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Message started by Morphy on Mar 29th, 2021 at 9:44pm

Title: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Morphy on Mar 29th, 2021 at 9:44pm
Hello all,

Itís that time again! I think this could be even more important than the abstract sling design thread. Iíve had extensive conversation in private with half a dozen people on this subject and the things that have been proposed have been nothing short of incredible. I really hope you all will take part in this thread!

Of course there will be a prize or prizes. But thatís not the most important part. The ways that ammo design can change and improve slinging are almost unlimited.

Please take part if this subject at all interests you! As with the Abstract Sling Design thread theories are fine but to be eligible to win you must have a prototype with at least a picture and it must be ďreasonablyĒ likely to work. Lol.

Taping a laser pointer to a rock and calling it a laser guided glande would be funny, but wonít qualify you for the prize.  ;D

Lastly, thereís a new prize in these threads! A door prize! Even if you think your idea is not quite as good as the other entries, if you post it and itís a legitimate design you are eligible for the door prize!!! All entries will be put in a hat and a random name will be pulled on video. The winner gets a prize even if your entry doesnít get a single vote!

So, if that hasnít convinced you, lastly know you will grace the Hall of Fame for the rest of this year. Women will stand in awe of you. Men will take off their hat as you pass and children will throw away their Batman pajamas and replace them with YOU pajamas.

So join one and all!!! Let the contest begin!!!  :D ;)

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Mersa on Mar 29th, 2021 at 10:08pm
Iím in !!! Letís do this .

Areas of improvement in my eyes are

Ammo retention (not losing or breaking)

Specialised Distance projectile

Specialised sling tag ammo

Specialised Hunting ammo (touchy subject)

Night time ammo

Indoor ammo.

Man list goes on

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by SerKraus on Mar 30th, 2021 at 12:34am
I canít wait to participate! ;D

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Apr 1st, 2021 at 12:40am
Wool dryer balls are great indoor/tag ammo... but thatís not an entry.  Itís a statement Iíve said before.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Morphy on Apr 1st, 2021 at 7:02am

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Apr 1st, 2021 at 12:40am:
Wool dryer balls are great indoor/tag ammo... but thatís not an entry.† Itís a statement Iíve said before.


I want to sling a super bouncy ball in a small room. Why? Because some people just want to watch the world burn...

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 1st, 2021 at 11:32am
so are we going with mersa's categories ?
makes more sense than to lump in collapsed deuterium glandes with piezo electric stun balls.

In theory i have two.
1 is proven and used the world over - I've just never documented it.
And the other I can possibly design, just still not sure about how to manufacture one lol
Plus it would reallyu work best with a smoke trail - I mean that part i can do.
Hmm, now there's an idea.

What's the time limit on this ?

So yeah I'm in.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Mersa on Apr 1st, 2021 at 11:42am
I wasnít intending on making categories just saying there are areas where you could make something special.

Iím excited about this one . I have a few ideas as well

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Apr 1st, 2021 at 12:36pm
I have one word...

ďHaduken!Ē

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 1st, 2021 at 12:54pm
categories are good.
:-)
I have spoken (yeah I've watched it)

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Morphy on Apr 1st, 2021 at 1:27pm

Curious Aardvark wrote on Apr 1st, 2021 at 11:32am:
so are we going with mersa's categories ?
makes more sense than to lump in collapsed deuterium glandes with piezo electric stun balls.

In theory i have two.
1 is proven and used the world over - I've just never documented it.
And the other I can possibly design, just still not sure about how to manufacture one lol
Plus it would reallyu work best with a smoke trail - I mean that part i can do.
Hmm, now there's an idea.

What's the time limit on this ?

So yeah I'm in.


People can choose a category and his list is good. But if someone has something outside the list they want to add I have no problem with that.

The Abstract Sling Design went on for a little bit. Im thinking at least a month to a month and a half for this thread.

But this time I will gather up the entries at the end and the voting thread will be separate. The other way was a bit confusing until we ended up doing it like that.

Today is April 1st. Lets shoot for May 10th. That gives even the busiest among us time to knock out a good design.

This is the Way.  ;)

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Duckhands on Apr 1st, 2021 at 4:50pm
I got tons of ideas on this. I'll have to start making some. Is it too late to get in on the abstract sling thread too?

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Morphy on Apr 1st, 2021 at 6:43pm

Duckhands wrote on Apr 1st, 2021 at 4:50pm:
I got tons of ideas on this. I'll have to start making some. Is it too late to get in on the abstract sling thread too?


Too late to win as Zud has already done that but you are always welcome to post more.

Next years Sling Design thread hopefully will have even more people and im sure the prizes will be just as good if not better.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by joe_meadmaker on Apr 1st, 2021 at 8:06pm
Feathers on the sides of the pouch didn't work.† But I'm pretty certain that if I put feathers on the sides of an ice ball...err....never mind.† ;)

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Mersa on Apr 2nd, 2021 at 5:59pm
Do it joe!!!!

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Apr 3rd, 2021 at 8:30am

Mersa wrote on Apr 2nd, 2021 at 5:59pm:
Do it joe!!!!


Do it.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by xud9a - call me zud 👍 on Apr 3rd, 2021 at 8:46am
Do it   [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 3rd, 2021 at 10:06am
well if you attach the feather to a twisted piece of elastic and then freeze it in the ice ball.

As it travels through the air, the ice will meltt, the elastic will unravel and the feather will 'flap'

And that's how quiddich was invented :-)

The only slightly tricky part is keeping the elastic twisted while being frozen.
You could probably trap the ends in the iceball mould.

'Course if you're using those cheap ice bags to make the balls (what I'd probably do) then it won't work :-)

Meanwhile back in a workshop in derbyshire, the 'jet-engine' glande is quietly taking shape......
Just had that lightbulb moment !
Hot damn, I really CAN make an easily mass produced jet engine glande. Better get on it :-) Just got to work out how small a turbine I can produce lol this is gonna be fun.
Ain't technology wonderful :-)

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Morphy on Apr 3rd, 2021 at 10:48am
I would like to cordially invite all taking part in this to suck it. This is my submission for the contest.

Each glande is made from hand selected organic material. Wrapped in a space age polymer for extra durability with a stabilizer on the back that is evolutionairly designed for flight. The whole thing is 100% mostly biodegradable and the flight characteristics are like nothing youve ever tried.

A great deal of testing over the last 5 minutes has gone into creating the finest sling ammunition that can be made with materials in arms reach.

For formalitie's sake let's go ahead and permit the rest of the submissions to at least be posted. A vote wont be necessary and would only postpone the inevitable.

Thanks all for your congratulations. Adoration is both expected and potentially graciously accepted.










Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 3rd, 2021 at 11:34am
I'll let you have the elastic iceballs idea- out of sympathy :whistle: :-)

interesting looking glande on the screen.
if the extruding tube on the left was made from thin copper tubing and filled with a small rocket motor - you might have something :-)

If you timed the fuse to ignite in midair, could add a fair bit of distance. Presumably the 'knobbly bits' on the surface act to spin the glande more efficinetly.
And if not - why not ? lol


Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Morphy on Apr 3rd, 2021 at 11:44am
Well damn that backfired. I suppose I shouldve known your eyes would be drawn to the one piece of tech in the picture. Yes that was the graphic I was working on for this thread until I decided Im too lazy to finish it. Its funny you mentioned rocket powered glande. I guess if we want to see an actual RPG we will have to wait and see what you come up with.† 8-) 8-)

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 3rd, 2021 at 12:12pm
lol these days I tend to avoid anything that might be construed as 'terroist activities'.

Smoke glandes, yeah probably.
Mind you that said the rocket motor is only icing sugar and kno3. Either melted over heat and if you don't have electric heating - don't do it over a flame :-).
Or made into a slurry for the sensible person and force dried.


Adjust amounts and add a little flour to make different burn length smoke mixtures :-)

I'm currently designing a teeny tiny jet turbine lol

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 3rd, 2021 at 12:31pm
lol if these actually print they'll weigh about 0.25 grams :-)

I have done much smaller - but not for a few years.

A bit later...

well that worked :-)
to put this into perspective. The fan is 12mm diameter and walls and blades are 0.5mm thick/wide.
I went for 5 blades with an overall 30 degree twist.
Figured that gave the best overall airflow to surface area.
But if you want to do proper math and let me know what the optimal number of blades and degree of twist is - be my guest :-)

Gotta wait for the big machine to be free before I can make the special mould this insert is for.
probably be an overnight machine run.

But all things being equal - I should be able to make turbo powered glandes tomorrow :-)

And yes the kit will be for sale.
I'll probably make the fans from PET - which should survive the gland smashing up and be reuseable. 
These test ones are just pla - which is tough, but also more brittle than pet.

As you can see - if you squint, hard things to photograph - I've done a left and right thread.
I 'think' a right handed throw gives a clockwise rotation and a left hand throw an anti-wise one.

Got to find the video of me and the ball david made. That shows the spin quite clearly.

But yeah - this is pretty much a done deal :-)

I have absolutely no idea if it will work or not, but it should turn rotational momentum into longitudinal thrust.
Theoretically.
I think.
Maybe
...............
1fan__Small_.jpg (44 KB | 9 )
2fan__Small_.jpg (39 KB | 10 )

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 3rd, 2021 at 1:54pm
scale the fans up, attach to a waterproof dynamo and drop in a stream and you've got a hydro-electric generator :-)

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 3rd, 2021 at 2:00pm
the smoke producing glandes would be really useful for distance slinging.

1) the longer they are in the air the lighter they get, so should get extra distance, maybe.
2) you'll actually be able to find the little buggers !
3) as the pyro compound is conyained inside the clay glande, it should not set fire to anything.   

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 3rd, 2021 at 3:07pm
So there's proper evil genius cackling going on in the Aardvark burrow tonight !

Fans made from flexible polyurethane.
basically reuseable until you lose them - pretty much unbreakable.

Had a play and made some 4 bladed fans with 40 degree twist and slightly thicker outer wall and tweaked the print settings slightly.
They look like they should scoop as much air and print a lot cleaner. Pretty much none of the 'webbing' you can see in the animation.

Right now to decide on a colour and print the glande mould :-)

The glande will have a hollow centre that starts at 12mm for input and narrows down to 8mm for the 'exhaust'.

The same glabndes could also be used with a shaped smoke compound insert.


squash_fan.gif (137 KB | 9 )

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Morphy on Apr 3rd, 2021 at 6:12pm
Holy crap CA...

You arent messing around man. I do have plans for a really important design but damn thats a hard act to follow. Might have to go with my 2nd design. Ya those fans could be incorporated in many different designs. Its one of the things that was talked about in our discussions on ammo.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Duckhands on Apr 3rd, 2021 at 6:27pm

Curious Aardvark wrote on Apr 3rd, 2021 at 3:07pm:
So there's proper evil genius cackling going on in the Aardvark burrow tonight !

Fans made from flexible polyurethane.
basically reuseable until you lose them - pretty much unbreakable.

Had a play and made some 4 bladed fans with 40 degree twist and slightly thicker outer wall and tweaked the print settings slightly.
They look like they should scoop as much air and print a lot cleaner. Pretty much none of the 'webbing' you can see in the animation.

Right now to decide on a colour and print the glande mould :-)

The glande will have a hollow centre that starts at 12mm for input and narrows down to 8mm for the 'exhaust'.

The same glabndes could also be used with a shaped smoke compound insert.


Hmm this gets the gears rolling in my head. Those kind of remind my of a tiny whoop drone duct. Gives me an idea as well. I might have to bust out my laptop and make some models.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 3rd, 2021 at 6:49pm

Morphy wrote on Apr 3rd, 2021 at 6:12pm:
Holy crap CA...

You arent messing around man. I do have plans for a really important design but damn thats a hard act to follow. Might have to go with my 2nd design. Ya those fans could be incorporated in many different designs. Its one of the things that was talked about in our discussions on ammo.

Well if you will leave me out of these things....
That went from idea to finished production in an afternoon.
Guys I've had over thirty years to think of just about every type of sling ammo imaginable.
And these days I've got the skills, equipment and materials to make most of them.
Just saying :whistle:

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Morphy on Apr 3rd, 2021 at 8:53pm
Im glad you are taking part. Cant wait to see the squishy fans in use. Regardless of the amount of tech and skill involved in making these they shall forever be known to me as squishy fans. Really curious to see them in action...  :o

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Mersa on Apr 3rd, 2021 at 9:43pm
Man CA your gonna get me jealous.
Some great ideas in there. Canít wait to see what you come up with.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by TOMBELAINE on Apr 4th, 2021 at 5:47am
Slingstones for Easter Holiday.
Abundant and cheap.
The eggs of Easter  :D


img169.jpg (103 KB | 6 )

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Morphy on Apr 4th, 2021 at 9:55am
I like it! Death by chocolate is something I can get behind.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by IronGoober on Apr 4th, 2021 at 5:25pm
Here is my entry. This is the sling judo point. It is designed so that when the front point hits a target, wires pop out of the sides and catch on the ground/grasss to make it easier to retrieve.

The design could be built relatively easily on a lathe/mill, but this is 3D printed. 25mm radius, aspect ratio 1.5. I calculated that a 20mm radius and 1.5 aspect ratio would be ~50g if printed fully dense. I'll probably try that next. This version seems to work ok, the wires pop out as intended.

