I have some criteria for my slings. First and most important, they must not oscillate radially - that is, the cords must not twist or cross when twirling but must stay taut respective to each other,  when I sling my general preferred weight of stone, which tends to be around a 150 grams. Second, the sling most not oscillate longitudinally when twirling, so the projectile
does not move in the pouch when twirling, but stays taut. This is a matter of using a no-gap narrow or tight grip.

At the same time I do like it when my sling has the capability to throw a very wide range of stones, from as little as 50 grams to as high as 500 grams or even a kilo.

Of course, I can't make the sling truly free of oscillation beyond a certain ammo weight range, making the sling oscillation free for 500 gram stones results in a very heavy and stiff sling unsuited for lighter stones. I tried. So I make my slings oscillation free for stones generally up to 150 or 200 grams.
But the pouch will still be able to hold 500 gram rocks, or 50 gram rocks. The only pouch that fits this in my experience
is a wide -- but not too wide - and long enough split pouch.

I have no problems with ammo dropping from a good split pouch or through a split pouch since I started using the narrow grip of the sling in my hand. I cannot see myself returning to using a wide grip. I see the wide grip as a bandaid for a different issue with the sling. And the wide grip has always just felt unnatural to me, in my view. Making it the default grip is not good practice I believe.

The problem with the wide grip, is that while it is genuinely utilized to overcome issues of radial oscillations, which come as a result of a sling cord that is too floppy in respect to the projectile, the wide grip introduces a new problem, longitudinal oscillations !. Longitudinal oscillations are the movements up and down of the sling cords, that happen with a wide grip, during the twirly phase, and can produce premature projectile dropping out of the pouch.

Again, to solve this issue, instead of dropping the wide grip, many would simply beef up the pouch, make it more cupped, etc etc. But this again leads to other problems !

That is why I don't think the wide grip is good practice. It leads to a new problem which requires a new solution which leads again to a new problem....

  There is a better way to overcome radial oscillations than to use a wide grip. That is to use a stiffer, denser cord, just stiff enough to overcome the oscillations. I find that a flat braid is very effective for this, but a round braid can work just fine as well as long as it's stiff and dense enough. And make sure the pouch is not too heavy in relation to the cords, otherwise
there will already be radial oscillations without any ammo in the pouch !

Fundamentally the sling is nothing more than a piece of string with a weight in the middle that is twirled around and then released. To get consistent release from this, the cords must stay taut in respect to each other during the twirly phase.

We already know that sling cords can be too thin and that this has drastic negative effect on accuracy. Try slinging with 0.5 mm cords and the oscillations are through the roof. The path and spin of the projectile are very erratic and not true and sound as they should be for actual training purposes. Sometimes the projectiles take a nosedive, other times they skeet to the left or right. Because the pouch orientation cannot be controlled.

A lot of slingers here still use slings and stones that osscilate too much. I can see this in their videos. They often
use a wide grip to try and overcome some of this and regain back some control  I understand the nice efficiënt feel of these thin slings cuttign through the air, but to me it's not worth it compared to the nice feeling of an osscilation free-sling.  The path, spin of the projectile and releases becomes so much more sound. It's hard to put into words. It's almost identical to releasing a bola Perdida, but with rifle spin attached. Ever since learning this whole ordeal I wrote above, which took me to long time to finally grasp, my respect for the sling has increased significantly and  my joy of slinging increased greatly, and I no longer have any any sling dilemmas. Training as well feels much more productive.

Wow!  You have put a lot of analytical thought into this!  Very admirable.

For myself, I'm just thrilled silly to throw things a little more accurately and a lot harder than I can with my naked hand.  Maybe I should demand more of myself.

Is there a design that you have that meets your criteria for which you can share a construction tutorial?

For a while I did a lot of experimenting with throwing a singleweight bola at short distances. It made me understand the sling and how it works much better. And also how to judge a good natural trajectory of a slung object. I was flabbergasted at how easy it was to be accurate with a singleweight bola after a days worth of practice throwing at a target 10 meters away. Why was it so much easier than using the sling? I started taking note of the very subtle aspects of slinging, and studying and becoming aware exactly of how the sling behaves. After the whole Y-sling fiasco, I learned that it was improper internal ballistics of my regular slings that screwed up the trajectory of my throws. It is very counterproductive to train to sling like this ! Because the release point might have been perfect, but because of screwed internal ballistics, the trajectories were skewed also. This leads you to believe to readjust your release point, while in fact your release point was never the cause of the erring shot, but instead it was the caused by an improper internal ballistics. This leads to a bad cycle and is the prime cause of the slings legendary ''skill ceiling.'' The truth is, this skill ceiling is not as high as told. Most of it being a result of misuse and improper understanding of the sling. A logical result, because few slingers even seem to be able to explain what they are doing and instead just let instinct rule and teach for years on end. The Balaeric sling culture does seem to have discovered to eliminate unwanted oscillations, al be it subconsciously to my knowledge because I have never read any literature on it. Likely it was just from mouth to mouth, father to son.

When it comes to designs. Round, square, flat, it does not matter. Just make sure that if you are throwing for accuracy, that when the sling is loaded, the cords stay taut and in line respective to each other with the pouch responding directly to the wrist and not oscillating back and forth afterwards. Some minimal oscililation is not a big issue. But large oscillation are. My estimate is that 20 degrees or so more pouch deviation from the center radial line is when issues begin. In some videos I see deviation of 90 degrees! No wonder they ask themselves afterwards why they misses tehri target.
And I have explained why opting for a wide grip is not a good solution to solve problems with oscillation. But that is up to the slinger himself. I hope the slinger himself will discover these things eventually.

