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Message started by Sarosh on Aug 20th, 2021 at 11:48am

Title: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Sarosh on Aug 20th, 2021 at 11:48am
"If you don't like how things are you can go live in a secluded island" I'm looking for that island.
valuing life and safety are excuses for governments to gain more control.
My country sucks all around
for the past month access to all forests and some parks with trees is legally banned.Fine is 1k Ä Cause: forest fires.  in the next month the 3rd quarantine will probably start....

If I ever had the chance to move which country/place should I choose? Where is the land of the free?

My 1st thought is Mongolia because of the low population density and because I dont hear much about it on the news :P

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Morphy on Aug 20th, 2021 at 12:10pm
Let me ask you this because I think this is probably an important start to this conversation. What "exactly" are you trying to get away from? Surely it isnt just not being able to go into the forest?

Is it covid restriction/vaccine passport related? If so there will be no where safe from that. Those in power will make sure of that. This is your worldwide "papers please" moment and once those things are instituted I imagine a Chinese social credit system isnt far off.

Along with who knows what else.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Sarosh on Aug 20th, 2021 at 12:31pm

Morphy wrote on Aug 20th, 2021 at 12:10pm:
Surely it isnt just not being able to go into the forest?

being able to do that means there is some basic freedom of movement. in rural areas law is theoretically the same but practically different.


Morphy wrote on Aug 20th, 2021 at 12:10pm:
Is it covid restriction/vaccine passport related?

yes.it shows how they treat crises in the future. these restrictions are an indication of how power thirsty a government is or that its people want to be treated as cattle or that there is a big division in it's people. all are unwanted. I'd take big division over cattle.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by vetryan15 on Aug 20th, 2021 at 12:47pm
An area u are looking for is ALASKA.  remote. Dont move to a big town or city. Some outskirts are great. No building codes and no property taxes.  You can live however you want. Thats my dream state, it might still happen. Maybe in 10 years if my location bugs the hell outta me more. With dumb neighbors

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by walter on Aug 21st, 2021 at 9:19pm
AK for sure. If I were 40 years younger I would go back :-?

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Morphy on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 6:10am
While alaska may be as good as any place I cant imagine anyone would be able to live out there indefinitely without being able to resupply things like metal tools etc. Thats assuming you can actually get enough food to have a balanced diet.

Its looking like the big push is going to eventually be you cant even go into supermarkets/stores to get food unless you have it. I say this because its already being discussed by a few openly which usually means its being discussed a lot behind closed doors.

If that happens could a person realistically live there without being able to restock?

Im less concerned about the vaccine  than the vaccine passports. To me it seems they are using this to force things that could never be done under normal circumstances.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Rat Man on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 8:29am
    Personally I can't comprehend being resistive to being vaccinated during a plague.  I got my shots back in January and February and I'll be in line as soon as the booster is available in September.
     Plagues have been with us since the dawn of time.  Vaccination has been our only effective weapon.  During plagues there are those who take every reasonable precaution and give themselves the best chance to survive and there are those who preach and live ignorance and stupidity and pay the full price.  I  don't mean to be offensive but this is honestly how I feel.  I am very thankful for vaccinations. 

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Rat Man on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 8:41am
If it was just a matter of the vaccinated avoiding Covid and the unvaccinated becoming infected I would say "Fine, to each their own." Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. The unmasked and unvaccinated serve as perti dishes for all new variants, putting everyone at greater risk.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Sarosh on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 9:13am
@Rat Man
some people are first in line and some are last. I didn't say I don't accept to be vaccinated. I recently did my tetanus vaccine.
the thing is that politicians muddied the waters with the covid situation.


Rat Man wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 8:41am:
If it was just a matter of the vaccinated avoiding Covid and the unvaccinated becoming infected I would say "Fine, to each their own." Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. The unmasked and unvaccinated serve as perti dishes for all new variants, putting everyone at greater risk.

That can be said about everything. inaction is complicity, isn't that what we do everyday?

Humanity betting everything on a massive and mandatory vaccination is absurd. anything massive and mandatory should be questioned and examined.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Morphy on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 10:04am
While there are good reasons to be concerned about the vaccine I am no anti vaxxer. I have all my vaccines current and up to date. But I did not get the covid one for reasons that would likely lead to a wall of text no one would care to read.

That being said my biggest concern, even more so than the above, is the blatant censorship against actual, credible pathologists, microbiologists, virologist, doctors of every specialization, nobel prize winners et al. trying to bring up real data and real opposing view points.

Its damn hard to find these opposing viewpoints when we should be welcoming it. Thats the only way science comes to the truth of anything. Censorship does not lead to truth in science. It never has. Everyone regardless of how they feel about covid and the vaccine should be worried about this.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Rat Man on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 2:15pm

Sarosh wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 9:13am:
@

[quote author=7C4F5A71634F402E0 link=1629474512/7#7 date=1629636112]

Humanity betting everything on a massive and mandatory vaccination is absurd. anything massive and mandatory should be questioned and examined.


It's about options.† I was definitely concerned about getting my Covid shots.† It was an unapproved experimental vaccine.† There was a small risk factor.† But what is the alternative?† I weighed the options and getting this experimental vaccine was my best one.† Humanity is betting everything on a massive and mandatory vaccination; not because we think it's a swell idea.† It's because it is our only option.†

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Lightning Jack on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 8:13pm
This basically sums up what I think of the whole thing
A4922E51-8BA2-4A53-96F1-0FC7B3C39DA2.jpeg (110 KB | 12 )

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Hirtius on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 12:42am
I think resistance to vaccines is part of a greater sickness, that we donít have a sense of duty or obligation towards the safety of each other. For reasons of politics, paranoia, or just plain laziness, we put our own desires ahead of the safety of everyone. And I mean everyone. As Rat Man pointed out, the more Covid spreads around, the more it will change. Vaccines practically eliminated hospitalizations and death, and probably have prevented numerous cases from either happening. Those are the current results.

I think all of this craziness needs to stop. Sure, many governments have screwed up pretty bad on many things. But how paranoid do you have to be to imagine that this current effort is some super government conspiracy to achieveÖ what, exactly?

For the record, Iím a very skeptical person. But skepticism is different than paranoia, I base my conclusions on what is most reasonable. I guess that just varies from person to person.

Iím more of a ďsimplest answer is probably the bestĒ kind of guy, and itís only natural to conclude that the driving force is willful ignorance. People donít like to be told what to do. Maybe they feel brave or special that theyíre going against the flow. Perhaps (though this would be ridiculousÖ) itís to create another political wedge issue. Maybe they truly are crazy. Either way, I think we should be concerned that this is what we have come to.

I have a friend who says they know people who are waiting until full FDA approval. Itís a bit silly considering the populace has been testing it already, but to each their own. But the reason I doubt they will get vaccinated then is because it was never about their health in the first place.

One last thing about ďfreedomĒ, a word that is often carelessly thrown around to suit an individualís needs. Freedom is a very important thing, Iíd hate to live without it. Freedom means we can do great things. But we should also recognize that freedom means we can also do stuff that screws over (or at least disregards) everyone else. Maybe itís just me, but I think people should think long and hard about what they mean.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Sarosh on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 3:25am

Hirtius wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 12:42am:
I think resistance to vaccines is part of a greater sickness, that we donít have a sense of duty or obligation towards the safety of each other.

resistance to different opinions or ideals is a sickness?


Hirtius wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 12:42am:
Sure, many governments have screwed up pretty bad on many things. But how paranoid do you have to be to imagine that this current effort is some super government conspiracy to achieveÖ what, exactly?

vaccine passports are not a conspiracy.
it doesn't have to be a super government coordinating everything for things to get worse or for us to lose a lot of our freedoms. it can happen because people and governments are lazy or stupid and adopt or accept policies because everyone else is doing it or because they prefer someone smarter to choose for themselves.


Hirtius wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 12:42am:
One last thing about ďfreedomĒ, a word that is often carelessly thrown around to suit an individualís needs. Freedom is a very important thing, Iíd hate to live without it. Freedom means we can do great things. But we should also recognize that freedom means we can also do stuff that screws over (or at least disregards) everyone else. Maybe itís just me, but I think people should think long and hard about what they mean.

I know very well what I mean.
In this case I prefer freedom over safety or life. If somebody or I die from covid that doesnt change my opinion. Nobody is special everyone dies.


Rat Man wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 2:15pm:
It's about options.
It's because it is our only option.†

it's about options, it is not our only option.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Morphy on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 4:37am
Open question:

At what level of tyranny/censorship would you decide that you cant go along with the what youre told to do anymore? Or how about less than that. At what point do you say wait a second this seems a little odd.

Honestly, this is a real question. Im sure everyones line in the sand is different. Have you considered that question for yourselves?

If you are waiting for some guy to appear from behind a curtain, twist his mustache and say "Mwahahahah", thats never going to happen.

What will happen is a constant series of fear inducing crises where the only answer is to give up a little more freedom each time. Then one day it will get so bad that the people will collectively say "how did we get here?" And the answer is always the same. One step at a time. Each step was for the greater good, each step was to narrowly avert disaster, each step was to prove your patriotism or your devotion to the collective or to embrace "progress".

It keeps happening. Over and over. And each time a generation or two or three has to suffer horrifically before they learn that lesson only for it to be forgotten with the upcoming generations. Each time the upcoming generations are 100% sure it can happen somewhere else but not "here". Wherever here may be.

So again, what's your line in the sand? Ive played my hand but I am genuinely curious to see others breaking points so to speak.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 7:58am
I've talked to as many conspiracy theorists as I can In the last couple of years.
And I have never once got a straight answer to a couple of very simple questions.

1) how does a government benefit by practically bankrupting itself in a massive effort to both save people's lives from a proven threat. And also pay the wages of people for an entire year.

2) exactly what 'freedoms' are being lost or eroded ? That actually existed, before covid 19.

So far I have not had a single answer to either question.

In America - over and above the usual deaths - over half a million extra people have died.
Because they are scattered throughout the entire country, it's fairly easy to not feel astonished or outraged.
Had a single, fair sized city been wiped out by a virus. The response would have been completely different.

Same disease, same number if deaths, but there would have been a completely different response in the major population.

Obviously the same people would have claimed conspiracy, again without being able to point to a single reason for such an action.

But if cities and towns were wiped out wholesale - the impact of the same number of deaths would have been much greater.

As an example. If all the deaths and misery caused by alcohol consumption were concentrated in a single city - people would do something about it.

People are fundamentally selfish.

Me I wore a face mask and used the sanitiser and kept clear if people during lockdown, to protect my family. Not anyone elses.

As it turns out, I have natural immunity to Corona viruses. But I've had my vaccines and got my passport.
Because it means I can go back to normal life. Not for anyone elses benefit but for mine.

And to a large extent that's how human society functions. Everyone looking out for themselves actually ends up benefitting the vast majority.

It only goes tits up when you get people who don't even want to benefit themselves.
Who believe in some mysterious and never explained conspiracy, that is aimed at them specifically.

The government/illuminati/big pharma/Microsoft/pick your villain, is specifically targeting them for, again no actually specified reason.

That attitude is mainly down to people wanting to feel important, what's more important than the big boys specifically targeting them as individuals.

But at the end of the day humans are mainly driven by a system of 'what's in it for me'.

And quite simply, there is nothing in it for most governments to use the resources they have in trying to stop this disease.

Stopping the disease is 'whats in it for them'.
People go back to work, society starts up again and taxes can be gathered, monies can once again be embezzled and politicians can once more jump back on the gravy train.

Because it again turns out that what is beneficial for the general population, is doubly beneficial for the people at the top of the pyramid and their bank accounts.

Now obviously there are a few exceptions and a number of companies and government employees who have directly benefitted from the pandemic.
But it's individuals and NOT governments as a whole.

There is no conspiracy, there is just a nasty disease, human nature and the constant clamouring cry of: ' what's in it for me ?'

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 8:27am
As far as surviving in the wilderness without modern conveniences.
Well yeah, entire groups of people do it all the time.

You learn skills, you learn to live in and from your environment and you accept the fact that you live Solely to survive.

As far as something as esoteric as 'personal freedoms' goes

Go find somewhere oif the grid. And you will have the freedom to starve to death and the freedom to spend your whole life just surviving the day to day exigencies of life.

Or do you want the 'right' to harm others with unpunity ?
That's pretty much the only 'freedom' modern society tries to deny you.

I personally, have no desire to harm others, so exactly None of my 'personal freedoms' have ever been denied me. Nor can I envisage how they could be.

