Slinging.org Forum
https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl
General >> General Slinging Discussion >> Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1615590144

Message started by Morphy on Mar 12th, 2021 at 6:02pm

Title: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Morphy on Mar 12th, 2021 at 6:02pm
Poll time!!! Who doesnít like a good poll? Ok dont answer that.

My question is, using the Greek throw as an example can we say it or other ďless lovedĒ styles arenít capable of good accuracy? I do wonder if many people are perhaps using too long a sling or small a stone with a throw that has a total wind-up/pitch of less than one rotation.

If you are used to a rotor is it possible we canít achieve the best results using our longer rotor sling or Balearic design?

Now, I know a guy who knows a guy who as we speak has beaten the fastest sling reload and throw speed record out there. Our reigning champ Mr. Jaegoor has set up a worthy record to try and beat and let me tell you, I have seen the video and it has been beaten. BUT... Iím not allowed to mention who at the moment. Nor would I ever without permission.

So. Why do I bring up speed reloading? Because I think we believe this throw and others donít work because we are applying the same designs and set ups to different throws. Not to mention mindsets.

This is not just about the Greek itís about all misplaced and unloved throws. And speed reloading is the main subject we have talked about recently where there was some debate whether it had any merit at all as a throw.

So, hypothetically speaking... do you think all these less used throws like the underarm, the Greek, the Apache are actually just as good in a lot of ways (potentially better in some) than more accepted throws and we simply havenít figured out the right way to get the best results with them? What could be changed in your set up to make them meet their true potential?

A video showing you trying something different with our lost and unloved throws would be awesome. Just to test and get people motivated to do it themselves.

I really want to look into this more. Any thoughts?

Wait...let me take cover...† ;D

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Hirtius on Mar 12th, 2021 at 7:57pm
You know what time it is, it's time for controversial opinions.

In my personal experience, "greek" style seems to work best with a short (50.8 cm/20 in) and less flexible sling. However, I don't like using it. I can get the same or better results with that sling with some other style.

Underarm is more usable, but it is personally an awkward arm motion. One thing I've heard people say before that underarm is for more range, but I highly doubt that. I can get higher speeds and can sling at different angles with other styles. It's neat, but in my experience it doesn't have much purpose.

Anyways, this related to a topic that I've wanted to talk about, but I've already recently made a couple of topics recently so I'm holding off. I'll summarize my thoughts.

Again these are my personal (Emphasis on this part!) perceptions and speculations.

For styles like "Greek" style and "Apache", I don't think they're "real styles". What I mean by "real styles" is that I don't think I they were ever used historically. While I don't know the origins for Apache, I have looked at a number of ancient depictions from Etruscan tombs to the near east (Kapara slinger relief) that depict the "Greek style". The reason I have this in quotations is not because it isn't Greek, but that I don't think these depictions are showing what we call "Greek style".

Let me explain. First of all, is doing it myself. Although I don't have the experience of others, I have been slinging for a while. In that time, I've tried out the Greek style (overhand and sidearm). My impression is... not good. The problem I run into is speed/power. In my experience, starting at the front is a suboptimal position. Although it's the main throw that gives it power, I feel it's harder to get to that point. The other potential indicator is in the art. In most examples I've seen, the sling is actually not above the head (as many do Greek style today), but to the side. Here are a couple examples:

https://artsandculture.google.com/asset/stone-relief-of-a-slinger-from-the-palace-of-king-kapara/7wE6wY7SpMgSMQ?hl=en
(Copy and paste the link or look up "King Kapara slinging relief")

https://coins.www.collectors-society.com/wcm/CoinView.aspx?sc=319922

http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1577297750/9

They can be positioned to either side of the head, although the ones with the sling on the opposite side from the throwing arm† are somewhat awkward to me.

So what does this depict? My speculation is that it is both a pose and a starting point for one or more additional spins.

Remember how I said that the opposite side of the head from the throwing arm was a bit awkward? Well, it sort of has a parallel. The Polynesian style has the sling across the back. I can't remember where I read this (maybe it was on this website), but I read that the behind the back starting position leads into a single rotation, which then leads into the shot. I've actually tried this, and it works well. For background, my preferred style is the single rotation (Byzantine), so this wasn't much of an adjustment. I'm not saying the original "Greek style" was like this, as it could have been used with any amount of rotations.

---

Is Greek a bad style? I'd say yes, but it's kind of neat that this exists. It's also something that probably isn't used to its full potential, but that's probably because relatively few people probably invest into this technique. It might be for good reason that people don't do it, but it might be nice to try something different.

