Slinging.org Forum
https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl
General >> Project Goliath - The History of The Sling >> Indigenous Australian Slingers?
https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1617816820

Message started by Hirtius on Apr 7th, 2021 at 1:33pm

Title: Indigenous Australian Slingers?
Post by Hirtius on Apr 7th, 2021 at 1:33pm
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/002733

https://agrabbagofgames.wordpress.com/2018/01/21/australian-frontier-wars-aboriginal-traditional-warfare-part-ii/

An old thread (http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1367893827) discusses what is already well known about Australia, there were no bows and slings present. Or so we thought. In that thread, some people speculate whether there could have been contact with the idea through the Torres Strait islanders, but we’ll never know for sure. Again, so we thought.

It’s so dumb, but it actually just took a couple of google searches to prove that wrong. We have photos, though extremely limited, but seems to prove the speculation of the Torres islanders/Northern Australians right. Both Torres Islanders and indigenous Australians on the Cape York peninsula seem to have used the bow and sling. Unfortunately I can find little information on this besides that indicating it existed. Even the picture of the slinger is of such poor quality that it’s impossible to see the sling itself. We do know from the label that it’s from 1940, so it persisted into fairly recent times. However, one piece of information the picture contradicts the blog on is the location. It says the picture was made in Darwin, not anywhere in Queensland like the Cape York peninsula. Could it be possible that the sling is even more prevalent in Australia than we know? It might have been used across the Northern coast.

Title: Re: Indigenous Australian Slingers?
Post by Mersa on Apr 7th, 2021 at 7:53pm
As far as I’m aware the sling wasn’t used in Australia, this is the first information I’ve ever seen that shows different.
As for bows they were used. But only by certain groups.

As far as I know the knowledge of braiding and weaving was not used extensively and definitely not used by all indigenous Australians.

Gotta remember Australia is a large place.

By the 1940s it’s wuite possible that the sling had been shown to them by an early settler. There’s no real way to tell. Darwin had many indigenous Australians from all over Australia. This is sad but many of the early settlers enslaved indigenous Australians and moved them all around the country. So it’s possible that if the sling was used in north eastern communities  and some of these people were moved to Darwin.

Honestly though in my opinion the sling and bow were used in the islands north of Australia and could be that there’s some combination of technologies. But it’s also possible the sling was brought in by settlers.

The woomera(Australians version of an atlatl.) and the boomerang are very sufficient tools for hunting Australian native animals. Majority of larger game would be kangaroos and there’s plenty of evidence that these weapons are very effective against these animals.

An interesting find nonetheless.

I think unless they find true historical cave paintings or artefacts it’s all speculation.

Title: Re: Indigenous Australian Slingers?
Post by Hirtius on Apr 7th, 2021 at 9:28pm
I think since we even have a (very bad quality) photo that also discusses context, I think it’s fair to say it’s beyond speculation. The question is how prevalent and where it was used. I’m definitely not saying it was used everywhere, but I did bring up the question whether it was used along the Northern Australian coast, not just Cape York. Perhaps it was just a Cape York group moved, but maybe not.

I’d doubt  the sling was brought in by European settlers, but if you’re discussing from the Torres Strait islands, then maybe. The blog is claiming that it was used on the Cape York peninsula, right next to the Torres Strait islands. It could have been introduced long ago, but probably relatively recently in the big picture.

Title: Re: Indigenous Australian Slingers?
Post by Mersa on Apr 7th, 2021 at 9:44pm
I’m wondering why you doubt it being a technique brought in by settlers?

I say seeing as the only evidence is post colonisation it’s more likely than less.


Title: Re: Indigenous Australian Slingers?
Post by Hirtius on Apr 8th, 2021 at 12:24am
Maybe I’m out of the loop, but were the British still using slings at this point? Probably not. When the British were going to all these islands, the sling was probably something relatively foreign. When they remarked about slingers, it was usually how effective they were. They knew the concept of the sling from the Bible, but had probably not ever seen its use, especially by anyone that good, in action. It doesn’t add up. If you’re arguing that they facilitated the adoption via contact to other islanders, I don’t think anyone could know. There’s barely a record as is.

However, we can look at the context. This was done for visiting American journalists. It was staged, done for show. The native customs were probably being treated as something of a show for tourists.

You’re arguing that within the last couple generations (the European presence probably hadn’t been too great for too long), a British guy introduced slinging, and that got absorbed into the culture enough to be involved in tourist shows?

