Every pendelum-swing has vectors in all directions and we have to release at exactly the right vector that is in line with our target.  Due to release delay, the vector that is inline with our target is no longer the vector that we have to release at. We have to release a few vectors before that, in order to compensate. And with this compensation we hope to hit the right vector that is inline with our target. The problem comes with this compensation. We can train ourselves to compensate very consistently. But now factor in differences in sling projectile shapes and even sling constructions.

These again differ the way we must compensate. This release compensation makes the regular sling we are used to a tricky thing. A much simpler sort of sling would be one without release compensation. One that allows us to release on the same vector that is in line with our target, or at least as close to it as possible. The closer the vector we release at is to the vector that is inline with the target, the more intuitive a sling becomes in my view. A bola perdida is a sling that releases exactly inline with the vector. It makes accuracy at 10 meters super easy. The Y-sling comes close to it. But it also has a slight release delay, but only slight. This delay is a necessary evil, again, not to get rifle spin this time, but to get retention on the projectile during the swing. We can't sacrifice every bit of pouch security in order to get even less release delay. The pouch is there for a reason. To retain.

I am going to the sling cage soon and try out a new Y-sling I am constructing, with rubber baseballs
captive release as well. I don't see any reason for a fly out release cord on them.
I have noticed reduced range with Y-slings due to lack of bullet spin. I think the range tops out at about 150 meters with the Y-sling, 150 grams projectile weight and an average slinger.

Switching back and forth between this type sling and friction sling really makes you see how much delay in the release there is with the latter. This delay is a necessary evil to get spiral spin, which , just makes small ovoid sling stones disappear in the horizon with the rifling-sling.

I think I have to come to terms with the fact that both sling types are really unique and useful for their respective domains.  The Incas never stopped using bolas just because they also had  slings.  The Y-sling can definitely replace the bola perdida. Make it captive release and you got very unique type of hunting tool, one that is very silent as well. Even the projectile, due to the lack of hard spin flies silently. The captive release makes it more useful in areas with a lot of growth. The animal would never hear the stone coming.  The possibilities it gives for hunting are great. I can no longer ignore it.

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I’m gonna build myself a y-sling. I’m yet to really experiment with them, they definitely have some attributes that seem appealing. Not sure they’re a better design but something worth playing with

J you should consider revisiting the asymmetric sling I sent you. It’s a compromise design that tries to balance fast release, good retention, and insensitivity to ammo size/shape. It would also be pretty easy to put stiffer cords on it if you don’t like the thin ones it came with.

Pouch designs for regular slings would be a subject for a different thread I suppose.
That being said I've tried many shapes and sizes, asymmetric and symmetric. They all work more or less the same. Cant'say I favour the assymetric pouch. I prefer the simple aussie pouch for cupped and the simple oval leather pouch for flat with 2.5~mm leather, with a firm and tight cord-loop attachment to the pouch. Preferred cords have become ~4mm 4 strand round braid sisal.

An assymetric pouch would only serve its purpose if one halve of the projectile sits in the cupped side, and the other halve on the flat side. But if the  projectile just sits in or on the cupped side completely, function wise it's just a regular cupped pouch and no different in practice than an Aussie pouch really

So are you looking into this again mainly for accuracy?

AncientCraftwork wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 12:06pm:

An assymetric pouch would only serve its purpose if one halve of the projectile sits in the cupped side, and the other halve on the flat side.

Yes.That’s exactly the point of an asymmetric pouch. It releases faster because the flat side moves out of the way more easily than a cupped pouch, but the cupped retention side holds ammo better during windup. It’s not as fast as a Y sling, but it’s also not as picky about ammo.

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 4:29pm:

AncientCraftwork wrote on Aug 16th, 2021 at 12:06pm: An assymetric pouch would only serve its purpose if one halve of the projectile sits in the cupped side, and the other halve on the flat side. Yes.That’s exactly the point of an asymmetric pouch. It releases faster because the flat side moves out of the way more easily than a cupped pouch, but the cupped retention side holds ammo better during windup. It’s not as fast as a Y sling, but it’s also not as picky about ammo.