The OpenSCAD is available and is parametric. If you want to change the size or aspect ratio, the two parameters at the top will do it.
SlingJudoPoint_closed.jpg (55 KB | 5 )
SlingJudoPoint_open.jpg (55 KB | 4 )

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by joe_meadmaker on Apr 4th, 2021 at 6:41pm
That's pretty cool man!

Any test results yet?† Or is this more of a theoretical model?

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by IronGoober on Apr 4th, 2021 at 6:58pm
It's a prototype to test functionality of the mechanism. It worked (video1). Unfortunately, further testing is postponed until a denser version can be printed. See video 2.

Plastic isn't the best choice for sling projectiles. Or at least 3D printed plastic that isn't flexible.
https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=SlingJudoPoint_functionTest.mp4 (1594 KB | 25 )
https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=SlingJudoPoint_failedTest_1.mp4 (6631 KB | 26 )

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Mersa on Apr 4th, 2021 at 8:42pm
So awesome IG !!!
Canít wait to see this evolve

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Morphy on Apr 4th, 2021 at 9:14pm
That is truly amazing IG. I canít believe this all stemmed from one late night conversation. The fact that you put in that much thought and work is mind blowing to me. Like Mersa I canít wait to see how this evolves.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by xud9a - call me zud 👍 on Apr 4th, 2021 at 9:50pm
Yet more inspiring  material.

Thank you

Zud [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Mersa on Apr 4th, 2021 at 11:12pm
Obviously itís a few blades away from an expandable razor glande

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Morphy on Apr 5th, 2021 at 12:10am

Mersa wrote on Apr 4th, 2021 at 11:12pm:
Obviously itís a few blades away from an expandable razor glande


The highest form any glande can achieve.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Duckhands on Apr 5th, 2021 at 1:23am

Morphy wrote on Apr 5th, 2021 at 12:10am:

Mersa wrote on Apr 4th, 2021 at 11:12pm:
Obviously itís a few blades away from an expandable razor glande


The highest form any glande can achieve.

Just wait until I take a few minutes in my 3d software ;D

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Morphy on Apr 5th, 2021 at 12:36pm

Duckhands wrote on Apr 5th, 2021 at 1:23am:

Morphy wrote on Apr 5th, 2021 at 12:10am:

Mersa wrote on Apr 4th, 2021 at 11:12pm:
Obviously itís a few blades away from an expandable razor glande


The highest form any glande can achieve.

Just wait until I take a few minutes in my 3d software ;D


Such a thing cannot just be put out there. How does one improve upon perfection? Is there a "razorer glande" we are not aware of yet? Are you in possession of ancient Turkish texts?

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Duckhands on Apr 5th, 2021 at 4:36pm

Morphy wrote on Apr 5th, 2021 at 12:36pm:

Duckhands wrote on Apr 5th, 2021 at 1:23am:

Morphy wrote on Apr 5th, 2021 at 12:10am:

Mersa wrote on Apr 4th, 2021 at 11:12pm:
Obviously itís a few blades away from an expandable razor glande


The highest form any glande can achieve.

Just wait until I take a few minutes in my 3d software ;D


Such a thing cannot just be put out there. How does one improve upon perfection? Is there a "razorer glande" we are not aware of yet? Are you in possession of ancient Turkish texts?

Hahaha, I might just. I am excited to start modeling up some prototypes. I haven't touched my 3d software in a while. I might bust out my flyswatter dart model and alter it into a glandy... if you get what I'm saying lol

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 5th, 2021 at 5:16pm
well the fans aren't quite that squishy any more.
And they are pretty rigid vertically - basically you need a hammer to squash them vertically.

tried a few things and ended up with a 0.8mm outer wall, three blades (I actually printed a whole bunch of 4 blade fans - but, umm, all left handed spin - yeah it was one of those days lol) at 40 degree pitch.

It just looks right - and that's the core principle of the scientific method, isn't it :whistle:

I could† create a sharper angle - but i'd also need to increase the wall thickness. And that would reduce air flow.

The hole through the glande starts out with an 12mm x 8mm socket for the fan, then gradually narrows to an 8mm aperture at the back.

How is that hole done ?
Well, magic - obviously :-)

So anyway here's the first couple.

These are 30x60mm Jet glandes with a couple solid ones for comparison.
It's my favourite size.

And yes, that's the official name: Jet Glandes

I'll give them a couple days gentle drying and then check weights and dimensions.
This is really firm clay - so you don't get much shrinkage.

I also suspect they'll whistle. There's a definite noise when you blow through them.
A simple lead glande makes a noise like a swarm of bees. I suspect these will be louder.

I have no idea where I'll test them.
I'll probably use my short edc sling. The best place I have to sling and see where a glande lands is only 500 metres from a road. (lol 'only')
But it's all down hill so you have a perfect view of whether there's anyone around.

Like I said I'll give them a couple days to harden.
And that folks is entry number 1.

And if you're wondering about the last picture. There is just something wholly satisfying about making really tiny things that come out without needing any post processing.
Each one takes approximately 3.5 minutes to make and uses 0.3 gms of flexible polyurethane.
For the really observant - the little bumps in the wall of the box contain magnets so i can stick the box to any magnet friendly surface.

The second entry requires me to video stuff and that always takes more time :-)
three_blade_fan__Small_.jpg (43 KB | 6 )
fan_through__Small_.jpg (58 KB | 5 )
frontback__Small_.jpg (84 KB | 4 )
2x2__Small_.jpg (72 KB | 7 )
jetglandes__Small_.jpg (48 KB | 5 )
massproduction__Small_.jpg (83 KB | 5 )

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Duckhands on Apr 5th, 2021 at 6:22pm
Those are looking pretty sick CA. I was planning something similar as well for one of my ideas.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by SerKraus on Apr 5th, 2021 at 7:04pm
Can't they also be made of lead? I'm sure you could cast it as one piece!† ;D

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Morphy on Apr 5th, 2021 at 8:00pm
This thread is rapidly spinning outside of any humble vision I had for a contest...this is crazy guys. Crazy in the best way.  :D

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Mersa on Apr 6th, 2021 at 4:37am
Wow
CA they look awesome.
Just chuck a few of those in my sith parcel as a sweetener???

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Kick on Apr 6th, 2021 at 5:08am
Cool! I definitely want to see them in action.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 6th, 2021 at 8:01am
Pretty sure the only way to actually see them in action is to be the person slinging them.
They are for distance, so even a high resolution video will lose track after about 100 metres.

I'll make some more tonight as there's just no way I'll be able to find and retrieve these after throwing.
I'll make some pla blades as that's a lot more environmentally friendly and can even be ingested without causing harm. Well dream's crunched enough prints up over the years.

For the smoke glandes I'll use a smaller 50x30 mould and a simple recess rather than a complete through hole. Pretty sure I've got a bag of fuse paper around somewhere.

My only concern with the jet gkandes flight profile is that the back end is heavier than the front. I'm hoping the thrust will compensate and either give it more altitude of push it straight.
We'll see :-)

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Sarosh on Apr 8th, 2021 at 9:57am
I don't know if they are abstract enough but here's some https://youtu.be/RtaJFry50Ps

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Morphy on Apr 8th, 2021 at 10:05am
I have an idea for a simple one, and one that could hopefully replace the shotgun sling as a reasonable and more effective solution but havent bothered to make it yet.

The one that I really think will change target slinging forever will be autostop ammo. Ammo that can be slung a known distance and then causes serious drag to drop it mid air parachute style. It will allow people to have actual expensive sets of premimum ammo without fear of losing them. Backstops will no longer be needed to be a serious target slinger. Target slinging will be possible anywhere within reason at any time. But so far no one has come up with the answer.

As it stands that is the one thing that prevents me from practicing all the time. This absolutely maddening pattern of making or buying perfect ammo and despite ridiculous lengths taken to find them all they eventually all disappear. What a PITA.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by SerKraus on Apr 8th, 2021 at 10:19am

Sarosh wrote on Apr 8th, 2021 at 9:57am:
I don't know if they are abstract enough but here's some https://youtu.be/RtaJFry50Ps


Definitely abstract enough.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by IronGoober on Apr 8th, 2021 at 8:50pm
Those are great, Sarosh!† I like the one with the fins. It makes me think that a mechanical broadhead (similar to archery, but heavier) for the sling would actually be a pretty decent projectile.

Clearly, you'd really need to hone your skill to have a rifled release each time.

It makes me wonder if a stiffer sling would be warranted for your testing (along the lines of J's latest musings).  It might help with getting a rifled release.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by joe_meadmaker on Apr 8th, 2021 at 9:13pm
Nice Sarosh!† Wicked looking stuff!

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Sarosh on Apr 9th, 2021 at 6:09am
thanks!

IronGoober wrote on Apr 8th, 2021 at 8:50pm:
It makes me wonder if a stiffer sling would be warranted for your testing (along the lines of J's latest musings).  It might help with getting a rifled release.


sure, the sling is paracord and is a little long for the task. I don't have a good split pouch right now so I went with it.


IronGoober wrote on Apr 8th, 2021 at 8:50pm:
I like the one with the fins. It makes me think that a mechanical broadhead (similar to archery, but heavier) for the sling would actually be a pretty decent projectile.


I thought the fins could be replaced by blades, but as you've seen opening by spin destabilizes it, so it's better to go for a design more similar to a mechanical broadhead that opens on impact.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by IronGoober on Apr 9th, 2021 at 9:30pm

Sarosh wrote on Apr 9th, 2021 at 6:09am:
I thought the fins could be replaced by blades, but as you've seen opening by spin destabilizes it, so it's better to go for a design more similar to a mechanical broadhead that opens on impact.

Agreed, that is what I was thinking.

I also wonder the simplest way to design something that pushes a flag or something out of the back so it can be found if it buries itself in the ground, it would be great for long distance slinging. I have some ideas, but none that I like.  The main one being a brightly colored ribbon in a central hole in the gland and a primer that fires and ejects the ribbon when the point is hit. A spring might be able to replace the primer, so it's reusable, but I haven't come up with a simple/robust enough trigger and locking mechanism.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Mersa on Apr 9th, 2021 at 10:10pm
Nice work Sarosh, great video as always

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Sarosh on Apr 10th, 2021 at 3:24am

IronGoober wrote on Apr 9th, 2021 at 9:30pm:
The main one being a brightly colored ribbon in a central hole in the gland and a primer that fires and ejects the ribbon when the point is hit. A spring might be able to replace the primer, so it's reusable, but I haven't come up with a simple/robust enough trigger and locking mechanism.


I have tried ribbon(string) on rebar most of the time it released smoothly other times it catches with the sling. It helps A LOT with finding the ammo.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Kick on Apr 10th, 2021 at 3:48am
I made this a few years back from a plumb bob and I remember it working well and leaving a gnarly dent in the frying pan target (photo evidence provided), but when I tried it again more recently, I could NOT get it to fly straight point forwards. Didn't matter what orientation I had it in the pouch it just wouldn't go point first. *Shrug*
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Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Morphy on Apr 10th, 2021 at 6:09am
Vanes might make a bigger difference in orientation than a tassel but if it was flying well before im guessing something imperceptible about your throw has changed. I can only speak for myself here but ive noticed sometimes small things can cause dramatic differences in flight characteristics.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by SerKraus on Apr 10th, 2021 at 9:54am
I'm gonna have to get an old frying pan lol

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Kick on Apr 10th, 2021 at 3:33pm

Morphy wrote on Apr 10th, 2021 at 6:09am:
Vanes might make a bigger difference in orientation than a tassel but if it was flying well before im guessing something imperceptible about your throw has changed. I can only speak for myself here but ive noticed sometimes small things can cause dramatic differences in flight characteristics.

Yeah I'll have to give it a go again sometime.


SerKraus wrote on Apr 10th, 2021 at 9:54am:
I'm gonna have to get an old frying pan lol

This one has been perfect. Super big pan that has stood up pretty well to all the abuse I've put it through. The staff slings are beginning to fold it in half though so I might need to hammer it flat again sometime soon. Picture from when I first go it.
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Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by SerKraus on Apr 10th, 2021 at 9:52pm
Is there an after picture?

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Kick on Apr 11th, 2021 at 10:11am
Taken just today :D Pretty mangled and rusty but still in one piece. I have to say I'm impressed with the strength of the handles which I've hit many many times.
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Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Apr 11th, 2021 at 12:41pm
Flip it over and sling at the other side... good as new!

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Morphy on Apr 11th, 2021 at 1:43pm
Either youve been slinging at that thing for awhile or its transforming into its final form.

Is there a pan equivalent of Cthulhu?

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by SerKraus on Apr 11th, 2021 at 3:11pm
That pan is metal af

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Kick on Apr 12th, 2021 at 1:47am
It's gone pretty Mad Max. Most of the really big dents are from staff slings. You can see in the last photo one point that's particularly pointed and a bit shiny, that's where the plumb bob hit point on. Very nearly poked a hole all the way through.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Apr 12th, 2021 at 3:08pm
That pan is a pretty good argument for why shields are better than helmets if you have to pick only one. Iíd much rather keep those impacts at arms length!

