https://youtu.be/MQhQKA8H2O4

(Fast-forward to 5:15 for specific reference, but the prior content is pretty hilarious.)

Would this be considered Apache technique, a specific type of overhand style or a hybrid?

Its called 'why havent you made any attempt to look at even one video of actual slingers before making your own video'

David Morningstar wrote on Apr 24^th, 2021 at 3:41am:

Its called 'why havent you made any attempt to look at even one video of actual slingers before making your own video'

That's amazing. This is the first time I've ever heard of the WHYMAATLAEOVOASBMYOV technique. Is it a traditional style or more if a recent development by the guy in the video?

I've seen so many videos where the slinger slings like this. Even one reenactor did it that way. You can see how wierd it is to spin that way and the super low velocities and therefore low range. Even as a beginner technique this is just poopy, simple underhand is the way to go to start slinging in my opinion.

I would call it Apache but with a drop or push at the start . Names are confusing, and always a fun debate

Everyone should do what they want.  Personally, I find nonsense.

If the Apache style is that of the old indian, then it's no. His body is from the front, he does not hide his arms and the stone is in front?
I think he looks like me when I first launched.

Oh dear. Yeah I guess Overhand is the best way of describing it. I'm actually working on a system for describing slinging styles more... scientifically let's say. The main problem I see with a lot of the names we have is that they are used to describe one part of a two part process. There is the wind-up and the release angle. Often times a style is named for the wind-up despite the release angle being more important. Anyway, I won't go into it yet as it's a work in progress but this is precisely the situation where a full breakdown of a style is more explanatory than a pretty abstract name like Apache.

That is a legit overhand throw. As in just overhand. And yes its absolute garbage in both accuracy and power. At least he wasnt trying to pass himself off as some kind of expert. You see so many so called experts that dont know their ass from a hole in the wall trying to give their opinion on something they know nothing about. Ill give him props for not doing that at least.

Definitely not a good technique, but ah well.
I remember challenging a popular youtuber on their false "figure-eight" technique...They didn't like that.
Complete novices drawing conclusions about the sling based on their "experience" is both irritating and amusing.
Bit like this: https://exarc.net/issue-2019-4/at/iron-age-shepherd-sling
"The experiment consisted of making and using the sling, testing its range and accuracy to reveal its strengths and limitations" (An impossible goal in the hands of a novice)
Also have no idea where he got this from: "Clearly the sling was capable for more than doubling the distance of a projectile thrown by hand, since the longest distance recorded with the sling is 118 m (Pringle, 2017)"

Ive grown to despise these faux survival experts and historical weapons experts.

The typical guy sitting in the woods in camo or buckskin with a big beard passing himself off as the return of Daniel Boone in the flesh is hilarious and as you said, irritating. These people have a very, very shallow yet somewhat broad knowledge. They have enough knowledge to make a quick youtube video to get that paycheck and usually half of what they know is wrong.

118 m is a good example. How long does it take to google "farthest sling throw"?

I just did it. Took 5 seconds. Oh well.  ::)

You gotta admit, although this guy has no idea what he's doing, he's actually doing better than I'd expect with that.

I'm with you, Morphy. I'm sure it breaks your heart to even see the "survival bows", which sometimes shoot arrows so poorly that they would be better thrown. They're not just annoying. I think the actual issue with these survival channels is that they give the wrong impression, that all you have to do is learn to make it.

I get annoyed with academics on the capabilities with the sling, but it's sometimes hard to blame them. I think one study ( https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030544030900034X ;    , hopefully the article is accessible) tried to measure distances based off of native Andean slingers, which on the surface might sound like a good idea. However, they might not be able to tell the quality of the slingers and if the slinging culture is still capable. The longest distance by an adult male was 130 meters. In fact, the guy who did that was one of two adult males (Out of 7) who broke the 100 meter mark, the other guy who broke it had a high range of 101.54 meters. A couple guys didn't even break 80 meters. Now, I'm no Luis, but I'm pretty sure myself and many people on this forum could probably go toe to toe (and probably exceed) the best guy they found.

This David Jackson from EXARC is clearly taking an academic perspective on it, and he's more of the hands-on academic that forgets to dedicate several years of practice into their methods and materials. I almost feel bad for the guy, because he probably doesn't understand how poorly he's doing. It should be pointed out that his results would not be too strange if they were included among the Andean slingers, which might go to show the state that slinging in the Andes has declined to.

Its all of that and more Hirtius. Its also this over the top "manly bravado" they try to put out combined with this sort of survival Clint Eastwood nonesense that is just nausea inducing.

These are by and large actors nothing more. Stick them in a real survival situation and the vast, vast majority die from hunger, thirst, hypo/hyperthermia or gut bugs. These are fakers pretending to know so they can get 10s of millions of eyeballs of weekend warrior corporate types looking at them wishing they could live that life when they themselves dont even live that life.

Primitive Technology is pretty legit. And thats why he has a mega channel. He might die as well but he would die in style.

Now I cant really blame the academics because they are trying but what I do blame them for is not listening to people here who are arguably the most experienced slingers they are ever likely to meet. But at least they arent playing part time caveman for money.