But I'm not delusional enough to feel that I'm important enough for some faceless megalithic organisation to give a damn what I choose to do.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Rat Man on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 8:29am
     Well said, c_a.  The vast majority of the time this holds true.  There are some selfless people out there who genuinely care about the welfare of others but they are the exception.  So far four and a half million people have died from Covid.  When compared to the total world population this is a small number and would seem inconsequential.  Unless you or a loved one was one of the four and a half million.
     The last time we were completely free was when we were hunter/gatherers.  Once we settled into agrarian communities we had to give up some of our freedom. Laws are necessary to prevent chaos. FREEDOM IS A RELATIVE TERM. 
    No one has the right to spread disease. 

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Rat Man on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 8:32am

Lightning Jack wrote on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 8:13pm:
This basically sums up what I think of the whole thing


And if this was the whole story I'd totally agree with you.  You're leaving out the fact that Covid rapidly evolves into more virulent strains.  That's the real danger. 

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by perpetualstudent on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 8:35am
As we mentioned in the last thread C_A, power is its own end. Having to have papers (or the proper app) in order to leave your house wasn't in the cards in western civ pre-covid. Sure most people took their phones, and govs admittedly tracked them, but there's still a difference. A big one.

@morphy
That's a damn good question. "When legitimate means fail to achieve redress". Is one answer, but one I fear is too simplistic. We will endure much tyranny to keep our families safe. The herd can endure much. But there's a point where the herd snaps. The French are my go to example here. The terror wasn't an improvement over the aristocracy but the herd hit the point where they were willing to roll the dice.

When ~90% vaccination plus a papers citizen app to leave your house isn't enough (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-58245285) and we start admitting that the vaccine's effectivity isn't almost 100 but rather almost 60 percent (https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/british-study-shows-covid-19-vaccine-efficacy-wanes-under-delta-2021-08-18/) the narrative of "if everybody just obeyed we'd be back to normal" starts falling apart. Especially when people say things like

Quote:
"When the vaccines were first developed, nobody was thinking that they were going to prevent infection," said Carlos del Rio, a professor of medicine and infectious disease epidemiology at Emory University in Atlanta.
https://www.reuters.com/world/china/how-delta-variant-upends-assumptions-about-coronavirus-2021-07-26/

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Sarosh on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 9:17am

Curious Aardvark wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 7:58am:
1) how does a government benefit by practically bankrupting itself in a massive effort to both save people's lives from a proven threat. And also pay the wages of people for an entire year.

2) exactly what 'freedoms' are being lost or eroded ? That actually existed, before covid 19.


I'll try to answer these.
1)the government may bankrupt itself while the people in it become rich and powerful, in fact that is the easy way to do things. e.g. bankrupt the public electricity company while shorting it. destroy or depreciate public infrastructure and services and replace it with private companies that do the job "better" the private companies make profit that goes to individuals in a way that the public company didn't allow.

who's trying to save people's lives? the government has done that depreciation in the health sector, less beds, less doctors, less hospitals. cops beating doctors and nurses that request for more doctors and nurses, at the same time the government hires cops and buys police equipment. in the summer time covid restrictions stop but covid is still here.

is it a proven threat? a virus exists, where are the real data? it has been discussed before that there is profit to be made in falsifying data and we know politicians and scientists that have withheld info regarding where the covid started from. now if it is 2% death rate why is that important? aren't there bigger threats with higher death rates that we turn the blind eye to because there is no profit to be made?or because there is not enough sensationalism to move the masses in a coordinated manner?

the wages of people for an entire year, not really. where are the money taken from and where do they end up?

2)The freedom to go where I want when I want without it being illegal. The freedom to state an opinion at the place I used to without it being illegal.


Curious Aardvark wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 8:27am:
But I'm not delusional enough to feel that I'm important enough for some faceless megalithic organisation to give a damn what I choose to do.

Is it delusional to think that a government should serve its people? it gives a damn if you pay taxes

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Morphy on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 9:47am
Actually virtually all very powerful organizations pay big money to know as much about you and everyone else as possible. From coorporations to political parties to intelligence agencies and social media. This isnt even an open secret. Its openly admitted.

@Perpetual_Student- Thats a good theoretical point. I do like the succinctness of that definition. But I also feel like, as you implied, the vast majority of the people would always say "well its just a little more freedom lost" "its for the greater good."† Maybe the answer is there is no good answer which is why we seem destined to relive this particular cycle over and over till the end of time.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Hirtius on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 4:41pm

Morphy wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 4:37am:
Open question:

At what level of tyranny/censorship would you decide that you cant go along with the what youre told to do anymore? Or how about less than that. At what point do you say wait a second this seems a little odd.

Honestly, this is a real question. Im sure everyones line in the sand is different. Have you considered that question for yourselves?

If you are waiting for some guy to appear from behind a curtain, twist his mustache and say "Mwahahahah", thats never going to happen.

What will happen is a constant series of fear inducing crises where the only answer is to give up a little more freedom each time. Then one day it will get so bad that the people will collectively say "how did we get here?" And the answer is always the same. One step at a time. Each step was for the greater good, each step was to narrowly avert disaster, each step was to prove your patriotism or your devotion to the collective or to embrace "progress".


Good question. At what level of tyranny or censorship? Well, Iíll be concerned when I actually see tyranny or censorship. Making people take measures to protect the health of everyone is not what I would typically count as ďtyrannyĒ. I think in most US states (29, I think), there are laws criminalizing knowingly spreading HIV. In every other state, I think they apply the general ďreckless endangermentĒ instead of something specific. Should you be free to spread around a disease? To me, that seems like youíre infringing on the safety of others.

What I consider as actions that might lead to tyranny are complete loyalty to a particular person, trying to overturn a fair democratic election, ransacking the seat of government and issuing threats to elected officials, and trying to make certain things illegal to teach in schools (which might not have even been taught in the first place) for fear that it might reveal some unpleasant truths. Thankfully, I live in America where none of this would ever happen.

Now, I should be fair here. Has Covid led to tyrannical governments exerting more control over the populace? Absolutely. But are our existing democracies using Covid for some vaguely defined nefarious evil? No. For the anti-vax Americans out there, you do realize that a good chunk of the government is saying a lot of the same things you do? Thatís because we the people put those people there. The government is not some underground evil force, itís a reflection of ourselves that is just as messy as the whole picture.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Hirtius on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 4:57pm
Curious Aardvark, I agree that weíre largely creatures that look out for ourselves. However, I believe there is a part of us that is selfless. Maybe itís just disguised selfishness to shape the world into one that is safer for us. Either way, I think we need to lean into that.


Sarosh wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 9:17am:
2)The freedom to go where I want when I want without it being illegal. The freedom to state an opinion at the place I used to without it being illegal.


You should try moving to most of the developed world. At least in the United States, I can say anything I damn well please. No opinion is illegal. Just donít threaten people bodily harm.

Wanting to go where you want? Sure, but thatís trickier. Should you be able to break into your neighborís house, or even any strangerís, any time you want? I wouldnít like a place like that. In your case, you have the fires. If they let people out and about in those areas, couldnít people accidentally start fires that endanger others? Couldnít you end up in danger, with rescuers obligated to risk their life to save you? From what youíve told me, those restrictions arenít unreasonable. But Iím probably just a mindless sheep who believes in protecting  the property and lives of others.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Morphy on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 4:59pm
Hirtius- 2nd paragraph - I completely agree.

1st paragraph- No censorship? Interesting...

3rd- paragraph- ok fair points. Thank you for your thoughts.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Lightning Jack on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 8:29pm
Do any of you even realize that there really is no pandemic? You guys do not know what a pandemic is. The Black Plague was a pandemic with a 99% death rate, people dead all over the place. It also spread faster than wildfire. Now fast forward to the present. We have this sickness COVID-19 (a slightly stronger common cold with a fancy name) and people are being forced to wear a mask and take vaccines (in some countries) for a sickness that has a 99% recovery rate and the people on the news say it spreads fast but if it did everyone should have had it by now. Also I thought that we have the right to chose if we want some foreign matter pumped into our bloodstream or not. Also you say that the government is doing it for health and safety but if that were true why donít they ban cigarettes and alcohol?

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by joe_meadmaker on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 8:54pm

perpetualstudent wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 8:35am:
we start admitting that the vaccine's effectivity isn't almost 100 but rather almost 60 percent (https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/british-study-shows-...)

The current vaccine wasn't designed to be effective against the Delta variant.† 60% (or thereabouts, I've heard as low as 40%) is just what it happens to be doing because there are similarities with the earlier strains.† Vaccination for Delta will likely end up being a booster shot, or another vaccine entirely.


@Lightning Jack - While pandemics are often looked at in terms of the mortality rate, a high mortality rate isn't required for it to be a pandemic.† That ultimately just falls to what definition you want to use.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Hirtius on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 9:35pm

Lightning Jack wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 8:29pm:
Do any of you even realize that there really is no pandemic? You guys do not know what a pandemic is. The Black Plague was a pandemic with a 99% death rate, people dead all over the place. It also spread faster than wildfire. Now fast forward to the present. We have this sickness COVID-19 (a slightly stronger common cold with a fancy name) and people are being forced to wear a mask and take vaccines (in some countries) for a sickness that has a 99% recovery rate and the people on the news say it spreads fast but if it did everyone should have had it by now. Also I thought that we have the right to chose if we want some foreign matter pumped into our bloodstream or not. Also you say that the government is doing it for health and safety but if that were true why donít they ban cigarettes and alcohol?


Firstly, as Joe_meadmaker said, pandemics arenít defined by mortality. Itís just a globally occurring outbreak of a disease.

Second, the Black Plague probably didnít have a 99% mortality. A very high mortality (maybe 50 - 70%), but there were survivors. During the plague of Justinian (the same disease), the emperor caught it but survived. Survivors were terribly scarred.

Third, Covid isnít a ďslightly stronger common cold with a fancy nameĒ, itís a new and very different disease that easily has 10 times the mortality rate, and can seriously mess some people up.

Finally, the government (US government, sorry everyone else) actually has tried banning both those things. Cigarettes are being legally pushed out of most areas and are increasingly taxed. As for alcohol, there was this little era called prohibition when a ban on alcohol was added to the constitution. If youíre American, you might have heard of it.  The government didnít have the power to stop people from violating that law, and popular support that had brought that amendment into being soon forced it out. It was a failure. Just like with Covid, the government isnít an all powerful entity that can do stuff like that on a whim. Itís an organization subject to the sentiment of the people, even when it doesnít feel like it.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Sarosh on Aug 24th, 2021 at 4:29am

Hirtius wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 4:57pm:
You should try moving to most of the developed world. At least in the United States, I can say anything I damn well please. No opinion is illegal. Just donít threaten people bodily harm.

from what I know you can state your opinion only on the web and at places it doesn't matter. I think in your country you had police arresting or attacking people in their homes for being at a place the police didn't like, we had that also.
my country is considered developed and I think that developed countries are becoming the most toxic places to be, too many teargas invitations to peace...


Hirtius wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 4:57pm:
Wanting to go where you want? Sure, but thatís trickier. Should you be able to break into your neighborís house, or even any strangerís, any time you want? I wouldnít like a place like that. In your case, you have the fires. If they let people out and about in those areas, couldnít people accidentally start fires that endanger others? Couldnít you end up in danger, with rescuers obligated to risk their life to save you? From what youíve told me, those restrictions arenít unreasonable. But Iím probably just a mindless sheep who believes in protecting† the property and lives of others.

you are ignoring the context of our conversation which is about covid. The places I was able to go before I can no longer access. The hours I was able to be outside of my house have been restricted. We had to SMS the government that we are going out of the house and what we are gonna do.

the fires are arson even police said that.
last year a fire started at 3am in the mountains the media said it was self ignition, a wildfire. a wildfire without sun at the coldest time of the day.demonstration of 1000 IQ by national TV.
people might start fires accidentaly all year round. People are responsible for their meat and bones if they are not send them back to school or take their driving license because that is a very dangerous thing to do for someone irresponsible.

now why the fire restrictions are a little unreasonable.
1) denying access to public will not stop criminals
2) by removing the public you have removed all eyes from an area at which you dont have enough fire detection in the first place, not enough personnel or equipment in the fire department politicians made sure of that

the gov is constantly buying police equipment but no fire fighting equipment.
we expect the fires to extinguish with volunteers with little equipment, with self awareness spread by NGOs supported by the government, and we are gonna help the affected with donations and charities. but lets keep believing that the government protects us.



Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Sarosh on Aug 24th, 2021 at 4:33am
So Any country that values freedom over safety?

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Morphy on Aug 24th, 2021 at 7:34am
Lots of differing viewpoints here. I try to be nuanced in my understanding (i know a couple of you got a laugh at that one) but in todays world its almost impossible not to be lumped on one side or the other. Heres a quick list of my beliefs so far.