  All slings are different. I am not saying a thin cord sling, like a single cord paracord sling is now useless. Absolutely not. In fact I have found them perfectly adequate when it comes to minimal oscillations as long as I keep the ammo weight below a certain threshold. Even with a narrow, tight grip. But problems arise when I try to throw 200g rocks with a single paracord sling.
The worst sling when it comes to oscillations in my experience are thin, twisted ply slings. Yes, their velocity they produce is high, but the trajectories very unpredictable. These twist and oscillate so easily. Braiding tight is much better.

thye weight on a cord IS a great training aid.
It's something Roman and the chamoros have been using for a few years.

They use tennis balls and paracord.

We used some on one of the visits we made to schools in mallorca.
Starting the kids on a string-ball definitely improved their technique when they graduated to slings.

I'd almost forgotten about that - cheers J.

I need to get some made.

J - I wouldn't call your adventure in the Y-sling a fiasco at all.  It was an exploration, and I was fascinated and wanted to try it myself.  What would be the simplest way to make one, paracord and medical tape?  Does it work best if the two cords reconverge or stay separate?

Curious - the first time fiddled with a single bola was when I was 4 and broke my paddle ball toy. :(

AncientCraftwork wrote on May 6^th, 2021 at 11:25am:

The problem with the wide grip, is that while it is genuinely utilized to overcome issues of radial oscillations, which come as a result of a sling cord that is too floppy in respect to the projectile, the wide grip introduces a new problem, longitudinal oscillations !. Longitudinal oscillations are the movements up and down of the sling cords, that happen with a wide grip, during the twirly phase, and can produce premature projectile dropping out of the pouch.

I applaud your desire to understand the sling better. I’ve been doing this for awhile as well and I feel like it’s a constant battle of 2 steps forward and 1 step back as far as theory goes. Sometimes it’s vice versa but that’s the nature of the beast.

So that being said let me ask you some questions and maybe we can take another step forward together.

1st, how sure are you that a wide grip causes premature release/dropping? If the premise of this theory is largely based on this motivating factor it would seem prudent to make sure that this theory is true. Otherwise you will be trying to fix a problem which either doesnt exist or exists for a reason other than that which you’ve theorized. What evidence can you offer that this is the case? If it is the case, is it so for everyone and if it isn’t so for everyone; why is that?

2nd, If it’s not universal then is it possible that this is more to do with something in your throw rather than something caused by all wide grip releases?

I ask these questions because for myself personally I’ve never had a premature release with a paracord apache sling where the ammo was the correct size for the sling. If I have it’s so rare that I cannot remember the last time that’s happened.

I’m initially focusing on this one question because before we get lost in the weeds here on all the things you mentioned let’s look at the premise that precedes all the other theories.

The other question I have for you is, what is the main goal you are looking for in this theory? Greater distance? Accuracy? Safety?

If it’s accuracy you should post some data on the Max Accuracy thread because that thread is there to answer these types of questions.

So right now Mersa has pretty much blasted everyone else’s score out of the water with a thin corded dyneema sling. Although I don’t know if he uses a wide or narrow grip and such scores can’t tell us as much detail as we would like, they certainly tell us whether something is possible or not. And right now he’s left us in the dust with his thin corded sling.

On the other hand... Probably one of my favorite slings I’ve ever used has been IG’s balearic and it has many of the qualities you are talking about. I can’t be sure right now without a whole lot more testing that it’s any “more” accurate but it certainly didn’t seem any “less” accurate than the best slings I’ve tried. I’m definitely open to the idea that lateral oscillations maybe cause release problems but again, I have zero real evidence on that. So far anyways.

Ok, well those are my thoughts. Good post man, as always!

These two are my favorite sling designs for adressing the issues you mentioned J. I personally love my flat pouch the most, but this split pouch sling also helps with oscillating in both orientations. The flat pouch just has the best accuracy, even though it is almost 6 inches longer. It looks like it might twist a bit, but it actually doesn't hardly at all. These two designs, and possibly the one I am making now, will probably be my go to designs to perfect. Both of these can hurl huge, and slingshot sized stones. The split pouch is tougher that tiny, but can be done

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Morphy wrote on May 6^th, 2021 at 4:44pm:

AncientCraftwork wrote on May 6th, 2021 at 11:25am: The problem with the wide grip, is that while it is genuinely utilized to overcome issues of radial oscillations, which come as a result of a sling cord that is too floppy in respect to the projectile, the wide grip introduces a new problem, longitudinal oscillations !. Longitudinal oscillations are the movements up and down of the sling cords, that happen with a wide grip, during the twirly phase, and can produce premature projectile dropping out of the pouch.  I applaud your desire to understand the sling better. I’ve been doing this for awhile as well and I feel like it’s a constant battle of 2 steps forward and 1 step back as far as theory goes. Sometimes it’s vice versa but that’s the nature of the beast. So that being said let me ask you some questions and maybe we can take another step forward together. 1st, how sure are you that a wide grip causes premature release/dropping? If the premise of this theory is largely based on this motivating factor it would seem prudent to make sure that this theory is true. Otherwise you will be trying to fix a problem which either doesnt exist or exists for a reason other than that which you’ve theorized. What evidence can you offer that this is the case? If it is the case, is it so for everyone and if it isn’t so for everyone; why is that? 2nd, If it’s not universal then is it possible that this is more to do with something in your throw rather than something caused by all wide grip releases? I ask these questions because for myself personally I’ve never had a premature release with a paracord apache sling where the ammo was the correct size for the sling. If I have it’s so rare that I cannot remember the last time that’s happened. I’m initially focusing on this one question because before we get lost in the weeds here on all the things you mentioned let’s look at the premise that precedes all the other theories. The other question I have for you is, what is the main goal you are looking for in this theory? Greater distance? Accuracy? Safety? If it’s accuracy you should post some data on the Max Accuracy thread because that thread is there to answer these types of questions. So right now Mersa has pretty much blasted everyone else’s score out of the water with a thin corded dyneema sling. Although I don’t know if he uses a wide or narrow grip and such scores can’t tell us as much detail as we would like, they certainly tell us whether something is possible or not. And right now he’s left us in the dust with his thin corded sling. On the other hand... Probably one of my favorite slings I’ve ever used has been IG’s balearic and it has many of the qualities you are talking about. I can’t be sure right now without a whole lot more testing that it’s any “more” accurate but it certainly didn’t seem any “less” accurate than the best slings I’ve tried. I’m definitely open to the idea that lateral oscillations maybe cause release problems but again, I have zero real evidence on that. So far anyways. Ok, well those are my thoughts. Good post man, as always!

I called this post of mine a rant because it sort of is, just me ranting away some thoughts, although not meant in an angerly fashion.

A wide grip does not have to cause a premature release or drop. But the overall chance for such a thing to happen is higher. Simply due to the fact that there are now longitudinal oscillations introduced. I do think this is universal. Our bodies cannot rotate our wrists in such a fashion to completely alliviate this oscillation on the cords and pouch with a wide grip. This is only cancelled out when the pivot point for both cords is more or less the same place in the hand. They are virtually nonexistent when the cords are grapped side by side or on top of each other. The result in my experience? This does increase safety a lot.

What I mean by longitudinal oscillation. Place a stone in your sling and hold your sling pouch and stone up in the air
with your left hand. Grip the sling with a wide grip with your right hand, with for example the loop around the ring finger.
Now move your left hand that is holding the stone in the pouch up and down. Note how the axis of the projectile
does not sit static with the pouch but moves slightly. This movement happens every time we rotate our wrist
with a wide grip and is the prime cause of premature release when it does happen.

Now use a tight no gap right in your right hand and perform the same test. See how the projectile stays taut in the pouch while you move the left hand up and down. There is no real movement. draw an imaginary line from the center of the stone
to the center of your hand. This line stays the same throughout rotation of a sling with a narrow grip. But with a wide grip,
this imaginary line moves off center back and fro every rotation, hence the oscillation.

When I give a sling to a new beginner and see them try out the wide grip, it almost always leads to a premature release.
Because they don't know to rotate the wrist at all. On the other hand, the tight grip does not lead to a premature release.
For them it feels more natural and instinctual to hold a sling like this. Many slingers do start out with this grip naturally, given a sling and having to figure it out how to use it on their own.
But later as they get more advanced they swap to a wide grip because it feels more accurate or consistent.
That's logical. Considering that when they did start with the narrow grip, they probably used a very simple beginners sling that was too floppy to achieve consistent pouch orientation with a narrow grip. So naturally a wide grip with the same floppy sling feels more accurate or consistent. But a better solution would have been to stay with that natural instinctual tight grip, and instead improve their sling to handle oscillations better. That's what I believe anyway. My experimentation showed
that achieving this is not far fetched. That is, rifled shots and good pouch control with a no gap grip. It's easy, as long
as the setup is balanced. And it feels damn good

@Duckhands both look like very nice slings.

This discussion is interesting. And therefore several points of view must be presented.

https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1598337147

What advantages do they have in this way for holding the sling ?

I don't know, I just see disadvantages, it looks comical to me.

I mostly use short Balearic-type slings and use a low-gap grip, and it feels very natural in that context. I find it to be a very comfortable grip as well.
Asymmetrical finger-loops also help provide a little bit of a gap, while keeping the loop and the cord next to each other. I believe they also provide slightly better twist resistance (only if the thick part is on top) and more comfort.

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I have trouble throwing flat, I know it can be done cuz i have done it.

But how i did it is a mystery

I don't know me too.
I don't think they were in the comedy. For their use, it had to be very effective.
That being said, I very much appreciate reading you.  :)

How I started gripping a flat cord sling and a round cord sling. The fingerloop is on the pinkie.

Flat cords on top and round cords side by side. With both grips I let go of the release cord  in front of the retention cord
and somehow magically I get a great spiral spin, when I use the correct ammo for these slings. I studied this in slowmotion,
and upon opening the sling moves to the right pouch orientation for an intrinsic spiral spin that comes with a balanced set up. This lead me to believe that a spiral spin, although some times with yaw angles slightly upwards, is the default spin placed on a projectile for a correctly balanced sling and projectile. I also noticed that when I sling hard, and some times the yaw angles are angled slightly upwards in the beginning, they stabilize quickly and yaw straight.

The full fist grip allows tremendous power, and the smooth release cord a swift release from the hand, in my experience after swapping back and forth between release knots, tabs, and smooth cords many times, the latter are the best.

