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Message started by Slyngorm on Mar 25th, 2021 at 4:16pm

Title: Pellet bow
Post by Slyngorm on Mar 25th, 2021 at 4:16pm
I recently realized how perfect a weapon the slingshot is.
It utilizes eyesight aiming unlike a sling and is small enough to carry in a bag. It uses pebbles as ammunition but also arrows.
But it has an enormous flaw: rubber

Vulcanized rubber is extremely difficult to make.
In the wild you will make a gun from scratch sooner than you will make a slingshot. And for that reason slingshots aren't primitive weapons.

Luckily an alternative exists.






The pellet bow
This is the only traditional alternative to the slingshot that I have come across (I don't count the stone bow). It is basically a bow with a pouch on the bowstring that holds a pebble. It is used by twisting the handle so the projectile flies past the bow frame.




Construction
Bowstring
The bowstring must have a pouch somewhere near the middle. The less easily the string rotates around itself the more accurate the bow will be. It can be constructed in several ways.

[list bull-blackball]
  • Split string
    The bowstring consists of a circular string with a pouch suspended between each side. The string is separated by two small wooden pieces between the strings.


    The wooden pieces must be tightly stuck in place. An easy way to do this is to simply jam a toothpick through the rope under each wooden piece. 
    It is important that the two sides of the rope is of even length otherwise the bow will tend to shot to one side.




    [list bull-blackball]
  • Single string
    A pouch on a single string. The string is often very thick. This is to prevent the pouch from spinning around itself.




    [list bull-blackball]
  • Something in between





    The Bow
    The bow frame is just a regular bow.
    When using certain techniques the bow must be modified a little. Further explanation below.
    The pouch is either placed a little bit higher than where you grip the bow or have the pouch on the middle of the bow while you hold slightly below it.

    In some versions the bow is curved or shaped asymmetrically for easier departure of the pellet.


    Some really advanced pellet bows consist of two bows joined together or split in the one end.




    This thread is a nice read and details someone making and configuring a pellet bow
    http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php?topic=50771.0n



    Usage
    Warning: pellet bows can misfire and shoot in all directions. Starting off using light ammunition and eye protection is advisable.

    There are at least two ways of using it.

    This one I most often see described  and used.
    Flinch technique
         1. Hold bow frame straight
         2. Place pellet in the pouch, gripping top to bottom
         3. Aim above the pouch
         4. Draw pouch back
         5. Shortly before/after you release the pouch swiftly move/twist the bow frame towards the side of your arm holding the bow
    The last step is akin to slinging in that you must intuitively feel how to flinch the bow. It is however miles easier to learn than using a sling.
    I learned it by watching this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpVO8iaIY4w



    This one was inspired by an instruction I found here
    http://www.atarn.org/letters/letter_summaries.htm#pellet
    Twist technique
         1. Hold the bow frame at an angle
         2. Place pellet in the pouch, gripping top to bottom
         3. Aim above the pouch
         4. Draw the pouch straight backwards, with the pouch perpendicular to the target
         5. Let go
    This technique relies solely on eyesight aiming.

    It doesn't make a difference at what angle you hold the bow in terms of power and accuracy though small angles are easier to hold. If your grip is not strong enough the bow will consistently shot to the right of your target (if you hold the bow with your left hand).
    When drawing, make sure that you pull straight backwards. Avoid this by aiming at the target from before you draw and until you let go.

    [list bull-blackball]
  • Extra construction for twist technique
    It is difficult to grip a regular bow handle at an angle. Solve this by tying a piece of wood to the bow, which must have a flat side, making a handle.  The pouch can be placed in the dead centre of the string if you hold your fingers and thumb on the same side of the handle.
    The more your bow curves when strung the less angle you have to hold it at for the pellet to be able to shot past the bow.
     
    You can also use the flinch technique with a bow designed for the twist technique.

    I read somewhere that a bow to be used with this technique can with benefit be constructed asymmetrically so the ends stick out to one side. Though this is not necessary.



    My bows
    I have used these bows with the twist technique and for regular archery. Each end of the split string is collected in a knot below the limb. They both work fine though aren't powerful enough to fire anything but pebbles a reasonable distance.









    Conclusion
    No matter what technique you use the pellet bow may be a little bit trickier to use than a slingshot but honestly I haven't used one very much.
    It is of course, still miles easier to learn than a sling. After using either technique for about 3-4 days I became infinitely more accurate at pellet bowing than I currently am at slinging.