1. Im provaccination and skeptical but still procovid vaccination. Ive just seen some things that make me want to wait before injecting myself. I will be taking it if I can find some resolution to the things Ive seen.

2. I have to disagree that covid isnt a pandemic. I do understand where Lightning Jack is coming from but not all pandemics have to be as bad as the plague to fit that definition. Thank God its not the plague. I see the effects of covid every day. Yes its serious sh1t.

3. There is definitely censorship on the subject. So much so that its almost impossible to find opposing scientific viewpoints from good sources. Not impossible mind you, but they instantly get buried under a mountain of google returns for the mainstream narrative. If you dont believe there is censorship you probably need to do more research.

4. My biggest concern is that people in power are using this situation to take away freedoms. My desire to balance freedom with safety does not make me selfish. Nor does my belief that people in power do evil things to gain more power make me delusional. I am on the right side of history on both of those statements.

5. I do not believe anyone is a mindless sheep for having their beliefs. We all are coming at this with different backgrounds and biases. None of us are bias free. But this is where open dialogue has to be allowed. Censorship and mocking do not increase freedom. Censoring one scientific view is not the same as there being a world wide 100% scientific consensus.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Sarosh on Aug 24th, 2021 at 12:28pm

Morphy wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 4:37am:
At what level of tyranny/censorship would you decide that you cant go along with the what youre told to do anymore? Or how about less than that. At what point do you say wait a second this seems a little odd.

When my driving license was more credible than my ID because my "ID can be easily forged", it was a little odd*. we have ingrained to us by society since childhood that a man with the right uniform can handle you as he pleases. So it might require a couple of punches to realize you can't obey anymore or even more because you might be so sick that you think you deserve it.

*my freedom and life depends on a document created by an authority that disputes it

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by perpetualstudent on Aug 24th, 2021 at 3:02pm

joe_meadmaker wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 8:54pm:

perpetualstudent wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 8:35am:
The current vaccine wasn't designed to be effective against the Delta variant.† 60% (or thereabouts, I've heard as low as 40%) is just what it happens to be doing because there are similarities with the earlier strains.† Vaccination for Delta will likely end up being a booster shot, or another vaccine entirely.


joe_meadmaker wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 8:54pm:
[quote author=73667173667776626F70777667666D77030 link=1629474512/19#19 date=1629722126]we start admitting that the vaccine's effectivity isn't almost 100 but rather almost 60 percent (https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/british-study-shows-...)

The current vaccine wasn't designed to be effective against the Delta variant.† 60% (or thereabouts, I've heard as low as 40%) is just what it happens to be doing because there are similarities with the earlier strains.† Vaccination for Delta will likely end up being a booster shot, or another vaccine entirely.


True as far as it goes. Which isn't very far. Note the other link I gave where researchers said "nobody expected this vaccine to confer immunity" and that was before Delta became the dominant variant. You can also take a look at (https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58270098) where we are finally beginning to ask the questions about robust immunity (the vaccine's response is smaller, this shouldn't be a surprise). Should we get locked in endless boosters? It'll mutate again. Viruses we can eradicate are the exception not the rule. We roll out delta boosters, the epsilon variant or another will be dominant.

You can choose whether the talking heads deliberately misled or were ignorant (and you can also decide which is scarier) but herd immunity is off the table. By researcher's own admissions, it may never have been on the table.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Rat Man on Aug 24th, 2021 at 3:30pm
† † I'm about erroring on the side of caution.† If my best guess is right then wearing a mask, getting vaccinated, and avoiding social gatherings are inconveniences that could eventually save my live and/or keep me from killing someone else.† †If I'm wrong nothing happens.† I wasted a little time and effort and I'm fine.† It seems like a no brainer to me.
† † This is an honest question.† What freedom have I lost by getting vaccinated?† I can't think of any.† I surely don't feel like I lost any particular freedom.† My life is still the same.†
† †Should we get locked into endless boosters?† Sure, why not? If that's what it takes.† Isn't that what we already do with the flu?
† † I'd like to add that I don't consider anyone here an idiot.† We all have our opinion but no one really knows for sure how this will† play out.† Only time will tell.†

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by perpetualstudent on Aug 24th, 2021 at 3:42pm
Far be it from me to stand in any one's way for their life choices. You want to wear a mask, live in isolation, get endless experimental vaccines? Sure go ahead. You want to mandate those same things to everyone else? Well, then we have an issue.

This winds up a thorny question because if this was airborne aids, we would compel that and much much more. On the spectrum between airborne aids and the sniffles, this is a lot closer to the sniffles. So we do actually have to count the costs. The costs to small business owners, the costs to children's developments, the costs to avg people who lost livelihoods and life savings, for a disease with a ceiling mortality of 2%

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Morphy on Aug 24th, 2021 at 5:58pm
I think Im going to go ahead and try and make a small video with some of the reasons why those who are skeptical are that way. Not all of us get our science or opinions from facebook although the media would have you believe otherwise.

Everytime I find a study or scientific opinion expressing concern over aspects of how things are being handled I immediately go to the CDC or other mainstream sources to get the opposing view.

I can tell you, and Im not speaking of anyone in particular here on this site, that so many of the people who pretend like I or others are ignorant for being skeptical do NOT hold themselves to the same standards. Likely they havent even bothered to look at *any* opposing science on it but somehow feel they hold the intellectual high ground because of appeal to majority.

RM, if what you were saying was the whole of the matter I would agree completely. Unfortunately there are aspects of this that are not so black and white. PS mentioned one.
Another is the fact that studies have been done before covid was ever a thing warning about the danger that vaccinating like this (especially with a vaccine that doesnt kill or stop transmission of the virus), would actually create a climate where evolutionary pressure is put on this novel virus to evolve into more virulent strains.

On the other hand-

We all have our opinion but no one really knows for sure how this will† play out.† Only time will tell.†

^this is very well said and I couldnt agree more. None of has a damn clue about how this will all play out. Lets hope to God these vaccines dont end up causing cancer or some other disease years in the future because with this many people getting it after so little time spent in the human testing phase thats a nightmare scenario.

Ive been collecting a lot of links and info on differing views on this subject. Assuming my 2017 Ipad is up to the task Ill make a video showing stuff like this as well as odd things that really make you wonder how valid the things we are being told are.

Theres way too many things to do any of it justice on this thread.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Morphy on Aug 24th, 2021 at 6:03pm

Sarosh wrote on Aug 24th, 2021 at 12:28pm:

Morphy wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 4:37am:
At what level of tyranny/censorship would you decide that you cant go along with the what youre told to do anymore? Or how about less than that. At what point do you say wait a second this seems a little odd.

When my driving license was more credible than my ID because my "ID can be easily forged", it was a little odd*. we have ingrained to us by society since childhood that a man with the right uniform can handle you as he pleases. So it might require a couple of punches to realize you can't obey anymore or even more because you might be so sick that you think you deserve it.

*my freedom and life depends on a document created by an authority that disputes it


All good points. What really got me was when you said you have to text the government to go places. Thats unreal. What a crazy world we live in now. I wish I knew where you could go. Montana maybe?

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Sarosh on Aug 25th, 2021 at 12:26pm
I don't know if this happens in other countries.
The vaccinated will not require self testing to go to places, while those who haven't vaccinated will require it.but if we are going to have variants shouldn't everyone do tests to not spread disease?
The testing is used like a punishment to those who didn't vaccinate instead of really learning about the virus and protecting ourselves. Also the best way to show that the vaccine works is to not test the vaccinated.to show that the disease is deadly test those in the hospitals. Basic data manipulation.
It seems that we are going to have another quarantine even though a lot of people are vaccinated and it's going to be blamed on the unvaccinated.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Scorpion Vin on Aug 25th, 2021 at 6:58pm

Morphy wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 4:37am:
Open question:

At what level of tyranny/censorship would you decide that you cant go along with the what youre told to do anymore? Or how about less than that. At what point do you say wait a second this seems a little odd.

Honestly, this is a real question. Im sure everyones line in the sand is different. Have you considered that question for yourselves?

If you are waiting for some guy to appear from behind a curtain, twist his mustache and say "Mwahahahah", thats never going to happen.

What will happen is a constant series of fear inducing crises where the only answer is to give up a little more freedom each time. Then one day it will get so bad that the people will collectively say "how did we get here?" And the answer is always the same. One step at a time. Each step was for the greater good, each step was to narrowly avert disaster, each step was to prove your patriotism or your devotion to the collective or to embrace "progress".

It keeps happening. Over and over. And each time a generation or two or three has to suffer horrifically before they learn that lesson only for it to be forgotten with the upcoming generations. Each time the upcoming generations are 100% sure it can happen somewhere else but not "here". Wherever here may be.

So again, what's your line in the sand? Ive played my hand but I am genuinely curious to see others breaking points so to speak.


Any crisis is always created by someone outwardly, but never by itself. Sarosh's opinion is very similar to mine. If I died from covid, I would not change my mind either. In 2019, I fell ill with pneumonia, part of my lungs burned out, I went to the clinic at the 2nd week of illness, passed tests. I had every chance of dying from complete combustion of the lungs, just like from the coronavirus. BUT why is it not a coronavirus? As people die from the flu, no one did anything about it, everyone just stood and watched. The flu constantly mutates into new strains, please pay attention to this, with the advent of coronavirus in which the mortality rate is 4-6%, all other diseases have faded into the background.

Masks are very harmful, the dentist said, it is very harmful to breathe carbon dioxide into the fabric during the working day. The mouth is the dirtiest place in a person, we harm ourselves with bacteria.

Why doesn't any government in the world ban alcohol from which millions of deaths every year? Will not solve the problem of mortality of cardiovascular diseases and cancer? Why, if they care so much about citizens - I have never understood and will not understand this. Maybe I'm just a fool, I don't understand that coronavirus is the most terrible disease on the planet, and governments in the 21st century could not prevent and predict all this in advance, but launched the situation before such lockdowns?

A very interesting topic. The question of speculation in our rights under the pretext of security, I thought for a long time for the first time

If there is no one to protect us from, then the police will not be needed, as there are such countries without crime and police. Therefore, crime is needed at the expense of alcohol so that we think that we need help. But Iím not against the police, I just donít understand why the situation should be launched so that everything can be chopped off at the root. Take away alcohol, prohibit, take away poverty, put things in order in people's heads and there will be no crime. There are many ways to rid the world of crime

According to the logic of tests when crossing the border of states, you need to have a test that you are not sick, but why should I not do a test every day while at home? What if I accidentally fell ill? As if the chances of contracting coronavirus at home are less than in another country. In general, every day, 5 times you need to do a test according to this logic

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Scorpion Vin on Aug 25th, 2021 at 7:07pm
And every year. There were seasonal illnesses, many people got sick with colds, and no one did anything about it. Isn't it suspicious for so long and quarantined schools back in 2012 and after and earlier?

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Scorpion Vin on Aug 25th, 2021 at 7:21pm

Curious Aardvark wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 7:58am:
1) how does a government benefit by practically bankrupting itself in a massive effort to both save people's lives from a proven threat. And also pay the wages of people for an entire year.

But before the coronavirus, there were enough threats that had a high mortality rate, higher than that of the coronavirus, so much so that you have to lie and overestimate the mortality rate from the coronavirus so that it can somehow be compared. I have not seen borders close because of the flu, although you can see the death rate from it around the world is high

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Scorpion Vin on Aug 25th, 2021 at 7:40pm

Curious Aardvark wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 8:27am:
I personally, have no desire to harm others, so exactly None of my 'personal freedoms' have ever been denied me. Nor can I envisage how they could be.

I think you need to become an introvert and not leave the house at all. After all, there are many diseases that are transmitted all the same through the contacts of the handshake and the breathing of people, they have not gone anywhere. In the end, leaving the house, and walking down the street, you can crush an insect, there is always a chance to harm someone. You can't get vaccinated against all diseases, or can you? Correct me sir

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Scorpion Vin on Aug 25th, 2021 at 7:49pm

Rat Man wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 8:29am:
† † No one has the right to spread disease.

I think that potentially everyone can carry, except for covid, a disease that they do not know about

you can tolerate skin diseases, tuberculosis, is it possible to warn yourself and others against everything when leaving home? You must know that the vaccine interferes with the development of your own immunity, you are injected with body agents like a virus

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Scorpion Vin on Aug 25th, 2021 at 7:59pm

Lightning Jack wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 8:29pm:
Do any of you even realize that there really is no pandemic? You guys do not know what a pandemic is. The Black Plague was a pandemic with a 99% death rate, people dead all over the place. It also spread faster than wildfire. Now fast forward to the present. We have this sickness COVID-19 (a slightly stronger common cold with a fancy name) and people are being forced to wear a mask and take vaccines (in some countries) for a sickness that has a 99% recovery rate and the people on the news say it spreads fast but if it did everyone should have had it by now. Also I thought that we have the right to chose if we want some foreign matter pumped into our bloodstream or not. Also you say that the government is doing it for health and safety but if that were true why donít they ban cigarettes and alcohol?