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J you are more than welcome to state your opinions. They may be right or wrong, but I personally would like to see you demonstrate how your theories play out in the real world too. How about some videos demonstrating accuracy with the perfect sling/ammo combination? How about some participation in some of the friendly slinging challenges to back up your assertions?

I've got video's planned, but the future is always uncertain, a write up is what I can do at the moment.
But yes, I got video's I want to make.

The reasons why videos are important is because we could literally spend 15 years throwing theories out with no progress (and boy have we lol!) but a series of, or even to start with, just one video showing 10 shots in a row, unedited, goes a long way to demonstrating the effectiveness of the theories involved.

I think it should be restated that many styles can work. All you need are certain principles. A means to maintain consistency, the ability to fine tune control and a few other things are the only prerequisites for someone to be accurate.

So no one is necessarily discounting the possibilities of what you are saying but like I said, showing that you can achieve that with what you are saying by posting a short video lets people know there is something worth looking into.

All of us only have a limited amount of time, so to show someone there time is well spent studying or thinking about what you are saying, videos are by far the best way to do that. I promise it would take less time to post a video than it would be to post multiple posts on a thread.

That being said, I love your theories. I think you may be on to something with the lateral oscillations and some other things you mentioned. So don’t take this the wrong way.

It's hard to find a place to sling unbothered in a country with 550 people per square kilometer , especially in full historic dress. But I will make video's. It's just not easy here.

A slowmotion clip for study behavior of the sling. The release cord is gripped side by side of retention cord and upon release is in front of the retention cord, but the pouch angle automatically assumes the correct position for a rifled spin due to minimal oscillation, without requiring cord seperation. This is why I recommend minimal oscillation theory

https://youtu.be/cJV9WayajQk

Couple questions. And bear with me im trying to make this more clear and digestable for people just reading about your theory.

1st, When you say oscillation can you define that in a simple way anyone can understand? What type of oscillation is going on by throwing with a wide grip and what exactly is happening to the ammo amd sling during the shot in laymans terms when you are talking about oscillation that shouldnt be happening.

2nd, what problem do you propose that the above defined oscillation is causing that using a narrow grip like this becomes needed to fix?

3rd, Can you show us multiple, say around 10 shots, in a row showing us the problem exists with the wide grip and then show another 10 unedited shots in a row showing the problem being fixed with this narrow grip.

I think an issue Im having here is I dont know what problem exactly you are trying to fix so it doesnt strike me as necessary or at least it doesnt make a ton of sense to me.

On a tangent, I can see how stiffer cords would cause the sling not to twist laterally and have cord crossing as much as very limber cords. That theory at least makes sense. We
have virtually no proof just yet and what it fixes is a little up in the air but "that" at least is a potential problem we have all seen from time to time.

Whereas with this one I dont even see the problem because I havent experienced it.

Many of these things become self evident to slingers,  like that a wide grip is less secure in general than a narrow grip. It's also very easy to test and perfectly logical to understand the reasoning behind it. 
I have read about these things since my entry on this site and I've never seen anyone disagree with it or make a case against it.
It's simple, when the cords are seperated in the hand, the sling is already partially opened, the wider the seperation, the greater the opening, the greater movements on the projectile in the pouch that can cause slippages. On the contrary, with a pinch grip the sling is fully closed. The projectile doesn't move around in the pouch. It literally takes 5 seconds for a slinger to test.
Place the loop on the pinkie for the widest seperation, and the projectile is least secure. We can naturally assume
that as the seperation gets less the projectile gets seated better, and try it out and see it in front of our eyes. Isn't that obvious?

I talk about two types of oscillation. One that happens when either the cord is too floppy for the projectile, or the projectile too heavy for the sling, and one type of oscillation that happens when a wide grip is utilized, which worsens as the grip gets wider.
The first type results in cord twist, which leads to erratic pouch angles, and thus erratic releases. The second type of oscillation comes as a result of trying to solve the former type, by widening the grip. This oscillation happens up and down, and causes the projectile to experience a rolling movement just slightly so in the pouch. I am not sure if this has an effect on release
accuracy, but it can lead to preponed release. A solution for this is stiffening up the pouch or making the pouch more cupped, or swapping to a style with less rotations, but all these are not really good solutions and bring their own downsides in my opinion. The better way to solve the first type of oscillation instead of widening the grip is to get the appropiate type of cord stiffness for the projectile or the appropiate weight and size of stone for your sling, and what is appropiate? When it doesn't oscilliate / twist back in forth  with a narrow grip too much. What is too much? That is personal. For me I don't like it more than 20 degrees.

that's sounds technical but that's what this thread is

Sarosh explains very well why we can't keep making our slings thinner and floppier and expect the same accuracy
https://youtu.be/EXb0plY4-jc

Hmm something just occurred to me J. I wonder if the size of the ammo plays a part and not just the weight.

With my paracord slings using stones I feel like my accuracy was pretty good. But never really tried them with larger ammo. You know baseball size and the like. Over the next couple months Ill have to spend some time using paracord vs balearic slings and see if I can document a difference.

Size, density, weight, all plays a part. The shape of the projectile as well. A sphere by its very nature produces the least oscillations, while the more elongated and longer the projectiel gets the more oscillations are introduced.
Higher density also produces less oscillations than a lower density projectile of the same weight. It all has to do with the way the mass is distributed and centered between the sling cords.  The more of it is in the middle and not outside the pouch the better.  It's why I like the fat clay glande a lot. One that is almost a sphere, but with points.