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Kick on Apr 13th, 2021 at 4:09am
True. This pan is also thicker and made of better quality metal than a lot of ancient helmets. I dread to think what a staff sling would do to a person if it hit them in the head even with a helmet on. Those edge deformations on the pan are kind of terrifying honestly.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by quentonium on Apr 14th, 2021 at 7:49am
For those In America looking for a ready made circular target:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001BQZ7AU/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_glc_fabc_GZFGQ519JMY94XQ52RXB?psc=1

Picked up 4 of the 19" version, but only because I'm impatient and didn't want to wait until May for the 18", which I Suspect would be better for improving accuracy for Balearic style competition training (20" pan is about $20 bucks; no gracias)

Plan to glue at least 2 together to reinforce the thin 18ga thickness of the metal, which should give me some good use; at least while using tennis balls. I suspect once I step up to rocks these pans are going to get obliterated.

Was going to check local thrift shops and discount stores to look for old circular pans, but because it's Hawaii is almost impossible to find something this cheap in ideal dimensions. May the target gods be ever in my favor with this new project

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Kick on Apr 14th, 2021 at 7:57am
Yeah I found this pan on Facebook and felt very lucky to find it.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Morphy on Apr 14th, 2021 at 5:10pm
Ive been using dense foam balls lately quentonium. They are over 4 oz and sling really well but would probably not hurt the pans if glued to a backing. Youre right though about stones. Doubt they would last even one day of heavy stone slinging. One hour for that matter lol. Would be tons of fun though.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by quentonium on Apr 16th, 2021 at 6:05am

Morphy wrote on Apr 14th, 2021 at 5:10pm:
Ive been using dense foam balls lately quentonium. They are over 4 oz and sling really well but would probably not hurt the pans if glued to a backing. Youre right though about stones. Doubt they would last even one day of heavy stone slinging. One hour for that matter lol. Would be tons of fun though.


Thanks for the recommendations, Morphy. Where did you order your balls from?

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by quentonium on Apr 16th, 2021 at 6:12am
Made these tonight after seeing a video on how to convert tennis balls into juggling balls.

One is filled with adzuki beans (left over from the beginnings of the pandemic) and one with rice. The rice ball seems a tad bit heavier/denser (but not much) and is technically cheaper to make. Might experiment with sand in the future. Will have a go to see how long they hold up going full speed at a target.

http://imgur.com/a/aU2Zup9

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Kick on Apr 16th, 2021 at 6:45am
What sort of weight are they?

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Duckhands on Apr 16th, 2021 at 6:58am

quentonium wrote on Apr 16th, 2021 at 6:05am:

Morphy wrote on Apr 14th, 2021 at 5:10pm:
Ive been using dense foam balls lately quentonium. They are over 4 oz and sling really well but would probably not hurt the pans if glued to a backing. Youre right though about stones. Doubt they would last even one day of heavy stone slinging. One hour for that matter lol. Would be tons of fun though.


Thanks for the recommendations, Morphy. Where did you order your balls from?

On amazon just search for foam practice golf balls in bulk. Can get like 20 something of them for about $8

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by quentonium on Apr 16th, 2021 at 7:01am

Kick wrote on Apr 16th, 2021 at 6:45am:
What sort of weight are they?


They feel slightly less than double the weight of tennis balls, so I'm assuming around 3-3.5 oz

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Morphy on Apr 16th, 2021 at 12:37pm

quentonium wrote on Apr 16th, 2021 at 6:05am:

Morphy wrote on Apr 14th, 2021 at 5:10pm:
Ive been using dense foam balls lately quentonium. They are over 4 oz and sling really well but would probably not hurt the pans if glued to a backing. Youre right though about stones. Doubt they would last even one day of heavy stone slinging. One hour for that matter lol. Would be tons of fun though.


Thanks for the recommendations, Morphy. Where did you order your balls from?


https://www.dollartree.com/all-star-sports-rubber-baseballs-3-in/159467

These are the ones I use. 4.3 oz so almost baseball weight. They sling absolutely amazing. I could use these in practice the rest of my life and be quite happy. Very dense foam/rubber. I sling mine against a rough, jagged stone wall and they last awhile. I tend to sling them quite hard as well. Against a flexible backstop they would last a very long time.

Also they would not kill if they hit someone. They would definitely hit hard but non lethal. Much safer than a rusty ball but in my opinion they work way better. I use a split pouch balearic and they work great.

https://youtu.be/GyVt_EwhKCs

You can see they fly fast. No kiddie stuff here.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by SerKraus on Apr 16th, 2021 at 8:43pm
That reminds me of these https://www.dollartree.com/colorful-rubber-balls-3ct-packs/226360

They fly very very far. During my birthday party, I slang my last one while standing at the edge of a soft ball field and it flew well over the tree line (which was also well beyond the softball field!). Everyone was speechless; especially after slinging nothing but tennis balls.  ;D

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Morphy on Apr 17th, 2021 at 12:33am
Yep bought 2 packs of those as well. They are in the two ounce range but much denser than tennis balls so they fly better.

You can also go on Amazon and find rubber baseballs as well as weighted rubber baseballs that can get quite heavy. Basically most weights a person might want to sling are there. The only thing I would suggest to a newer slinger is to design your sling to work with that size ammo.

For a long time I would never use something the size of a tennis or baseball
They seemed way too big and unwieldy. Turns out with a balearic sling they throw like a dream. I had always been using a smaller Apache sling for such ammo which gave me a poor opinion of it. While my Apaches were excellent for stones they did not give me a balanced view of what was possible with larger diameter ammo. Its all about tuning your gear to attain the best results with what you are using.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by quentonium on Apr 18th, 2021 at 3:03am

quentonium wrote on Apr 16th, 2021 at 6:12am:
Made these tonight after seeing a video on how to convert tennis balls into juggling balls.

One is filled with adzuki beans (left over from the beginnings of the pandemic) and one with rice. The rice ball seems a tad bit heavier/denser (but not much) and is technically cheaper to make. Might experiment with sand in the future. Will have a go to see how long they hold up going full speed at a target.

http://imgur.com/a/aU2Zup9


Got to feel them out today and observed significant improvements to accuracy, speed and distance with both rice and beans, though I still prefer the rice.

Haven't been able to test impact resistance, but did about 10-15 full power bounces off the ground with no deformation or damage. I suspect that the greatest threat to these will be abrasion, which should be easily fixable with another layer of tape or simply rewrapping all together.

One awesome thing about this design is that you can modify colors or patterns by simply changing the tape color. I just ordered some brighter colors to help make the balls easier to see, both for impact and overshot balls.

I'll definitely need to reweigh them because I may have underestimated. I use around a quarter cup of rice per ball, which is approximately 50g. Factoring in the average weight of a tennis ball and tape, end product should be in the 100-110g mark, or 3.5-3.8oz.

They are substantially safer than rocks, but they do pack a wallop; even with lighter throws. Based on the results of a few unintentional hits to some 1-3 gallon flower pots in my yard, I suspect they can easily knock someone out, or maybe break a nose and certain bones depending on how fast the projectile is traveling (Force = Mass x Acceleration). But aside from that, the deformative nature of the ball (especially with beans) makes these relatively safe for my use in more public places.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Morphy on Apr 18th, 2021 at 3:18am

quentonium wrote on Apr 18th, 2021 at 3:03am:

quentonium wrote on Apr 16th, 2021 at 6:12am:
Made these tonight after seeing a video on how to convert tennis balls into juggling balls.

One is filled with adzuki beans (left over from the beginnings of the pandemic) and one with rice. The rice ball seems a tad bit heavier/denser (but not much) and is technically cheaper to make. Might experiment with sand in the future. Will have a go to see how long they hold up going full speed at a target.

http://imgur.com/a/aU2Zup9


Got to feel them out today and observed significant improvements to accuracy, speed and distance with both rice and beans, though I still prefer the rice.

Haven't been able to test impact resistance, but did about 10-15 full power bounces off the ground with no deformation or damage. I suspect that the greatest threat to these will be abrasion, which should be easily fixable with another layer of tape or simply rewrapping all together.

One awesome thing about this design is that you can modify colors or patterns by simply changing the tape color. I just ordered some brighter colors to help make the balls easier to see, both for impact and overshot balls.

I'll definitely need to reweigh them because I may have underestimated. I use around a quarter cup of rice per ball, which is approximately 50g. Factoring in the average weight of a tennis ball and tape, end product should be in the 100-110g mark, or 3.5-3.8oz.

They are substantially safer than rocks, but they do pack a wallop; even with lighter throws. Based on the results of a few unintentional hits to some 1-3 gallon flower pots in my yard, I suspect they can easily knock someone out, or maybe break a nose and certain bones depending on how fast the projectile is traveling (Force = Mass x Acceleration). But aside from that, the deformative nature of the ball (especially with beans) makes these relatively safe for my use in more public places.


Thats cool man, feel like posting it to this thread as an official entry? Got to have at least pics of a useable design before it counts.† :) :)

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by quentonium on Apr 18th, 2021 at 5:00am

Morphy wrote on Apr 18th, 2021 at 3:18am:

quentonium wrote on Apr 18th, 2021 at 3:03am:

quentonium wrote on Apr 16th, 2021 at 6:12am:
Made these tonight after seeing a video on how to convert tennis balls into juggling balls.

One is filled with adzuki beans (left over from the beginnings of the pandemic) and one with rice. The rice ball seems a tad bit heavier/denser (but not much) and is technically cheaper to make. Might experiment with sand in the future. Will have a go to see how long they hold up going full speed at a target.

http://imgur.com/a/aU2Zup9


Got to feel them out today and observed significant improvements to accuracy, speed and distance with both rice and beans, though I still prefer the rice.

Haven't been able to test impact resistance, but did about 10-15 full power bounces off the ground with no deformation or damage. I suspect that the greatest threat to these will be abrasion, which should be easily fixable with another layer of tape or simply rewrapping all together.

One awesome thing about this design is that you can modify colors or patterns by simply changing the tape color. I just ordered some brighter colors to help make the balls easier to see, both for impact and overshot balls.

I'll definitely need to reweigh them because I may have underestimated. I use around a quarter cup of rice per ball, which is approximately 50g. Factoring in the average weight of a tennis ball and tape, end product should be in the 100-110g mark, or 3.5-3.8oz.

They are substantially safer than rocks, but they do pack a wallop; even with lighter throws. Based on the results of a few unintentional hits to some 1-3 gallon flower pots in my yard, I suspect they can easily knock someone out, or maybe break a nose and certain bones depending on how fast the projectile is traveling (Force = Mass x Acceleration). But aside from that, the deformative nature of the ball (especially with beans) makes these relatively safe for my use in more public places.


Thats cool man, feel like posting it to this thread as an official entry? Got to have at least pics of a useable design before it counts.† :) :)


I will† post a tutorial once my orange electrical tape arrives

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Morphy on Apr 18th, 2021 at 8:55am
Sounds good.

Note to all though and your post just reminded me Quent so dont feel singled out but full on tutorials dont necessarily have to be posted here. If you are really excited by all means post some stuff its not a problem. But also keep in mind we have to have whatever is posted on this thread be digestable by those just wanting to see submissions.

So again definitely not saying dont post tutorials but just have the length be balanced with the purpose of the thread.

Actually multiple progress pics is really beneficial is it gets others excited to try stuff. But anything extra that can be left out consider doing so for brevities sake. Hope that makes sense. Thanks again all. Great submissions so far. Im so impressed with what people have come up with. Mine seem trite in comparison...that is if I ever get around to figuring them out.  ;D

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by quentonium on Apr 24th, 2021 at 1:38am

quentonium wrote on Apr 14th, 2021 at 7:49am:
For those In America looking for a ready made circular target:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001BQZ7AU/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_glc_fabc_GZFGQ519JMY94XQ52RXB?psc=1

Picked up 4 of the 19" version, but only because I'm impatient and didn't want to wait until May for the 18", which I Suspect would be better for improving accuracy for Balearic style competition training (20" pan is about $20 bucks; no gracias)

Plan to glue at least 2 together to reinforce the thin 18ga thickness of the metal, which should give me some good use; at least while using tennis balls. I suspect once I step up to rocks these pans are going to get obliterated.

Was going to check local thrift shops and discount stores to look for old circular pans, but because it's Hawaii is almost impossible to find something this cheap in ideal dimensions. May the target gods be ever in my favor with this new project



Pizza pans arrived today and they are very stout; should hold up to standard and weighted tennis balls standalone, and handle rocks if they are doubled up (at least for a good while)

Just ordered 2 more; might order another two for a lifetime supply. Get em while they are still $6

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Kick on Apr 24th, 2021 at 7:34am
I think I can speak for us all when I saw we would love to see them get wrecked :D Do post damage shots. It will be interesting to see how they withstand a barrage.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 24th, 2021 at 9:16am
aluminium is tougher than you think.

the centre disc on my lightweith target is 3 or 4 mm aluminium. I do have a couple of steel ones I used for the original target frames i made in 2008.

I've uded clay on both and the aluminium one stands up with fewer dents than the steel ones.   

The pizza plates are a great idea - if you don't have a friendly aluminium engineering firm around :-)

The tennis balls are similiar to the ammo the Viking renactors make over here.

They take a sandwich bag with a handfull, or so, of dried peas/beans and wrap in coloured tape so that every viking slinger has their own colour and pattern ammo.

And they do sling them at each other.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 24th, 2021 at 9:38am

Quote:
Ammo that can be slung a known distance and then causes serious drag to drop it mid air parachute style. It will allow people to have actual expensive sets of premimum ammo without fear of losing them. Backstops will no longer be needed to be a serious target slinger. Target slinging will be possible anywhere within reason at any time. But so far no one has come up with the answer.