I completely agree. I express a similar opinion, because what governments around the world have done will lead to hunger and a crisis, from which many more people will die than from the coronavirus. Correct me if I am mistaken.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Scorpion Vin on Aug 25th, 2021 at 8:04pm

Hirtius wrote on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 9:35pm:
Third, Covid isnít a ďslightly stronger common cold with a fancy nameĒ, itís a new and very different disease that easily has 10 times the mortality rate, and can seriously mess some people up.

But as practice shows, the coronavirus only finishes those who are already sick. That is why it is dangerous for those who are sick with diabetes, cancer, cardiovascular diseases, and people with weak immunity and age. It is dangerous for those who are already at risk from their lifestyle or heredity. I know what I'm talking about as a child, I was constantly sick with sore throat, arthritis, and could not walk because of pain in my knees, in which case it is easy to say that the coronavirus is dangerous to me, because I am already sick. It's just

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Aug 25th, 2021 at 8:30pm

Sarosh wrote on Aug 24th, 2021 at 4:33am:
So Any country that values freedom over safety?


The US is a federation of semi-independent statesÖ not as independent as they used to be, but Texas and Florida both have taken steps to protect citizens in their respective states from loss of freedoms due to the pandemicÖ at least for now.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Rat Man on Aug 26th, 2021 at 3:37pm
And Florida and Texas have the first and second highest number of new Covid cases in the past week.† Florida with 148544 and Texas with 117299.†

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/here-are-the-states-where-covid-19-is-increasing-2#block-7560b4e1-bf82-4661-a1f2-4efa99fc9604

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Rat Man on Aug 26th, 2021 at 4:13pm
† † And while Texas governor Abbot is busy banning local vaccine mandates he catches Covid himself.† Classic!
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/state/2021/08/17/greg-abbott-covid-positive-texas-governor/8171341002/
† † Meanwhile in Florida it seems that MANY don't care for Governor DeSantis's "protection" as seven school districts openly defy his order banning mask mandates.†
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/aug/23/florida-school-districts-require-masks-battle-against-governor-desantis-order

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Aug 26th, 2021 at 4:35pm

Rat Man wrote on Aug 26th, 2021 at 4:13pm:
† † And while Texas governor Abbot is busy banning local vaccine mandates he catches Covid himself.† Classic!
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/state/2021/08/17/greg-abbott-covid-positive-texas-governor/8171341002/
† † Meanwhile in Florida it seems that MANY don't care for Governor DeSantis's "protection" as seven school districts openly defy his order banning mask mandates.†
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/aug/23/florida-school-districts-require-masks-battle-against-governor-desantis-order


Thatís a great example of prioritizing freedom over safety!

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Morphy on Aug 26th, 2021 at 5:03pm
:-X

I would caution you not to read too much into that RM.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Lightning Jack on Aug 27th, 2021 at 1:05pm

Scorpion Vin wrote on Aug 25th, 2021 at 8:04pm:
But as practice shows, the coronavirus only finishes those who are already sick. That is why it is dangerous for those who are sick with diabetes, cancer, cardiovascular diseases, and people with weak immunity and age. It is dangerous for those who are already at risk from their lifestyle or heredity.



Exactly right. Also older people that arenít doing well. On the news they said people over 65 but there was an 108 year old that survived it

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Lightning Jack on Aug 27th, 2021 at 1:23pm

Rat Man wrote on Aug 26th, 2021 at 3:37pm:
And Florida and Texas have the first and second highest number of new Covid cases in the past week.† Florida with 148544 and Texas with 117299.



That really doesnít mean much, And it isnít that unusual. Texas and Florida have large populations. Also Iím pretty sure that the ďCovid-19 testsĒ are just generic coronavirus tests. There are a lot of different coronaviruses. The numbers of cases mean nothing except for comparing it against the deaths. There are also a lot of incorrect test results.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Morphy on Aug 27th, 2021 at 2:55pm
So...Lightning Jack pointed out part of the issue. The relatively large populations of those states.

Theres other issues as well.

First, case rates are given in a per capita basis while deaths are not. Very odd dont you think? Theres a good reason they did it that way.

First though lets talk about positive cases vs mortality rates. Quoting new cases is irrelevant if those new cases dont translate to higher per capita death rates or serious cases of covid. Its entirely possible that one state can have more cases and less deaths per capita.

Most new cases of covid and I mean the overwhelming majority are nothing. Just numbers on a piece of paper and anything from no symptoms to a normal, albeit miserable, flu. Looking at per capita case rates without the corresponding per capita deaths is not a good indicator on how its affecting our healthcare system because you cant know if you are seeing, for example, a super spreader event involving mostly younger people who statistically speaking are almost all going to be just fine or a nursing home which would be the opposite.

Likewise admittance to the icu is not necessarily as specfic as we would like either. The majority of people admitted dont end up on a vent for 3 weeks. Most have some observation and get prescribed some meds and sent home. Theres a huge gulf in between those two extremes. Death rates are a little more concrete. (Sometimes but thats a bigger issue i wont go into).

So going back to what I said in the beginning, why did they not publish the per capita death rates when they published the per capita case rates? Let me show you-

These are the per capita deaths per 100,000 people of the three states in question for the period of Aug. 19th- Aug. 25th of 2021.





Now, Ratman, heres your home state,† New Jersey 's-



New Jersey had the most deaths in the time period stated of all the states, while being the top 7th vaccinated state while Florida and Texas are 22 and 35 respectively.† New Jersey also has stricter mandates and a lower population of people 62 years and older than Florida, the age range most susceptible to death by covid, while Texas has a lower number of those aged 62 and older. So... at least in the last week you were about 50% more likely to die in New Jersey from covid than the other two states. It would seem then that at least for now the number one thing you could do to protect yourself would be to come to Florida or Texas.† ;)

This is not to say that the vaccine makes you more susceptible to death. Im not suggesting that. Or that you shouldnt get it. Thats a choice (for now) that people should make for themselves, although they are working on taking away that freedom.

Nor am I saying that death rates wont vary and change with each week. This is normal with any virus.

What i am trying to point out is that the news articles people read are designed specifically to sway you to a chosen narrative and they do that by leaving out information that would certainly make any reasonable person say "Hold on this doesnt make sense".

Lastly let me just say hopefully I didnt mistype anything or include any errors as I am pretty tired writing this. But yea...food for thought.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Rat Man on Oct 3rd, 2021 at 8:18am
    I got my booster yesterday.  Obviously we have different ways of looking at this. Personally I'm grateful to live in a country that takes such good care of me when most people in the world haven't even gotten their first shot yet. 
    The second shot reactivated an old Lyme Disease symptom in me.  A nerve tick in my lower left jaw that sort of feels like a cross between a toothache and touching aluminum foil to a filling.  For a week I was plagued with intermittent bouts of paralyzing pain lasting about twenty seconds.  They continued for another two weeks or so but after the first week they were more tolerable.  This is a symptom that's unique to me.  Unless you had Lyme Disease for fourteen years it's highly unlikely that this will happen to you.  I'm hoping it doesn't happen this time with the booster but I suspect it will. It's a price I'll pay to be safe.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Archaic Arms on Oct 3rd, 2021 at 9:28am

Rat Man wrote on Aug 26th, 2021 at 3:37pm:
And Florida and Texas have the first and second highest number of new Covid cases in the past week.† Florida with 148544 and Texas with 117299.†

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/here-are-the-states-where-covid-19-is-increasing-2#block-7560b4e1-bf82-4661-a1f2-4efa99fc9604

Kary Mullis (the person who invented PCR testing) explicitly stated that PCR cannot be used to diagnose disease, it was a technology intended for forensic use. He also stated that it could be put to nefarious use, as once the cycles are turned up (as have been, far above normal) you can find anything and everything in someone, effectively giving the 'tester' control over the diagnosis.
As it happens, he very conveniently died in 2019, as to not be able to challenge the abuse of his invention in 2020, and onwards.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Sarosh on Oct 3rd, 2021 at 9:44am

Rat Man wrote on Oct 3rd, 2021 at 8:18am:
Obviously we have different ways of looking at this

I have no problem with differing opinions. My problem starts when another person's opinion or choice has to be enforced on me.

I have a lot of opinions on how this world should be run but I dont feel the need to enforce it to others.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Rat Man on Oct 4th, 2021 at 8:43am

Sarosh wrote on Oct 3rd, 2021 at 9:44am:

Rat Man wrote on Oct 3rd, 2021 at 8:18am:
Obviously we have different ways of looking at this

I have no problem with differing opinions. My problem starts when another person's opinion or choice has to be enforced on me.

I have a lot of opinions on how this world should be run but I dont feel the need to enforce it to others.


And I have no problem with that sentiment for just about everything but infectious diseases.† I don't think it's necessary for me to list the horrible diseases that would still be with us if not for vaccinations.† The unvacciated are living petri dishes for new variants to develop.† No one has the right to spread disease.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Rat Man on Oct 4th, 2021 at 8:51am

Archaic Arms wrote on Oct 3rd, 2021 at 9:28am:

Rat Man wrote on Aug 26th, 2021 at 3:37pm:
And Florida and Texas have the first and second highest number of new Covid cases in the past week.† Florida with 148544 and Texas with 117299.†

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/here-are-the-states-where-covid-19-is-increasing-2#block-7560b4e1-bf82-4661-a1f2-4efa99fc9604

Kary Mullis (the person who invented PCR testing) explicitly stated that PCR cannot be used to diagnose disease, it was a technology intended for forensic use. He also stated that it could be put to nefarious use, as once the cycles are turned up (as have been, far above normal) you can find anything and everything in someone, effectively giving the 'tester' control over the diagnosis.
As it happens, he very conveniently died in 2019, as to not be able to challenge the abuse of his invention in 2020, and onwards.


† †You can get many false negatives with a PCR but no false positives.† Consequently it is an effective but sometimes not efficient tool for diagnosing diseases.† After three and a half years of inconclusive testing for my Lyme Disease (referred to at work as "What ever your problem is") it was a PCR (and it only took two) that positively identified the exact strain of Lyme I had.† Without the PCR I never would have gotten the medical attention and financial help I desperately needed.† I would probably be dead right now.†

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Sarosh on Oct 4th, 2021 at 8:55am

Rat Man wrote on Oct 4th, 2021 at 8:43am:
And I have no problem with that sentiment for just about everything but infectious diseases.  I don't think it's necessary for me to list the horrible diseases that would still be with us if not for vaccinations.  The unvacciated are living petri dishes for variants to develop.


never said vaccines don't work.


Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Sarosh on Oct 4th, 2021 at 9:00am

Rat Man wrote on Oct 4th, 2021 at 8:43am:
No one has the right to spread disease.

apparently there are no rights at all so no right to spread disease also

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Lightning Jack on Oct 4th, 2021 at 11:16am
@ratman: when they made the vaccines for all of those other diseases they never forced anyone to receive them, also those vaccines were made differently than the COVID vaccines. I donít know about you but I really donít want to be injected with a vaccine that is made aborted baby parts. And if any government really cares about people dying why donít they outlaw abortion? Also COVID is less as dangerous than the common cold, Iíve already had it three times, each time I had it, it was just a little cough and runny nose and in a few days I was better. Just stop watching tv or any sort of news and look at reality. If you or anyone else wants to take the vaccines I wonít stop you, just donít force it on other people. One of my coworkers knows someone in their fortyís that got the vaccine and had a stroke from it and almost died.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Rat Man on Oct 4th, 2021 at 4:37pm
    When I was a child we weren't allowed to attend public school without our vaccinations.  When I joined the army in 1975 I was forced to get the Swine Flu vaccine.  So yes, we were forced.  So you are wrong.  As for the rest of your statement, it's just too idiotic to comment on. I wouldn't know where to start. 

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Rat Man on Oct 4th, 2021 at 4:41pm

Sarosh wrote on Oct 4th, 2021 at 9:00am:

Rat Man wrote on Oct 4th, 2021 at 8:43am:
No one has the right to spread disease.

apparently there are no rights at all so no right to spread disease also


   Freedom is an illusion.  If you want to be free you have to live in the woods by yourself, off the grid and far from other people. We haven't been free since we were Hunter/Gatherers. 

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Sarosh on Oct 4th, 2021 at 5:11pm
Safety is an illusion†

Rat Man wrote on Oct 4th, 2021 at 4:41pm:
Freedom is an illusion.

or everybody is free until he gets caught. All I want is less restriction on everything, history proves there is nothing good coming out of it. and notice I prefer to move than fight/enforce my ideas. wouldn't you prefer if you were in a country full of people with the same sentiments as you? I know I would.