J,
Please define “oscillations”. Oscillations of what? And oscillations with respect to what?
Do you mean rotation?  Vibration? With respect to what?  Is it ammo that’s oscillating? Or the sling cords?  Ammo rotates  back and forth with respect to the sling pouch, the sling cords, the slinger’s wrist, elbow, shoulder and hips. It also rotates relative to the earth, the moon, and the sun. You say “oscillation” as if everyone knows what you are talking about, but please dumb it down for me. What oscillations are you referring to?

Once you define oscillations, please also explain why these are so bad. You seem to want to eliminate these oscillations, so please explain why and how that affects the act of slinging.

I've already explained it, and I don't feel like repeating myself over and over, because I can't explain it differently than what I already have. And if you don't understand it, than I can't help it. Maybe one day I will find better wording, but currently I am at a loss for words for further explanation, because I feel like I've already said all I could to explain it.

You’ve certainly put down a lot of words J, but it’s all starting to look like nonsense at this point.  I can tell that you’re passionate about this, but I’m struggling to take you seriously. I’ve seen plenty of people sling with accuracy using thin, flexible cords. Why is your way better?

Saying “it reduces oscillations” doesn’t mean anything to me. You could just as easily say “because it maximizes moon units”. It just sounds silly and there’s no evidence to show that you’re right in any of the things you’re claiming.

I’m still waiting for that video too. You talk about this a lot, but where’s the demonstration? When are you going to back up all these claims you are making?

So I think the main issue I have is if a person says something cant be done or cant be done well and then even one other person does it, it sort of destroys the whole theory.

Its like saying only one throwing style is capable of high accuracy. Well, thats a problem because now every single person who is halfway decent that uses a different style is gunning for you. Once they accomplish what "cant be done" every single thing that has been said in conjuction with that disproven statement becomes suspect and people naturally tend to dismiss it.

This is why its far better to put your theory out there, build on it but dont ever act like its all figured out unless you have a ton of scientific evidence to back it up.

And even then in science with real researchers and people with all sorts of letters behind their name you still see their theories get absolutely demolished on a regular basis.

I can say for me personally Ive had some pretty darn good accuracy with paracord and wide grip apache slings. And I can probably count the amount of unexpected releases while using decent ammo on one hand. And thats out of 10s of thousands of shots. So that right there is a big problem.

I'm in agreement with you NooC & Morphy.

I'm not saying there's no value in these views (far from it, I actually think there are kernels of truth in there most likely) but there is no evidence to back up the confidence with which these are asserted, aside from anecdotal, and anecdotal is worth very little given the propensity towards confirmation bias (nothing personal to you J, it's part of how humans think).

I'm sure I've said this before J but if you couched your statements with 'I think', 'this might' etc it would be much more warmly received. People really don't like being told the *way* things are when they are still very much open debates with little evidence or consensus either way.

There are many people on the forum who have experienced very solid accuracy with thinner slings, I myself have seen good accuracy with both types (again, this is anecdotal, but you begin to see how anecdotal is low value evidence because it points everywhichway for different people with different experiences).

Personally I think most of this current vogue for thicker slings being more accurate is simply because they favour heavier ammunition, which has inherent accuracy advantages over lighter ammunition; 1) Slower slinging speed reduces margin of error 2) Slower air travel speed reduces aerodynamic effects 3) More mass means less acceleration/deviation exerted by external forces (mostly aerodynamic, but possibly could allow for cleaner pouch exit too).

Well I use both thin floppy cords and a wide grip but I think I get pretty decent results.

For me I think that the slinger is more important than the sling or projectile.

You can’t cheat slinging, practice wins over equipment.

Mersa wrote on May 14^th, 2021 at 4:18pm:

Well I use both thin floppy cords and a wide grip but I think I get pretty decent results. For me I think that the slinger is more important than the sling or projectile. You can’t cheat slinging, practice wins over equipment.

👆this.

Turtles. Am I right or what?

Here is a counter point to your theory J:

A “floppy” asymmetric sling with 3mm cords produced a really nice rifled spiral:

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I’m convinced a lot of these theory threads are murky. It seems you have to read them several times to understand what fixing the supposed problem that is presented is meant to fix.

I’m still not 100% if this thread is ultimately making the claim that reducing both longitudinal and radial “oscillations” makes for the most accurate sling.

If it’s not that I don’t know what else it’s claiming.

Think about it... there’s basically three aspects of slinging. Target, Hunting, Distance.


Nothing in this thread seems to indicate it’s about distance throwing. Hunting sling theory tends to be more focused on the practical aspects like length, speed of wind up and of course a mixture of power and accuracy. But I don’t see that here.

It would seem it’s about target throwing. But if that’s the case there’s a very, very easy way to prove one’s theory. Head on over to the Max Accuracy thread and show what that sling design can do. Either it provides an observable benefit or it doesn’t. If it does and if one is good enough to make use of that benefit and therefore prove it exists to your slinging peers, it will take exactly one post to get that ball rolling.

Really...it is SO easy. It doesn’t take 3 pages of questions and answers. It takes approx. 10 minutes of throwing at most.

So what is the hold up? I don’t think it should fall on others to post videos proving something wrong. Because I can post theories much faster than a person can disprove said theories. It should fall on the person making the claim to do something to back it up.