My position on Apache and Underarm are quite similar. They're cool and it's always great to try something new, but there is probably a reason they go unloved. I personally find them to have drawbacks in the way they work with the body.

However, if someone did get good with any of these or some other unconventional style I would love to see it.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Morphy on Mar 12th, 2021 at 8:45pm

Hirtius wrote on Mar 12th, 2021 at 7:57pm:
You know what time it is, it's time for controversial opinions.

In my personal experience, "greek" style seems to work best with a short (50.8 cm/20 in) and less flexible sling. However, I don't like using it. I can get the same or better results with that sling with some other style.

Underarm is more usable, but it is personally an awkward arm motion. One thing I've heard people say before that underarm is for more range, but I highly doubt that. I can get higher speeds and can sling at different angles with other styles. It's neat, but in my experience it doesn't have much purpose.

Anyways, this related to a topic that I've wanted to talk about, but I've already recently made a couple of topics recently so I'm holding off. I'll summarize my thoughts.

Again these are my personal (Emphasis on this part!) perceptions and speculations.

For styles like "Greek" style and "Apache", I don't think they're "real styles". What I mean by "real styles" is that I don't think I they were ever used historically. While I don't know the origins for Apache, I have looked at a number of ancient depictions from Etruscan tombs to the near east (Kapara slinger relief) that depict the "Greek style". The reason I have this in quotations is not because it isn't Greek, but that I don't think these depictions are showing what we call "Greek style".

Let me explain. First of all, is doing it myself. Although I don't have the experience of others, I have been slinging for a while. In that time, I've tried out the Greek style (overhand and sidearm). My impression is... not good. The problem I run into is speed/power. In my experience, starting at the front is a suboptimal position. Although it's the main throw that gives it power, I feel it's harder to get to that point. The other potential indicator is in the art. In most examples I've seen, the sling is actually not above the head (as many do Greek style today), but to the side. Here are a couple examples:

https://artsandculture.google.com/asset/stone-relief-of-a-slinger-from-the-palace-of-king-kapara/7wE6wY7SpMgSMQ?hl=en
(Copy and paste the link or look up "King Kapara slinging relief")

https://coins.www.collectors-society.com/wcm/CoinView.aspx?sc=319922

http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1577297750/9

They can be positioned to either side of the head, although the ones with the sling on the opposite side from the throwing arm† are somewhat awkward to me.

So what does this depict? My speculation is that it is both a pose and a starting point for one or more additional spins.

Remember how I said that the opposite side of the head from the throwing arm was a bit awkward? Well, it sort of has a parallel. The Polynesian style has the sling across the back. I can't remember where I read this (maybe it was on this website), but I read that the behind the back starting position leads into a single rotation, which then leads into the shot. I've actually tried this, and it works well. For background, my preferred style is the single rotation (Byzantine), so this wasn't much of an adjustment. I'm not saying the original "Greek style" was like this, as it could have been used with any amount of rotations.

---

Is Greek a bad style? I'd say yes, but it's kind of neat that this exists. It's also something that probably isn't used to its full potential, but that's probably because relatively few people probably invest into this technique. It might be for good reason that people don't do it, but it might be nice to try something different.

My position on Apache and Underarm are quite similar. They're cool and it's always great to try something new, but there is probably a reason they go unloved. I personally find them to have drawbacks in the way they work with the body.

However, if someone did get good with any of these or some other unconventional style I would love to see it.


Excellent thoughts Hirtius.  Iím glad you finally joined us. I hope others will chime in as well. You had so many things I could reply to I better hold off for now and see where this leads us.   :D

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Scorpion Vin on Mar 12th, 2021 at 8:48pm
Greek style with a 95 cm long sling, can have good accuracy and power of the shot if you know some of the nuances, I was pleasantly impressed when I hit 3 times in a row from 20 meters in one direction with a difference of 2-3 meters.

In general, in order to achieve accuracy, try to pass the sling through the bottom almost vertically behind your back, as if pushing with your left hand and with your right hand you make a very short movement, the orientation of the pocket is just wonderfully controlled and the shot turns out to be powerful even if you have not invested decent body energy into it

Pass the dressing slightly behind your back at the time of the shot, it turns out, as it were, an instant interception - the transition from the left hand to the right

had the worst accuracy again when I did as others tried to copy. As I already wrote somewhere, each style needs to be redone for yourself so that it is convenient for you.