    Now, MAYBE I have simply grown on this idea so much and practiced with the pellet bow so much that I have simply deluded myself into thinking I am solely using eyesight aiming using the twist technique. But I really do believe that is NOT the case.
    And if so, there you have it: a primitive weapon that can launch blunt objects utilizing NOTHING but eyesight aiming. A true primitive slingshot.
    However, even if it is true there is still a lot to be learned about the pellet bow.

    Now I wonder how big projectiles can be used with this. Obviously a more powerful bow can shoot heavier objects. Considering the issue of pellet bows being larger than slingshots I wonder how you can make the smallest bow that still is as powerful as a slingshot.



    Altogether, a completely awesome weapon that has definitely become my new favourite.


  • Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by Slyngorm on Mar 25th, 2021 at 4:29pm
    History
    When researching it I found VERY little information and many sources confuse the pellet bow and stone bow.
    Yet, both in Europe, the Middle East, South America (especially Brazil), East Asia, India and maybe even North America and Africa the pellet bow saw use.

    Youtube is probably the best place for documentation and features quite the number of videos.

    The version with a split string is solely used in Brazil while both the split string and single string is used in East Asia.
    In the present day it seems the most widely used in Thailand. There are quite a few videos of news broadcasts and game shows from there.


    Sources depicting and mentioning pellet bows
    Europe:
    German manuscript from 15th century
    https://uppsalalibraryculturalheritage.wordpress.com/2013/08/09/515/



    Italian pantings from 15th century (and related discussion)
    http://www.artinsociety.com/carpacciorsquos-double-enigma-hunting-on-the-lagoon-and-the-two-venetian-ladies.html






    Thailand:
    Game show
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkvZENMXbOY&t
    Thai news reportage
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiyhuGdCVTw&list=PLRVUTcvx7LpGXkhbLiLFcd6PpA_gGX-hu&index=6&t=1279s
    Bronze age grave containing a pellet bow
    https://www.world-archaeology.com/features/thailands-bronze-age-superburials/





    China:
    Double stringed pellet bow from China
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBD1eAUR5eg&t=3s
    Single stringed pellet bow from China
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z4JhEq2zzs
    Shaolin
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHQlmM3ZF24
    General info
    Team of pellet archers
    https://vk.com/video-19790784_160664703
    http://margo.student.utwente.nl/sagi/artikel/hinge/hinge.html
    Chinese illustration





    Brazil:
    Bodoque instructions (if anyone speaks portugese)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvQ6JmMv9Qo&list=PLRVUTcvx7LpGXkhbLiLFcd6PpA_gGX-hu&index=8
    Farmer pellet bowing
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gl6LDwVjn4&feature=emb_title
    Farmers pellet bowing
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IauSNXTJIA




    Vietnam:
    Pellet bow in Vietnam
    http://www.binhdinh-salongcuong.org/GB_DISCUSSION_%20Medieval%20Weapons_Eighteen%20Sections.html





    Other:
    Kuki
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax985H0BrjA

    Persian pellet archer and related information
    http://warfare.ga/Persia/Nashmi_the_Archer.htm





    Other links:
    General threads (featuring our very own David Morningstar)
    https://slingshotforum.com/topic/20797-meet-the-pellet-bow-the-true-ancestor-of-the-slingshot/
    https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/paleoplanet69529/pellet-bows-anyone-t18598.html

    Slinging.org thread
    https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1100284318/0#0

    Paper, mentions the pellet bow and a few sources
    http://uir.unisa.ac.za/bitstream/handle/10500/21120/thesis_randalliv_kc.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

    Pellet bows with handles
    https://anthromuseum.missouri.edu/exhibit/pellet-bows

    Modern compound bows firing steel balls
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExmtUSJ4vmE
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrDn7QeDxHM&list=PLtBAMXHhkDEBCBatqc-lp2luHkfhpQ

    Facebook group
    https://www.facebook.com/Pellet-bow-Stone-bow-Archery-1643777829183950


    Words for searching in other languages:
    Bodoque (Portuguese, means something like "crossbow" similarly to the English pellet-/stonebow situation)
    คันกระสุน  (Thai, "bullet rod")
    彈丸弓 (mandarin, "projectile bow", the same word for slingshot in chinese)
    Interestingly, every single one of these terms will also return results for something that isn't a pellet bow, like crossbows, slingshots and such. I guess the stone bow/pellet bow situation is present in all languages.




    Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by Mersa on Mar 25th, 2021 at 4:35pm
    Thanks for reminding me that I still haven’t tryed building one of these

    Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by Slyngorm on Mar 25th, 2021 at 4:36pm
    Historic use of twist technique
    As mentioned, most resources describing the pellet bow describes the flinch technique. But researching has given me the impression that both the flinch and twist technique is used in pellet bowing cultures. The flinch technique is the most widespread, being used in every culture that uses the pellet bow. The twist technique is much less so being used only in South East Asia (and perhaps Africa), alongside the flinch technique.
    I will bring up some pictures and videos to argue in favour of this position.

    Every video I have linked so far show people that use the flinch technique using bows that makes an angled grip difficult.
    I have, however, seen pictures of bows with handles that would be usable for the twist technique.

    Like this one, from Thailand.
    https://web.prm.ox.ac.uk/weapons/index.php/tour-by-region/oceania/asia/arms-and-armour-asia-87/index.html

    The description says the handle is a guard to protect the hand. I am unable to see how this would work. On the other hand, such a handle would make it very easy to hold using the twist technique. There is a little mark on the handles neck that looks very ergonomic for placing one's thumb when twisting the bow.



    This link shows a collection of pellet bows most of which either have handles or are of a split design (very cool btw)
    https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/paleoplanet69529/interesting-double-pellet-bow-t51406.html

    One of them is a double bow, and another seems to be a bow split halfway through. The surrounding bows with handles looks like those from Thailand (see videos below).

    These split designs would allow for a pellet to fly straight ahead without hitting the bow. But why would such a design be necessary if you already just move the bow out of the way using the flinch technique? Such a design would only make sense if the technique you use already function by not having the bow frame in the line of fire like a pellet bow when using the twist technique.
    Also, second guy in the comments cites a source saying that south-east Asian and African pellet bows were made from curved sticks to use the twist technique.



    Boy using pellet bow with big handle
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Idl1NDAIozQ



    Here you see him holding the bow at an angle.


    From the second half of the video. Notice the handle's birdhead's position relative to the bow and relative to the target. The bow must be held at an angle.







    This video shows a demonstration of a pellet bow, from Thailand.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbiA8yLAhAg&list=PLRVUTcvx7LpGXkhbLiLFcd6PpA_gGX-hu&index=9
    The camerawork is all over the place so it is a bit difficult to see but it does sometimes look like they use the bow by twisting it.

    Here is the bow when in profile.


    This guy seems unprofessional and mostly goofing around but he almost certainly uses the twist technique.


    Then there is the old man who seems serious and routined. When he uses the bow and we see it from the side it seems (to me) as if he twists it though it is really difficult to see.




    Farmer using a pellet bow (less sure about this one)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19Br0BaD9yo


    Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by Slyngorm on Mar 25th, 2021 at 4:46pm
    Upload of all pictures in order of appearance so they don't get lost one day.
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    Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by Slyngorm on Mar 25th, 2021 at 4:50pm
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    Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by Slyngorm on Mar 25th, 2021 at 4:52pm
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    Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by Slyngorm on Mar 25th, 2021 at 4:53pm
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    Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by walter on Mar 26th, 2021 at 1:59pm
    @ Slyngorm

    Great post! One bow; two strings. Love it :D

    Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by Morphy on Mar 26th, 2021 at 3:17pm
    Annddd...this is an all star thread just like that. Putting this in the Hall of Fame List Slyngorm. Well done sir. Very nice.

    Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by Oxnate on Mar 26th, 2021 at 4:32pm
    How do you avoid hitting your own hands?

    Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by Slyngorm on Mar 27th, 2021 at 7:33am
    Apparently compound bows firing ball bearings is a thing. Kudos to @ Mersa.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExmtUSJ4vmE
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrDn7QeDxHM&list=PLtBAMXHhkDEBCBatqc-lp2luHkfhpQsjn

    Facebook group for pellet archery. Kudos to David Morningstar.
    https://www.facebook.com/Pellet-bow-Stone-bow-Archery-1643777829183950



    Morphy wrote on Mar 26th, 2021 at 3:17pm:
    Annddd...this is an all star thread just like that. Putting this in the Hall of Fame List Slyngorm. Well done sir. Very nice.
    Thanks Morphy! I have been researching, making and practising pellet bows, and writing on this thread since December. 