Ok, PHEW. I looked at the title and it said rant so damnit I ranted! /Morphy Out  ;)

I think a big problem is that accuracy can mean two totally different things to two different people. It depends on the projectiles they practice with. Practically any sling is capable of consistent, laser accuracy as long as the projectiles one is practicing with are exactly the same in weight and shape. As long as the projectiles are consistent, then the oscillations can be consistent and predictable.
However,
If you throw projectiles that vary wildly in shape and weight, then having a sling that resists oscillations is a great benefit. This is common sense, as any change in weight or shape of the projectile causes the sling to oscillate differently. By making a sling twist resistant, one is alleviating a variable to some extent.
I almost exclusively practice with random stones, and so it is no surprise to me that my most accurate ones (in this context) are twist resistant and resist oscillations.

I agree to some extent AS.

"If" such a sling is more forgiving it would be a nice plus. I also think its likely that if any sling were to be more forgiving it would not surprise me if it was one that remains static as much as possible within the throw.

That being said I think when discussing large differences in weight and shape we need to be careful how much credit we give to the sling. Truly large differences in shape are beyond any slings ability to help. Too many things happen after leaving the sling for what happens in the sling to matter.

Obviously the poorly shaped ammos weight plays a big role in this but things get really complicated because its, imo, proportional to the speed being slung and how poorly its shaped.

Heavier ammo thats poorly shaped shouldnt plane as much in the air because its naturally harder to sling very fast and it should be more resistant to change in direction anyways. So it sort of helps itself in that regard. So we get all sorts of variables up to and including the slingers own strength.

Then you have the problem of ammo rolling out of the sling when said ammo being poorly shaped may take a fraction of a second longer than another stone. Such differences make a big difference in point of impact but are almost impossible to adjust for during the throw. Nor could one even know in what way they would have to adjust until after the stone shows us after which it would be too late. Was it you, or perhaps JudoP who defined it as a "zero feedback loop"? Its a perfect way to look at it imo.  Let me add my own term- "Shrodingers Slingstone".   ;)

Mostly though from what ive seen and maybe this is just me, but if a stone is relatively heavy and relative round its going to be , wait for it(!), relatively accurate.  ;D

And really, relatively accurate regardless of whether im using a paracord sling with a wide grip or a stiff balearic sling. On the other hand if its poorly shaped Im not going to be accurate with it in comparison, regardless of sling type.

These are my thoughts from my own experiences. Your mileage may vary.

NOOC. If you think thats countering my theories you have not read them properly
In another video I posted I used a paracord noodle sling with a tight grip and spiralled properly.
I used light ammo. The sling had some oscillations with it, but not unmanageable.
Paracord is a nice even round braid. it's quite twist resistant for relatively light ammo. A lot better than badly twisted cords at least.

And of course I can even get a spiral shot with badly twisted cords ocassionally. Even with a very heavy rock, and greek style, without multiple rotations, and a wide grip. Someof these things help to overcome the bad cords somewhat. They're like bandaids. I can even get it sometimes with a tight grip, heavy rocks and thin, twisted cords and Balaeric style. But overall its far from as consistent or clean as a well balanced sling + projectile set up. So a clip means nothing.

The simple and well backed idea is that the ammo has to be well balanced for the sling. Of course you can use really floppy and thin slings. But to prevent unwanted oscillations then requires quite light projectiles and a very wide grip. There's a reason you don't see Balaeric slingers use small twisted cords for their 200+ gram rocks and their way of throwing. It isn't consistent.  IF they were we would all be using them. Much more aerodynamic, easy to make and portable. But alas, it doesn't sling as consistent for the rocks many like, so they use thicker slings.

One of my favorite Einstein quotes is "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."

Ive always found that to be true.

So J, real simply man...

In one sentence tell us what benefit low oscillations of a sling gives you that cant be gotten from a wider grip and paracord. Keep it real short.

Its not "stones flying out of the pouch at random times"  because I know for a fact that isnt a problem with paracord and heavy stones. Just one sentence man.


There seems to be an issue of trying to get simple answers from you and instead getting  a very long answer that tells us less and makes things more confusing than one sentence.

And please dont say "low oscillations are good because they oscillate less" there also seems to be a good amount of circular reasoning and assuming the conclusion throughout these posts that combined with winding explanations and no proof lead no where.

Let's set aside the "stones leave the pouch more randomly with paracord etc. Thats simply not the case. So what is it?

Lastly if it seems like im being harsh here its only because I tend to be one of the more eager to discuss theories guys on here. And even I am exhausted at this point trying to get you to make a simple assertion and then make a simple video proving said assertion. If im at that point I can only imagine others have all but given up on these conversations.

This should be the easiest thing in the world and should actually be rather fun. Make your conclusion, I can then go out and test it myself and see if your results match mine. This is the heart of the scientific method and the only thing that can really prove youre right or wrong.

I think there’s a false correlation between grip width and cord stiffness in this conversation. If we’re being scientific, we should be isolating variables, not combining them. For clarity’s sake, my retention cord and release cord were 1 finger’s width apart in the video above. That’s not a wide grip.

We’re not picking on you J. I actually enjoy talking theory when it leads to understanding. I question and test any theories including my own for that reason. There’s a long history of slinging theories on the forum, and most of them are nearly useless for improving people’s ability to actually use a sling. Your theories make specific claims that are testable, so I tested them. I am more accurate with a flexible sling than a stiff one.  That means your theory is either incorrect or incomplete because your assertions are disproven by evidence.   