When I shot in the Greek style, making a swing, as it were, behind the neck and head, it turned out not as well as if my swing passed behind my back and smoothly intercepted from the left hand into the swing of the right hand (if you are right-handed) and vice versa, I can do it with both hands shoot in any style and subtype of style

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Scorpion Vin on Mar 12th, 2021 at 8:54pm
For me, the worst style is when the spin is going forward, I donít understand at all how to shoot like that, it turns out a throw with force, as if you were throwing your hand without a sling,
just like this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SXLtRxabYA&ab_channel=OlegAnatolich

But if you spin backwards, from top to bottom, it turns out much better, although it is still not so, my favorite styles are in order Byzantine, Greek, Balearic, Underarm

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Jaegoor on Mar 12th, 2021 at 8:56pm
On the subject of fast shooting.  I think it was Tint.  He also showed fast shooting.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by IronGoober on Mar 12th, 2021 at 10:48pm
Morphy, I really don't care if you share it.† It's on a public website after all.

https://youtu.be/AZGlEKCkjic

Not as accurate as you, Jaegoor, but this was after about 30 minutes of practice and I wasn't concerned with being accurate.(I have practiced a few times previously, months ago, too).† As you can see, I'm pretty clumsy getting a new ball reloaded. This serves your point about the extra spin giving you more time to grab another ball, resulting in more fluid motion overall.† However, If I can get setup so I can grab two at once, I think I can get 12-14 shots in 30s if I can cleanly grab 2 at a time from my bag. And Fluidity will likely come from a bit more practice.

But I think that you are right, Tint demonstrated the fastest speed slinging I've seen. I think the video was taken down. I found his other videos and didn't see his fast slinging video.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by David Morningstar on Mar 13th, 2021 at 1:52am

The Apache is absolutely a historical style: https://web.archive.org/web/20121016033429/http://slinging.org/index.php?page=how-to-build-and-use-a-traditional-apache-sling---l-w-forsyth

Although the Greek style is entirely a modern speculative interpretation, I am a firm believer in it because of its speed.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Jaegoor on Mar 13th, 2021 at 4:31am
The idea of ​​grabbing two is good.  😁 I'll try that.  At some point I got 2 seconds per shot.  I also measured that at Tint.  It won't be much faster.  See their movement as a whole.  It's already very fluid.  In moments when you pull yourself out of your arms, you lose rhythm.  These are moments when the head starts to act.  I know that too.  Overall a nice video.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Mar 13th, 2021 at 10:33am
I like where this is going!  A little friendly competition pushes everyone to improve :)

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by SerKraus on Mar 13th, 2021 at 11:31am

David Morningstar wrote on Mar 13th, 2021 at 1:52am:
The Apache is absolutely a historical style: https://web.archive.org/web/20121016033429/http://slinging.org/index.php?page=how-to-build-and-use-a-traditional-apache-sling---l-w-forsyth

Although the Greek style is entirely a modern speculative interpretation, I am a firm believer in it because of its speed.


Why is all of that information gone now?

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Kick on Mar 13th, 2021 at 11:35am
Resident Web Wizard Oxnate can answer more accurately I'm sure but basically a few years back the slinging.org website went peculiar and the whole thing was lost. Sort of. It's still possible to find most of it on the web archive and then I think C_A has the whole thing but in some unreadable format, or something, but Oxnate is currently working to resurrect/recreate/reanimate it.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by IronGoober on Mar 13th, 2021 at 11:45am

Jaegoor wrote on Mar 13th, 2021 at 4:31am:
The idea of ​​grabbing two is good.† 😁 I'll try that.† At some point I got 2 seconds per shot.† I also measured that at Tint.† It won't be much faster.† See their movement as a whole.† It's already very fluid.† In moments when you pull yourself out of your arms, you lose rhythm.† These are moments when the head starts to act.† I know that too.† Overall a nice video.


I agree that ~2 seconds per shot is the fastest that is possible.  My ammo-bag kept falling closed when I was reaching for another ball, which made it difficult to be consistent.  I need to find something to hold it open and something to hold it in place, as it kept swinging around.

Jaegoor, does your ammo-pouch hold on to your belt? It looks very stable in your video(s).