Ive only come to this feeling relatively recently. I used to LOVE those channels until I began to see them for what they were. A LARPer cash grab. Nothing else.

Kick wrote on Apr 24^th, 2021 at 7:30am:

Oh dear. Yeah I guess Overhand is the best way of describing it. I'm actually working on a system for describing slinging styles more... scientifically let's say. The main problem I see with a lot of the names we have is that they are used to describe one part of a two part process. There is the wind-up and the release angle. Often times a style is named for the wind-up despite the release angle being more important. Anyway, I won't go into it yet as it's a work in progress but this is precisely the situation where a full breakdown of a style is more explanatory than a pretty abstract name like Apache.

Maybe we need binomial nomenclatures but for slinging styles!

It’s very hard to define by names , just look at variations in baseball pitches and cricket bowlers, there’s slight differences in everyone’s bodies and sling styles look different when a slight change in release angle. Then there’s pre loading tension on cords and pre rotation, the list is too big . Names can’t do it all justice and we can’t agree most the time anyway.

I remember being new to the forum and thinking I had a unique style, truth is it’s all a fancy way to throw a rock.

Morphy wrote on Apr 24^th, 2021 at 7:53pm:

Its all of that and more Hirtius. Its also this over the top "manly bravado" they try to put out combined with this sort of survival Clint Eastwood nonesense that is just nausea inducing. These are by and large actors nothing more. Stick them in a real survival situation and the vast, vast majority die from hunger, thirst, hypo/hyperthermia or gut bugs. These are fakers pretending to know so they can get 10s of millions of eyeballs of weekend warrior corporate types looking at them wishing they could live that life when they themselves dont even live that life. Primitive Technology is pretty legit. And thats why he has a mega channel. He might die as well but he would die in style. Now I cant really blame the academics because they are trying but what I do blame them for is not listening to people here who are arguably the most experienced slingers they are ever likely to meet. But at least they arent playing part time caveman for money. Ive only come to this feeling relatively recently. I used to LOVE those channels until I began to see them for what they were. A LARPer cash grab. Nothing else.

Primitive technology is fairly legit. He's not a good slinger, but he shows all of his misses and is actually aiming at a target. You at least get effort. Everything he does is the old fashion way, so I can respect it. Funny that you mentioned that he might die, because there's actually a spoof about that. The weapon that leads to death is, go figure, a sling.

The reason I don't respect most all of these survivalists is that they're preparing for a fantasy situation, and much of it is useless without some prerequisite tool (that often the survivalists are also selling). Got lost in the forest without your knife/machete/hatchet/saw? I guess you're already dead.

I feel like the only true "survival" video would just show someone walking a few miles to find the nearest road or people. Somehow I still see them saying "Go to my website and buy your very own 'survival walking stick'".

I do see the need for coming up with some different names for styles. I feel like overhand can be interpreted so many ways. You could probably use overhand to refer to something that is almost sidearm, as well as for something that is completely vertical. Same for underarm.

I feel like you could possibly boil it down to a number of release positions/angles. A quick classification system might be "True overhand" (vertical or almost vertical, like figure 8), "Angled overhand" (fairly angled, maybe like 45 degrees, see Practical Paracord's style), "Flat overhand" (No angle or only slight angle on release, like Jaegoor's), "Sidearm" (Like Luis' style), "Angled underarm" (Like angled overhand except underarm), and "True underarm" (No angle or only slight angle).

More specific movements that aren't tied to a single release like Byzantine or Greek might be put in front. Figure 8 is typically always more towards the "True overhand", so that might not need any further information.

Under a system like that, I would describe my style as "Byzantine flat overhand". It might be initially confusing and is not perfect, but boils most releases down to roughly six positions.

Morphy wrote on Apr 24^th, 2021 at 11:03am:

And yes its absolute garbage in both accuracy and power.

Well simple overhand(the one timpa does for accuracy) is actually pretty decent for accuracy and power especially with large stones for being overhand, I have tried it and it worked decently well, but this one where you spin it from my testing makes it just worse.

Though this is not that bad, compared to misinformation you can find this is actually good. There is some "expert information" I found on some czech survivalist website a good while ago that is much much much muuuuuuuch worse and more dangerous. I don't think the website still operates because the instructions on there were very dangerous and I can't find it anymore. For example using the sling, they said you have to spin it as fast as you can over your head then release it. Most people here think that you somehow by magic accumulate energy by spinning it like a madman and when you release the knot the stone flies far because of all the energy you put into the spinning(treating the spin like stretching ruber from slingshots. Also notice there is no mention of the most important part of the throw: the throw).

Ok so this is really encouraging. I'm not the only person thinking about this classification problem. In that case, I'll post my proposed solution in a new topic. I do hope you all tear the idea to shreds :D

Up now:

https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1619341496/0#0

Why that is a Greek overhand. My absolute favorite style that everyone else considers hot garbage for some reason.  :P

well it does have the 'greek' start.
which is pouch held at roughly head height in the opposite hand to the cords and the pouch in front of the head.
Which is what is depicted on all the urns.