The simpler answer is that it was probably present precolonial. Northern Australians had contacts outside of Australia. Northern Australia had degrees of outside interaction or cultural exchange for thousands of years. Dingos have only been present there for 4,000 to 8,000 years. It’s impossible to know when a concept like the sling could have been transmitted, but there was lots of time before colonization to do it.

Title: Re: Indigenous Australian Slingers?
Post by Mersa on Apr 8th, 2021 at 2:00am
The British came on boats with limited resources.
They were making do with what they had .
I don’t think it’s unreasonable that one or some of the settlers were proficient in use of the sling .
1940s is pretty late and for sure the photo is a staged photo.
As it states. That the show is an accurate representation of aboriginal culture is definitely not true. The indigenous Australians were mistreated and used as an attraction. It was genocide, most of the cultural significance had been lost or combined with other parts of Australia.  I don’t think you can rule out either hypothesis. It’s possible in my eyes that it could be from contact with other sling users wherever they’re from Britain or PNG.  By the 1940s a lot of tradition was already lost as was language and culture. Australia was changed forever after European colonisation, especially for indigenous communities.

I’m not sure there’s ever going to be enough information on the use of slings in Australia pre colonisation. It’s possible that they were but the majority of evidence points to them not being used. And especially not on a large scale.

Most of the knowledge was passed down generation to generation in songs and stories, practical teaching and hands on. I know at least in my region of Australia the indigenous communities definitely did not sling , braiding was first taught to them by early settlers. And the weapon of choice is a woomera and darts.

I’m not sure either way but drawing conclusions from a single photo from the 40s when aboriginal culture had already been destroyed and they were treated like slaves or pets is kinda wrong. I think the best place to really ask is going the elders from the region you think has the most potential to be using slings.

I could show you a whole load of different photos post colonisation of technology that was adapted or adopted by native people after the British arrived.

A cool find anyway but not a solid enough bit of evidence for me personally and probably not for any scientific journal.


Title: Re: Indigenous Australian Slingers?
Post by Morphy on Apr 8th, 2021 at 9:46am
Its interesting for sure and historical is not my forte but it would be really hard to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this is a verified pre-colonization skill. Just in my opinion and granted I dont know poopy, but in the academic world other anthropologist would be jumping all over this to disprove it. Of course they also do that with things that end up being right so even they are operating under, at best, educated guesses.

If we can find one picture of an aborigine using a rifle from that time period we might make the same argument as absurd as it would be.

Now if you find one sling that carbon dates to pre-colonization you are golden. Much of Australia is dry enough to make that a remote possibility. But obviously thats a big if.

Title: Re: Indigenous Australian Slingers?
Post by Hirtius on Apr 8th, 2021 at 11:38am
I think you guys need to use Occam's razor.

I also think you guys have absurd standards for proof that can't be met. If you guys were looking at North America, you would probably conclude that slings were barely used, when in reality they were spread across the continent. The evidence for Iroquois slinging, for example, seems to all come from the late 1800s and early 1900s. The archeological record often does not do slings any favors.

Title: Re: Indigenous Australian Slingers?
Post by Morphy on Apr 8th, 2021 at 12:49pm
Not really absurd Hirtius. Seeing as this is the current generally accepted scientific consensus on the subject I would say we are actually in the majority.

All I need is one sling proven pre-colonial. I wouldnt call that extreme at all. Quite the opposite actually.

By the way, the Lovelock Cave sling has been dated to 1200 b.c.  So you are both incorrect and have kind of proven my point for me. I just need one example. That will suffice.

Title: Re: Indigenous Australian Slingers?
Post by Hirtius on Apr 8th, 2021 at 4:55pm
Morphy, just... what? The scientific consensus is that slings were introduced by the British? Are you sure about that? I thought the consensus was that slings were never present, hence why I thought the picture and the blog briefly mentioning it were significant.

And yes, I know about the Lovelock Cave sling, it's one of two ancient slings that I know of that have survived to the modern times. Not the point I was making. Lovelock Cave is in Nevada and is rather old, which is a little bit far removed from the Iroquois that I was making the point with. You could swap out Iroquois with any other Native American group, most of which we have no precolonial evidence of use of the sling. Does that mean they didn't use them? Of course not, as we have evidence around it that has survived to today.

You're asking for something that is probably impossible. You're asking for evidence of a weapon that as far as we know would have only been used in the far North, in environments that probably wouldn't preserve slings too well. Any slings that ever survive are pretty much a miracle.