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Kick on Mar 13th, 2021 at 12:11pm
A pouch like this works well. It's a cartridge bag for spent shells and hangs off a belt.
tumblr_acb07bf2f96ea2340d7423ec55d6d4ad_020c2d33_1280_002.jpg (490 KB | 15 )

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Kick on Mar 13th, 2021 at 12:20pm
This is another good one, a dump pouch. Good for tennis balls.
tumblr_plhqf01CKA1rnujq3_540_001.jpg (53 KB | 15 )

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by joe_meadmaker on Mar 13th, 2021 at 1:02pm
Great stuff IG!† Nice consistency while concentrating on speed.† :thumb:

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Rat Man on Mar 13th, 2021 at 1:52pm
  The problem I have with Greek isn't accuracy, it's range.  Other than Apache, for me at least it has the worst range.
   I've mentioned before that for no good reason at all the first few months of my slinging career I used nothing but Apache Style.  It's advantage, of course, is that there's no wind up to give away your position to potential game or enemies.  The best range I could ever get out of Apache, though, was only about ninety yards.
   Underarm is my most accurate style.  I don't get quite the range with it that I do with styles like Helicopter and Balearic but it's adequate.  One advantage to underarm is that due to its top spin, after your projectile hits the ground or water it bounces forward and low, giving you a second chance to hit your target. The backspin you get with overhand styles tends to make your projectile bounce straight up if it bounces at all. 
    Turkey Hill makes a killer Rocky Road.  I seldom buy it because when I do I eat the whole half gallon by myself in one or two sittings. 

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Hirtius on Mar 13th, 2021 at 4:06pm

David Morningstar wrote on Mar 13th, 2021 at 1:52am:
The Apache is absolutely a historical style: https://web.archive.org/web/20121016033429/http://slinging.org/index.php?page=how-to-build-and-use-a-traditional-apache-sling---l-w-forsyth

Although the Greek style is entirely a modern speculative interpretation, I am a firm believer in it because of its speed.


Huh, that's really interesting. I guess that makes sense about the name. However, I really wish the guy who wrote that left a doodle or something of how it's done, because what he describes is a nightmare.

I've tried the style a number of times before, but I was always pretty dismissive of it because it was terrible anytime. I either got something that was way too slow going way too high, or something super fast but going directly into the ground. I could never get a happy medium.

Today I tried the style again, but this time I decided to give it a good college try. Low and behold, the results were exactly the same. Pathetic range and power or spiking it into the ground. However, I discovered a brand new disdain for this style. It's actually quite painful to do. Now, I've read about people in this forum being sore from certain styles before. I'm a young guy, so I probably have less of a problem with this than others. My arm with get tired and a little sore after a lot of slinging, but give it a while and I hardly notice. There is one exception to this, and that is when I "dry fire" a heavy stone. I screw around sometimes and use rocks that are way too big for the pouch, which causes the rock to fall out prematurely and the arm to jerk forward. It causes more serious soreness, and I've had to get much better about not being so goofy with what I sling. But with Apache style? Even with smaller rocks, I get some of that same feeling. Seriously trying Apache style was a bad idea. I was trying to follow the description as best as I could, but it is probably the most unnatural and ineffective slinging style there is. It makes me believe that there is something wrong with the description given.

I would have loved to actually see it or have a video of it (remember, documentation is important), because the textual evidence and existing examples I've seen describe something I can't imagine. You might point out that I don't have extensive experience with this and you're right, but the impression I've gotten from everyone else besides the initial source is that it's incredibly awkward.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by IronGoober on Mar 13th, 2021 at 5:58pm
I once shared your disdain. But recently, I picked it up again, and I can see the merits of the style. I'm certainly less consistent with it than my other methods, but it has it's place. I can make a video of how I do it. Give me a week or so. It's raining tomorrow.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Hirtius on Mar 13th, 2021 at 6:23pm

IronGoober wrote on Mar 13th, 2021 at 5:58pm:
I once shared your disdain. But recently, I picked it up again, and I can see the merits of the style. I'm certainly less consistent with it than my other methods, but it has it's place. I can make a video of how I do it. Give me a week or so. It's raining tomorrow.


That would be cool to see how you make it work.

I use to have a dismissive attitude towards figure 8 thinking that no one would have ever used it, until I saw this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7r-2xkXdelI) from Papua New Guinea. It seems like separated people on different sides of the world had converged on the same style, even the starting position. After that I practiced a bit more I was able to get the hang of it, and I could now see why people would use that style.