As it stands that is the one thing that prevents me from practicing all the time. This absolutely maddening pattern of making or buying perfect ammo and despite ridiculous lengths taken to find them all they eventually all disappear. What a PITA.


Hmm, I can probably make that.
never considered it before. But then I mainly miss targets in competition. Like most of us I rarely miss when there's no bugger shoutuing at yoiu are trying to brain you with sideways rocks.

But yeah i can think of several ways to do that. The hard(ish0 part would be to make them individually tuneable.
But i could sell different inserts.

Doifferent slings and throwing styles impart different spin rates - as does different power throws.
So you couldn't guarentee a distance per insert just something: long, medium, short, really short and 'don't drop before you throw'.

The only issue I can see would be the braking mechanism.
A small parachute is probably going to be the most practical and easiest to make.
In fact that eject machanism is probably going to be the single difficult part of the whole affair. And where do you buy cheap rolls of parachute silk ?

(5 minutes later)

My brain must actually be working today.
there are two abandoned pop up tents in the local area (one is where zud got the sticks for his captured pouch staff sling from).
Not silk - but just as practical and free and plenty of it.
Plus it should cut really easily on the laser cutter.
Now i just need a decent pattern for a small parfachute :-)

Right that's materials sourced lol Now for the hard part.
lol or maybe not :-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYm1_nedVu0

However I reckon you could also use the same basic mechanism (and yes i am being deliberately vague lol) to ignite a small smoke pellet. the kind of thing that plumbers and electricians use to trace old pipes should work quite well and are cheap and easy to buy.

bear in mind it would have to be based on the number of rotations
Well if you wanted to make a fairly cheap(ish) mechanical one.
If you want to put a mini gps chip in with an armature triggered brake - that's quite a bit more complicated and probably (definitely) beyond my limited electronics skills.

But a mechanical one - yeah i'm pretty sure I can make that :-)

It might take longer than this competition to make the parachute eject mechanism -but we'll see,
there might be something in the workshop i can modify. And if you'd ever seen my workshop, you'd realise that the answer is: yes there is definitely something in here - the hard part is going to be finding it :-)

It will need to be glande shaped, don't think ypou could do it with spherical ammo that tumbles more than spins. And you'll need to load and throw in a definite orientation.

But yep - distance braked ammo, I'm pretty sure I can produce a kit to do that.

As far as the jet glandes goes. I hadn't (well i almsot did) factored in shrinkage. Although it is why i made the fans squashable as i thought they would deform as the clay shrunk. Nah - you just get round fans and cracks.
So I'll make a couple and let them dry without fans and then make the fans to fit the final diameter of the shaft.

The ones i made are throwable - I just keep forgetting to take them with me. Plus not going anywhere I can throw them at the moment.

between phoebe recovering from a cruciate ligament operation and dream being distracted by all the bloody females in season in the area. I'm not currently doing my usual dog walks.

Right - distance locked ammo - I'm on it :-)

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Morphy on Apr 24th, 2021 at 2:42pm
Ive said this to others but if you could make a simple, reliable and effective autostop ammo it would be arguably the most important advancement to slinging since lead glandes.†

The more Ive used the sling for target slinging the more Ive found that one of the so called benefits : being able to use any ammo, is one of its greatest draw backs because people do just that. They use whatever they can find and 5-50 years later wonder why they never learned to aim it.†

The other option is a rather massive backstop so you can use really good ammo and that has its own difficulties. An autostop ammo would be an amazing advancement and if it was proven to work I would have multiple sets for hiking and slinging at parks, etc.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 25th, 2021 at 9:14am
I'm fairly sure the 'distance measuring' part is not going to be the problem.
I also think the reusable is: virtually indestructible part is also fairly doable.
It's the parachute mechanism. Which needs to be both easy to reload, lightweight and really strong. The energy stored in even a fairly light glande will put a lot of strain on the parachute cord anchoring points.

Then there's fitting the entire thing into a small, interchangeable unit so one missile can be used at different distances.

So far I think I've solved everything had the parachute.
Just got to make some prototypes and see what sorts of springs I have around.

We'll see :-)

Ah...
(  Lightbulb moment) I may have been overthinking it.

Now I think I need some really tiny ball bearings and no springs lol

I wil point out that if these work, they will not be cheap as there's a Lot of work involved In making something 'simple' to use.
But they will be weight adjustable and available in different sizes.
Hmm might also need a soldering iron......



Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Morphy on Apr 26th, 2021 at 9:17am
Good People of Slinging.Org!!!

Hear Ye, Hear Ye!

May 10th is the aforementioned final day for Ye Olde Abstract Ammo Design thread!! Be sure and get your ammo posted and attain Eternal, unending GLORY as a winner on the 2020-2021 Slinging.Org Winners thread for ALL ETERNITY or until Jan. 1, 2022. Whichever comes first!!!

Since after 2021 we can only be sure the zombie apocalypse will be coming and not when its coming, please keep in mind whatever you post may very well help the remnant of humanity survive through Earth's darkest days since an asteroid wiped out giant, flamboyant reptiles.

All who post viable designs will have their own indvidual thread started discussing the wonder that is them. Please post whatever you can think off. It doesnt have to be 3d printed super ammo but can be if you wish. NOOC yours will be required to be 4d printed ammo. Preferably from a printer scavanged from the Ottoman Empire.


Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 26th, 2021 at 10:32am
I was rather hoping noc would make robotic homing glandes. That after landing, sprouted little legs and ran back to the exact point they were slung from !

Remember the robotic 'cookies' in despicable me ?
like that :-)
But slingable !

Well I've got my indestructible screw together hollow shells done. The idea being that you can fill them with the substrate of your choice to add extra weight and lethality.
And the ball bearings arrived.
Um, yeah lol do you have any idea how small 2mm ball bearings are ?
Too damn small is the answer.
Gonne need 3 or 4 mm I reckon.

But the single hardest part is still the parachute. The kind of force that is going to hit that thing when it opens is pretty scary. I'll gather some tent material this evening and see how it stacks up.

(did you notice he said 'when it opens' I like that - that's unfounded confidence is that !)

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Morphy on Apr 26th, 2021 at 11:17am
I have asked him to make stuff like that!!! But he keeps coming back with the whole "Mortgage and kids and eating food" nonsense excuses.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Mersa on Apr 26th, 2021 at 6:27pm
Oh god Iím falling behind

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by joe_meadmaker on Apr 26th, 2021 at 8:52pm
Wow!  Didn't realize this was only a month.

I've gathered the things I need for mine.  I'll try to make some tonight and/or tomorrow.  A test video likely won't be in before the deadline, but I'll definitely have a picture up.  Unless what I'm planning doesn't work at all.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 27th, 2021 at 7:33am
parachutes.
parachutes are attached with cords. In this case to an object that is spinning rapidly.
Soooooo, you either need a bearing on the parachute anchoring point to counteract the spinning of the glande or - something that is not a parachute lol

The tent material is tough - but then I thought of the spinnig, rapidly turning the cords into a single braided line and closing the parachute up.

Th rest of it is going swimmingly lol 

Anyone got any ideas what you could use to stop a fast moving rapidly spinning object in mid air ?
That is not a parachute.
Oh and can fit into a cylindrical space approx 30mm long and 8mm diameter.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Sarosh on Apr 27th, 2021 at 8:12am

Curious Aardvark wrote on Apr 27th, 2021 at 7:33am:
parachutes.
parachutes are attached with cords. In this case to an object that is spinning rapidly.
Soooooo, you either need a bearing on the parachute anchoring point to counteract the spinning of the glande or - something that is not a parachute lol

The tent material is tough - but then I thought of the spinnig, rapidly turning the cords into a single braided line and closing the parachute up.

Th rest of it is going swimmingly lol

Anyone got any ideas what you could use to stop a fast moving rapidly spinning object in mid air ?
That is not a parachute.
Oh and can fit into a cylindrical space approx 30mm long and 8mm diameter.


the parachute can be attached to a fine braided fishing line that will absorb a lot of  the twist, the more it needs to absorb the longer it should be.

Another way would be for the projectile itself to open and close like a flower with a springloaded timer and get stopped like a shuttlecock.

both ideas are a pain, parachute untangling and repackaging and timer adjusting and losing expensive intricate ammo in bushes or breaking.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Mersa on Apr 27th, 2021 at 8:57am
Iím calling for an extension on this , this thread is to good to end soon !!!!!



Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 27th, 2021 at 9:45am
Ah ha !
thanks sarosh, that solves it :-)

I was going to attach all four anchor points to the glande. But having them go down to a single cord and anchor point instead, makes a lot more sense.

'Timed' deployment of the parachute should not be a problem.
'Should' being the operative word :whistle:

The whole flower/flaps opening out would probably be too fiddly.

Bear in mind that this is going to be slung at hard targets.
ie: the parachute should only deplot if you miss the target.

So the fewer the parts the better, and each part needs to be incredibly robust.
I'm basically sticking to a super tough rubber material for all parts.
It's as near indestructible as you can get, but will also let you print pretty fine detail and it's reasonably priced lol

At the moment, I'm down to 4 total components (the glande shell is 2) and one moving part, plus the parachute.

It all looks good - in theory lol
But as the saying goes: No battle plan survives contact with the enemy !

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Apr 27th, 2021 at 1:49pm
Alright, alright... your attempts to bait me have finally been noticed.

I present to you:

4D printed walking robot cookie super-stealth ammo!

Unfortunately the design was locked in a secret underground bunker and the Iím still trying to find the one I made. I really should have taken a picture before I threw it.  :-[

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Apr 27th, 2021 at 2:06pm

Mersa wrote on Apr 27th, 2021 at 8:57am:
Iím calling for an extension on this , this thread is to good to end soon !!!!!


Iíll second that. I donít have time for another project right now, but I might be able to participate if itís extended another 18 years so my kids are out of the house.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by joe_meadmaker on Apr 27th, 2021 at 6:59pm
It never occurred to me while making them, but as soon as I took one out of the mold I realized that I reinvented the ice arrows from Ocarina of Time.† ;D

Testing has been recorded.† I still have to cut the video together.† No spoilers here, but it will be coming in the next few days.








Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Mersa on Apr 27th, 2021 at 8:22pm
Oh yeah joe
You know how to get me excited!!!

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by IronGoober on Apr 27th, 2021 at 8:25pm
I don't like teasers man! I like instant gratification. Why do you torture me so?

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Morphy on Apr 27th, 2021 at 8:28pm
Nice Joe! Ok now I have to ask because this falls in line with an idea for ammo I had...

Does the feather twist correlate with the spin your sling produces???  :D

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Apr 27th, 2021 at 8:39pm
Nice Joe!  Canít wait to see the video!

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by joe_meadmaker on Apr 27th, 2021 at 9:39pm

Morphy wrote on Apr 27th, 2021 at 8:28pm:
Does the feather twist correlate with the spin your sling produces???

Unfortunately not.† I used pretty junky old arrows, so no helical fletching.† :(

But some good news.† I wanted to see the video too, so I've got it cut together already.† Doing a final review now and will get it uploaded.† So hang tight guys!† You should have it in an hour or so!

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by joe_meadmaker on Apr 27th, 2021 at 11:00pm
And here we go!

https://youtu.be/gYE7Rm_7kuM

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by IronGoober on Apr 27th, 2021 at 11:38pm
Nice Joe!  I think you could help the tangling issue just by adding a small loop on the retention cord that the end of the arrow fits into.  They sure flew straight after about 10 yards or so. I wonder how they'd do with some power behind them.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Kick on Apr 28th, 2021 at 3:51am
Those work amazingly well! I did not expect them to line up that quickly but they flew incredibly straight. An advantage with this is the enemy can#t sling them back at you :D

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Mersa on Apr 28th, 2021 at 4:10am
That was an awesome video, I think with a little fiddling you could really make them work. Imagine the satisfaction of consistency, always hitting point first , would be cool to watch  as you throw. And lighted nocks, night slinging.

I really dig it !!

Well done joe
Video was quality as always

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Morphy on Apr 28th, 2021 at 11:46am
I cant help but always be amazed see fletching orientate projectiles in slow motion. Maybe its because Im in Texas but it remind me of a cowboy riding bucking bull. Yee Haw!

Seriously though love it bro!

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by joe_meadmaker on Apr 28th, 2021 at 8:56pm
Thanks guys!† I was quite shocked by the video and how well those things worked.† I was expecting a random tumble after the release.† Although I guess there's no reason why they wouldn't fly similarly to a dart or the kestros that Sarosh has worked with.



IronGoober wrote on Apr 27th, 2021 at 11:38pm:
I think you could help the tangling issue just by adding a small loop on the retention cord that the end of the arrow fits into.

That could work.† Trying to keep the projectile stable in the pouch definitely restricted the speed that could be used.† I'll make another batch and give it a try.† I wish I could make them more quickly.† With the arrows sticking up, I can only get 6 in the freezer at a time.



Morphy wrote on Apr 28th, 2021 at 11:46am:
I cant help but always be amazed see fletching orientate projectiles in slow motion.

That makes two of us.† I wish I had left more ice arrows for the camera being set up next to the target.† There were only two left at that point.† But I think that last slow motion shot was by far the coolest one.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on May 2nd, 2021 at 11:27am
love the ice arrows. :thumb:

so the obvious question: which is the more accurate: Iceballs with OR without the arrow shaft ? 