    Oxnate wrote on Mar 26th, 2021 at 4:32pm:
    How do you avoid hitting your own hands?
    If you use the flinch technique: place the pouch above where on the pellet bow you place your hand. Just enough for the bottom of the pouch not to be aligned with your hand.
    If you use the twist technique: place pouch in the middle of the string and grab the handle like this.

    It is almost impossible to hit your hand if you do either but I recommend starting off by using cork plug pieces as ammo. You can definitely hurt your hand if you do it wrong.
    holding_pellet_bow.jpg (76 KB | 4 )

    Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by SerKraus on Mar 27th, 2021 at 11:14am
    That's wild! I have never conceived of a pellet bow. However, I have heard of a pellet crossbow. https://youtu.be/iLiCIm8pyyc

    Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by Oxnate on Mar 27th, 2021 at 3:19pm

    SerKraus wrote on Mar 27th, 2021 at 11:14am:
    That's wild! I have never conceived of a pellet bow. However, I have heard of a pellet crossbow. https://youtu.be/iLiCIm8pyyc


    I forgot Tod did that.  I was expecting Jorge Sprave.  "Let me show you its features!"

    Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by SerKraus on Mar 28th, 2021 at 3:56pm
    I admire Tod. He makes great videos. However, the best part is the fact that he respects slinging and treats it seriously. Others like Scholagladitoria don’t. https://youtu.be/RBAqhbAVsXw   ; :-/

    Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by Morphy on Mar 28th, 2021 at 9:23pm
    This is on my list of things to make. Ive wanted one for a long time. Always worried I would break my hand though lol. Ive seen some people that are extremely good with them.

    Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by Mersa on Mar 29th, 2021 at 3:17am
    Yeah he’s obviously not a slinger or seen anyone sling. Need to chuck on some Armor and see what 200grams @52m/ps feels like. Pretty sure he’s mind would change

    Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by SerKraus on Mar 29th, 2021 at 9:49am
    Yeah it's ridiculous. Slings struggle with even light armor? Imagine being so off the mark.  :-?

    Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by Morphy on Mar 29th, 2021 at 10:19am
    That guy in the video knows precisely poopy about slings. You can tell a lot of these people are under the impression people were slinging pebbles against armored opponents. Typical youtube expert. See those a lot.

    Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by Kick on Mar 29th, 2021 at 10:39am
    That video is super old now though. I would love for him to talk about it again and in more detail.

    Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by joe_meadmaker on Mar 29th, 2021 at 9:15pm
    Matt Easton is actually an extremely knowledgable guy.  Although I completely agree that slings aren't really part of his expertise.  That said, if the only information one is theorizing with is that the use of slings went down as the quality of armour went up, I find it hard to argue with his conclusion.  It's experience with the weapon which shows us that armour can hardly be the entire story.

    Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by Slyngorm on Apr 8th, 2021 at 11:35am
    Hey here are some updates.
    I made a new bow and this one is really powerful. Unlike the previous bows this one could very well be used for bird hunting and something like that.

    When trying an alternative string design I realized how important string stability (i.e. the less easily the pouch spins around itself) is so here are some thoughts on that. All this discussion was made in relation to the twist technique.


    String stability
    Basically, the more stable pouch the more accurate the pellet bow is.
    Some sketches of possible string designs.



    My two first bows had design #1. Starting out this time, the new bow had design #4. This was VERY unstable, it constantly fired in all directions and was the reason I added the warning the usage section. #3 was also bad, but less so, and #2 was better. My take is that long, or even short, stretches of thin string is VERY susceptible to twisting around itself and must be avoided.

    Now all these 4 designs have the string being unified in a pair of knots. I made this because I figured that it would evenly distribute the pull from the pouch onto the bow limb and that it would make twisting the pouch more efficient. Getting rid of this all together, like in #6 and #7, would make the pouch even more stable but I don't know the overall effect of these designs.

    Design #5 would basically be a hybrid between these two designs.
    #8 is a thick, single string.

    I don't know what effect placement of the wooden dividers have on accuracy.
    Currently, I favour design #2 because I use the alignment of the dividers to aim making it beneficial to place them close to the pouch. #1 works but it is more difficult to aim with. Design #3-4 is bad.