And while while I'm on this topic, I'll go a little off topic. If not for this video, I wouldn't have ever taken figure 8 seriously. However, it's also a bit depressing. If you read the description, it's one of the few places where the sling is still made. I would also guess that it might be in decline even in that local area, as one of the steps of the sling's decline is being relegated as a child's toy, though an older man at the end poses with a sling. It might get to that point soon. It's kind of sad to think that some of the last remaining slinging cultures are in decline. Again I'm just guessing, but I think that the old man of that article might have been one of the last people to use the "Apache" style as his native style.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Kick on Mar 14th, 2021 at 9:48am
I would say that one thing that helps is not coming down straight vertically. A 45 degree angle can help with getting that in between release.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by J on Mar 15th, 2021 at 2:59pm
Figure 8 produces a very flat trajectory, I like that style with a short (50 cm) sling when I am in narrow areas like a forest trail. Short because I don't like halve the sling smacking the ground. It's a good style also for slinging head on.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Morphy on Mar 15th, 2021 at 6:30pm
So what Iím getting from this is sort of what I suspected all along. Rocky Road is the favorite slinging style of Slinging.Org.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by joe_meadmaker on Mar 15th, 2021 at 7:50pm
I'm betting everyone secretly wanted to vote for vanilla.† Probably just concerned that everyone else would think they're boring.† ;)

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Hirtius on Mar 15th, 2021 at 9:17pm
Rocky road? Sounds like chocolate with extra steps.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Morphy on Mar 16th, 2021 at 1:31am
The two replies above me are why I love this forum.  :)

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Kick on Mar 16th, 2021 at 3:36am
I'll say it, my favourite flavour is vanilla. I'm not afraid. Give me a good quality vanilla over chocolate any day. If vanilla is boring, that's because it's bad quality vanilla.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by J on Mar 16th, 2021 at 5:19am
Underarm is the easiest style on the muscles and joints, health wise.

The very steep overhand the figure 8 produces is probably the least easy on the joints when you throw hard.

This style of cast is similar to an overhand cast I perform with a hand thrown stone, and similar to an overhand cast I do with a spear or atlatl. So this style of throwing shares ground with other weapons. I think an atlatlist would like figure 8 very much.

If underarm is the easiest on the body, and near-vertical overhand the toughest, than sidearm is probably in the middle when it comes to joint and muscle pressure.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by JudoP on Mar 16th, 2021 at 7:36am
Team rocky road woop woop!

Honestly it would surprise me if fig 8 wasn't commonly used historically. It works very well mechanically, you can get way more power than straight overarm (apache), at least I can.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Slyngorm on Mar 16th, 2021 at 8:07am
I am firm believer in the Greek overhand. Has been since I discovered it and have used it ever since. Just yesterday I slung for the first time in months using the overhand and was amazed by how much accuracy I retained.
I have never had problems with range though I mostly sling at 20-15 meters.


Hirtius wrote on Mar 12th, 2021 at 7:57pm:
They can be positioned to either side of the head, although the ones with the sling on the opposite side from the throwing arm  are somewhat awkward to me.

So what does this depict? My speculation is that it is both a pose and a starting point for one or more additional spins.

Can't see why they couldn't depict a Greek style. They might look a little awkward but it is perfectly possible to do a Greek from that position. Or maybe it is a question of artistic merit.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Hirtius on Mar 16th, 2021 at 3:05pm

Slyngorm wrote on Mar 16th, 2021 at 8:07am:
I am firm believer in the Greek overhand. Has been since I discovered it and have used it ever since. Just yesterday I slung for the first time in months using the overhand and was amazed by how much accuracy I retained.
I have never had problems with range though I mostly sling at 20-15 meters.


Hirtius wrote on Mar 12th, 2021 at 7:57pm:
They can be positioned to either side of the head, although the ones with the sling on the opposite side from the throwing arm† are somewhat awkward to me.

So what does this depict? My speculation is that it is both a pose and a starting point for one or more additional spins.

Can't see why they couldn't depict a Greek style. They might look a little awkward but it is perfectly possible to do a Greek from that position. Or maybe it is a question of artistic merit.


I can't really argue with personal preference, but I can try to explain where I find issue. I find that even with a boost from my arm, the stone doesn't have enough movement or is in the right position. I find that I can't accelerate it to the same extent due to that shorter distance, especially when starting it off in an awkward position (which shortness the distance a bit more).

I hear that greek overhand is more accurate, but is it more accurate or are you throwing slower than you are able to? With practice in other styles it is possible to get both power and accuracy. Do you feel you can get the best power and accuracy out of it that you are capable of?