And when does the green costume and pointy ears arrive ?
Just asking for my mate gannon...

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Morphy on May 2nd, 2021 at 12:37pm
Who is still planning on posting a submission? I have some ideas but they are barely even worthy of being called abstract. My feathered dirtclod I think is too ahead of its time so I might need to put it aside for a couple years.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by joe_meadmaker on May 2nd, 2021 at 10:09pm

Curious Aardvark wrote on May 2nd, 2021 at 11:27am:
so the obvious question: which is the more accurate: Iceballs with OR without the arrow shaft ?

Thanks CA!

Not sure on the accuracy question yet.† I definitely want to play around with these a little more.† Although one problem is that I only have 10 of those shafts.† I'm going to try to get a few more together, but the rest of my "junk" arrows are in pretty bad shape.† I'm probably going to need to put new fletchings on them to be usable.† With only 10, sling sessions are very short and I don't really have a feel for them as a projectile yet.

I think I need to switch the ice out for something reusable.† But then the ice explosion is lost.† :(

Oh, and green suit will be coming near the end of October.† ;)

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on May 4th, 2021 at 12:33pm
why not use squash balls filled with epoxy putty, shove the shaft in and you've got re-useable ice-free 'ice arrows'.
ready to throw in about 10 minutes.

Add a few detonator caps at the end with a small incendiary, before adding the epoxy and shaft and you've got some 'Fire Arrows' :-)

But squash balls and epoxy :thumb:†

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by NooneOfConsequence on May 8th, 2021 at 9:07am
Great video Joe.  Thatís pretty awesome how it stabilizes in flight halfway through the flight.  Have you tried sticking the arrow out sideways instead of in line with the cords?

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by joe_meadmaker on May 8th, 2021 at 9:17am
Thanks man!† No other tests as of yet.† Different positioning in the pouch is definitely something I want to try, along with the looped retention cord as IG mentioned to stabilize the arrow until release.

It's super fun when the projectiles are ice, but it's too time consuming to make them when I only get 10 throws and then the testing is over until another batch is made.† I think I'm going to order some of those rubber balls Morphy posted and was slinging in another thread.† I think they should be pretty cheap and an easy conversion to add the tail end of an arrow.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by StoneHuevos on May 29th, 2021 at 4:05pm
I present my bird seed-bird shot glande. Shelled corn held together with a paste made from cooked water and flour. Still a work in progress, some will survive a good throw and landing while others explode when leaving the pouch.
quicksquarenew_202152915443516.jpg (1710 KB | 17 )

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by SerKraus on May 29th, 2021 at 10:33pm
Lol you should also post your other creations!

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Morphy on May 30th, 2021 at 7:33am
This is really kind of a brilliant idea. This is the opposite of a hunting glande then?

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by StoneHuevos on May 30th, 2021 at 9:24am
My idea behind creating glandes is making something repeatable, cheap and biodegradable.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by StoneHuevos on May 30th, 2021 at 9:26am
Paper clay- pulped paper held together with a cooked flour\water paste
20210424_185202.jpg (1399 KB | 12 )

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by StoneHuevos on May 30th, 2021 at 9:31am
2nd paper clay attempt- added uncooked rice to add weight
20210503_083022.jpg (5744 KB | 7 )

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by StoneHuevos on May 30th, 2021 at 9:33am
The original birdseed glande. Wild bird seed mix held with cooked water\flour paste
20210505_082032.jpg (4938 KB | 13 )

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by SerKraus on May 30th, 2021 at 4:35pm
Ahhh that's better.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by StoneHuevos on Jun 26th, 2021 at 12:23am
Video of the corn flying!🌽
https://youtu.be/e8lwKxgcyls

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Kick on Jun 27th, 2021 at 9:01am
Awesome! I do like the idea of it being completely biodegradable and also good for the birds. Seem to fly pretty well considering the material.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by joe_meadmaker on Jun 27th, 2021 at 11:36am
LOL!  I love the name of that video.  :D

Good idea!  And I agree with Kick.  Those seemed to fly well.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by StoneHuevos on Jun 28th, 2021 at 12:14am
They aren't bad. Depending on your paste ratio, some hard throws disintegrate the glandes shortly after leaving the pouch, which to be honest leaves me with a feeling that my throws are too powerful. "EgoEggsô you ever throw a stone over those mountains?"

Haha but I've noticed the smaller\seeds grains produce a denser glande, but seem more prone to me naturally giving it all the mustard I can do which gives me the cool visual of the glande just slowly getting smaller.

Another fun bonus if you don't like geese you can whip these at them 😂 haha I kid

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Mersa on Jul 6th, 2021 at 8:19am
I made a prototype only to lose it in the field.
Typical long distance ammo always buries itself into another dimension.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Jul 13th, 2021 at 6:15pm
Love the biodegradable glandes :thumb:
Finally a use for unpuffed rice !

What are you using to mould those ?


Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by StoneHuevos on Jul 18th, 2021 at 1:12pm
All the corn are formed by hand. I tried using one of the CA original designs to mold, but the corn is too big, HOWEVER! Finer\smaller grains\finer bird seed  WILL work in CA moulds. Just have to be sure to properly dust\spray the inside of the mould before adding the mixture to compress.

Shameless plug: Corn Eggs are AMAZING! Make some and slang at a goose head.😆🤡🪨🥚🌽

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Morphy on Jul 18th, 2021 at 4:10pm
@All-

Obviously this has gone on longer than initially expected. Im kinda hoping we see a few more designs. Oh well, plenty of time left in 2021. Perhaps we should leave it going a bit longer? If anyone feels differently please let me know thanks.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by joe_meadmaker on Jul 18th, 2021 at 7:21pm
I think the question can be answered pretty easily.  Is anyone else still planning to create a submission for this challenge?  If you are, drop in a post on this topic.

I'm with you Morphy.  If there are still any designs coming, I'd love to see them.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Morphy on Jul 19th, 2021 at 12:04pm

joe_meadmaker wrote on Jul 18th, 2021 at 7:21pm:
I think the question can be answered pretty easily.† Is anyone else still planning to create a submission for this challenge?† If you are, drop in a post on this topic.

I'm with you Morphy.† If there are still any designs coming, I'd love to see them.


Ok great! Just wanted to make sure. This thread is so interesting to me and I know for a fact there are several prototypes that are quite fascinating if the respective people can get them up and running. In this case longer might be better and dont you say it you dirty , dirty man you!   8-)  ::)

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by joe_meadmaker on Jul 19th, 2021 at 1:04pm
That's what she...oh wait.....never mind.† †;)

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by J on Jul 19th, 2021 at 1:19pm
I am desperate for sling stones because I started† smashing up old bricks and tiles from the rubble pile to cast
They actually sling remarkably well.† The trick is a light sling with a flat pouch and 200+ gram stones to make up for the bad shape, because the stones themselves have tremendous friction
Real sling stones Im all out of. I still have the occasional clay but mostly I am slinging rubble and the hammer has become my best ammo making tool.† In about 10 minuts I have 2 buckets full of rubble ready to sling


Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Duckhands on Jul 27th, 2021 at 8:07pm
Hmmm. Plastic easter eggs with 3/8" steel balls and tanerite??? Legal, or probably not? Hahaha

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Duckhands on Jul 27th, 2021 at 8:09pm

J wrote on Jul 19th, 2021 at 1:19pm:
I am desperate for sling stones because I started† smashing up old bricks and tiles from the rubble pile to cast
They actually sling remarkably well.† The trick is a light sling with a flat pouch and 200+ gram stones to make up for the bad shape, because the stones themselves have tremendous friction
Real sling stones Im all out of. I still have the occasional clay but mostly I am slinging rubble and the hammer has become my best ammo making tool.† In about 10 minuts I have 2 buckets full of rubble ready to sling

I have stones all over, and would be willing to collect and send for shipping costs

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Jul 29th, 2021 at 7:01am
The fixed distance glande.
Well the concept is 100% sound.
Just really fiddly and the parachutes would be a real sod to make.
Plus getting really smooth bearings is crucial and I ran out of enthusiasm lol.
It's a short window, if I don't have a working prototype in 2-3 days I tend to lose focus.

If anyone's got access to an SlS or binderjet printer, then you'd have no problem making them.
Thinking nooc or judopete here.

The idea is pretty simple.
You have a hollow glande in two parts, with a shaft through the middle. So you can fill the shell with clay or something similar and then screw it together.
You then have inserts.
Each insert comprises of a tube with spiral threads.
You then have a cartridge with bearings that engage the threads. The back of the cartridge has a parachute, it also has slanted air intakes.

By adjusting how many turns there are in the spiral track you can control how long it takes for the cartridge to travel through the centre of the glande.
When the cartridge runs through and the end protudes from the the back air is forced through the intakes, which pushes the parachute out the back and stops the glande.

It sounds complicated, but it's only one moving part.
The parachute cartridges are all the same, you just change the threaded inserts for different distance glandes.

Obviously (lol) the track stops before the parachute cartridge falls out and the inserts lock in to main glande body.

It's a pretty simple concept, but it does rely on really good bearings and very smooth tracks.

The actual design process is not complicated. But for a smallish glande an fdm printer us going to struggle.
Plus to make it seriously tough and virtually unbreakable, it all needs to be made from polyurethane, and that doesn't print totally smooth as it's prone to stringing.
An SlS machine using nylon would make them just as tough and have no issues with the required precision.

I'm pretty sure if you can make them that they will work. The parachute is the only thing that might break and also the fiddliest to make

So anyway, that's that idea.

At the moment my vote is definitely for the edible/biodegradable glandes.
I love those :-)

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Mersa on Jul 30th, 2021 at 1:33am
Well CA Iím pleased to say that initial test seems pretty good on the jet glande. Not sure exactly if itís created thrust but definitely flys point first!!
Iíll continue testing
460DA457-4931-4D6A-8309-488205223AA3.jpeg (680 KB | 3 )

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Jul 30th, 2021 at 3:31am
So for the record I sent all the turbo glande kit to mersa as part of the world record delayed sith package :-)

Looks good !

My problem was that I just wasn't sure they were flying fan first or not lol

Keep playing mate, it's such a good idea it has to work :whistle:


Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Albion Slinger on Jul 31st, 2021 at 1:24pm
Clay diabolo "pellets"

Diabolo_clay_1.jpg (366 KB | 4 )
Diabolo_clay_2.JPG (345 KB | 3 )

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Kick on Aug 1st, 2021 at 4:33am
Oooo I really want to see how these do.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 1st, 2021 at 5:14pm
Giant airgun pellets !
I've used all of those :-)

Interesting to see how they fly

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Albion Slinger on Aug 2nd, 2021 at 10:30am
They fly very straight. The bottom cavity can also be painted inside so you that can see them at all times (This would be particularly beneficial for metal versions). Had the idea while making "Cortaillod" projectiles (of which there is some resemblance).

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Morphy on Aug 2nd, 2021 at 12:03pm
Nice Albion! Besides looking badass is there is a specific benefit or theory you are trying to prove with this design?

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 2nd, 2021 at 5:04pm
So not while shooting an airgun then ?

What sling do you throw them with ?

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 11th, 2021 at 6:23am
Do these count as abstract ammo ?

Given that they're more or less designed specifically for my disc slings, can you have an ammo/sling combo entry ?

1_claydiscs_001.jpg (152 KB | 8 )
3_claydiscs_001.jpg (113 KB | 8 )

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Morphy on Aug 11th, 2021 at 9:34am
Lol absolutely.  Someone needs to crack the whole disc sling idea once and for all and it seems you are on the way to doing that. How cool would it be to have disc ammo? Especially if it created lift. My goodness could you imagine how far they would fly.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Morphy on Aug 11th, 2021 at 10:55am
Maybe we can make a rule that if a certain design sling is needed to make the new ammo work it should be allowed. It only makes sense to me.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 17th, 2021 at 2:37pm
lol, created lift ?
You are just cruel !

So, hmm, vanes in the centre of the torus maybe ?

Should be simple enough to design the mould -  I wonder how well the clay would hold up ?

Okay challenge accepted :-)

BRB.....

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 17th, 2021 at 3:38pm
Soooo, if I've got this right - and due to the seat of your pants, line of sight, slapdash design practices I use, it's a big 'IF' :whistle:

This should produce a thick edged helicopter disc with lift produced with a clockwise/right-handed-slinger direction of rotation.

Or it won't lol

And, we're off !
see you in an hour and a half


helicoptermould.JPG (117 KB | 10 )

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 17th, 2021 at 4:34pm
And halfway through the print i realised the solid design flaw.

The central clumn was supposed to be clay to support the fins.
And it's totally the opposite...
Printer off.
back to openscad.

And here we go again !

(meanwhile on the other side of the desk - vetryans crystal edition 60x35 mould is halfway through it;s 8.5 hour build process)
helicoptermould_001.JPG (153 KB | 7 )
IMG_20210817_220915_566_copy_674x516.jpg (78 KB | 8 )

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 19th, 2021 at 8:02am
well knock me down and roll me in maple syrup !

I think it worked !

So far I've only used playdoh and the first succesful mould set (yeah, my mate had to point out what I'd done wrong lol) has produced a left hand/anticlockwise lift surface.
But, it did make the shape I wanted !

And if you can mould it in playdoh - really soft - then the clat ones should be fairly robust.