I swapped  to Thomas/Jax his T-pouch design for Y-slings. It's not picky about ammo. Much better than some of the minimal Y-pouches I made in the past. This was a mistake I made- I focused on eliminating all friction, to the point that my pouches were no logner secure.  A sling pouch cannot serve his purpose if it does not retain the projectile. Especially during the powerstroke.

Morphy wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 1:30pm:

So are you looking into this again mainly for accuracy?

For short distances yes. I have gotten used to the feel of captive release. The no ''tug'' feeling. I enjoy using this sling a lot.
it's very simple in operation, not having to think about pouch orientation and all. It's like slinging a stone with a cord tied to it. But the benefit being that upon release there is no trailing cord. The release is very direct.

Don't get me wrong, oval projectiles slung by a ''rifle sling'' or conventional sling, with the right pouch orientation, result in much lower drag coefficient and thus a higher perceivable speed and less speed-drop over distance. This is a serious edge of the conventional sling over the y-sling.  But likewise this release compensation with a ''rifle-sling'' is what makes accuracy, especially with random ammo, a never ending battle.

One thing that drew me back is the captive release. I am seriously falling in love with it. It makes longer slings much more practical. It just took some time to get used to and an open mind.
Captive release can also be used on conventional slings, but if the orientation is not right it can lead to very dangerous situations, with the ammo not releasing but getting hooked by the release cord and then flying exactly 120 degrees the other way I was aiming  ;D I've had this happen and missed a neighbours window by a few cm, I concluded captive release is not fit for conventional slings.

So correct me if im wrong here J but does a captive release, release the projectile with the sling cords in line with the target? As opposed to being perpendicular to it? Ive always kind of avoided looking into this design because it seems so different than the normal design I would be afraid of switching back and forth and making accuracy with my normal sling even harder to maintain. As always when speaking of slings is more "accuracy" than accuracy but you get what im saying.  ;)

I would say that the Y-sling is indeed the ideal sling for in-line type of throws, hence the best projectile for it is the spherical

Doesn't mean that you can't spiral ovals with it because if you use a Y-sling in a certain way you can do it, sort of, but I don't think it's the ideal sling for it.  But anyone who further develops this or can do it effectively has my praise

Similarily throwing in-line with a regular sling is possible with the right conditions, but it's not really suited for it.

Morphy, I don't think using this sling is going to effect using the other type negatively perse. it's just a matter of dialing in more release compensation when you swap back to the normal sling. Just like if you were to swap to a lighter or heavier than usual stone with your regular sling, you'd have to redial your release compensation.  So if you got no quails about using different sizes of ammo in regular slings, or different regular slings for that matter, then using the Y-sling for a while isn't going to have any different effect.

All good points man. I guess I should take a look at it. It would be interesting to do several target sessions with each and see if there is a big accuracy distance for me.

One thing I have noticed immediately is that the difference in release compensation in a Y-sling between variable ammo weights is much smaller than this difference in a normal sling.

In other words, the different release compensation between light and heavy stones is smaller in a Y-sling than the difference in release compensation when swapping between light and heavy stones in a regular sling.

With the regular sling it takes a few adjustment shots, at least for me, when I swap from light to heavy stones. With the Y-sling this adjustment is still there but it's much smaller to barely feeling like I have to adjust my release compensation between light and heavy at all, if that makes sense. Because there's barely any release compensation going on with this sling type in the first place. This helps with inconsistent ammo.


edit: changed ''release timing'' to ''release compensation'' because the latter is a better description of what I meant

Now, that is an interesting observation. I'll have to go try this and see if I notice the same.

@NOOC. Y-sling pouches are actually ideal for halve cupped, halve flat pouches.
I noticed that on Jax & Thomas his designs, that the single leg of the "T'' pouch shape, can be made up of multiple legs, overlapped together to form a cup, or more simply as I did, fold them together to make it cupped.
This way halve of the ball is in the folded section and the other side in the flat section.
Works superbly for retention and has no ill effects on release because it's released in-line the other way of the cupped part.