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Jaegoor on Mar 16th, 2021 at 3:37pm
Certainly you can throw as you like.  For me they are varieties.  Something really bothers me though.  But from the athlete's point of view.  The Balearic Islands have a rule work.  It says that the sling must be turned several times to count as a shot.  This rule has been softened internationally.  Everyone turns and shoots as they want.  Personally, I don't think it's right.  And there is little respect for the Balearic Islands.  There should be an international structure.  And there is already a fixed structure.  It's a personal opinion.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Kick on Mar 16th, 2021 at 3:49pm
I think of it as other sports. People can run in any style they want (within reason) they can throw javelins how they want (within reason) I think slinging should be the same.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Morphy on Mar 16th, 2021 at 4:07pm

JudoP wrote on Mar 16th, 2021 at 7:36am:
Team rocky road woop woop!

Honestly it would surprise me if fig 8 wasn't commonly used historically. It works very well mechanically, you can get way more power than straight overarm (apache), at least I can.


Rocky Road is amazing. I love the fig-8 as well. Combine them both and you have a recipe for a good time.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Slyngorm on Mar 16th, 2021 at 4:28pm
You can get more power by moving your hand in a tiny circle after releasing the pouch as if you are pulling the pouch around. Then end it by pushing it forward before release. Like this I get both power and accuracy.

What do you mean with ďslowĒ throwing.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Hirtius on Mar 16th, 2021 at 9:47pm

Slyngorm wrote on Mar 16th, 2021 at 4:28pm:
You can get more power by moving your hand in a tiny circle after releasing the pouch as if you are pulling the pouch around. Then end it by pushing it forward before release. Like this I get both power and accuracy.

What do you mean with ďslowĒ throwing.


I didn't say anything about "slow" throwing, just slower than you are able to. For me, Greek overhand is slower. It can be accurate, but I don't feel I'm able to get as much power out of it. Especially with heavier stones, I would find myself doing a bit of a lob with Greek overhand that I send straighter with other styles. I was just asking if you feel you are able to use your full power with that style.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Kick on Mar 17th, 2021 at 5:12am
I feel the same about Greek. I can get more power with Fig. 8, sidearm or helicopter.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Slyngorm on Mar 17th, 2021 at 5:44am
What does slower throwing mean?
And yes, I do not feel lacking in power when using the Greek overhand.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by TOMBELAINE on Mar 17th, 2021 at 6:10am
Greek style like the coin of Aspendios.
Power is given by the trunk. Shoulders and pelvis remain aligned. Just my idea.
I think that this style is quick and may be beneficial for hunting and war (point-blank range).
I'm just guessing.
https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=DSCN4485.MOV (4188 KB | 28 )

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Jaegoor on Mar 17th, 2021 at 6:59am
Kick .... Throwing with a spear is strictly regulated.  There are only two types of handles, the weight is predetermined.  Also where the grip on the spear may be.  The field is also regulated.  And also how much run-up you can have.  Please have a look at the Balearic rules.  We are far away.  😁

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Hirtius on Mar 17th, 2021 at 2:34pm

Slyngorm wrote on Mar 17th, 2021 at 5:44am:
What does slower throwing mean?
And yes, I do not feel lacking in power when using the Greek overhand.


I'm not sure if I understand the question. You already asked that.

The only context I say "throwing slower" is in regards to accuracy.
"I hear that greek overhand is more accurate, but is it more accurate or are you throwing slower than you are able to?"

I've already explained that Greek overhand as I've tried it is slower. I don't have a problem with accuracy with Greek overhand, it's how fast it goes. Slinging slower helps with accuracy.

You've already said you don't have an issue with that, which would probably due to greater practice.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by David Morningstar on Mar 17th, 2021 at 4:26pm

I find that Greek done flat, like a semi-helicopter, absolutely rips. But, you have to wind up your body before the throw, twisting everything against the throwing direction then springing back in a powerful unwinding motion. Also, the sling has to be short, about to your shoulder be no more.

This guy from about a million years ago in YouTube years is what I'm talking about

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fc_rAly4oLY&ab_channel=asgesa2

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by IronGoober on Mar 17th, 2021 at 7:47pm
Right on, David. That is who I was thinking of.

For a stone, an average speed over 30m of 40m/s had to have been released above 50m/s I would think, based on my own measurements with my speed gun and frame counting.

Essentially and style can get power if you do it right. Look at AlbionSlinger. He's managed +50m/s with a sling that was something like 15 inches long. You just have to figure out the body mechanics.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Morphy on Mar 17th, 2021 at 7:51pm

IronGoober wrote on Mar 17th, 2021 at 7:47pm:
Essentially any style can get power if you do it right. You just have to figure out the body mechanics.