Rat Man wrote on Oct 4th, 2021 at 4:41pm:
If you want to be free you have to live in the woods by yourself, off the grid and far from other people. We haven't been free since we were Hunter/Gatherers.

this is the topic of this thread. Is there a place that I can go and live like a hunter gatherer? or a place with less restrictions from its rulers in comparison to the rest of the world?

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Lightning Jack on Oct 4th, 2021 at 6:16pm
@ratman: but were you forced to go to public school or forced to join the army? No. They are trying to force everyone to get it. Once they can do that they could force you to do pretty much anything. The United States is really starting to look a lot like Nazi Germany with a bit of communism mixed in, with Furher Joe Biden of the Forth Reich as itís puppet leader. Heís prolly being injected with meth and cocaine to even function just like Hitler. Except instead of killing Jews there is child sacrifice (abortion) instead. And it is happening worldwide not just the U.S.A.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Mersa on Oct 4th, 2021 at 6:33pm
Wow this thread is a mine field.

Thread carefully

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Sassa on Oct 4th, 2021 at 10:21pm
I really find this,as annoying as interesting Covid as killed a lot of people like it or not measures have to be placed to safeguard people and beside those poor souls that are not longer with us there is a good number of survivors who are scarred for life I wish I had the option of vaccine before, now is too late for me,  I was a chef with a family of 7 a 14 hours a day for 5 days job at times used those free days to work a second job, outdoors enthusiast, love to hike ,bushcraft, fishing and hunt and used to share all this with my kids all of this a the age of 52 in March 2020 UK went into lock down the government knew way back in January about covid did nothing because elections. In November† I got infected spent over a week in hospital to this day never fully recovered I have no balance so I use a walking stick in and out of the house,no stamina and chronic fatigue,I now use a CPAP machine during the day as well as night time due to poor lungs ,they discovered some brain damage too, average one hospital visit a week, no longer have a wage I relay on the welfare system ( something that I find humiliating I always worked for my keep)† Today after being ill for the last 4 weeks I returned to neurophysio rehab only to learn that there is no fixing I live the life of a 90 yo I just hope and wish that whatever posture you may have about Covid and freedom this don't ever happen to any of you

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by IronGoober on Oct 4th, 2021 at 11:24pm
@Sassa  I'm very sorry that you had to endure that. I've been fortunate to have a job that has kept me out of harms way. (and I happily got the vaccine as soon as I could, as did the rest of my family)

@lightningJack Please don't jump to using such hyperbole (i.e. Hitler).  One can draw parallels between just about any government on Earth and Hitler if they so choose to try and demonize a particular government. It's not constructive.

As far as the argument for abortion... I think it is playing God, in either case, to decide when a person has a soul or when to call them an actual person. One could slide to one extreme and call it mass murder for a man to masturbate. Millions of lives lost per discharge! On the other extreme end of the spectrum, one could say babies aren't people until they are speaking, etc. It's a slippery slope in either case. I'm pretty on the fence in either case on abortion, but its not black and white in my mind.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Morphy on Oct 5th, 2021 at 7:00am
Was talking to the charge nurse in the hospital the other day. We had a patient with undiagnosed difficulty breathing. Usual questions commenced. "Any fever?"

"No"

"Any contact with someone with covid in the last 14 days?

"No"

Someone steps in and informs the nurse "Shes had her vaccine, both already." The nurse looks at him, then at me and says "yea so have most of the other covid patients here".

Anyways since covid has become a political bludgeon to do whatever those in power want its probably good we are moving on to less inflammatory subjects like abortion and Hitler.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Rat Man on Oct 5th, 2021 at 12:35pm

Lightning Jack wrote on Oct 4th, 2021 at 6:16pm:
@ratman: but were you forced to go to public school or forced to join the army? No. They are trying to force everyone to get it. Once they can do that they could force you to do pretty much anything. The United States is really starting to look a lot like Nazi Germany with a bit of communism mixed in, with Furher Joe Biden of the Forth Reich as itís puppet leader. Heís prolly being injected with meth and cocaine to even function just like Hitler. Except instead of killing Jews there is child sacrifice (abortion) instead. And it is happening worldwide not just the U.S.A.


† †I find this fascinating.†
   And just for the record, yes, I was forced to go to public school.  That's what they did back in the day. There were truant officers that would come to your house to enforce it.  And though I enlisted of my own free will I could have just as easily been drafted. MANY people were forced to join the military.  Probably some are members here.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by J on Oct 5th, 2021 at 4:09pm
Sarosh there are places where you can live but getting there is a challenge.
If you don't have any relationships and you are on your own, it makes this proces a lot easier and it opens up a lot of possibilities of where you can go.
Around the world vast amount of people still live like people have always lived with only a few modifications. But you have to go to South America, Russia or Africa. The first will probably be most familiar for you.
You are a smart person so you can figure it out
Preparing where you are is not always the worst option either. I don't know how much skills you have yet.
Stay strong

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Rat Man on Oct 6th, 2021 at 7:48am

J wrote on Oct 5th, 2021 at 4:09pm:
Sarosh there are places where you can live but getting there is a challenge.
If you don't have any relationships and you are on your own, it makes this proces a lot easier and it opens up a lot of possibilities of where you can go.
Around the world vast amount of people still live like people have always lived with only a few modifications. But you have to go to South America, Russia or Africa. The first will probably be most familiar for you.
You are a smart person so you can figure it out
Preparing where you are is not always the worst option either. I don't know how much skills you have yet.
Stay strong


There are places in Alaska and Canada you can go to live completely off the grid also.† That's a really hard life though.† You'ld have to be very dedicated and have expert bushcraft skills.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Hirtius on Oct 6th, 2021 at 10:23pm

Morphy wrote on Oct 5th, 2021 at 7:00am:
Was talking to the charge nurse in the hospital the other day. We had a patient with undiagnosed difficulty breathing. Usual questions commenced. "Any fever?"

"No"

"Any contact with someone with covid in the last 14 days?

"No"

Someone steps in and informs the nurse "Shes had her vaccine, both already." The nurse looks at him, then at me and says "yea so have most of the other covid patients here".


Was it said in a joking manner?

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Morphy on Oct 6th, 2021 at 10:54pm

Hirtius wrote on Oct 6th, 2021 at 10:23pm:

Morphy wrote on Oct 5th, 2021 at 7:00am:
Was talking to the charge nurse in the hospital the other day. We had a patient with undiagnosed difficulty breathing. Usual questions commenced. "Any fever?"

"No"

"Any contact with someone with covid in the last 14 days?

"No"

Someone steps in and informs the nurse "Shes had her vaccine, both already." The nurse looks at him, then at me and says "yea so have most of the other covid patients here".


Was it said in a joking manner?


No sir. I know this particular charge nurse as we bring her patients all the time. She was dead serious.

This is going on in hospitals all over. Some areas obviously more than others. I just had a patient yesterday that had been extremely sick with covid even after being vaccinated. The other thing thats going on is vaccine related injuries are only reported in a very small fraction of cases. I know of nurses that have said virtually no one in their large hospital reports to VAERS. There is a very strong culture set in these places not to mention this particular vaccines shortcomings or any possible side effects.

This particular vaccine which really its not a vaccine by precovid definitions is garbage compared to a true attenuated virus vaccine. Calling this a pandemic of the unvaccinated is a straight up lie. Its still being spread by both vaccinated and unvaccinated alike.

I got nothing against anyone wanting to get vaxxed if they want but ill stick with natural immunity which has already been shown to be better and longer lasting.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Hirtius on Oct 6th, 2021 at 11:05pm
Could they possibly be lying about being vaccinated? We know that the vaccinated can still catch it and spread it, but it should be reducing hospitalizations and deaths.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Morphy on Oct 6th, 2021 at 11:17pm

Hirtius wrote on Oct 6th, 2021 at 11:05pm:
Could they possibly be lying about being vaccinated? We know that the vaccinated can still catch it and spread it, but it should be reducing hospitalizations and deaths.


I am often privy to various paperwork and medical records they have from previous hospital stays as well as diagnoses and follow ups which are sent to our charting system that I use in my own paperwork. Many have in their history that they have been vaxxed.

But besides that virtually no one that Ive talked to has appeared anything but proud of having got their vax. There is never any pressure here to be vaxed for your average citizen. This isnt like some parts of the country where some areas have significant social pressures for those who havent been. Except for businesses trying to protect against liability general citizens dont really feel much pressure to lie about it here.

The person I referenced from my last shift mentioned it more as an oddity to be laughed at rather than any kind of serious point.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Hirtius on Oct 7th, 2021 at 12:35am
Thatís odd. What would explain the proportion of the vaccinated then? Are many of the vaccinated getting seriously sick or dying?

Iíve heard from a nurse that their hospital is still being filled with Covid patients, but largely by the unvaccinated.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Morphy on Oct 7th, 2021 at 1:10am
I dont have a good answer for that. I would be lying if I said I did.

Look at Israel. One of the most highly vaxed nations and yet the majority of their hospitalized covid patients are vaxed. Why would that be and yet other places are reporting the opposite? Israel is extremely provax so we can assume any negative results with the vax are not politically motivated. Some articles suggest the immunity waned too quickly. Well...doesnt explain other countries not reporting similar problems. Its been less than a year since the vax came out 2 main shots and a booster should be enough to help.

I think if a person wants to get it, by all means. But doesnt hurt to look at all sides. Personally for a virus like this I think natural immunity is the way to go. For something like smallpox or anthrax sign me up for a vax. But then even with the smallpox vax it actually worked and it worked very well. As do most attenuated live virus vaccines. For some reason they chose to go in a different direction which makes no sense to me.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Rat Man on Oct 7th, 2021 at 9:38am
† †My ex roomie Mike works for a hospital system and has cutting edge information. A few weeks he told me about a problem they were encountering... many people got the first shot but never got their second.† I find this incomprehensible. Why would someone do that?† What could possibly be the point when the second one is the money shot that actually does the job?† He said that a lot of the people who didn't get the second shot claimed that they heard about the reactions and were afraid to get it.† So we have a good number of half vaccinated arseholes walking around not really protected who wasted the governments time and money.†

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Hirtius on Oct 7th, 2021 at 1:34pm
My guess is that if you have a high percentage of people vaccinated, then the number of people being treated who are vaccinated will go up. However, the number of deaths and overall hospitalizations will go way down. From everything I have seen, the percentage of people getting sick enough to die is way lower among the vaccinated. I would point out that itís not a silver bullet, it canít always stop you from catching or getting sick. I know thatís the impression people get from vaccines, but it doesnít do that. But if it gets rid of most hospitalizations and deaths? Thatís still incredibly valuable.

I think you have some unrealistic expectations for this disease since other diseases work a certain way in regards to natural immunity. Smallpox is a disease that you can catch once and be immune for life. The smallpox vaccine is a pretty simple vaccine, since it takes advantage of that trait. Other diseases, I think Cholera is like this, can be caught over and over. Covid seems to be capable of reinfecting, and everything Iíve heard so far suggests that any resistance acquired is temporary.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Morphy on Oct 7th, 2021 at 3:57pm
I think you misunderstood my reason for bringing up attenuated vaccines with smallpox vs mrna vaccines with covid. My point was that we have a much more researched vaccine system that not only greatly lessens symptoms just like mrna vaccines can but also give the needed antibodies for your body to kill the virus rather than letting you spread it like wildfire and thus creating a scenario that virtually ensures more deadly variants. If you would like to give your opinion on why the mrna would be the better option by all means please do. But its important you understand the point I was making. Its true the smallpox vaccine was very effective which is great, and yes, we all understand not every vaccine and virus is the same but thats not the crux of the point I was making. Just wanted to clear that up.

Going back to Israel, covid hospitalizations are not all life and death but if you are admitted at the very least you are very sick. As in, serious flu level where you need to be observed to make sure you are stable. Again, why are there "more" vaxed with such severe symptoms vs unvaxed? I didnt see you address this point. I would like to hear your view on that if you have one. That should be an impossibility.

One doesnt go from not sick at all to dead immediately. Therefore hospital admissions should show a pretty 1 to 1 correlation with unaxed showing much higher reprsentation as icu admissions.

Again...not saying the vax doesnt have a purpose. Not saying you shouldnt get it. But the points im making seem to be left unanswered by people because they simply dont have one that maintains their own narratives.


So...lets make this really simple...

Death rates vs vaccination percentage for the top 10 states.