Speaking of miracles, the fact that we have a picture with a good amount of context should also be considered one. How often does that happen with slinging? Coupled with the fact that this (along with use of bows) wasn't thought to have existed in Australia, then there probably hasn't been anyone looking into this subject. There is the book which has pictures taken from it in the blog, but there is no way to find out the title of that book and who wrote it. We don't even know if the culture depicted still slings or if the practice died out like with other cultures. Unfortunately, this is the best information we have on this topic, so we have to draw the best conclusion we can. When guessing whether this was a pre-colonial or colonial introduction, you would be making a lot of assumptions to assume that it was introduced during the colonial period.

Title: Re: Indigenous Australian Slingers?
Post by Morphy on Apr 8th, 2021 at 5:58pm
Youve misunderstood me. I agree with Mersa. There is no evidence of pre colonization slings. I think if Mersa mentioned that he was trying to find common ground.

As for making the best assumption we can for the evidence offered and of course Occams razor I will have have to agree with the hundreds of other researchers that have come to the same conclusion. There is not enough evidence to make that supposition. A picture from the 40s is simply not enough. Im sorry but that is just how it is.

Of course, I dont mind you disagreeing. It doesnt affect me one way or another. Hopefully you dont take offense but thats my belief on the subject. A lack of sufficient evidence is not a detour to theory. I would rather simply respond with "We dont know for sure but as for now there is no evidence sufficient to conclusively prove it existed". That is the most scientifically impartial way of viewing such a situation. Again, you are welcome to disagree.

Title: Re: Indigenous Australian Slingers?
Post by Hirtius on Apr 9th, 2021 at 1:45am
Sorry if I was being a bit harsh. I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think the research you're discussing is as thorough as you think it is. There are even artifacts like these in Australian museums:

https://australian.museum/learn/cultures/atsi-collection/aboriginal-toys/toy-boomerangs/

Regardless of pre or post colonization, these weapons haven't even been acknowledged. Clearly there is a gap in our understanding. From what I've seen, these cases haven't been explored yet. I think that the idea that bows or slings weren't present among indigenous Australians is because that's the case in almost all of the continent, but they probably missed a spot or two.

Title: Re: Indigenous Australian Slingers?
Post by Mersa on Apr 9th, 2021 at 3:17am
No ones arguing about bows.
That photo doesn’t even really show a sling . If it had no caption I wouldn’t say it’s a sling .

Like I said good find but keep researching.

Title: Re: Indigenous Australian Slingers?
Post by Morphy on Apr 9th, 2021 at 4:00am
While I agree there are certainly gaps in knowledge and the possibility that you could be right I must reiterate that lack of evidence is not sufficient to prove the existence or even potential existence of something. On a hypothetical basis Im not opposed to the idea that the sling may have made it to Australia at some point in time even if but briefly but that same hypothetical streak of mine gives credence to the remote possibility that Bigfoot is real. So take all of it with a hefty grain of salt.

I would like to check the link out but its not working for me. Says page not found.

Title: Re: Indigenous Australian Slingers?
Post by TOMBELAINE on Apr 9th, 2021 at 7:30am
Hirtius,
Your research is interesting. But a clue isn't evidence.
Keep working your question, and if there's something to find, you'll find it.
Get closer to archeologists, museums, aboriginal associations, books. It can take time but it's exciting.
If the sling was used, then there's a word in aboriginal language.
:-/

Title: Re: Indigenous Australian Slingers?
Post by IronGoober on Apr 9th, 2021 at 9:46pm
Morphy: https://australian.museum/learn/cultures/atsi-collection/aboriginal-toys/toy-boomerangs



Title: Re: Indigenous Australian Slingers?
Post by Hirtius on Apr 10th, 2021 at 1:08am
Yeah, I’ve noticed links are prone to breaking on the forum because it makes them two lines. They’re toy bows from Arnhem land, which curiously would have been the region and time where the slinging photo was taken. No context on the tradition of bows, if any, from that culture.

And I’m not arguing for absence of evidence to be proof, I’m saying it’s just unexplored. We actually have photos and some surviving artifacts (for bows), there’s just been little to no research into the context around them. Morphy, you’re speaking on a matter of if, when it is now more of why, how, and when. Most of the research that has defined our knowledge of aboriginal tools and weapons was done before anyone could have googled this picture, it might have been focused more in other regions, and the sling could have declined to fall under the radar by the time anyone would have cared.

I’ll admit, the photo’s depiction of the sling is bigfoot quality. The sling itself can barely be distinguished, but you can look at the hand, and the notes give an explanation.