This pouch is made of an odd material,  old East German communist fabric that has some sort of polymerized waterproof layer on the back, tough stuff, very light and no stretch which I like.

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Can't put it to words just how great this Y-sling is working out for me at shorter distances. It's helps so darn much with inconsistent ammo. I don't think the accuracy with standard sling is any worse if uniform ammo is used and the release is compensated... but this sling is so much more forgiving for inconsistent ammo.
I am getting more convinced this is a more effective sling for hunting, due the silent nature and the captive release. I am getting more and more used to the feel of this release system nd I am not really missing the fly out release cord. That being said I know I should really  comp my enthusiasm because of my behavior in the past.. but I am glad I've improved some of the design mistakes I implemented in this design earlier.

I am starting to think, had this sling type been known to more cultures and peoples, the sling would've been far greater adoption even as an apt replacement for bows in many cases, especially in cases where there is just too little space to sling with a fly out release cord.
If time permits I will make more videos demonstrating it, it definitely deserves it. I am spending quite some time on my fishing nets at the moment besides slinging and other things
video's are the only thing that are really a good contribution because talk aint much especially my rambling considering my history on this site.

So yeah, a case can be made that this was the acheaen sling design, it's the only sling design that is truly set apart. Sure, there can be definitely differences in feel between conventional slings. But at the end ofthe day they are the same thing. A long cord, or strap, with the ammo balanced in the middle. The ammo has to pass by the cord or the strap. The Y-sling is the only different type. It releasees the ammo through the sling and not besides it, at the moment of trigger. For 50 meter accuracy, I don't think that rifling is important granted the stone is of sufficient weight to punch through the air. I can wholly believe this design be the contributor to the written feats of the achaean slingers. But... it's speculation. If anything an interesting anecdote. It aint going anywhere and if it's truly better time will proof it
it would certainly have been a blast we would all get together in Balearic islands one day but it doesn't seem like that's going to be possible any more, any time soon, or possible ever again.

Interestingly I found an old rusty ball in a box today and decided to sling it with my apache sling. Obviously rusty balls having an outside of rubber have a lot of friction, especially against the leather pouch of the apache.

As one might expect my shots were going way left as if I was releasing very late although I wasnt. This was just the effect of the ammo releasing later from friction.

It makes me wonder how much of the slings difficulty in accuracy is an assortment of little things like this. Because this is a relatively severe case but what about ammo that has just slightly more friction? Or less for that matter? And what if that is just one of half a dozen things that is changing from one shot to the next?

I really think thats probably a big part of the difficulty. Theres an assortment of things that all play a part and those variables can and probably do change consistently from one shot to the next. Gripping the release cord at a slightly different spot. Rotor at a slightly different angle, ammo friction or any number of other things.

Not so much as to make it obvious that thats what is going on but enough to make aiming really difficult.

If your shots go to the left, you have too much strength in your arm.  It has nothing to do with friction.  Higher friction from rubber only means more grip and spine.  The moment you let go, the bullet will fly.  If your shots go too far to the right, you're wrong.  Your hip points in the direction of the shot.

While I will try to experiment with what you are saying Jaegoor my only issue with it is I had no such shooting to the left with ammo of the same weight that wasnt rusty balls. That makes me think it has more to do with the grippiness of the ammo.

I agree Morphy.  My favorite sling for ice balls (leather pouch and paracord cords) doesn't work well with rusty balls.  It's the red pouched sling that's in a lot of my videos.  The pouch has a pretty good cup to it, which makes it great for ice and other smooth spheres.  It can be used for rusty balls, but they're less likely to come out cleanly.  I don't mean that they can't be thrown cleanly with that sling.  But I think a good way to put it is the combo is "less forgiving" than with a less restrictive pouch.

Well I've figured how to put a spiral spin on ovals with the Y sling, and it's actually very simple and it works well.

I still think this sling type is optimized for in-line throwing with spheres, but this is definitely sweet to know.