    SerKraus wrote on Mar 27th, 2021 at 11:14am:
    That's wild! I have never conceived of a pellet bow. However, I have heard of a pellet crossbow. https://youtu.be/iLiCIm8pyyc

    Since making this thread I HAVE actually become interested in making a stonebow if simple and easy crossbows exist.




    The picture shows the new bow when it still had string design #3. I also had to secure the dividers with additional string.

    20447034-883A-4635-B2F4-70E03C6C0B5B.jpeg (115 KB | 8 )
    258DFC65-F7D2-4E1A-B9EA-3E904E8E06F6.jpeg (63 KB | 8 )

    Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by Morphy on Apr 8th, 2021 at 1:00pm
    The greatest degree of loss of efficiency as a string movement is concerned is in the center since that travels the furthest. It would seem productive then to make the smallest pouch that would still hold ammunition. What about a small square shape just big enough to hold a marble? Like square shaped but only cordage, maybe some stiffeners? As our resident expert what say you Slyngorm?

    Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by Slyngorm on Apr 9th, 2021 at 9:03am
    I definitely haven't gotten to do any modifications on the pouch but I do have some ideas on the subject.

    This guy says that smaller pouches are more accurate.
    http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,50771.0.html
    On the same link are some designs similar to what you envisioned, with very scant pouches.



    When I first started making these I weaved a pouch with string like a simple sling. That worked ok. 
    I do think that how firmly the pellet sits in the pouch without rolling around is a big factor in accuracy. My solution would be to make a pouch that has a slight cone shape but this is all just speculation right now.

    Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by Morphy on Apr 9th, 2021 at 11:16am
    Interesting. I really need to make one...theae things are so cool.

    Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by Slyngorm on Apr 10th, 2021 at 5:56pm

    Morphy wrote on Apr 9th, 2021 at 11:16am:
    Interesting. I really need to make one...theae things are so cool.

    Oh yeah, you are right. You do need to make one. And you don't know that you need to do it until you have already done it.

    Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by Morphy on Apr 10th, 2021 at 7:17pm

    Slyngorm wrote on Apr 10th, 2021 at 5:56pm:

    Morphy wrote on Apr 9th, 2021 at 11:16am:
    Interesting. I really need to make one...theae things are so cool.

    Oh yeah, you are right. You do need to make one. And you don't know that you need to do it until you have already done it.


    Maybe Im ahead of the curve then because ive wanted one for years but the idea of explaining to the doctors in the ER how I broke my hand has always put me off the idea.

    The whole concept I love. But what really pushed me over the edge is seeing how accurate people can be with them. There is no doubt in my mind that one could hunt with them. Much easier than a sling for that matter.

    Also the amount of power in a 60-70 pound bow would be pretty crazy. Theres just the little thing of being able to draw such a weight while holding the pellet. But with the right design I bet its possible. And if it is Slyngorm phew...what an awesomely powerful sling shot that would be.

    Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by Slyngorm on Apr 11th, 2021 at 5:42am

    Morphy wrote on Apr 10th, 2021 at 7:17pm:
    one could hunt with them.

    Yeah, one definitely can. I do wonder how big and heavy of a pellet one can use with a sufficiently large bow and in turn how large the animals you can hunt are. Birds are viable target for sure.
    The upper limit of pellet weight must be similar to that of the heaviest arrow in use methinks.


    Morphy wrote on Apr 10th, 2021 at 7:17pm:
    Much easier than a sling for that matter.

    That is the BEST part of the pellet bow. It feels so nice to pick up a pebble and hit right dead on target on your first try. You still need practice but it is miles upon miles easier than slinging. Sorry sling, I have a new rock hurling favourite.



    Morphy wrote on Apr 10th, 2021 at 7:17pm:
    Theres just the little thing of being able to draw such a weight while holding the pellet.

    I haven't had many issues with that. The biggest challenge to me is holding the bow still. But that is just training of arm muscles and having the right posture. I just realized recently that you have have to stand with your side to the target like when doing regular archery. Makes it so much easier.



    Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by Albion Slinger on Apr 11th, 2021 at 12:25pm
    How about having a small loop attached to the back of the pouch? If done properly, pulling it should cause the pouch to pinch on to the pellet while providing a bow-like grip (allowing heavier draw weights perhaps?). Although, this weapon isn't designed to be powerful by any means.

    Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by Slyngorm on Apr 17th, 2021 at 3:31pm
    Ok, three new things.