I went for only 2 lifting vanes out of a possible 4. Because at the end of the day, we don't want a missile that just goes straight up.

Hopefully† this should provide a nice balance between forward movement and powered lift.

But damn !
I genuinely had no clue if this would work or not, my cad is every bit as slap dash as I claim it is.
And designing something as a space for a negative mould, really puts your brain through the wringer.
lol

Oh yeah and I made a rough mould squasher.
Unfortunately it doesn't add enough squoze for my modelling clay, but works perfectly for play doh and - probably - softer clay. Well you can't get any stiffer clay that's workable than the stuff I have.

Come on, this is next level stuff here :-)
IMG_20210819_124059_141_copy_691x921.jpg (91 KB | 5 )
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IMG_20210819_125038_030_copy_921x691_copy_525x238.jpg (111 KB | 6 )

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 19th, 2021 at 11:07am
Here's a -really- rough mini video of the right handed mould being made.
The stringy bits between the pegs are down to this filament, which is pretty horrible to print with and partly down to my changing a setting I should have left alone.
But as it takes a couple minutes to clean up,bi couldn't be arsed to change it back  :-)
20210819_160121.gif (1273 KB | 8 )

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 19th, 2021 at 11:42am
And yes you correct in thinking: 'oh god he's only got another bloody program for mucking about with pictures!'

Yep gif maker :-)

So here's the whole (well I have pre dusted the mould with talc) helicopter ammo making process in a neat little 20 second montage.

With stiffer clay, you tend to get a lot less deformation when you prise the model from the mould.
20210819_165227__1_.gif (912 KB | 9 )

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by IronGoober on Aug 19th, 2021 at 1:11pm
Cool stuff, CA. I wanna see it in action!

Also, I want to see you make x-zylo ammo, I bet that would fly very far, and work from a normal sling.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 19th, 2021 at 2:50pm
what is x-zylo ?
Okay, flying ring - I used to make those from a sheet of paper.
There's defintiely at least one thread on them around the forum.
Given that they generally don't need spin... (can you hear the little hamster in his head ramping up the wheel speed ?)

Yeah i think I can do that fairly easily. But probably not from clay.
The cord runing through the guide channel would probably just tear the clay loose. But then it would only need to survive one throw i suppose.
Hell I think i can probably make one from paper and drinking straws lol
Clay would be too heavy.

Right then while I'm doing that, you lot can work out the conumdrum below :-)
(now do we still have drinking straws, hmmm)

And at thje moment my brain is - literally - spinning.

Have I got the spin direction for lift the wrong way round ?

should the slope be facing into the spin or sway from it.

Like most people ny mrain works best when I;m out with the dogs.
You've got more blood pumping round and you're in a higher oxygen environment.

So I was thinking about aerodynamics.

Now wings create lift because the air travelling over the wing moves faster than that going below, which reduces atmospheric pressure and sucks the wing upwards.

Soooo, with the pointy end of the wedge facing the direction of spin, surely that surface is longer than the shorter and flat underside.

However, given that the blunt face would be facing into the wind, surely that would slow the spin rate.
So I think I need the slope to be on the underside of the disc and facing the direction of travel.

or do i ???????

It's doing my head in lol
HELP !†

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 19th, 2021 at 4:14pm
Well that was fairly easy :-)

I threw it the length of my workshop with the 'sling' launcher.
I can probably throw it a lot better by hand lol

For any kind of distance you want a much smaller one with a weighted front.

So what you want is a sheet of lead foil.
Cut a strip as long as the paper you're folding to make the leading edge.
Fold it to get some extra density, and fold it inside the paper.

If you use thin card and use A6 size rectangle, you should end up with something possibly small enough to be thrown from a soft leather pouch.

With my bigger one† (made from A5 paper) I just glued a piece of plastic drinking straw alone the tail, where you put your finger for throwing.
The sling is just a length of 2mm masons line with a sliding finger loop.

If I knew what this thing was called - I've probably been making them for over 40 years - I could find a howto.
But I have absolutely no clue what they are called. Hell I don't even have a name for them.
Just 'round paper throwing things that aren't planes'

So there you are :-)

If you wanted a more zylo shaped one. You just make two the same size, and glue one inside the other so that you have 4 tail fins instead of just the 2.
This would also give you a much heavier front end as well.

With two fins, and throwing by hand - as shown in the gif - you lay your index finger along the tail, and depending how you throw, it will go straight, do a loop or just curve round and come back to you.

With 4 tail fin, it would probably fly a lot straighter.
Never tried it :-)

Hmm is at an aerofoil ?

Well yes it is !
https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/edu/teach/activity/ring-wing-glider/
If the best name NASA can come up with is: 'ring wing glider'.
I don't feel so bad about: 'flying ring thing that isn't a plane' :whistle:

So there ya go :thumb:
20210819_205145.gif (543 KB | 9 )
20210819_204946.gif (5995 KB | 9 )

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 19th, 2021 at 4:47pm
Bunch of videos on different types of circular aerofoils.
https://www.youtube.com/results?app=desktop&search_query=ring+wing+glider+paper+airplane+

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by vetryan15 on Aug 19th, 2021 at 4:53pm
Those mold look awesome.  Love it

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 20th, 2021 at 7:18am
Well there's a parcel heading your way, who knows what might fall into it :whistle:
First I have to figure out which way the bloody pointy bits need to point.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 20th, 2021 at 12:37pm
So I'm waiting for a large file to download on my crappy broadband.
Had a sheet of 360gm card to hand.
So I started folding

I will say that getting a really tight fold in such thick card does require quite strong fingers.

The smallest were made from a business card sized rectangle, the biggest from A6 (A5 folded in half.
The next one down from A6 folded in half and the smallest from that folded in half.

Obviously they are folded in half and cut into two pieces. Otherwise not even Magnus samuelsson would be able to fold it into an aerofoil.

The small ones might work in a sling.

I'll get back to the clay torusses tonight.
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Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 20th, 2021 at 12:52pm
It actually turns out they all fit in a standard cap Paul sling.
The really small ones are probably too small.
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Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 20th, 2021 at 3:29pm
So I took them for a walk.
No they don't sling well lol.
Just can't get a straight release.
Then dream turned round and spotted what I was doing.
And that was the end of the larger one.

So slings aren't much cop with these, but they launch great from a straight stick !

Unfortunately by the point I tried to video it, I only had one of the tiny ones left. The two previous throws vanished into bushes, and the one I tried to video also vanished lol.
And I really should have changed to a thinner stick :-)

So if you pretend you're using a naked staff sling, yes you can sling them :whistle:
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Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by IronGoober on Aug 20th, 2021 at 4:40pm
That was quick!

I am familiar with the shape, and have made many of the same kind. They are great!

I was thinking along the lines of something like your thick card ones (the latest). But maybe with a heavier ring (like 100g) and the tail being a 3d printed thin wall (or something like that).

But alas, maybe they are too wide to sling well. I would have thought that with the RPM that you can put on it out of a sling, it would lend well to slinging as long as you can get a correctly oriented release. Maybe that's a tall order with its form factor.

Thank you for the effort!

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by JudoP on Aug 21st, 2021 at 4:33am
Anyone ever tried embedding fins in a clay glande like this thing? Clean release could be an issue I guess, but even off throws would give you rifling.
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Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 21st, 2021 at 5:39am
@ig The thing with aerofoils is that they just don't need any spin.
Throwing them from a stick is probably as good as it gets.
A straight non-,spin release gets a really long throw.
Naked staff sling = a stick

@jp the tail and find on the NERF missile are there because you can't easily spin a glande sufficiently for stabilisation by hand.
The fins would actually interfere with the kind of spin a sling imparts, rather than help.
To throw the NERF best, hanging down point first and throwing with a staff sling, so it doesn't spin, would probably work best :-)
If you wanted fins specifically for spin, then they'd need to be angled. The straight fins just inhibit spin.
A finned glande is easy enough to make and as long as the diameter of the glande is greater then the total width of the fins, should throw easily enough. But can't see fins doing much to help a slung glande.

Now I've got an idea of size, I'll make weighted cylinder from the bright yellow tpu. On the grounds it might be findable, and also -hopefully Dream proof. Though he is prone to laying under my chair in the workshop, chewing up something he's just stolen :-) who knows if even polyurethane is tough enough.

But does anyone have an answer to my pointy bit orientation issue on the torussessess ?

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Kick on Aug 21st, 2021 at 8:49am
You've been a very busy bee C_A :D I love these designs. Really feels like there are boundaries being pushed.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 21st, 2021 at 6:06pm
I think the torussessess have real potential, once I've got the central fins right.
Day off today. Low carb bread making and the world's best bouillabaisse. One of my signature dishes.
To put this into perspective, a normal bloomer loaf would contain around 300gms of carbs. This one has 50 :-)
Mind you the 300gm of fibreflour cost around £3

But it'll last me a week :-)

So back in the workshop tomorrow :-)
Might go vice shopping as well.
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Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 8:38am
Currently got a chap talking to me about maybe getting a rather nice looking resin printer for review.
Now, over the last couple years I've had 4 different companies offering to send me a machine - so far not a single one has ever turned up.
I am apparently an industry influencer (so I've been told)† - but not yet on youtube, just on the worlds largest 3d printer forum.
I've had a few designing jobs out of it and been sent some interesting filaments to play with - but so far no actual printers have arrived.

Now personally I reckon the forum probably gives me more clout than the average 3d printing youtuber - and there are thousands of them, and only one of me on the forum.
But the marketing wallahs do tend to have tunnel vision.
So I will start putting some more videos up, just because it can't hurt :-)

I'm not actually getting that excited, 'cos like I said, this is far from the first offer I've had.

However this chap is a little different, he's freelance and not directly working for a specific company, like most of them tend to.
And seems to have worked out that my recommendation will probably sell more machines than a low end youtuber.
So who knows.

And why, you ask am I telling you this ?

The detail level and model architecture you can achieve with a resin printer is just phenomenal.
It's proper movie spy gadget detail level.
And with the price of resin dropping rapidly and differnt types becoming more easily available, resin machines are becoming a good viable alternative for tougher prints.† Previously the resins were known for their inherent brittleness.
The resin is still nasty smelly sticky stuff and you have to wash the prints in isopropyl alcohol and then blast it with uv light to finish the curing. But detail level, oh yeah !

So things like the delayed action glandes, would be easily doable.
They hinge on a really precise and smooth spiral track and tiny housings for ball bearings, that I just can't do properly with an fdm system.

But with one of the new generation resin machines - it would be a piece of cake.†https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDTnmKMrfZI
This would probably be the machine.

Anyway we'll see what occurs.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 22nd, 2021 at 12:33pm
Any way...

So I'm back on the cad.

and I 'think' this will give lift for a right hand thrower.
Given how easy it is to orient missiles in the disc slings, having it one way only - should not be an issue (we'll see lol)

I can't see how you could make an anyway up disc for lift. I think it has to be a strictly 'this way up' operation.
If you believe otherwise - please tell me.

So this is what I'm going to make a mould for next, oh yeah I've also made the torussessessss 50mmx12 as opposed to 40x10:

And if anyone's wondering about the video process.
Xbox game bar to capture initial video.
Transfer to phone to crop and turn into a gif.i have tried a couple Windows based gif makers. But not a patch on gifmaker on the phone. Plus the phone renders video much much faster than my computer.

I'm not entirely sure about the central hub extending below the leading edge of the blades.
But trying to keep the weight as symmetrical and centred as possible.
Right now for the mould.
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Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 23rd, 2021 at 2:39pm
well it turns out you can't make a two part mould with lift. It creates an overhang that will simply trap the clay.

So we shift to plan b.

A central 3d printed insert to a clay torus.

Sort of like a horizontal turbo glande - well, exactly like it, if you want to be pedantic :-)

Time to get my thinking hat on again.

Tell you what, if nothuing else, this thread has given my brain a serious workout :-)
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Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 24th, 2021 at 12:23pm
So current plan.
Just made a no fin torus.
I'll measure how much it shrinks by and then make the blade inserts so that they don't break the clay, but are locked in by the clay shrinking as it dries out.
So in a couple of days I'll have a much better idea on how big to make the fins/blades.
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Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by joe_meadmaker on Aug 24th, 2021 at 3:08pm

JudoP wrote on Aug 21st, 2021 at 4:33am:
Anyone ever tried embedding fins in a clay glande like this thing? Clean release could be an issue I guess, but even off throws would give you rifling.

I think an important part would be to make sure the fins are angled.† In arrows this is called helical fletching.† Based on my limited experience with the ice arrows I made, there wouldn't be any rifling without it.† If the glande itself was grooved, it might.† But I think straight fins would actually fight against the spin.† I could be wrong though.† A strong initial rifle spin created by the sling might still keep going.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 24th, 2021 at 4:11pm
you're right, the fins would need to be angled.
It's pretty simple to do.
Just make some fins attached to a shaft and shove the shaft up the wet clay glandes bracket :whistle:
If you make sure a little of the fins is also in the clay, it should hold it pretty tight when it dries.
Or the glande will split - one or the other :-)

Right so whle the torus dries, I've gone back to the aerofoils.

I've got a basic hollow cylinder with thick base tapering to a thin top.

I've also added angled slits that should orient on the angle of rotation.
I've then tilted those so that the slits actively funnel air into the interior of the cylinder.