I would be more than happy to continue the conversation and discuss what differences really do exist between stiff and flexible cords, narrow and wide grips, etc. I believe these variables do matter, but the slinger and style do too.  We just need to refine the explanation of why and how they all matter relative to each other. It would help also to not insist so strongly that one set of parameters is universally “better” until we can also demonstrate that with evidence.

Explain to me how a wide grip is equally as secure as a tight grip. I do not believe.
You all seem tired of my explanations, so I want yours. Please explain how very floppy small diameter cords
provide as much pouch angle control as thicker and denser cords. I've explained why this is not the case.
Explain me why you think otherwise, explain me why so many slingers use stiffer and heavier cords
if it doesn't matter at all, and why they should all be using the simpler, lighter and thinner cords.

I want to reiterate since my last post was quite pointed...I like these theories J. I think they have merit. I also think theres a good possibility theres some truth to them. But I strongly encourage you to show proof and I find the lack of brevity in your answering simple questions and the lack of videos showing real testing/proof to be a big roadblock to progression.

Quite simply if you truly believed you had the answers you would have been jumping to provide proof rather than doing everything you can to not do so. Youve posted other slinging videos in the last few days, whats stopping you from taking 10-20 unedited shots at a small target?

You see the problem right? Your extreme enthusiasm in theorizing doesnt line up with your refusal to provide any proof of said theories. It makes people wonder. And rightly so imo.
This is basically the target thread version of Apocs 700 meter throws. This thread and many others. Sorry man. Got to say it. Still think youre a great guy and love your enthusiam to learn but you put yourself out there as having it all figured out and never, ever provide proof. Its very frustrating.  :-?

AncientCraftwork wrote on May 18^th, 2021 at 11:37am:

Explain me why you think otherwise, explain me why so many slingers use stiffer and heavier cords if it doesn't matter at all, and why they should all be using the simpler, lighter and thinner cords.

People believed that illness was caused by imbalances in the humors of the body for thousands of years. Just because people think or act a certain way or use a certain sling doesn't mean much. Evidence. It's all that matters.

Technically, a bent stick with a string is a possible weapon.  Is it therefore optimal.  It depends for what.  But my claim to a bow is different.  This also applies to a sling.  It's easy to make.  But my use and my claim require something different.  I can pass on my experience.  I can explain something and also show it.  If someone tells me something doesn't work, I can believe it or check it out.  The Latin calls this facta locuuntur.

I wonder why some slings have a stiffer cradle than the stiffness utilized in the cords. I can't seem to figure out the use of this and I cannot think of extra benefits. Currently I believe that for the sake of simplification, the same stiffness is best used throughout the length of the whole sling, according my theories regarding oscillations, pouch and spin angles and accuracy. Why? It is very simple. Lets assume that the stiffness of a sling and the projectile weight/size/shape determines the amount of oscillation, which is best kept at a minimum, but not fully eliminated, like I explained in my theories.

If we could define to stiffness a figure, than a sling, which is a cord, is only as stiff as its weakest 'link'.  Thus having a much stiffer pouch than the cords does not make sense for me. The stiffer pouch needs heavier rocks
to overcome resistance, and this stiffer pouch has an ideal weight of projectile for opening without too much delay or interference. But because the cords are not as stiff as the pouch, the cords have a different ideal projectile weight to combat too much oscillations. Thus, the ideal weight of projectile for the pouch is now no longer the same ideal projectile for the stiffness of the cords. Assuming that the ideal projectile weight to minimize oscillations is also the ideal for opening the sling without too much delay. Thus, a sling with a pouch much stiffer than the cords, either has a stone that is too heavy for the cords to minimize oscillation, or  a stone too light for the pouch to open without too much delay.

Of course, these kind of ''imperfections'' are theoretical, and habit, practice and what one is used to is probably more important.
It's just more theory to add on to my theory, but it's something to think about. I guess what it boils down to
is that according to my theories, that ideally a sling has an equally stiff factor throughout.

I know this almost is starting to sound like I am trolling, but I am not, these thoughts just entered my brain the last 5 minutes as I was slinging and comparing a sling that has a stiffer pouch than the cords, and with a sling that has an equal stiffness throughout its length. The latter felt ''better'' to me and I started wondering why.

Sorry if I say that.  I don't understand anything you pushed or tried to say.  What is the goal of your thinking?

I agree with you to a point J.  Just to throw this out at the beginning, nothing that follows is based on any real testing of accuracy between slings.  It is based on the feel I remember them having while using them.  Most of this is based on leather pouch paracord slings that have had different thickness and stiffness to the leather.

I think a sling that has cords and a pouch with the same stiffness has a smoother feel when throwing it.  I would imagine this comes from the physical nature of them being able to move fluidly with each other rather than one fighting the other.  A tapered release cord would be an exception to this because as the cord gets thinner, it should have less stiffness.  But as long as the taper is gradual and consistent, this will also allow a fluid movement of the sling.

If we look at the other two options, being a sling that has a pouch that is stiffer than the cords, and a sling that has cords stiffer than the pouch, I would definitely choose the first option.  I have a sling that fits this description perfectly (image below).  The pouch is two pieces of leather that are quite stiff, but the release feels very clean.  Even with light weight projectiles.  I normally use this sling to toss old fruits and vegetable that have gone bad out into the brush.  Once I threw some little jalapeno peppers with it, and they didn't have any problems clearing the pouch.  I think the stiffness of the pouch causes it to open quickly when released, allowing the projectile to clear it freely.  This could actually be a good sling to try to record with slow motion at some point.

