)

EDIT: Heres what it looks like pulling a war bow of legit battle weight from back in the day. You aint shooting 3 shots with one of these like Lars does. Neither is he for that matter.  ;)

https://youtube.com/shorts/1k9p9ChbomI?feature=share

Title: Re: Lars Anderson on Comanche Archery
Post by Sarosh on Oct 6th, 2021 at 12:52pm
I was thinking if he can choose which eyelid to hit maybe he can get away with lower power bows

Title: Re: Lars Anderson on Comanche Archery
Post by J on Oct 6th, 2021 at 1:24pm
I don't think the Comanche were a uniform army or fought in that style, like the past armies of Europe and Asia that utilized such heavy warbows, meant to be used in ranks of organized foot archers. Neither do I think that the American troops or cowboys during this time wore armor anymore. So I think 40-50 pound bows is sufficient for that era and a guerilla type of battle.

Title: Re: Lars Anderson on Comanche Archery
Post by Morphy on Oct 7th, 2021 at 12:22am
The comanche as with many plains Indians used the style best suited for their weapon choice. They were horse archers with inefficient bows so their tactic was charging at the enemy, hope you all dont die after the first volley and then pin cushion the settlers with multiple arrows each. Thats a hell of a tactic but it worked for years.

My skepticism on Lars Anderson is not all based on this video. But since the video references his previous "triumphs" its fair game pointing out they are largely nonsense in real world condtions.

Actually this particular video is much more believable in some sense. Some of the things are obviously wrong and not just wrong but so wrong that anyone whos picked up a bow and shot it would instantly question such claims. Such as the 100 yard shots that seemed to be referenced in quotes from the day. Dont even bother referencing it if it cant be true.

But the fast shooting is probably on point. The accuracy im going to make a reasonable guess and say is mostly BS. Those types of bows are simply not very accurate even standing still shooting a still target. Throw in adrenaline and bouncing horses and their success was probably largely to do with fast reload speed and extreme mobility as opposed to the weapon itself. This is just me nitpicking but eh... I have to nitpick this guy.

Title: Re: Lars Anderson on Comanche Archery
Post by joe_meadmaker on Oct 7th, 2021 at 2:54pm
I do enjoy Lars' videos.  He's definitely got tons of skill at what he does.  Although I don't know how much this would translate into actual battle.  Target shooting is one thing, but there are many other factors to consider.  Morphy named several concerning the chaos that could possibly be going on, but it's also going to be very different when your target is trying to kill you too.  That pinpoint hit may not be as achievable anymore.

On the speed shooting, I think it's super cool to watch.  But in practice I think it would just be a good way to use up all your arrows in a very short amount of time.  The idea of putting 5 arrows in the air at once is definitely an amazing feat.  But in battle, if your aim is off, you've just wasted 5 arrows.  And if your first one hits the mark, you've just wasted every other arrow behind it.  I suppose it could be used to put a large volume in the air at once.

Just as a side note, in his videos I do wish Lars gave the draw weight of his bows.  Specifically the weight at that very short draw he uses.

Title: Re: Lars Anderson on Comanche Archery
Post by joe_meadmaker on Oct 7th, 2021 at 7:16pm
Ha!  This popped up in my recommended.  Video from the guy who made the bow for Lars.

https://youtu.be/AMWOUCuZ-kQ

Title: Re: Lars Anderson on Comanche Archery
Post by walter on Oct 7th, 2021 at 9:02pm
That is some instinctive shooting. Love it!

Title: Re: Lars Anderson on Comanche Archery
Post by Sarosh on Oct 8th, 2021 at 4:49am

joe_meadmaker wrote on Oct 7th, 2021 at 7:16pm:
Ha!  This popped up in my recommended.  Video from the guy who made the bow for Lars.

https://youtu.be/AMWOUCuZ-kQ

nice!
did they use pinch draw? if yes can they go heavy with that?

Title: Re: Lars Anderson on Comanche Archery
Post by joe_meadmaker on Oct 8th, 2021 at 8:27am
I don't remember him mentioning a pinch draw in the video.  But I'm with you on that.  I think 45 lb could be a bit tough that grip.  He may also just not be using a full draw.

I looked through it again and in some places it looks like he is, but it's hard to tell.  At the end of the video he said instructional videos will be coming, so I would assume that's something he's going to cover.  It should be interesting.

Title: Re: Lars Anderson on Comanche Archery
Post by Kick on Oct 8th, 2021 at 11:11am

joe_meadmaker wrote on Oct 7th, 2021 at 7:16pm:
Ha!  This popped up in my recommended.  Video from the guy who made the bow for Lars.

https://youtu.be/AMWOUCuZ-kQ

I really like the idea of mixing it up with being on the move and multiple targets. Maybe the same should be tried with slinging... Might need more of a sleek speed shooting sling but I think this could be done. Hmmm...

Title: Re: Lars Anderson on Comanche Archery
Post by joe_meadmaker on Oct 8th, 2021 at 4:58pm

Kick wrote on Oct 8th, 2021 at 11:11am:
I really like the idea of mixing it up with being on the move and multiple targets. Maybe the same should be tried with slinging... Might need more of a sleek speed shooting sling but I think this could be done. Hmmm...

You and I are of the same mind.  8-)

Title: Re: Lars Anderson on Comanche Archery
Post by Morphy on Oct 8th, 2021 at 6:13pm

Sarosh wrote on Oct 8th, 2021 at 4:49am:

joe_meadmaker wrote on Oct 7th, 2021 at 7:16pm:
Ha!  This popped up in my recommended.  Video from the guy who made the bow for Lars.

https://youtu.be/AMWOUCuZ-kQ

nice!
did they use pinch draw? if yes can they go heavy with that?