The data is there. If im being super generous Ill just say theres virtually no correlation with increased vax rates to less deaths per capita. Lets just not even mention the amount of top ten vaxed states that are also in that top ten death rates list. That would get messy.† :-?

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Rat Man on Oct 7th, 2021 at 4:02pm
Let's make it really simple:

https://medicalpartnership.usg.edu/covid-19-staggering-statistic-98-to-99-of-americans-dying-are-unvaccinated/

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Morphy on Oct 7th, 2021 at 4:33pm

Rat Man wrote on Oct 7th, 2021 at 4:02pm:
Let's make it really simple:

https://medicalpartnership.usg.edu/covid-19-staggering-statistic-98-to-99-of-americans-dying-are-unvaccinated/


Do you have a direct link to the study?† That would be helpful in seeing both sides.

I will refrain from comenting directly on this until seeing other sources. If this were true that would be great. It does not, however, explain any of the numbers ive given from very solid sources. If it truly is less than 1 percent that are dying in America why the massive difference in other places using the same vaccines with similar populations and medical care.

I never hear answers to these questions.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Morphy on Oct 7th, 2021 at 4:53pm
Oh wait... this is not even a study. Its the associated press doing an analysis of data. Who knows what data they chose to look at and what they didnt. Also didnt see a link but I was expecting at least a scientific study.

So lets be clear here I could also find an article by a news organization to give me whatever result I wanted. I never do that because media is inherently biased. Incredibly so. So with all due respect my good man Ill pass on this one unless it directly links back to something more authoritative and reliable than the media.

If you find a real study showing that I would like to see it. Even with scientific studies, for example with Ivermectin, they can be done in such a way that you can get a whatever result you want if you really want to but at least with the peer reviewed system you have some small measure of opposition to questionable interpretations.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Rat Man on Oct 8th, 2021 at 9:15am
https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/20210629/almost-all-us-covid-19-deaths-now-in-the-unvaccinated

https://nypost.com/2021/09/08/99-percent-of-covid-19-hospitalizations-from-unvaccinated-data/

https://www.firstpost.com/health/unvaccinated-people-are-11-times-more-likely-to-die-from-covid-finds-cdc-study-9960081.html

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2021/07/01/995-of-people-killed-by-covid-in-last-6-months-were-unvaccinated-data-suggests/?sh=6f80feb7493d

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/04/30/fact-check-misleading-claim-deaths-fully-vaccinated-people/4856504001/

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/alberta-severe-outcomes-covid-vaccination-1.6178449

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7034e5.htm

https://www.cnet.com/health/99-of-covid-deaths-are-now-of-unvaccinated-people-experts-say/

https://www.foxnews.com/health/nearly-all-covid-19-deaths-us-unvaccinated

https://www.npr.org/2021/07/16/1017012853/97-of-people-entering-hospitals-for-covid-19-are-unvaccinated

https://www.ibj.com/articles/state-unvaccinated-make-up-huge-percentage-of-covid-deaths-hospitalizations

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/statistics-show-risks-vaccinated-covid-19/story?id=78845627

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by perpetualstudent on Oct 8th, 2021 at 9:43am
Ah that's how they did it"fully vaccinated". So if you had one shot you count as entirely unvaccinated.

The reason it trigger's morphy and my skepticism is because that's too pretty (99%), especially when about half the people hospitalized in the UK were fully vaccinated. Given that, it smells like propaganda.


Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Rat Man on Oct 8th, 2021 at 3:18pm
   Lots of "propaganda" from many reputable sources.  Many more than I listed. 

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Rat Man on Oct 8th, 2021 at 3:24pm
† † Since the subject of abortion has come up here, though God only knows why, I'll add my two cents.†
† † Birth control is a much better option, obviously.† But accidents happen.† Also acts of passion occur.† We don't always think things through.† Then there's rape. So if a woman finds herself accidentally pregnant it is no one's business but hers what she does.† Period.† If you're morally or religiously opposed to abortion then don't have one.† You have no right to tell others how to live. If you want to live in a theocracy then move to Iran.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Morphy on Oct 8th, 2021 at 4:50pm

perpetualstudent wrote on Oct 8th, 2021 at 9:43am:
Ah that's how they did it"fully vaccinated". So if you had one shot you count as entirely unvaccinated.

The reason it trigger's morphy and my skepticism is because that's too pretty (99%), especially when about half the people hospitalized in the UK were fully vaccinated. Given that, it smells like propaganda.


Yep you hit the nail on the head. Papers showing 99% effectiveness and then actual real world numbers that are just wildly out of line with whats stated. And never, ever do you get a logical answer as to why. When your study or theory doesnt match real world results you know its the methodology thats wrong not the real world results. You cant change the one so you must reevaluate the other.

Below is indicative of the constant double speak weve gotten from the government since day 1.

https://odysee.com/@YoungCoconutMusic:a/cdc-says-vaxxed-just-as-likely-to-get-covid-and-spread-it-as-unvaxxed:9



I imagine the vaccine does offer some protection. But how anyone can look at 99% effectiveness and believe that regardless of the evidence to the contrary is beyond me. Theres nothing wrong with admitting something doesnt make sense or perhaps its being oversold to help get people to take it. At the same time dont ignore the fact that what is being said doesnt add up.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Morphy on Oct 8th, 2021 at 6:48pm
Heres a very simple thought experiment for anyone bogged down by all the long posts.

Explain how any country can have the majority of its seriously ill patients as vaccinated if its 99% effective at stopping serious symptoms and death. In fact we need not even mention 99%. Just explain how a large group with significantly "more" protection against the virus can also make up the majority of those seriously ill.

All studies aside that one point should be enough to make you question what you are being told more skeptically.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by IronGoober on Oct 8th, 2021 at 10:05pm

perpetualstudent wrote on Oct 8th, 2021 at 9:43am:
The reason it trigger's morphy and my skepticism is because that's too pretty (99%), especially when about half the people hospitalized in the UK were fully vaccinated. Given that, it smells like propaganda.


Morphy wrote on Oct 8th, 2021 at 6:48pm:
Explain how any country can have the majority of its seriously ill patients as vaccinated


Curious...where is the data showing that half/most of the hospitalized patients are/were vaccinated? that is directly contrary to anything I've seen or heard.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Lightning Jack on Oct 9th, 2021 at 12:42am
@ratman: that makes no sense at all. So if someone is going around raping and murdering other people you would say, ďwell I wouldnít do that but Iím not going to stop them because I shouldnít tell them what to doĒ after they rape and murder your friends and family. It doesnít matter how a person kills someone else whether it be in the womb or not, babies are still human beings inside their mothers womb. Just go back 200 years when there still was slavery in the U.S. they made the same argument. They said ďwell slavery is ok cause black people arenít fully human.Ē Which isnít true. Even putting their baby up for adoption is far better then murdering it because they are selfish and irresponsible. You also were saying something about if a woman is raped and there is a baby, well two wrongs donít make a right, they can always give the baby up for adoption.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by J on Oct 9th, 2021 at 7:37am
Antibody Dependent Enhancement. Vaccination can achieve the opposite effect. Instead of immunity, it increases infection rate and disease when the individual gets reinfected. It has happened in the past with vaccins for Sars / Mers.
it's a serious risk. If this vaccine backfires because it was rushed (on purpose?) it has a serious chance of killing halve the worlds population. The vast amount of women with menstrual problems as a result of it also make me think this is about destroying fertility. The Green pass is about control and indirectly forcing people to the shot. It's not temporary. The crisis that would come as a result of this would also enable a new financial system. The elites of this world make no secret of their desire for 90% population reduction. It is written in stone. Georgia guidestones.† I am really dissaponted by how many on this site so readily took it.
I won't volunteer.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by perpetualstudent on Oct 9th, 2021 at 8:49am
Iron Goober here's the AP rundown on it
https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-492214263305

The UK science chief initially misspoke and called it 60-40 when it was 40-60, either way, it's about half.

The data I've seen from the US is we have a higher % of unvaccinated people in the hospitals but the UK experience (and the Israeli experience) trigger a good deal of skepticism. It wasn't that long after the UK experience that the language started shifting to "protects against hospitalization and death" Bear in mind though that the raw fatality rate is already less than 1% and a huge majority (97% last time I crunched the data from the CDC) were over 65. This virus REALLY takes the older set. What about the 3%? I do want some good research into that. Some is obvious comorbidity or obesity, but my brother who is a nurse has talked about some 40 year old body builders he's cared for in the ICU who didn't make it. What is it that makes you vulnerable to COVID is the question. Thank God, it's not kids.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Morphy on Oct 9th, 2021 at 9:40am

perpetualstudent wrote on Oct 9th, 2021 at 8:49am:
Iron Goober here's the AP rundown on it
https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-492214263305

The UK science chief initially misspoke and called it 60-40 when it was 40-60, either way, it's about half.

The data I've seen from the US is we have a higher % of unvaccinated people in the hospitals but the UK experience (and the Israeli experience) trigger a good deal of skepticism. It wasn't that long after the UK experience that the language started shifting to "protects against hospitalization and death" Bear in mind though that the raw fatality rate is already less than 1% and a huge majority (97% last time I crunched the data from the CDC) were over 65. This virus REALLY takes the older set. What about the 3%? I do want some good research into that. Some is obvious comorbidity or obesity, but my brother who is a nurse has talked about some 40 year old body builders he's cared for in the ICU who didn't make it. What is it that makes you vulnerable to COVID is the question. Thank God, it's not kids.



Do we know if he lowered the percentage because someone reminded him that only 2 vaxes are considered vaccinated? If they are doing their math like that it would be taking cases away from the vaxed side and adding them to the unvaxed which would obviously drastically change the percentages. Anyways just curious.

IG you can google Israel as well. Its all there.

Thing is it shouldnt happen even once. It shouldnt be possible at 99% effectiveness. Clearly no one told the virus.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by J on Oct 9th, 2021 at 10:42am
I believe in Israel 2 jabs no longer count as vaccinated. You have to get 3, and they are already talking about a 4th and 5th and so on. Easy way for them to say the unvaxxed are filling the hospitals that way when the unvaxxed are actually double jabbed.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/in-israel-being-fully-vaccinated-now-means-three-shots-11630426257

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Morphy on Oct 9th, 2021 at 12:21pm

J wrote on Oct 9th, 2021 at 10:42am:
I believe in Israel 2 jabs no longer count as vaccinated. You have to get 3, and they are already talking about a 4th and 5th and so on. Easy way for them to say the unvaxxed are filling the hospitals that way when the unvaxxed are actually double jabbed.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/in-israel-being-fully-vaccinated-now-means-three-shots-11630426257


Yep. Very convenient. If you keep changing the definition of vaxed to mean someone who has all the vaccines that are recommended and change the definition of unvaxed to anything except the maximum you can constantly keep pushing the numbers of unvaxed hospitalizations up and the vaxed down. Thatís some slick bean counting.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Rat Man on Oct 9th, 2021 at 3:32pm

Lightning Jack wrote on Oct 9th, 2021 at 12:42am:
@ratman: that makes no sense at all. So if someone is going around raping and murdering other people you would say, ďwell I wouldnít do that but Iím not going to stop them because I shouldnít tell them what to doĒ after they rape and murder your friends and family. It doesnít matter how a person kills someone else whether it be in the womb or not, babies are still human beings inside their mothers womb. Just go back 200 years when there still was slavery in the U.S. they made the same argument. They said ďwell slavery is ok cause black people arenít fully human.Ē Which isnít true. Even putting their baby up for adoption is far better then murdering it because they are selfish and irresponsible. You also were saying something about if a woman is raped and there is a baby, well two wrongs donít make a right, they can always give the baby up for adoption.


     It makes no sense to you. To most of the rest of the world it makes perfect sense.  Abortion isn't rape or murder.  It's getting rid of an unwanted pregnancy.  An undeveloped fetus is not a sentient human being. 
     Though we disagree totally on this and most likely always will, I can appreciate your point of view until your last statement.  The notion that a woman who has been raped should have the rapist's baby then give it up for adoption is beyond ludicrous.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by perpetualstudent on Oct 9th, 2021 at 4:48pm
You have to be very careful in making additions like "sentient" to get out of "human being". My recently departed Grandfather was not sentient for probably the last 5 years of his life. Nor is "sentience" necessarily there for a newborn.

The divide on this issue is large for a very good reason and invokes deeply felt convictions of conscience, treating it as fete accompli for either side invokes strife at best and violence at worst. Perhaps best to steer clear.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Lightning Jack on Oct 9th, 2021 at 6:53pm
@ratman: there is no such thing as an unwanted pregnancy itís called the people having the baby donít want to be responsible for their actions. If a woman doesnít want to be pregnant then donít get pregnant in the first place itís that simple. But thatís what happens when the public schools take God out of the picture and replace God with the theory of evolution (which is actually a hypothesis by the way). The result is a bunch of selfish, ungrateful, and irresponsible adults.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by IronGoober on Oct 9th, 2021 at 10:49pm

Morphy wrote on Oct 9th, 2021 at 9:40am:
Thing is it shouldnt happen even once. It shouldnt be possible at 99% effectiveness. Clearly no one told the virus.