There it is.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by IronGoober on Mar 17th, 2021 at 11:15pm
Come on Morphy, show some respect. ;)

https://writingcommons.org/article/omitting-words-from-a-direct-quotation-mla/

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by TOMBELAINE on Mar 18th, 2021 at 9:28am
With the sling on the other side of the head, you create a spring. By bringing back the pelvis, the spring is released. The arm goes forword like a whip.
No need for force.
Another video at maximum speed.
https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=DSCN4501.MOV (3500 KB | 31 )

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Morphy on Mar 18th, 2021 at 9:59am
Very nice Tombe! That looked quite powerful. Iím convinced if the sling/ammo was set up right it could work really good.

On a different note Iíve decided my next thread must be Rocky Road vs Armor

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by IronGoober on Mar 21st, 2021 at 7:03pm
As promised, here is my version of the Apache style throw. With this sling, byzantine style is ~75-80mph, a bit higher if I'm concentrating on speed rather than precision.

https://youtu.be/rNooLVQBusY

Here, for the apache, I was just attempting to not throw over the whole target. You can see I don't raise my arm up very high...but it works. After a bit of practice, I was able to hit my target with this, albeit not as consistently with my other styles that I practice much more regularly.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Hirtius on Mar 21st, 2021 at 9:06pm

IronGoober wrote on Mar 21st, 2021 at 7:03pm:
As promised, here is my version of the Apache style throw. With this sling, byzantine style is ~75-80mph, a bit higher if I'm concentrating on speed rather than precision.

https://youtu.be/rNooLVQBusY

Here, for the apache, I was just attempting to not throw over the whole target. You can see I don't raise my arm up very high...but it works. After a bit of practice, I was able to hit my target with this, albeit not as consistently with my other styles that I practice much more regularly.


Looks great!

Accuracy might be harder even with further away. Still, it didn't fly up into the air or spike like it did for me, so you're doing something a lot better. Perhaps what I did wrong was having my arm too vertical, where you angled it a lot more. Other demonstrations have kept the vertical throw, which might be why I was doing it so poorly. I wish the original source wasn't so vague.

http://www.prepperuniverse.com/how-to-build-and-use-a-traditional-apache-sling-l-w-forsyth/

This brings up the point of how we define terms in slinging. Overhand can often mean almost sidearm to completely vertical. I'm not sure how we would do it, but there has to be a better way to define these terms.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Hirtius on Mar 21st, 2021 at 9:57pm
Also, I've reevaluated "Greek style" again by practicing a bit and experimenting a little.

First and foremost, I still keep my opinion on the modern style of holding it over the head. I have no idea why, but that style is still relatively ineffective for me compared to the other two. The styles I like better are the depictions shown in the art. I'm not sure if this one does. The closest example I've seen is the Makron cup, which if you look at the hand in relation to the head it looks like the throwing arm side style (I have to think of a better name for it).

Naming ideas: "Greek conventional" (sling held on the throwing arm side) and "Greek unconventional" (sling held on the opposite of the throwing side). The "unconventional" doesn't mean it was unconventional historically, if even used at all. Just unconventional as far as modern use is concerned.


First of which I'll cover is holding the sling on the throwing arm side. The example I found was the Etruscan urn ( http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1577297750/9 ). It is also depicted with Heracles slinging at the stymphalian birds (and also probably the Makron cup). This is probably the intended "Greek overhand" that we've tried to replicate (though we can't know if it was only one motion). While the Heracles and Makron cup depictions show more traditional hand positions (in being held back at the distance used today), I tried with arm way back like on the Etruscan urn (which might have only been doing that due to length of the sling). Other than that, standard Greek overhand stuff. Remember to twist your body when throwing, that makes a big difference. Don't leave the stone with only gravity acting on it, that causes the stone to fall out. Overall, I found this style a bit more controllable than the other one, but also a bit less powerful. It has still been redeemed, as it is a bit more comparable with other styles, though I personally am not yet much of a fan.

Second is holding the sling on the opposite side of the throwing arm. This is represented on coins from Aspendos and the Kapra slinging relief. Your slinging arm needs to be held behind your head in order for the sling to be straight. It's and awkward position. Other than that, similar advice. Don't let the gravity work too, and twist your body. However, this one is a faster and more violent movement, and I've found it to be more powerful than the other style. It's a bit harder to control, but still perfectly doable. Unlike with the other style, I felt comfortable in throwing larger stones with it. Personally, I like it more than the previous style, though it makes you hold a weird position.