With a true pinch draw even with bulbed or grooved nocks you will struggle to get more than 45 or so pounds.

Many of these bows if pulled to full draw for the design could pull as much as 80 pounds but that wouldve been impossible to do. So it was pinch and pull until the weight of the pull naturally pulled it free of the fingers.

This is a degree of instinctive shooting thats tough to imagine for even modern day instictive shooters but given that their main weapon was the horse combined with the bow and their hunting style naturally reflected riding up along side the animal it was natural to do the same in battle. In this sense you dont really need great long range accuracy. You need extreme mobility and really fast shooting and reloading at targets that are quite close. Both power, range and accuracy take a back seat.

Its really an effective but seemingly illogical tool set in terms of fighting tactics.

Title: Re: Lars Anderson on Comanche Archery
Post by Archaic Arms on Oct 9th, 2021 at 5:29am

Morphy wrote on Oct 6th, 2021 at 10:36am:
EDIT: Heres what it looks like pulling a war bow of legit battle weight from back in the day. You aint shooting 3 shots with one of these like Lars does. Neither is he for that matter. 

https://youtube.com/shorts/1k9p9ChbomI?feature=share

I remember watching a video of lars rapid shooting with a ~60lb bow, and while things slowed down a little, it was still very fast. I see the application for rapid shooting lighter bows in horseback archery (which is predominantly close range-stuff), and the heavy war bows for ground-based work at longer distances. It would be interesting to compare energies of a 60lb bow at 60ft, and 145lb 'war bow' at 600ft.

Title: Re: Lars Anderson on Comanche Archery
Post by Morphy on Oct 9th, 2021 at 9:30am

Archaic Arms wrote on Oct 9th, 2021 at 5:29am:

Morphy wrote on Oct 6th, 2021 at 10:36am:
EDIT: Heres what it looks like pulling a war bow of legit battle weight from back in the day. You aint shooting 3 shots with one of these like Lars does. Neither is he for that matter. 

https://youtube.com/shorts/1k9p9ChbomI?feature=share

I remember watching a video of lars rapid shooting with a ~60lb bow, and while things slowed down a little, it was still very fast. I see the application for rapid shooting lighter bows in horseback archery (which is predominantly close range-stuff), and the heavy war bows for ground-based work at longer distances. It would be interesting to compare energies of a 60lb bow at 60ft, and 145lb 'war bow' at 600ft.


Do you have a link for that? Im wondering if hes doing full draws and hitting anchors. But yea, if that’s the case then it’s impressive. I think actually the types of bows the plains Indians used for their style of combat were probably close to ideal.

Imagine youre in a group of settlers. You do your first volley, kill maybe 25% of the charge and now you have a couple dozen famously fierce warriors riding around you on horses at 25 ft/ 8 meters or less shooting arrows at you. That’s how I imagine they did things. Thinking of the bow more as a medium range dagger than what we typically think of as a bow being, i.e. long range volleys. I bet that wouldve been incredibly effective. Of course it would also explain why repeating weapons destroyed them. That tactic would be suicide once the settlers had revolvers and lever action rifles.

Title: Re: Lars Anderson on Comanche Archery
Post by Sarosh on Oct 9th, 2021 at 12:30pm

Archaic Arms wrote on Oct 9th, 2021 at 5:29am:
It would be interesting to compare energies of a 60lb bow at 60ft, and 145lb 'war bow' at 600ft.

exactly what i was thinking

Morphy wrote on Oct 9th, 2021 at 9:30am:
Do you have a link for that?

found this https://youtu.be/8ykz1sp1s7o dont know if it counts

Title: Re: Lars Anderson on Comanche Archery
Post by Morphy on Oct 9th, 2021 at 12:46pm
Good find Sarosh! Yea that is about what you would expect. Looks like he had a good 8 or more inches of arrow hanging off probably bringing him to about 40-45 pounds of pull. I think I “might” have pulled 40 a few times with pinch grip back when I was shooting a lot but it’s actually way harder than it sounds.

One would think pinch grip would be pretty good since it would give such a clean release but yeah unfortunately the difficulty will get ya unless you have superhuman finger strength.

Title: Re: Lars Anderson on Comanche Archery
Post by J on Oct 13th, 2021 at 2:33pm
Its 60@22 .

Title: Re: Lars Anderson on Comanche Archery
Post by Morphy on Oct 13th, 2021 at 3:14pm

AncientCraftwork wrote on Oct 13th, 2021 at 2:33pm:
Its 60@22 .


That would be astonishing to pull that much with a finger grip but im sure some could. You could tell it was crazy hard to pull.

But lets say that guys an outlier. Even if Native Americans could shoot twice as fast with a 60# bow they still wouldnt be breaking any records on speed shooting. Which is why I suspect they werent actually shooting 60# bows with pinch grip.

Think about it...a 45# bow is more than enough to kill a person or deer. Using a 60# one would slow your shooting and not kill them anymore dead than a 45#. Essentially its like a video game with Damage per second. If both bows can kill with one shot then its the bow with the faster reload and easier to shoot that you would use.

Title: Re: Lars Anderson on Comanche Archery
Post by Hirtius on Oct 26th, 2021 at 1:06am
Just a heads up, the draw used by Lars in the video (4:13) is a hybrid pinch draw. There is a pinch component with fingers under also pulling the string. The hybrid pinch draw is an extremely common draw from around the world, it just doesn’t get much attention compared to split finger (Mediterranean) or thumb draw. Pure pinch draws exist but are relatively rare, especially since they’re so limiting. The hybrid pinch draw doesn’t have the same restrictions. Lars’ grip with it looks flimsy, there often is different finger placement than what he does.

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