    Firstly, I made a pouch that was half the height of the previous and it certainly improves accuracy.
    Secondly, I drew a couple of lines on the top wooden divider so you can more easily aim. When the lines align with the target you are pointing dead at it. This could further be improved on by attaching two small sticks on the back and front of the wooden divider so that when they align you are aiming at the target. Almost like a gun scope.
    Thirdly, by mistake I made and used a bowstring with sides of uneven length, the right side being longer. While I originally advised against this I found it to improve accuracy if anything. I did find my previous symmetrical bow string to have a tendency to fire to the left on my new bow, so maybe this evened it out?

    Honestly, point #1 and #3 happened sorta in the midst of each other so I'm not sure how much each has affected the other.
    Anyways, there still are tons of aspects to the pellet bow that needs further testing.




    Archaic Arms wrote on Apr 11th, 2021 at 12:25pm:
    this weapon isn't designed to be powerful by any means.

    I disagree.
    I have so far used little finger nail sized clay pellets and fired them a reasonable distance. Now I have also used thumb nail sized clay pellets and found that they fly longer if anything. And that is with my novice home made bow, made with a bad bow wood that has been fire hardened way to much. Finally, I probably haven't made a max draw yet (cause I don't know how long that is). A professional bow definitely could fire a golf ball sized rock several tens of meters at a pretty low angle.

    A problem with bigger ammo though is that it misfires much more easily. I think this is because it more easily rolls around in the pouch.
    Your pouch design sounds very good and I might look into it someday. I think a simpler solution is to make a pouch that is wider than the width of the string split so it acts like a slingshot pouch.

    Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by Albion Slinger on Apr 20th, 2021 at 12:47pm

    Slyngorm wrote on Apr 17th, 2021 at 3:31pm:
    I disagree.
    I have so far used little finger nail sized clay pellets and fired them a reasonable distance. Now I have also used thumb nail sized clay pellets and found that they fly longer if anything. And that is with my novice home made bow, made with a bad bow wood that has been fire hardened way to much. Finally, I probably haven't made a max draw yet (cause I don't know how long that is). A professional bow definitely could fire a golf ball sized rock several tens of meters at a pretty low angle.

    A problem with bigger ammo though is that it misfires much more easily. I think this is because it more easily rolls around in the pouch.
    Your pouch design sounds very good and I might look into it someday. I think a simpler solution is to make a pouch that is wider than the width of the string split so it acts like a slingshot pouch.

    I'd imagine one would generally be throwing projectiles that are lighter than traditional arrows? Coupled with the grip that puts a cap on power, you are also trading the penetration capabilities of a bow for energy in blunt force trauma, which isn't much. All that aside, I can see this being a very effective small game weapon, as it's accurate and the pellets could be very cheap.   

    Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by Morphy on Apr 20th, 2021 at 2:53pm
    Typical arrow weight is around 500 grains for a mid range 50# bow. Well...around there anyways depending on the set up.

    500 grains is slighlty more than 1 oz. The real question is how fast a stone would be going once at range. Say 10-25 meters. A stone wouldnt lose any energy to oscillation. But also would have more drag than an arrow. How much more would be interesting to know since an arrow does have fletching.

    So how fast would it go? With a really well made bow and if you could optimize the string to be as light as possible a 14 gram stone which is still a decent weight for slingshot hunting would be the equivalent of ~5grains per pound. Which should have quite a fast velocity. Well over 200fps but probably quite a good bit faster.

    You would have to worry about potential breakage of the bow shooting such light ammo but some can tolerate it.

    Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by walter on Apr 20th, 2021 at 9:48pm
    I always shot 44 cal round balls with my sling shots. Not pebbles. Wouldn't 44 plus round balls work better than pebbles with these bows?

    Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by Morphy on Apr 20th, 2021 at 10:02pm
    A .66 cal lead ball would get you to right at an ounce and have similar drag if not less than an arrow. Bet that would be an excellent small game weapon. Really, really excellent if you could learn to aim well.

    The only difficulty would be designing the pull mechanism that would allow pulling a full strength bow while holding the pouch securely. Im sure theres a way. With a #55 bow you are talking a serious small game weapon.

    Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by Morphy on Apr 20th, 2021 at 10:12pm
    If we could get past the pulling issue a pellet bow could put out numbers equal with quite a strong slingshot. Mostly because no one I know of is shooting a slingshot in the #55 range with a pinch grip. So while it might shoot a little slower with lighter ammo, with 1 oz ammo I bet it could keep up. If not outshoot a pinch grip sling shot. This is all really interesting.

    Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by Kick on Apr 21st, 2021 at 7:21am
    Well there are slingshot trigger mechanisms that would work with a pellet bow I think. They hold the pouch together and so stop the ammo moving before release.

    Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by Slyngorm on Apr 21st, 2021 at 12:30pm
    Have with the current bow hurled 1-3 gram, oval/globular, fired clay pellets, measuring 1-2 cm in length, a little over 15 meters and could easily have gotten at least 20 meters at a fairly low angle. They often fracture on impact with the metal wall behind the wooden board I aim at. 




    Kick wrote on Apr 21st, 2021 at 7:21am:
    Well there are slingshot trigger mechanisms that would work with a pellet bow I think. They hold the pouch together and so stop the ammo moving before release.

    The pellet bow needs to be primitive and simple. That sounds too much like a stonebow.



    Archaic Arms wrote on Apr 20th, 2021 at 12:47pm:
    Coupled with the grip that puts a cap on power,

    Ehh, that might be true for the current grip but that could be solved with another design. Sketching new ones as we write. Thinking of something like the current grip except it is attached diagonally to the bow so that it's held like you would a regular bow but automatically twisted. Or a wristbrace protruding from the grip like on some slingshots. This model and design is called a wrist-rocket btw.
    trumark-ws-1-original-wrist-rocket-slingshot-3.jpg (124 KB | 9 )

    Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by Morphy on Apr 21st, 2021 at 3:27pm

    Kick wrote on Apr 21st, 2021 at 7:21am:
    Well there are slingshot trigger mechanisms that would work with a pellet bow I think. They hold the pouch together and so stop the ammo moving before release.


    Yes, true. One could also simply modify a compound mechanical release. But ideally I would like a design that could be made and used in a primitive setting although admittedly that just me.

    Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by Slyngorm on Jul 20th, 2021 at 2:54pm
    Made a tiny double pellet bow.
    IMG_2574.JPG (372 KB | 5 )
    IMG_2567.JPG (380 KB | 4 )

    Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by Slyngorm on Nov 14th, 2021 at 4:03pm
    Full draw, double bow.
    This thing can shoot both arrows and pellets. It has a notch carved into its handle for arrows.

    https://www.bitchute.com/video/HmWgf1J4c5CS/
    https://www.bitchute.com/video/bYnqn6C9iYe5/


    dobble.jpg (416 KB | 2 )

    Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by IronGoober on Nov 15th, 2021 at 12:02am
    Oh, that's dang cool! Nice work.

    Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by Morphy on Nov 15th, 2021 at 6:23am
    Although Slyngorm and I have talked about this pretty extensively in private I want to reiterate just how cool this is on here. The ability to make a primitive non-rubber based slingshot that can also shoot arrows is simply mad. I love it! Lol.  This also seems much easier and more straightforward to aim than your traditional pellet bow.

    The whole non rubber primitive slingshot is actually a really neat "paleo-engineering" thought experiment. I would love to see more people try to tackle this as well some day.

    Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by Kick on Nov 16th, 2021 at 3:48am
    Super cool! What sort of distances can you get?

    Title: Re: Pellet bow
    Post by Slyngorm on Nov 20th, 2021 at 2:05pm
    Will make an introduction to double bows some time. Though there is very little info.
    Here is the one I made this summer.


    IronGoober wrote on Nov 15th, 2021 at 12:02am:
    Oh, that's dang cool! Nice work.

    Thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanks  ;D  ;D ;D



    Morphy wrote on Nov 15th, 2021 at 6:23am:
    The ability to make a primitive non-rubber based slingshot that can also shoot arrows is simply mad.

    Yup yup yup. It is the best feel to have such a thing. Still can't get over how cool it is.


    Morphy wrote on Nov 15th, 2021 at 6:23am:
    This also seems much easier and more straightforward to aim than your traditional pellet bow.

    It is so much nicer. No more straining your grip on the single pellet bow.




    Kick wrote on Nov 16th, 2021 at 3:48am:
    Super cool! What sort of distances can you get?

    Arrows: at least 50 meters
    Pellets (1,5-2 cm, spherical stone, fired at a 45 degree angle): little over 30 meters.
    I don't know how much that is compared to a slingshot. But the wooden dividers and pouch takes a real toll on the power.




    IMG_2734.JPG (453 KB | 2 )

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