Studies on the delta variant do not show 99% effectiveness, even in the original strain the numbers were 94 and 95 % for Moderna and Pfizer, respectively. It's much lower, (somewhere around 65% for preventing infection) as they weren't developed for the delta variant.  In my mind, the hospitalization numbers aren't surprising at all. The available vaccinations offer protection, more than none at all, and more than natural immunity, but not 99% protection against infection. Natural immunity has been shown to be less effective than vaccination according to the CDC, and yes, the CDC has had a number of missteps in their handling of this pandemic, but they are still my most trusted source for information.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by J on Oct 10th, 2021 at 5:00am
I'd agree with you and say they are the most trusted, but not the most trustworthy.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by perpetualstudent on Oct 10th, 2021 at 9:05am
Curious IG, where are you pulling Natural Immunity less than vaccination? Last I saw the official line was "natural immunity + vaccination" offered the best resistance and natural immunity better than vaccination (which is normative for disease in general). Some countries, notably Switzerland, accept recovery from covid as being as good as a vaccine.




Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Rat Man on Oct 10th, 2021 at 9:09am

Lightning Jack wrote on Oct 9th, 2021 at 6:53pm:
@ratman: there is no such thing as an unwanted pregnancy itís called the people having the baby donít want to be responsible for their actions. If a woman doesnít want to be pregnant then donít get pregnant in the first place itís that simple. But thatís what happens when the public schools take God out of the picture and replace God with the theory of evolution (which is actually a hypothesis by the way). The result is a bunch of selfish, ungrateful, and irresponsible adults.


† †† Accidents happen, birth controls fail, rapes occur,† etc., etc.† Though I agree that many times irresponsible actions are the cause, accidental, unwanted pregnancies do occur through no fault of the participants. Living in your own fantasy world because it suits your agenda doesn't change reality.†
† †† You seem to want to really cover the whole gamut in one thread.† Sooo, as far as God in our public schools, that violates our constitution. Did you ever read our constitution?
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/separation_of_church_and_state#:~:text=Separation%20of%20church%20and%20state%20Separation%20of%20Church,state%20as%20the%20third%20president%20of%20the%20U.S.
† †Which God do you want to put in our public schools?† Zoroaster? Zeus?† Buda? Allah?† Odin? Thor?† †You probably mean your Christian god.† Thankfully our constitution prevents zealots and other weirdos from inflicting their superstitions and religious hypocrisies† on our school children.† There are Catholic, Christian, Jewish, etc. schools for those who wish for their children to have a religious education.† In schools paid for with my hefty taxes no god has any place.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by IronGoober on Oct 10th, 2021 at 11:43am
I realize studies are not the most definitive source for information but here is the CDC site. [url]. https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html [/url]

This was back in August. As of today, I just read a synopsis of another study that points at natural immunity being more effective than vaccination in terms of the white blood cell response (vaccinations were found to produce more antibodies in this study). But, With everything in flux in terms of virus mutations and waning immunity, it seems to me like even if natural immunity is better, being vaccinated will help reduce transmission. And that's what this (viral) war is all about, reducing transmission so the virus has fewer chances to mutate and spread.


Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Lightning Jack on Oct 10th, 2021 at 1:59pm
@ratman: I have read the entire constitution dozens of times. Teaching The theory of evolution is in violation of the constitution as well (assuming you mean the 1st amendment) because it technically is a religion because it isnít true and there is an overwhelming amount of evidence to disprove it, therefore you have to believe that it is true. It actually would be more likely that a meteor hit an iron mine and create a skyscraper than evolution to even think about being true. And how does an infinitesimal dot of nothing explode into everything anyway? The same way that you feel about your tax money is the same way I feel about mine, if we canít agree then donít teach any of it.

Iím not trying to make enemies on the forum Iím just telling you my take on these topics, which many people would agree with me, you should try watching a couple of Kent Hovind videos on YouTube, he can explain some things better than me. Anyway, like I said before Iím not trying to start a war on the forum, and this will prolly be my last post on this topic.


Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Rat Man on Oct 10th, 2021 at 2:13pm

Lightning Jack wrote on Oct 10th, 2021 at 1:59pm:
@ratman: I have read the entire constitution dozens of times. Teaching The theory of evolution is in violation of the constitution as well (assuming you mean the 1st amendment) because it technically is a religion because it isnít true and there is an overwhelming amount of evidence to disprove it, therefore you have to believe that it is true. It actually would be more likely that a meteor hit an iron mine and create a skyscraper than evolution to even think about being true. And how does an infinitesimal dot of nothing explode into everything anyway? The same way that you feel about your tax money is the same way I feel about mine, if we canít agree then donít teach any of it.

Iím not trying to make enemies on the forum Iím just telling you my take on these topics, which many people would agree with me, you should try watching a couple of Kent Hovind videos on YouTube, he can explain some things better than me. Anyway, like I said before Iím not trying to start a war on the forum, and this will prolly be my last post on this topic.



We are not enemies. Your opinion is welcome and disagreement here on the forum is fine, as long as it's done in a civilized manner.† Evolution is a theory.† Theories aren't religions.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/theory

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/religion


I am very interested in your evidence that disproves evolution.† Please enlighten us.†

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by perpetualstudent on Oct 10th, 2021 at 5:32pm

IronGoober wrote on Oct 10th, 2021 at 11:43am:
I realize studies are not the most definitive source for information but here is the CDC site. [url]. https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html [/url]
This was back in August.

I think you misunderstood what the study says they're comparing natural immunity to
"those who were fully vaccinated after initially contracting the virus"

They aren't comparing natural immunity to vaccinated, they're comparing natural immunity to natural immunity + vaccine. The misleading bits are rarely in the methods (though that's possible) generally it lies in the definitions.

RM while you say that his opinion is welcome the thrust of your posts doesn't agree. Perhaps it would be best to let it lie.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by JudoP on Oct 11th, 2021 at 5:03am
Sweet lord this thread went downhill.

My view of the freedom vs social spectrum- it's a balance.

If you want absolute freedom then you won't be able to live with other people, if you want absolute social cohesion then you lose freedom completely.

Yearning for absolute freedom is as foolish as yearning for total social cohesion/control. Your actions affect others, that's simply a fact. If you want to act exactly how you please then there are plenty of wildernesses to flourish in without human society holding you back.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Sarosh on Oct 11th, 2021 at 9:00am

JudoP wrote on Oct 11th, 2021 at 5:03am:
If you want to act exactly how you please then there are plenty of wildernesses to flourish in without human society holding you back.

I dont know if you read it all.
the idea is to escape to wilderness. when I posted this my country had measures that made that illegal. Following a covid quarantine pattern every 2 weeks they renewed the measures prohibiting access to wilderness without making any decent effort to fight what caused the problem(fire), fearmongering or top down terrorism won again. it's like training to be afraid what you are told to be afraid of. The question was any countries that dont do that? based on governments and peoples response to covid.

areas with very low population density like deserts and tundra means that these kind of measures cannot be enforced so they win by default.
the more interesting is to find a place in the temperate zone that has people but the government doesn't interfere too much in their lives.

capitalist countries are adopting the worst practices of socialism willingly, if we are going socialist we need a plan or we end up totalitarian, I see no plans so...

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Morphy on Oct 11th, 2021 at 3:52pm

Sarosh wrote on Oct 11th, 2021 at 9:00am:

JudoP wrote on Oct 11th, 2021 at 5:03am:
If you want to act exactly how you please then there are plenty of wildernesses to flourish in without human society holding you back.
, if we are going socialist we need a plan or we end up totalitarian, I see no plans so...


Looking back on this thread I wonder if covid is really even the issue. Perhaps this is the real issue. That is the ability to argue that we are actually heading in that direction. If you cant convince people that there is a real danger of approaching totalitarianism virtually nothing else you say matters.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Hirtius on Oct 14th, 2021 at 12:00am
Great point Morphy. But where does the totalitarianism come from? I think thatís the danger, assuming that totalitarianism would come from an existing institution. If I was a totalitarian leader, I would convince people that the experts or others that challenge me are not to be believed. I would probably also try to convince them the other side is totalitarian, muddy the waters a little bit and look like both sides have equal weight. In my experience, many of the people I know who are most concerned with ďtotalitarianismĒ are the most likely to support it, because theyíd put the totalitarian in power who wouldnít put their head on the chopping block. That is not a dig on you Morphy, because I donít know you well, itís just a general observation from others Iíve been around.

If it sounds like there are political undertones in that statement, Iíll be a bit more blatant. The coup attempt in my country did not come from those advocating for Covid measures, it came from those opposing them.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by IronGoober on Oct 14th, 2021 at 12:13am

perpetualstudent wrote on Oct 10th, 2021 at 5:32pm:

IronGoober wrote on Oct 10th, 2021 at 11:43am:
I realize studies are not the most definitive source for information but here is the CDC site. [url]. https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html [/url]
This was back in August.

I think you misunderstood what the study says they're comparing natural immunity to
"those who were fully vaccinated after initially contracting the virus"

They aren't comparing natural immunity to vaccinated, they're comparing natural immunity to natural immunity + vaccine. The misleading bits are rarely in the methods (though that's possible) generally it lies in the definitions.

RM while you say that his opinion is welcome the thrust of your posts doesn't agree. Perhaps it would be best to let it lie.

You are right, I did miss that point.

I still think hesitation to get the vaccine, which has been shown to be effective, because you already have natural immunity is silly, though. If one has an option to doubly protect oneself and those around them (by reducing the chance of transmission) from something that has been proven to kill about 1% of those it infects, why wouldn't one?? The virus is way more probable to cause harmful effects (both short and long term) than the vaccine at this point, and there is lots of data to back that up. That's my thought anyway.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Sarosh on Oct 14th, 2021 at 3:45am

Morphy wrote on Oct 11th, 2021 at 3:52pm:
I wonder if covid is really even the issue


covid deadly or not once enough people were afraid of it, it was a great opportunity for radical change. every tragedy if it makes people emotional it's an opportunity for more power.


Hirtius wrote on Oct 14th, 2021 at 12:00am:
I would probably also try to convince them the other side is totalitarian, muddy the waters a little bit and look like both sides have equal weight.

both sides in all countries have muddied the waters, both are different sides of the same coin they are the politicians.
the people are willing to sacrifice their identity or freedom to feel a little safe, that they belong somewhere that is fertile ground for totalitarianism. Politicians were always the same, at this point it is not the politicians being the ones who change it is the people.


Hirtius wrote on Oct 14th, 2021 at 12:00am:
The coup attempt in my country did not come from those advocating for Covid measures, it came from those opposing them.

more of those who didn't pick sides before now pick one, both sides have an excuse to stop negotiating with each other so both sides want the same thing.


Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by perpetualstudent on Oct 14th, 2021 at 10:34am
You wind up in a nice little bind when you start talking about unknowable future states.  The way I've seen it put, on the same webpage no less is "we don't know the long term effects of Covid so get vaccinated" and "we know there are no long term negative effects from the vaccine so get vaccinated". There's an element of inability to know but you can't invoke it in such a biased manner (the medical spokespeople, not you IG). It's that kind of grade school manipulation (heads I win, tails you lose) that is decimating trust in science.


Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by IronGoober on Oct 14th, 2021 at 11:13am

perpetualstudent wrote on Oct 14th, 2021 at 10:34am:
There's an element of inability to know but you can't invoke it in such a biased manner (the medical spokespeople, not you IG). It's that kind of grade school manipulation (heads I win, tails you lose) that is decimating trust in science.

I agree with the your statement "inability to know". But I think this is the case with the future in general. I think that probabilities are what should be examined. No one can know the future and so one must weigh risk based on probability (Since we are not all capable of calculating individual risks, we must do this through perceived risk). i.e. dying in an airplane crash has a very historically low probability so most people are comfortable with flying. But from what I understand, having long term complications/adverse effects from contracting COVID is much more probable than having complications from a vaccine (I say a vaccine in the general sense). While this vaccine is indeed "new' to the general population (mRNA), many of the methods have existed for many years. Compounded with the history of vaccines being safe (mostly, I realize there are cases where adverse short and long term effects were seen with some vaccines), in my opinion, the probability of having any adverse long term effects from the COVID vaccine are much less than from contracting the disease itself. So the perceived risk from the vaccine should be lower than the disease itself. But that doesn't seem to be the case for many people, many are more worried about the vaccine than the disease and it doesn't make sense to me.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by perpetualstudent on Oct 14th, 2021 at 2:57pm
It's the biased nature of the communication, the doubletalk and the quick turnarounds. And that piles on to the distrust beforehand which dials nicely into existing political differences.