Tombelaine, I unfortunately don’t have access to any Australian materials on this. I’d love to get ahold of the book used in the blog (annoyingly not cited). Even if the word for sling was recorded, which it could easily get overlooked or confused with a slingshot, I still don’t know what ethnic group it was that is in the photo. Even Australians would have trouble following many potential leads, as much of the information might be kept somewhere in Darwin.

Title: Re: Indigenous Australian Slingers?
Post by Mersa on Apr 10th, 2021 at 1:25am
It’s an interesting find, and honestly I’d love that it’s true, that would make the sling present on all continents prior to European settlements.

It would be nice to go nd some other evidence to help with the context of the photos

As for bows, I don’t have the references but I used to argue that bows were also not present, I was informed by a aboriginal friend of mine that it’s not true , he was able to show me multiple photos, records of settlers encountered by tribes using bows and even an old book that was recalling an encounter with aborigines with bows.

These were only available to me through him because usually photos depicting aboriginal people is considered disrespectful to their beliefs. It’s possible that there are other photos that show slinging but they are the property of the people’s descendants. I think more research is definitely warranted ,it could be possible to find information previously unknown.

But the references you supplied are the only accounts I’ve ever seen about slinging.

Title: Re: Indigenous Australian Slingers?
Post by Kick on Apr 10th, 2021 at 3:10am

Morphy wrote on Apr 9th, 2021 at 4:00am:
I would like to check the link out but its not working for me. Says page not found.

The link got split. You have to copy past the full text.

https://australian.museum/learn/cultures/atsi-collection/aboriginal-toys/toy-boomerangs/

It's left out the "merangs/".

I've noticed that sometimes links end up being too long and the forum doesn't like it for some reason so chops them up.

Title: Re: Indigenous Australian Slingers?
Post by Morphy on Apr 10th, 2021 at 10:44am
Thanks guys. Im a bit of a dope.

I looked at it. Sure looks like a bow to me. Possibly one of the worst ive ever seen but ya a bow. Ive seen worse from so called youtube experts but not much. Still really interesting.

And just to be clear...im not against the idea of Australian slinging at all. I love the idea. But need at least one precolonization sling. Australia is a very dry place. If it could last anywhere it should have a good chance there. Ill change my tune in a heartbeat once that one sling is found.

Title: Re: Indigenous Australian Slingers?
Post by Hirtius on Apr 10th, 2021 at 3:30pm
The bows could be a crudely adapted idea, or they could just be so crude because they were meant for or built by kids. There’s also that picture on the blog that may be Australian aboriginals, or it could just be Torres Strait islanders. To be fair, I think Torres Strait islanders and how they survived are also underrated, so even if that picture was of them it would still be meaningful. The blog says (sources not cited)  that bows would have only been in the Torres Strait and Cape York, so it’s curious that the only bows collected are toys from Arnhem Land further West.

Mersa, that’s fascinating that you were able to confirm that! Do you have any more details on where they were used or any info about them? Aboriginal bows could probably be its own thread.

Back to slinging, we don’t have precolonial evidence for slinging in much of the world. Sub-Saharan Africa does have a few photos and collected slings that survive until today, but no solid pre-colonial evidence. The two ancient slings from the Americas and a sling or two surviving from Egypt are quite unusual finds. Many areas of the world where slings were used, including the parts of Australia in which it was used, might not have the best conditions for preservation. Even then, a sling has to be placed in the right spot for it to get preserved. Written evidence can also confirm pre-contact slinging by discussing it in the first contact, but oftentimes written accounts might be hundreds of years later. For some areas the sling is never mentioned at all even if it’s present, as it depends on whether the writer is impressed by it or dismissive of it.

Since slinging is very rarely the prestigious weapon, it is liable to get ignored even when that group that once used it looks back. For example, slings were used all over the Americas, but for many Native American groups it lost relevancy and remembrance during the first half of the 1900s. It’s unfortunately the nature of slings that we might have to speculate a bit to the best of the knowledge we have.

So Morphy, you’ll probably have to remain in suspense. On my end, I’m limited to whatever the internet has on this. Even Australians would find it difficult to search archives or to take a very long trip up to Darwin to look for a needle in a haystack that may or may not even be there. There is a dim light at the end of this tunnel, in that the blog has taken pictures from an unknown book that has a picture and label of a sling among aboriginal weapons. I believe there is a direction in which this can be explored more, it’s just a matter of where that next step might be.