I have no idea if this is a good idea or not. But it makes the 'tail' lighter and we've already established I like pushing air through holes - so why not :-)
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angled_slit_2.png (18 KB | 8 )

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 24th, 2021 at 4:16pm
And i can't think of any other way to make these that wouldn't take a long time.

size wise - the diameter is 30mm and the height is 50mm. This should be a nice fit in my sling pouch.
And with it being rigid, hopefully it will throw a lot better than the card ones did.

Plus if i can get it back from dream fairly quickly, it should be reuseable !

Won't be testing these till thursday as I want to do it on the rec field. Nice big flat short grass football pitch :-)
And wednesday is the village boys football team training night.

So I'll make a few of these and a few without slits and see if any of them fly at all and if the slits make any difference or not.

Might even get some video, we'll see.

Plus if i have seevral of each, dream can't steal them all !
The little bugger will try :-)

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 24th, 2021 at 5:15pm
So first rigid 'aerofoil plus' sling missile.
Yeah it's rough, this thing was printed at saffy's top speed.
100% functional, just not pretty :-)

Weighs about 17gm and feels pretty substantial.
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Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by vetryan15 on Aug 24th, 2021 at 7:36pm
Ca,

If u need a tester of your printed molds. I would be more then happy to test em out, and make videos again....

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 25th, 2021 at 3:40pm
Yep - I'll try and get the parcels out next week. With various goodies :-)

Meanwhile I've got a bunch of aerofoils to test.
Going to see if I've got a more appropriate sling to throw them with.
Either a split pouch or a flat leather pouch would probably be more suited.

These two look pretty good. Though the Tibetan type one is pretty long, the aerofoils might not be heavy enough. We'll see :-)
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20210825_205619.gif (331 KB | 7 )

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by CrazyBrave333 on Aug 26th, 2021 at 1:45am
These look mad!

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 26th, 2021 at 6:58am
Be interesting to see if
1) they will sling.
2) throwing with a stick is better than sling
3) if the slits make any difference

So anyway, back to the torus that's been drying out.

for some reason minimal shrinkage.
The outer diamater is still 12mm.
The widest part of the interior gap has gone from 21mm to just 20mm.
While the gap from the edge of the interior to the central hub has not changed at all.
started out at 11mm and after 2 days is still 11mm.

So i can just make a blade insert the same size as the hole in the wet clay. And it should just shrink to grip, but nowhere near enough to break the torus.
Must be something specific to the shape - glandes tend to shrin a lot more.



Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by IronGoober on Aug 26th, 2021 at 11:43am
Eagerly awaiting results....

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 27th, 2021 at 8:18am
I'll take the torussessessess (Tori ?) For a walk tonight, didn't have time yesterday.

Haven't decided on a fan design yet, I'll have a play this afternoon.

The Torissies (lol) don't throw well by hand - just too heavy.

Might make a simple flat pouch sling for them as well.
We'll see :-)

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Slyngorm on Aug 27th, 2021 at 12:47pm
Remember the thread talking about the magnus effect?

The idea is a bullet both biconical and with groves like a water mill wheel.
When appropriately thrown the wind drag in the groves pointed in the direction of the throw will cause the bullet to turn (besides the spin it gains from the throw itself).

This would ideally make the bullet fly longer or upwards with the extra lift.
You can already do this with a regular bullet but with this it should gain extra spin.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 27th, 2021 at 4:04pm
Magnus effect - well yes I did notice that :-)

Now I did take a couple videos. But honestly, with the phone in one hand and the sling in the other, it does not make for great video.

So before I take pics of the wreckage and try and salvage a half reasonable bit of footage I'll go through my observations.

Throwing with a stick, whittled smooth.
No difference between slotted and solid.
I tended to throw high, with more practice I'd get it straighter.
Didn't travel terribly straight.

But with a sling, very noticeable difference.

They both went further, probably 30-40 metres.
Fig 8 with a good vertical release, went well as did a† multi rotation windup and sidearm throw.

Unfortunately with the phone in one hand fig 8 is tricky.

And then there was the other problem :whistle:
Phoebe and dream :-)

Yeah, while neither brought them back to me, they did enjoy chasing them and giving them a good crunch.
So I reckon a got an average of 1.5 throws per aerofoil.

And the results are:

The solid ones flew quite well, not terribly straight - I was either throwing into the wind or across the wind - but they flew correctly oriented, just not terribly straight.

The grooved/slotted ones flew a lot straighter and tended to climb quite steeply as well.
When I got one the wrong way round, they just dived into the ground. So the grooves were definitely both giving lift and also keeping them straighter.

So if I cut down on the number of slots, they should go further and straighter.

I'd have liked to do a lot more throws, but after about 15 minutes all I had left was bits :-)

So I really need to go down with the tripod and also make the aerofoils out of the flexible tpu, which should be a lot more dog proof :-)

But as far as this short test goes.
Yeah, they throw quite well. Once I get the number of grooves right so they go more forward than up, should get some reasonable distance.
Tempted to up the diameter to 35 or 40, which will not only give more overall weight but more wing area.

I've got the length about right. I tried a couple that had been bitten in† half, and they were rubbish.

So maybe go up to 40mm diameter and 60 or 70mm length, and make them from 'chewable' polyurethane. And reduce number of slots.

But yep, fun new ammo type.

When I've got the design nailed down, I'll attach the stls.

Without such enthusiastic helpng friends, the crunchy pla ones would probably last for years :-)

Oh yeah I ended up just using the shepherd's sling in the end. Just worked really well. I think it's one of Pete's, but wouldn't swear to it.

Attached pic of bits I could find, looks like I missed a couple.
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Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 27th, 2021 at 6:59pm
https://youtu.be/J7jI6eyEa_M

Honestly, that's as good as it got.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Morphy on Aug 29th, 2021 at 7:15am
I love the idea of threading them on a straight stick.† :D Thats some good thinking outside the box there. I actually am wondering if theres a way to make that a viable hard hitting weapon because it seems like it would be so easy to aim.

I couldnt see much from the flight but thats to be expected since you are holding the phone. I saw the two most important parts though: phoebe and dream. What kind of silly pups play fetch with a mans experimental aerofoil ammo?

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 29th, 2021 at 12:00pm
Fetch ?
Nobody was playing fetch.
'Crunch' was the game de jour :-)
Chase it, catch it, crunch it, spit it out and wait for the next one lol
They were having a grand old time :-)

Dream will occasionally bring a tennis ball back, well he always brings it back, he just doesn;t always give it to me.
Phoebe will usually bring a tennis ball about 75% of the way back, and then expect you to go get it.

The stick was also doubly useful for picking the aerofoils up as well.

Yeah the video really needs to be on a tripod.
And better edited :whistle:

I'm curently printing a 35mmx60mm long with a reduced number of slits.
In dayglo yellow flexible polyurethane.
Dog proof ?
maybe lol

The smaller one had 16 slots, this one has 12 - so with the increased surface area and weight ( around 24gms) of the aerofoil, it should cut the lift down to something that will hopefully fly straighter.
The thick leading edge will keep it pretty rigid, so should throw okay.

Throwing from a stick is good fun - but as you don't have the stabilising spin, they kind of zig zag when hit by any wind.

But it's good fun.

The card ones also throw well with a stick :-)† †

video clip of the new one being made.
That's slowed down a bit, flexible filaments print slow, but not quite that slow :-)
But she does run almost totally silent. The only things that make any noise are the 5 cooling fans.
(1 for the controller board, one for the power supply and three on the printhead itself)

They'll take approx 4x longer to print than the crunchy ones did.
About 2 hours each aerofoil.
So once I've done a test print, I'll leave it running† overnight with another 4 or 5.
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Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 29th, 2021 at 12:29pm
copy and paste this script into openscad ( www.openscad.org )

Quote:
// Curious Aardvarks aerofoil sling missiles

$fn=75;

// Change numbers below to change aerofoil

cd=35; // cylinder INTERNAL diameter - full diameter is this plus 2x the base wall thickness

ch=60; // cylinder height
bt=4; // base wall thickness
ns=4; // number of slits per layer
nls=3; // number of layers of slits
at=30; // angle of tilt
st=3; // slit thickness
sh=10; // slit height
sha=8; // slit height adjuster - adjusts gap between rows of slits
shm=100; //slit height mover - higher numbers = smaller adjustment - moves all slits up or down

// the bit that actually generates the aerofoil.

module cylindrical(){

// create the basic cylinder
difference(){
cylinder(d=cd+2*bt,h=ch);
translate([0,0,-0.5])cylinder(d1=cd,d2=cd+2*bt-2,h=ch+1);

// add slits
translate([0,0,ch/shm])for (z = [1:nls]){
for (i = [1:ns])rotate([0,0,45*z]) rotate([-20,0,((360/ns)*i)])translate([cd/2,0,(sh+sha)*z]) rotate([-at,0,0]) cube([cd,st,sh],true);
} // END HEIGHT REPITITION
} // end diff
} // end mod

cylindrical();


Once you've adjusted the parameters - press 'f5' for a quick preview and 'f6' for a full render (it can take a little time depending on your single core processor speed).

If you come up with a design/ size you want me to try, no need to upload the exported stl file, just screenshot your settings and I'll make it and see how it flies. Video not guarenteed :whistle:

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by vetryan15 on Aug 30th, 2021 at 6:11am
Another project u can do, just what u need, is make your own 3d printed tripod,

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 30th, 2021 at 8:25am
Well I do have a superb tripod.
I'm actually currently printing out a phone holder for it, as the old one got broke.
The new one should be a bit more durable.

The tripod has a square insert that locks in. The screwy bit broke a while back. So I reverse engineered the insert block. I can now just add extra parts to the base and print the new holder as a single piece.
So I've got holders for the phones and the iPad a mate gave me.

I have looked at the iPad video setup and while it will record in slowish motion. iMovie sucks for editing and the iPad will only do mov video format and getting the video file onto my phone for proper editing is a right pita.
Apple just don't like anyone being able to use proper computers :-(

I might still give it a go as it should be easier to see things with the slomo.
I just hate the whole apple environment.
I'll go charge it up.

The tripod goes from about 2 feet to about 7.
Everything twiddles rotates and locks.
Even has a spirit level built in
And I've just remembered that the bag I use for carrying the bolt cutters around :whistle: ( don't ask) was originally the tripod carry bag ! :-)
Now I just have to find it !

So anyway I printed the yellow aerofoil and the subjected it to the 'chewed by dog' simulator.
It failed.
You can see in the video clip the end section failed.
Reprinted at higher temp and lower speed,
And it was a lot better, but still failed the test.

The thing about 3d printing is it's as much an art as a science. And different colour materials all have different characteristics.
Yellow tpu is the stiffest tpu, and in this case was too stiff.

So I'm reprinting with blue tpu. Which is the softest colour and should hopefully bond better and survive the simulator intact.
:-)

The base is stiff enough the while I am hitting it a lot harder than it looks, my fingers are quite safe.

20210830_131135.gif (8519 KB | 13 )

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 30th, 2021 at 9:42am
Well I haven't found the tripod bag, but I did find another bag of slings :-)

This one holds the new aerofoils perfectly, plus its heavy enough to feel right when swinging with such lightweight objects.

Again, I'm sorry I have no idea who made it.

Tomas maybe ?

Someone with smaller fingers than me anyway. It's a tight finger loop.
I've got a few all leather slings, always liked this one. Should work well for this.
Plus you can see by the length of the pouch that it would take a larger aerofoil just as easily.
I've had a couple practice throws in the workshop (another advantage of flexible ammo lol) and both holds the aerofoils really secure during even a slow windup and releases perfectly as well.

Not sure I'll get it all together tonight, but hopefully this week.

Although I'll probably take the new aerofoils for a test throw and live 'crunch' test :whistle:

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Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 30th, 2021 at 2:27pm
Now that was fun !
The leather sling sort of worked, but realistically needs much heavier ammo.

So I went back to the shepherd's sling.

After much experimenting, fig 8 turned out to be the most successful style.

Oddly the blue aerofoil, which survived the mallet test unscathed, took the most damage from the mutts.
The yellow one, I'd swiftly patched up with my heat tool, actually survived a lot better.
The original wounds were reopened, but no new ones and the original weren't enlarged.

So I'll go back to the yellow and thicken the tail end a little to make it stronger.
I reckon it just doesn't taste very good :-)

Still getting plenty of lift, and if you can angle them towards the ground they swoop upwards !
Hard to get just right, but pretty radical when you give it laldy with a sling and the ammo actively dodges the ground !

Just like Terry Pratchett's advice on how to fly: 'just throw yourself at the ground and miss'

That's just what it feels like :-)

So I think I'll reduce the slits to 8, all round the middle and make the tail 1.5mm thick rather than 1mm.

Also increased the bottom/front thickness to 5mm

So I'll run a half dozen new yellow ones overnight.

Pics of vertical phone holder attached, I've also got a horizontal one as the one thing the tripod doesn't do is go 90 degrees.
Hmm guess I could make a hinged holder.
(Sigh) I'll put it on 'the list' :whistle:

Pics also attached of the Flex-Aerofoils after 20 minutes of extreme canine mastication.

Right I'm off to try out my new 3d scanning app !
I'm not entirely sure linking my Google account to my PayPal account was such a great idea. This paying by fingerprint is just too damn easy :whistle:
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Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 31st, 2021 at 11:15am
Right, I reckon these are probably going to be the final item.
Don't realistically want them any larger.
The 30 odd grams weight feels nice and is heavy enough to work in a variety of slings.