People might take that argument more seriously except they watched the official lines change
"there are no side effects and it's 99% effective and will give herd immunity if enough get it"
"ok there are some side effects but they're minor and it's 95% effective but cannot grant herd immunity"
"ok there have been some fatalities but it's 77% effective at keeping you out of the hospital"
and I'm expecting now
"ok, on the balance you're safer getting it and it's more than 50% effective as long as you get your yearly shot"

It's no good to say "but we were just doing good science" there was not enough caution in what they claimed and people are seeing a pattern and extending it. Are most of them capable of that line of reasoning? Of course not. I'd bet fewer than 1 in 10 could explain a standard deviation or least squares regression. And that's kind of the point, they trusted the officials to do that for them and now they see either incompetence or lying. Either way you get the loss in confidence.

The philosophers of science have been talking about Science's reformation for years now COVID has been the brick that broke the camel's back. I think we'll look back on it as we do Luther nailing his theses to the church door.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by IronGoober on Oct 14th, 2021 at 8:13pm
I can appreciate the doubt from changing the official statements, but as far as I can tell, the changing statement were due to transparency about what was known at the time. Each statement was revised as more data was known. The virus was changing as time went on, which necessitated changing the official statements. 95% effectiveness was against the original strain. Delta changed everything and the official numbers had to change reflect the new state of what was known/estimated.† So, essentially, you are surmising that they were too transparent and that it actually degraded confidence (am I interpreting that right?)

So what do you think would have been better? more conservative estimates? Herd immunity was a best guess from what I've seen, but at the time, I think it was assumed that immunity from re-infection would last longer, both natural and vaccine-induced.† What do you think would have been a better approach?

I'm curious what you mean about Science's reformation? I know there is plenty I don't like in the field of peer review... but what are you referring to, can you expand on that, because I'm unfamiliar.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by perpetualstudent on Oct 14th, 2021 at 11:18pm
No, the scientists who developed the vaccine said they never expected it to stop infection, which is the pre-requisite to herd immunity. That's baked into the models. I linked that story earlier, it was Reuter's that reported it. So you can choose whether it was lie or incompetency but incorrect transparency isn't on the table. And neither can blaming it on delta. We already knew the virus was mutating and would further. The best face you can put is that knowing your only chance was huge immediate vaccination to try to get herd immunity, you lied to get it because the truth wouldn't move the herd. But then you lose the only saving grace of science which is that it speaks Truth, not politics.


That leads to your next question, the philosophers of science, are the academics asking "what is science? How do we do differentiate between pseudo-science and outdated science and True Science?", a lot of that discussion started with Kuhn but kept going albeit without much fanfare. It winds up a thorny question where all the pat answers are wrong (although I would argue Skinner's answer is the best I've seen). The philosophers who have been seriously discussing it, have talked about an analogy to  "the reformation". The time when an institution goes from being allowed to speak indisputable Truth, to when they the lose the confidence of the people and counter interpretations start. Mainly philosophy, some biologists and historians, the odd sociologist gets involved.

Ultimately, scientists made claims, are continuing to make claims, that are not properly limited and it is those overstatements that are killing the trust. I don't buy that it was honest mistakes because of the screwing around with definitions. You read that CDC study as it was meant to be read, to leave you with the conclusion that the vaccine was better even though that's not what the definitions were. The shift in language from "protects against infection at X%" to "protects against hospitalization" is another similar one. These stories are not saying "the protection wanes faster than we'd hoped and we wildly over-estimated long term efficacy but still seem robust against hospitalization" the goalposts are changed. That isn't science, it's PR, or put more bluntly manipulation. Even now your estimate for the fatality rate is at least 2x greater than the data show, possibly as much as 5x. Nor do people understand that well over 90% of the fatalities are over 65 at least in the US (I want to say 97% last time I looked at the data from the CDC).

This post is already too long but most people aren't going to go this deep. They are either going to keep jumping as the official lines change and say "it was the best data we had" or say "these people are lying", each jump more people move into that second category as they see (or think they see) a pattern.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by IronGoober on Oct 17th, 2021 at 1:57am
From my perspective, manipulation to a degree that was nefarious was not present. More that manipulation that is present in most information that is shared with the public was present. Yes, experts didn't expect the vaccine to be 100% effective, and they knew its effectiveness would wane with time. But as an extreme example, one doesn't write an abstract to a scientific paper with all of the caveats of one's discovery. "We discovered this new method to improve X (caveat: it doesn't work in when its raining outside, and since it is for areas of the South eastern US, this makes it useful only in certain cases).  One would just write about the usefulness of the new method to advertise it.  Why would you try and tell people about all of the problems with the vaccine when it wouldn't have changed any of the facts that it would decrease in effectiveness? There was the hope that it would turn the pandemic around, sharing the bad news wouldn't likely have affected most people's decision to take it.  Again, from my perspective any lack of information wasn't manipulation beyond what occurs in any other forms of public information such as news, advertisements, etc. 

Ok, I understand. On that note, a problem with talking about "Truth" in science, is that science itself is an just an interpretation of data. There is no "Truth" there is just what we haven't proven to be false.  Theories cannot be proven, only shown that they are not false.  That is a fundamental problem with science. You have to have some level of trust of the "experts". Even when you are learning something new, you have to trust that what you are being taught is actually true and that someone before you figured out what is true (or at least that it hasn't been proven false).  You can test it yourself, but there is just too much in the universe to test if you ever want to make progress.  It seems that it is very easy to go down that rabbit hole deeply (i.e. of distrust) if trust in experts is lost (take the flat earth theory for example).

The fatality probability I was using is just deaths/known cases. Known cases vs real cases is underestimated, so yes, the actual death rate is lower, but I'm dubious that it's 5x lower.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Morphy on Oct 17th, 2021 at 1:23pm

Sarosh wrote on Oct 14th, 2021 at 3:45am:

Morphy wrote on Oct 11th, 2021 at 3:52pm:
I wonder if covid is really even the issue


covid deadly or not once enough people were afraid of it, it was a great opportunity for radical change. every tragedy if it makes people emotional it's an opportunity for more power.


Covid is definitely deadly but for the vast majority of cases its the 65 and over. Our reaction to it has, imho, been greatly exaggerated. It will be interesting to see how big a part the vaccine passport plays in our lives. We are seeing supply chain slow downs in America so its effects have not been fully felt as well. Hopefully we are headed towards mending from covid.

You could look at Africa or South America if you are really interested.† South America has some really nice areas with nice houses for a relatively low cost of living.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Morphy on Oct 17th, 2021 at 6:10pm

Hirtius wrote on Oct 14th, 2021 at 12:00am:
That is not a dig on you Morphy, because I donít know you well, itís just a general observation from others Iíve been around.

If it sounds like there are political undertones in that statement, Iíll be a bit more blatant. The coup attempt in my country did not come from those advocating for Covid measures, it came from those opposing them.


Hmm. But doesnt the black community have a large portion that are refusing to be jabbed? They are almost all left leaning so it might have less to do with politics for people than you think.

As for the other, I dont really take sides in that. Im not really sure what it has to do with the subject at hand either. Kick them all out I say.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by J on Oct 20th, 2021 at 2:54pm
Intriguing data....! If this is true, we're in for a HELL of a ride the coming months.
https://theexpose.uk/2021/10/15/its-worse-than-we-thought-fully-covid-vaccinated-ade/

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by J on Oct 20th, 2021 at 3:05pm
It's absoutely mindbaffling crazy to think, but I believe this winter and spring we are to witness death of more than a billion people. It's something i had to come to terms with and grasping for over a year now, to prepare mentally. I am not going to start hiding my thoughts on this.
†I hope I am wrong, I really do.

I don't mind being called a conspiritard or a religious nutcase. I wish you vaccinated nothing but the best, even though I get extreme hate and flack from them in the real world. I will not hate them back because to me they are victims. Lead to the slaugherhouse by the Godless rulers of this world. In the end we will see what this trust in the world and science will lead to. One thing I am sure of, In this day to be a rebel means to be a devout Christian !


Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by JudoP on Oct 21st, 2021 at 7:00am

Sarosh wrote on Oct 11th, 2021 at 9:00am:
I dont know if you read it all.
the idea is to escape to wilderness. when I posted this my country had measures that made that illegal. Following a covid quarantine pattern every 2 weeks they renewed the measures prohibiting access to wilderness without making any decent effort to fight what caused the problem(fire), fearmongering or top down terrorism won again. it's like training to be afraid what you are told to be afraid of. The question was any countries that dont do that? based on governments and peoples response to covid.

areas with very low population density like deserts and tundra means that these kind of measures cannot be enforced so they win by default.
the more interesting is to find a place in the temperate zone that has people but the government doesn't interfere too much in their lives.

capitalist countries are adopting the worst practices of socialism willingly, if we are going socialist we need a plan or we end up totalitarian, I see no plans so...


I'm sorry you can't do that in your country, my comment was slightly tongue in cheek anyway. I think anywhere there are humans people will gather into society and make rules, laws, norms that help the society work better. The only way to escape that is to escape other humans.

I personally see no danger of socialism. There is a tension between public health benefit and individual personal freedoms in my view, that is all. It is a compromise like many complex issues.


Morphy wrote on Oct 11th, 2021 at 3:52pm:
Looking back on this thread I wonder if covid is really even the issue. Perhaps this is the real issue. That is the ability to argue that we are actually heading in that direction. If you cant convince people that there is a real danger of approaching totalitarianism virtually nothing else you say matters.


With my comment I tried to hit at the heart of the matter- freedom vs social behaviour.

I don't see any danger of totalitarianism in this. Indeed not even close. There have been pandemics before, measures taken before, temporary constrictions of freedom.
From my perspective in the UK it seems that the PM was always keen to remove the measures as soon as possible, even before it was wise to in my view. There was clearly democratic pressure to do so, this is working as intended no?

I have a friend who left this country because he was worried about the restrictions. I think in the fullness of time this will prove to be unnecessary.


Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Morphy on Oct 21st, 2021 at 7:29am
I hope you are right JudoP.. If im going to be a fool for something I hope it will be in this.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Sarosh on Oct 21st, 2021 at 8:21am

JudoP wrote on Oct 21st, 2021 at 7:00am:
I personally see no danger of socialism. There is a tension between public health benefit and individual personal freedoms in my view, that is all. It is a compromise like many complex issues.


I see socialism as a tool, if its good or bad depends on how you use it and the results you get. the right wing here applies socialist-like politics for its benefit, maybe you can see it happening in other western countries too.

thanks for taking the time to answer. I could go more in depth but I'm a little tired of political discussions.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Kick on Oct 21st, 2021 at 8:29am

Sarosh wrote on Oct 21st, 2021 at 8:21am:
I could go more in depth but I'm a little tired of political discussions.

I agree 100% with this.

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Morphy on Oct 21st, 2021 at 10:45pm

Kick wrote on Oct 21st, 2021 at 8:29am:

Sarosh wrote on Oct 21st, 2021 at 8:21am:
I could go more in depth but I'm a little tired of political discussions.

I agree 100% with this.


I agree with the sentiment. Shall we move on to religion now?  ;)

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Oct 22nd, 2021 at 6:25pm

Morphy wrote on Oct 21st, 2021 at 10:45pm:

Kick wrote on Oct 21st, 2021 at 8:29am:

Sarosh wrote on Oct 21st, 2021 at 8:21am:
I could go more in depth but I'm a little tired of political discussions.

I agree 100% with this.


I agree with the sentiment. Shall we move on to religion now?† ;)


Letís just go straight to everyoneís favorite topicÖ naked men!

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by Morphy on Oct 22nd, 2021 at 9:29pm

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Oct 22nd, 2021 at 6:25pm:

Morphy wrote on Oct 21st, 2021 at 10:45pm:

Kick wrote on Oct 21st, 2021 at 8:29am:

Sarosh wrote on Oct 21st, 2021 at 8:21am:
I could go more in depth but I'm a little tired of political discussions.

I agree 100% with this.


I agree with the sentiment. Shall we move on to religion now?† ;)


Letís just go straight to everyoneís favorite topicÖ naked men!


Naked men actually may be a new one for us. Lead us off my man.  :D

Title: Re: Any country that values freedom over safety?
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Oct 23rd, 2021 at 4:08pm
WellÖ somebody must get the conversation started  🤷‍♂️

C4413305-8C1A-4221-B83F-FC2BDFAAF668.jpeg (89 KB | 1 )

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