Joe, that makes sense. Ive noticed on slings that are completely flat that they do tend to be more likely to drop really smooth stones. Makes sense that the amount of cupping might be dictated by the friction induced by the ammo.

I constantly have this feeling that tuning the sling and ammo is at least as important as tuning bows and arrows. This must be what it felt like to be an "Archery Expert" in the 1200s. You know theres more going on but no one person could figure out the complicated balance between all the things that change arrow point of impact.

I think we are in the 1200s for sling tuning.  :P

The french archeologists during their tests aim right because they noted that the slingstones go to the left. Friction or inexperience ?
Being an "expert" is also knowing how to doubt. Jaegoor may be right.
Several parameters can be the cause of this drift to the left.

:-/

Im not sure how else to test it except using ammo of the same weight and shape but drastically different friction coefficients. i.e.- rubber covered ammo vs something like ice or very smooth stones. Seems like by doing that you can pretty easily test for yourself.

Make sure to also use the same sling of course.  :)

I made a y sling about a year ago but a little different design than yours but I also noticed how accurate it was at close range I just never got the time to keep experimenting with the design 

Which side of the pouch is the release side ?

The projectile rolls out through the two legs of the ''Y'' or ''T" shape pouch.
I've come to prefer the T-shape pouch over the Y-shape but the principle is the same.
I believe the T-shape to be better suited for a wider range of ammo shapes

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This type of sling would be good to shoot discs with I might think. Has Anyone tried this already?

funditor wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2021 at 4:26am:

This type of sling would be good to shoot discs with I might think. Has Anyone tried this already?

Have you seen C_As designs on the Abstract Ammo thread? He's doing some disc thowing sling designs.

funditor wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2021 at 4:26am:

This type of sling would be good to shoot discs with I might think. Has Anyone tried this already?

https://youtu.be/Dp7eULvj_7Q

I've been seperating the three cords of my Y-slings, all the way up to the hand, like I did with the loop release system, instead of joining the two release cords somewhere near the pouch.

But I stopped doing the cord-seperation-in-the-wrist thing with Y-slings. It can work but it is incredibly sensitive to technique, one little
misuse of forearm and wrist and the ammo wants to drop, the inherent problem with wide grips.
I absolutely hate this aspect of wide grips. I have a very low tolerance for this problem, it is unacceptable in my view.
Because it will always be in the back of my head, and it can happen at the most of critical moments. I don't want that risk.
And said technique to mitigate this problem, is hard under stress.


So I went back to using the tight grip with Y-slings. Since the Wide grip loop release taught me that pouch control on Y-slings
still helps with accuracy (al be it affected by wrong pouch angles much less than a conventional sling.) 
I have to find another way to control the pouch angle then by using a wide grip.

I don't like vanes so the only option I have is to keep all 3 Y sling cords run all the way to the top
of the sling, only at the top the two release cords meet and become one. So there isa little extra drag of
a third sling cord. But this is the price to be paid for increased stability.

This keeps the sling very stable even with a tight grip, during rotation, because projectile is seated between the cords
and does not have parts hanging out of the sides, unlike with a conventional sling when this is often the case.

It also helps to use slightly stiffer and fatter cords when going for the tight grip. 
Unlike the conventional sling, stiffer and fat cords do not seem to cause further release relay with the Y-sling, but
do help with pouch orientation control utilizing the tight grip.

The only problem I still need to solve is the trigger question. Since the Y-sling has joined the previous retention and release cord together into one new release cord, and adds a new seperate retention cord, the load that was previously
spread over the retention and release cord when it was still a conventional sling, is now joined together into one new release cord. Thus the load is now extra big on the release cord. This prohibits a hair trigger from my hand as I have to grip really hard when going for the big rocks. My instinct was to use
a very big node, like a big knot, or a big round bead, but this causes noticeable drag as it releases from the hand.
What I do and so far works best is a full fist, smooth cords grip. But I am still looking for a way to get a fully relaxed trigger system.

main rig currently
no captive release because it is an experimental rig prone to mods

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