One the other side of the coin, I've also had some slings with very floppy pouches.  One I recall was with 550 paracord, and a very thin floppy leather pouch.  It worked, but didn't have a clean feel at all.  None of the fluidity like the other slings.

https://beehatmead.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/CupSling.jpg

It's certainly something to think about. For the sake of technical simplicity, I like the idea of a uniform pliability throughout the whole length of the sling.

I did make a sling not so long ago with a very stiff rubber pouch and very floppy cords. Their pliability levels between the two was too far apart. It didn't work well.

I've also made an overlapping pouch with floppy leather with thicker stifffer cords in the past. It didn't work very well either.

Different pliability levels between pouch and cords can work, but the difference must not be too big in my opinion, with uniform pliability being best I think.

As a theory I like the idea of it being right. But im slowly beginning to accept that perhaps these arent meant to be tested rather than discussed in perpetuity. Handed down theories from generation to generation in solemn reverence of their holy uncertainty.

a lot of my observations agree with what J has observed. I dont agree with narrow grip being better though.

All of these questions can be simply answered by using 120 or 240 frame-per-second video on a phone/camera to film.  The 3-5 frames of the projectile/pouch/cords during the release can be filmed with sufficient information at this frame rate to give a lot of useful information.  I know that phones from 2017 have this capability.  I suggest that we all start using them to answer these questions. It will greatly add to the community to show evidence/data rather than just discuss them at length.  We have the technology now, and it's accessible... let's use it.

I thinkt the general principles and ideas I am presenting is applied by many slingers instinctively, maybe without beign fully aware, it is discovered seperately by anyone who slings to a degree. Morphy is probably right that these things aren't meant to be tested and discussed in perpetuity.

As to uniform pliability, Joe made the perfect comment. With the Balaeric sling the taper is very gradual and consistent, so the pliability level also. There is no hard point where pliability suddenly changes.

And even with slings that do have stiffer pouches than the cords, we know these can also work quite wel as long as the difference is not too big. But that's already applied instincitvely. No one slings with a wooden pouch. And if the slings become too twisty for the individual, he or she changes the design until their desired level of stability is reached, or they widen the grip.

I need to drop the chase after perfection because stones aren't perfect.

I have made some of my slings according to cordalloid principle, with a spine in the middle, but have dropped the design because it does not seat round biconicals or spheres properly. A form of cupping is simply reguired for round objects. It has to be cradled either by split or by a pouch with give, or they roll out prematurely. Of course its best that it is not solid but flexible like the cords with the ability to pop flat. Although I must admit, even my overlapping 2 leather strip pouches don't fold completely flat on release, but they still release very well. Most importantly a result of the pouch being as flexible as the cords. The whole thing feels like a single unit

Before reloading thin cords, it's also important that before reloading them, to make sure they untwist from the previous cast. Don't reload with twist into them, then the cords want to coil. But when twisted cords are loaded neutral, they're are good to go.

That is the biggest downside of thin slings in my opinion. They require more delicate reloading, while a good Balaeric provides quick reloading under stress. But I don't think this downside compares to all the upsides of a light and efficient sling which boils down to less friction and less building material, while yet retaining all the good capabilities of the traditional sling.

I think that for defeating oscillations, other measures can be taken first before measures are taken to make the sling thicker and stiffer. Measures like lessening the amount of rotations is the most important first step, the second step then potentially widening the grip. Making the sling stiffer and thicker should, I think, be the last option to defeat unwanted oscillations, as it then starts cutting into efficency. Although previously said I think widening the grip should be the last resort.
But eitherway, before the sling is made thicker, it should first be made stiffer. Thickness should be the last resort, I think.

The reason I think that lessening the amount of rotations comes first? Because rotations seem to be the primary cause of unwanted oscillations. On the first rotation of the wrist, there are no oscillations. It is only on the second rotation when
the oscillations begin- because on the second rotation the projectile has rotated around its axis for the first time. This rotation, due to the eenrgy of the projectile that wants to keep rotating, can cause the pouch to rotate further than the wrist rotation if the cords are not stiff enough to withstand this. This is the first oscillation.
The more rotations are used, the more out of balance it can get, up to the point where the pouch no longer responds to the wrist at all.

This is easily noticed with very thin and long slings. Again, minimizing or dropping out secondary rotations completely solves the problem, as I discovered when slinging with cords that are as small as 2 mm. As long as I don't use secondary rotations,
the tension on the cords alone due to the sling action is enough to provide pouch angle control, and stiff / thick cords are not required.

I keep coming back to thin and light cords anyhow. Even simple and thin but tight twisted cords have my preference over the relatively thin 3 strand braid cords like Sarosh uses. Even for throwing inline I now use very thin cords, but simply cut back on the rotations. Maybe do one or two if I do want to use rotations, but no more. It's starts to become irrational to use more for me. My favorite style is Greek for rifled and maybe one or two rotations for inline.  I am not sure if you saw that short clip of mine where I slung Greek but I really like that style for spiralling, it allows me to use very thin cords.
The stones I used in that video were all below optimal 50 grams, and I think I would throw even faster with 60-80 gr, this is a weight for velocity. But I make all my thin slings to still be able to sling up to a tennisball sized rock. Larger than that I think is not required.