We have absolutely no clue what they did after that.
So a 'greek' style throw is categorised solely by it's starting point. 

And it is a pure overhand throw.

So yep, logically, that is greek overhand.

I'd call it simple overhand or greek overhand maybe. Although both those techniques can be done a lot better than this.

Initial rotations in the 'forwards' direction are very poor, it's literally better to not prerotate than rotate forwards.

It is in the same vein as improperly done figure 8. Where the slinger just whirls the sling in a 'forwards' figure 8 motion and takes the shot from that. Yes the wind up is literally moving in a figure 8, but it isn't the figure 8 slinging technique.

I wouldn't say forward rotations are always bad. I'm a big supporter of Bambula's version of Fig.8 which has forward rotations but then goes into "proper" Fig.8 technique. I've found it pretty comfortable to use and almost understand why he thought it was different to regular Fig.8 It does seem to help (me at least) really open up my chest to get a strong overhead throw.

I agree kick , forward rotation on that particular variation of figure 8 seems to work well. But in general I don’t get any advantage from pre rotation,  just my personal preference.
I really need to make a video of all the different  styles I use and what I call them, because they feel different and have different advantages. Everything is different and has pros and cons

czechslinger1.0 wrote on Apr 25^th, 2021 at 4:40am:

Morphy wrote on Apr 24th, 2021 at 11:03am: And yes its absolute garbage in both accuracy and power. Well simple overhand(the one timpa does for accuracy) is actually pretty decent for accuracy and power especially with large stones for being overhand, I have tried it and it worked decently well, but this one where you spin it from my testing makes it just worse. Though this is not that bad, compared to misinformation you can find this is actually good. There is some "expert information" I found on some czech survivalist website a good while ago that is much much much muuuuuuuch worse and more dangerous. I don't think the website still operates because the instructions on there were very dangerous and I can't find it anymore. For example using the sling, they said you have to spin it as fast as you can over your head then release it. Most people here think that you somehow by magic accumulate energy by spinning it like a madman and when you release the knot the stone flies far because of all the energy you put into the spinning(treating the spin like stretching ruber from slingshots. Also notice there is no mention of the most important part of the throw: the throw).

My favorite are sling accuracy tutorial videos that dont actually tell you much of anything. "How you sling" is not the same thing as individual principles that apply to all throws that make you accurate. Just saying do this with this foot or twist here is not going to suddenly make someone know how to sling better.

You might have a throw and know how to do that throw in such a way as to be able to teach someone to mimic your movements and also attain accuracy. Thats all well and good and very helpful and I mean that.

But what few people on these videos seem to discuss is that its not one style that makes you accurate. There are actual, legitmate points in a throw which cause greater or lesser degrees of controlability and repeatability.

These concepts and principles once understood can be applied to many throwing styles. So rather than just teaching one style as the route to accuracy these princples need to be taught as indvidual throw mechanics and then these princples can be plugged into your throw of choice to get good accuracy into that throw. And they are not silly platitudes like "empty your mind" or " feel the stone" . They are actual real concepts based on movement and biomechanics that are very specfic and make perfect sense once understood.

Anyways here I go again. I just love the topic. Just bonk me on the head when I get going to reset my OS.  ;)

Should we invite him to join us?  We love newbies!

Morphy wrote on Apr 26^th, 2021 at 11:37am:

And they are not silly platitudes like "empty your mind" or " feel the stone" .

That's exactly what I tell people to do.  :-[  ;D

Well, not exactly.  My line for a complete beginner is usually something like, "Don't try to time the release, because you'll be wrong.  Release when you feel the stone (or whatever) moving forward."

joe_meadmaker wrote on Apr 28^th, 2021 at 9:10pm:

Morphy wrote on Apr 26th, 2021 at 11:37am: And they are not silly platitudes like "empty your mind" or " feel the stone" . That's exactly what I tell people to do.  :-[  ;D Well, not exactly.  My line for a complete beginner is usually something like, "Don't try to time the release, because you'll be wrong.  Release when you feel the stone (or whatever) moving forward."

But that’s something lol. No maybe I didn’t explain it well.  I say the same things sometimes but if you watch a tutorial and realize you know nothing more than you already did, that’s usually a sign it’s not really teaching that much. I just don’t like watching tutorial videos that don’t actually tell you anything. And it’s not just slinging either. There used to be a few of these way back in the day on youtube. Not sure if they are still up. Those were the good old days man.

Yeah, I'm totally with ya.  When I read that I just started laughing so hard.  :D

Just my idea.
Let's throw away this term of "style" that means nothing.
There are 3 throws. More or less vertical overarm, more or less vertical underarm and more or less horizontal.
There are 3 starting positions for the slingstone. Held in front, hanging on the side and held behind you.
From there, test what suits you. With (1 or more) or without slingstone rotation.
Spin control is only used for control a dreamlined projectile.
After, there are local specificities : old indian, very long sling  in the island of Pacific.
The styles of "double feedback rifle style generated with delayed release" for me mean nothing.  :-/

Just my idea.

well not just  your idea.

That's the way it's been for a long time, I put that forward well over 10 years ago :-)