The 8 slots should be enough to give sufficient lift for fun, but hopefully also get a bit more distance.

The fact that these 6 took 16 hours to make, means I'm not going to be running these off everyday.
So assuming they're dog proof, they should be infinitely reusable.
They're certainly not going to be damaged any other way, polyurethane is double tough !

@iron goober. This was your idea, have you got access to a tpu capable 3d printer ? If not, bung me your address and I'll ship a couple across :-)

Attached the last two designs to the post.
35x60x9 = 4mm thick walls at the base and 1mm at the top. Overall height of 60mm and diameter of 43mm (35mm is the internal diameter) Oh and it has 12 slots, including the weird shaped ones at the top - no I don't know why i thought it was 9 either :whistle:

the 35x60x8 - has 5mm base walls and 1.5mm top walls, so it's 45mm total diameter, 60mm tall and has 8 slots arranged around the middle.
I currently have no clue how they will fly :-)

I included the 35x60x9 - simply because if the new ones don't dodge the ground, I know they will :-)
And that's a fun game :thumb:

The next question is: can i be arsed to go back and make some fins for the clay toruseses ?
Dunno, I'll think about it.

I'm also going to make a couple these out of pet-g - it's nowhere near as tough as tpu, but it is a lot chewier than pla.
And prints faster - so we'll field test those as well.

The other thing it might be worth trying out is nylon.
Now nylon is a right bastard to print, and i don't have any that works anyway. But it is tough !
I did look at trying some carbon fibre infused nylon as it's supposed to print a lot better - but damn that stuff is pricey ! So I'll see if I can score any at the tct show at the end of september.
Sometimes stuff throws itself into my backpack as I walk past stalls, I blame poltergeists- so we'll see :whistle:†

If I make it to ibiza, I'll bring some with me.
Watching someone trying to throw these from a stiff split pouch sling, should be interesting.
Plus it's something else apart from stones, that you can use a sling for.
https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=35x60x8aerofoil.stl (307 KB | 11 )
https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=35x60x9aerofoil.stl (428 KB | 11 )
20210831_160816.gif (650 KB | 10 )

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 31st, 2021 at 12:16pm
And just because, here's Alexa, printing a petg aerofoil.
20210831_171605.gif (6261 KB | 12 )

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Sep 2nd, 2021 at 3:22pm
Took the new ones for a walk today.
Meh, they go straight. But nothing great.

Also they fly best with a moderate speed throw.
Best throw was probably about 40 metres.

They were chew proof.
But no fun.

So I think Iíll go back to the 12 slot design, keep the slightly thicker tail and drop the base back to 4mm.

That should make them relatively chew proof, but still keep the fun factor.

Without the active lift, theyíre pretty boring :-(

With it theyíre a fun new type of ammo. :thumb:

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Sep 28th, 2021 at 12:00pm
Slightly different approach to the disc sling.
This is the yoyo disc sling.

A standard yoyo would not be as good because the centre spindle in a yoyo is very small.
That causes balance issues.
So I made the centre spindle a lot thicker, which as can be seen, gives s lot of stability when the yoyo is on the cord.

It also means the yoyo can be thrown faster, as it needs fewer rotations to travel the length of the cord.

The yoyo weighs about 30gms.

I melted the end of the cord, then crushed it smooth with pliers. Otherwise the little melted blob would probably catch in the groove.

I like the way you can store the sling in the ammo :-)

I've just replaced a sick motherboard on the printer and was looking for a test file.
No idea when I designed this, but it was labelled sling yoyo, so seemed appropriate :-)

Not sure if I've printed one before or not :noidea:

20210928_165631.gif (7298 KB | 14 )

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by IronGoober on Sep 28th, 2021 at 2:15pm

Curious Aardvark wrote on Aug 31st, 2021 at 11:15am:
@iron goober. This was your idea, have you got access to a tpu capable 3d printer ? If not, bung me your address and I'll ship a couple across


Not sure how I missed this.† Yes, I do have a printer, but haven't tried TPU† yet. I've only done PLA and PET+. But my nozzle should go to 260C. I think I might just try them in PLA first. 

Are you going to put up a video of you slinging these?

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by joe_meadmaker on Sep 29th, 2021 at 9:39am

Curious Aardvark wrote on Sep 28th, 2021 at 12:00pm:
This is the yoyo disc sling.

I love that idea!

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by vetryan15 on Sep 29th, 2021 at 12:31pm
Slinging Yoyoz thats awesome

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Oct 1st, 2021 at 7:47am

IronGoober wrote on Sep 28th, 2021 at 2:15pm:

Curious Aardvark wrote on Aug 31st, 2021 at 11:15am:
@iron goober. This was your idea, have you got access to a tpu capable 3d printer ? If not, bung me your address and I'll ship a couple across


Not sure how I missed this.† Yes, I do have a printer, but haven't tried TPU† yet. I've only done PLA and PET+. But my nozzle should go to 260C. I think I might just try them in PLA first.†

Are you going to put up a video of you slinging these?

Possibly, but hoping Joe and Ryan will put up videos, as they've both got a couple aerofoils now :-)

Most tpu runs best at 235-245
And yeah they work great in pla - just not dog proof.
I'll pop the latest stl up when I'm back in the workshop.

Haven't tried the yoyo sling yet, at the moment it's a one throw deal, so I'll make a couple dog proof ones before taking it for a proper walk :-)

The flattened ends on the yoyo are just to make it easier to print. Before I make the tpu ones, I'll turn it into a rounded haxagon, which should print even cleaner ('clean' in additive manufacturing means, no attached bits of plastic or issues where you try to print at too sharp an underhand or overhang.) The base of the existing yoyo has a few minor issues at the base so changing the curve to a fixed angle line tends to get cleaner results.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Oct 1st, 2021 at 8:14am
Yoyo sling would be easy to make with a set of drill based hole saws.

Cut 2 40mm discs and one 20 and just glue together. The central drill hole should make it easy to get the balance right.
5 minutes with sand paper.

You could also cut a couple 30mm X 3mm and glue to the outside to give a bit more central weight.

You want the centre groove the same thickness as your cord. So 3mm plywood for that and cut the outer discs from a 1x4 bit of Pine shelving.
A bit if Dowling the same size as the central drill to hold it all together and aligned while the glue dried and you could probably knock these out in a few minutes.

This is all you need and some sand paper
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rolson-58129-Holesaw-Set-Pieces/dp/B003UDFHL6/ref=mp_s_a_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=hole+saw+set&qid=1633090509&sr=8-4

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Archaic Arms on Oct 1st, 2021 at 8:18am
A thread on Yoyo slings a while ago:
https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1592934960/0

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Oct 1st, 2021 at 8:30am
That'll be it, cheers :thumb:

Looks like I designed the thing, then got sidetracked and probably never made one.

Might have to see about making one of those mushroom shape acentric ones as well.

Reminds me of a space ship or space station from a film or tv series.
Just can't remember which one :-)

Make it in 2 parts and try and keep the weights even.

How do you work out the volume of an ellipsoid ,?

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Oct 1st, 2021 at 8:54am
You use this:
https://www.omnicalculator.com/math/ellipsoid-volume

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Oct 16th, 2021 at 11:00pm
Ok Iíve been pretty quiet on this thread, but I have a really simple abstract ammo idea for yíallÖ

Wet ammo.† The spray off the ammo letís you see the spin orientation and you can compare that with wrist orientation. That relationship will be different for every sling/ammo/style combination, but you can easily visualize the relationship between wrist roll and ammo rifling with a video camera. Hereís an example.
06643D86-62AB-42DB-B579-A1E4F1A48741.jpeg (92 KB | 5 )
3CEBF0B9-B17D-4EE9-9DB2-11AAEA308C77.png (47 KB | 6 )

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Oct 19th, 2021 at 8:44am
well anyone who's ever slung a tennis ball for a dog - will be familiar with wet ammo :-)

If they're not retrieving from water, even on a hot dry day, the slobber builds up.

It's why I make waterproof ball slings that you can load without touching the ball :-)

Also keep the slobbery thing in a bag between sessions.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by IronGoober on Oct 19th, 2021 at 1:40pm

Curious Aardvark wrote on Oct 19th, 2021 at 8:44am:
Also keep the slobbery thing in a bag between sessions.

I sure hope there is airflow in that bag... eeeeewww.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Oct 19th, 2021 at 2:26pm
lol oddly they never go mouldy.
dog saliva has probably got some kind of anti fungal agent in it.  :-)

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Morphy on Oct 21st, 2021 at 12:42pm
Even mold wont brave the slobber balls.  ::)

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by IronGoober on Oct 21st, 2021 at 2:57pm
Now when I see NOOC's slinging pictures, I kinda gag a little.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Oct 21st, 2021 at 10:20pm

IronGoober wrote on Oct 21st, 2021 at 2:57pm:
Now when I see NOOC's slinging pictures, I kinda gag a little.


I get that a lot even when Iím not slinging.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Oct 22nd, 2021 at 10:46am
It's definitely a nice effect - as long as it's water :-)

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Kordwar on Dec 8th, 2021 at 12:21pm
Not sure if this thread is dead/over but it feels like the right place to put it:

We have a big box of large miscellaneous nuts in the shop at work, 3/4-10 mainly, I brought one to a parcel scale and they're about 50 grams which seems like a good weight for glandes. I imported a nut from McMaster into fusion and made a socketed football shape so it would rest dead center. In theory I would be able to make a mold with silicone and cast them in a tough resin.




Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Mersa on Dec 8th, 2021 at 5:16pm
I like that a lot
Need a tester?
Send them down here

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by joe_meadmaker on Dec 8th, 2021 at 5:42pm
Agreed.  That is extremely cool!

I supposed this challenge should also be cut off soon.  Everyone get them in before the end of the year!

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Kordwar on Dec 8th, 2021 at 8:14pm

Mersa wrote on Dec 8th, 2021 at 5:16pm:
I like that a lot
Need a tester?
Send them down here

How hard is it to find american sizes where you are? I'll have to make a metric nut version for ease of finding materials.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Dec 9th, 2021 at 6:57am
Just measure the nut, much easier :-)
Use a 6 sided cylinder and measure across the points for the cylinder diameter.

How did you glue it together ?
Otherwise not sure it'll last past the first throw.

If you embed and glue the nut fully in one side and add some threads to the other side and use something like polyurethane, that would be pretty durable.
Or thread both sides for a centrally mounted nut.

Oh and I'll add the sling-,in-the-dark ammo here as well :-)
20211204_143733.gif (246 KB | 0 )
20211204_142238__1__001.gif (255 KB | 0 )

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Kordwar on Dec 9th, 2021 at 10:09am
I have it as a friction fit currently, probably going to use some CA glue for test throws.

My main worry with using threads is ease of casting, I was initially leaning towards threads on one side and threading into the nut and threads on the other side. I ended up using the socket because it was easy to print and easy to reproduce.

Ideally I could cast one side with a plug and then embed the nut when when casting the other side, or just mass produce the halves and glue a nut in.

One thing I do love is that if you lightly hold it at both tips between your thumb and forefinger and blast compressed air across it it spins with zero wobble. I'm excited to try it out

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Dec 9th, 2021 at 10:57am

Quote:
One thing I do love is that if you lightly hold it at both tips between your thumb and forefinger and blast compressed air across it it spins with zero wobble.

lol guess that's one way to test.

have you thought to make the cut horizontally ?

That would give yoiu a much larger area to glue, better end impact resistance and no break point where the nut is.

It might also make it easier to mould, although as I've never poured resin - not sure how you go about it.
nutglande1.png (6 KB | 1 )
nutglande2.png (4 KB | 1 )
nutglande3.png (6 KB | 1 )
nutglande4.png (20 KB | 1 )

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Kordwar on Dec 9th, 2021 at 11:29am
It's definitely worth considering! I can split it either way, which is nice. Is a blunter tip preferred to a sharp point? I wasn't sure if it makes a difference so I just went sharp.

I wouldn't mind trying to dapple it like a golfball or experiment with grooves to try and induce a spin

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Dec 9th, 2021 at 12:00pm
It'll spin coming out of the sling, thats pretty much the whole point of the glande shape.

Pointy versus blunt.
Blunt points don't break as easily, not sure if it makes any difference aero dynamically.
Try both :-)

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Kordwar on Dec 9th, 2021 at 12:05pm

Curious Aardvark wrote on Dec 9th, 2021 at 12:00pm:
It'll spin coming out of the sling, thats pretty much the whole point of the glande shape.

Makes sense, for whatever reason I thought only a couple release methods made it spin out of the pouch.

I do like the idea of the dimples, sorta like those golf cross balls

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Dec 9th, 2021 at 1:31pm
You should be able to use a texture to add the dimples in fusion 360.
Or a stamp, if it has stamps.

It's a bit of a sod to do in openscad and that's pretty much all I use.

Title: Re: Abstract Ammo Design 2021!
Post by Kordwar on Dec 9th, 2021 at 5:54pm
Glande related update! Painted the grey prototype bright yellow at work and stopped at the park on the way home. Took a few test throws to get used to the weight and when to release, but it flies very straight and predictably and took eight hard hits into frozen ground before the CA glue failed and popped apart (survived though!). I have some bright orange filament coming this weekend look forward to trying more.

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