Title: Re: Indigenous Australian Slingers?
Post by Morphy on Apr 10th, 2021 at 7:09pm
For me I wouldnt even need a sling from each area. Even one in any part of Australia is enough to accept the strong possibility that it was used throughout the continent. So for example any sling evidence whether it be obvious glandes, lots of historical or cultural writing or spoken history or of course a sling itself is fine. You will see one of those three if not 2 or 3 in the vast majority of places with a significant history of it.

So if its in Egypt its not a stretch for me to believe that they existed in parts of sub-saharan Africa that has no evidence of it.

For example, in North America there is plenty of evidence of trade taking place between tribes. With obsidian or Osage being found hundreds if not a thousand miles outside of their natural range. So, if it exists somewhere on a contigous land mass its not a stretch at all to believe it existed everywhere at least at times.

Obviously some places it wouldve made more sense. What is the stone situation down there like? That may play a part as well. As would prey animals and other things.

Im in the process of researching for a book I will be writing on this subject. Basically how different cultures used different weapon and tool sets based on a wide variety of different factors and what we in the modern bush craft renaissance can learn from these choices.

Good questions. Always eager to hear what you have to bring to the table Hirtius as I am with everyone here.

Title: Re: Indigenous Australian Slingers?
Post by Mersa on Apr 10th, 2021 at 8:55pm
Like I said it’s a very good possibility that the people were moved to the Northern Territory. It was common back then for them to be moved out of their communities and treated wrongly.

I wish I could contact him again but he was a work colleague and I don’t have any contact details for him. He was extremely passionate about his heritage and proud. From memory the accounts of settlers were along the north east , so very consistent with what you stated. The photos were all actually on Facebook and supplied buy an elder through personal message. It was a lunchtime conversation about my sling that evolved into a discussion about aboriginal technology. He was very eager to get the pictures for me to see.

During the discussion he said he has no knowledge of slings being used and neither did the elder.

I don’t think the sling is so technical that it couldn’t have been made crudely.  A strip of animal hide perhaps.

Every person I’ve ever encountered that may have insider knowledge on the subject seems to say it’s a no or unknown.

Also a wommera serves many purposes and could be used to hurl stones.


Title: Re: Indigenous Australian Slingers?
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 11th, 2021 at 2:32pm
is there any likelyhood that polynesians ever visited australia ?
We know they had slings.

Can't think of any other reason they'd have them in australia.

The aboriginal culture was virtually unchanged for - possibly - tens of thousands of years.
Probably much longer, long enough for evidence of whatever predator the kangaroos evolved to leap away from to be erased.

Only the aborigenes could have wiped them out - whatever they were.
So they've been there a very long time.

Title: Re: Indigenous Australian Slingers?
Post by Albion Slinger on Apr 12th, 2021 at 11:21am

Hirtius wrote on Apr 8th, 2021 at 12:24am:
Maybe I’m out of the loop, but were the British still using slings at this point? Probably not. When the British were going to all these islands, the sling was probably something relatively foreign. When they remarked about slingers, it was usually how effective they were. They knew the concept of the sling from the Bible, but had probably not ever seen its use, especially by anyone that good, in action. It doesn’t add up. If you’re arguing that they facilitated the adoption via contact to other islanders, I don’t think anyone could know. There’s barely a record as is.

That's an unfounded assumption. As it happens, I have met a couple of older folk from England who have told me anecdotes of slinging as a boy, and one told a story about their father, who talked to a group of boys that did regularly slinging at the docks (late 19th early 20thc?)
In some parts of England it wasn't that uncommon, for example in the north east it was apparently a tradition kept alive since the Roman occupation where they were employed as slingers (and legend says hit targets the size of quarter barrel at 200y).
Some rural folk also still used the sling to scare birds off fruit trees or crops, but also as a toy. It certainly was not 'forgotten' in certain regions, and no doubt some were very good. It's also very likely the further you go back, the more prevalent it was (especially before industrialisation). I think it's very plausible that a colonist could have brought the idea over. A simple and powerful weapon that can be made from grass is certainly going to appeal to folk who live by basic technologies made from nature.

Title: Re: Indigenous Australian Slingers?
Post by Mersa on Apr 12th, 2021 at 7:36pm
My point exactly Albion. There’s to much to consider with too little evidence, as much as I wish it were true at this stage I think the jury’s out

Slinging.org Forum » Powered by YaBB 2.5.2!
YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2024. All Rights Reserved.