For the "Greek" style as a whole, it's been redeemed but still has some annoying quirks that will keep it from being one I really love. If I wasn't paying attention, I found that was liable to let the stone fall out. This isn't a problem I really have with other styles. Heavier stones were also harder to get that initial momentum to keep them stable. I also forgot to twist my body quite a bit. It sounds stupid, but other styles it's kind of just built in to muscle memory. I felt here that I needed to make more of a conscious effort to remember to do that. One advantage of Greek style is that you can get off shots fast, but I'm not skilled enough to do that with any accuracy or effectiveness. Trying to do it fast makes me accidentally drop the stone a bit more.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Morphy on Mar 21st, 2021 at 10:04pm

IronGoober wrote on Mar 17th, 2021 at 11:15pm:
Come on Morphy, show some respect. ;)

https://www.DefinitelyReadThatWebsite.com



Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Jaegoor on Mar 22nd, 2021 at 4:46am
The images always follow a stylistic pattern and time frame.  Creating a style out of this is very daring.  In addition, they only see one scene.  No movement.  On the trajan column you can see a slinger with a shield and cloak.  Its stones are in the cloak.  At the same time he is still holding his shield.  That's a strong picture.  Very heroic.  But not very practical.  It certainly wasn't like that.  Of course, you can speculate and try and decide.  It is not logical.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by J on Mar 22nd, 2021 at 5:23am
There are quite effective ways to carry stones within a cloak, I have done this. But I agree that  they way it is depicted there with a shield is odd.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by TOMBELAINE on Mar 22nd, 2021 at 5:55am
Ok with you, Jaegoor.
It's impossible to say that it's like this at this time. We can just say we can throw like this.
Thor Heyerdahl crossed the Pacific on a canoe. It doesn't prove that men tried it before him. He would have failed, it doesn't prove that no one can succeed.
We must test and do not answer by yes or no. If we don't test, who will do it for us ?

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Morphy on Mar 22nd, 2021 at 5:55am

AncientCraftwork wrote on Mar 22nd, 2021 at 5:23am:
There are quite effective ways to carry stones within a cloak, I have done this. But I agree that† they way it is depicted there with a shield is odd.


Its hard for me to imagine but im more a visual learner. Do you have a picture of how to do this correctly?

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Jaegoor on Mar 22nd, 2021 at 7:26am
Don't get me wrong.  I am in favor of trying out and trying a lot.  Of course, a lot is possible.  However, I don't think it's right to call it style.  I have no words to properly explain my thoughts.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by TOMBELAINE on Mar 22nd, 2021 at 9:38am
Jaegoor, I agree with you.
Define a style is a risky business.
I prefer to set up a situation and ask myself if it works. A hundred brainless screamind and armed charge to me, "Aspendios" works.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Albion Slinger on Mar 22nd, 2021 at 11:56am
As long as you have something to act as a belt (a spare sling perhaps?), it's easy to make a very effective and large pocket with a cloak. When wearing a Roman tunic, the same thing is achieved when you pull the excess length up to the knees and stuff it down behind the belt. I have both, so I could demonstrate.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Morphy on Mar 22nd, 2021 at 12:07pm

Archaic Arms wrote on Mar 22nd, 2021 at 11:56am:
As long as you have something to act as a belt (a spare sling perhaps?), it's easy to make a very effective and large pocket with a cloak. When wearing a Roman tunic, the same thing is achieved when you pull the excess length up to the knees and stuff it down behind the belt. I have both, so I could demonstrate.


Is this for me? If so that would be much appreciated.  :D

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by J on Mar 22nd, 2021 at 1:06pm
When I waer my historical outfit with cloak and belt and sling the first thing I did was place stones in a pocket I formed. It works well and I think slingers did carry stones in their cloak, but maybe not the way it is depicted on the column. Cloaks are very versatile with many configurations and some result in a perfect stone pocket on me left or right side.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by J on Mar 22nd, 2021 at 1:15pm
You don't need much to create a slingers historical outfit. A large, cheap military wool blanket to serve as a tunic cloak, a leather belt to hold it together and some foot and leg wraps and you can jump back thousands of years in time. it is beneficial for accuracy.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by J on Mar 22nd, 2021 at 1:23pm
it also helps to grow your hair long and a beard, this adds 10 points to accuracy. Sorry morphy

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by David Morningstar on Mar 22nd, 2021 at 4:22pm

Oh boy, I had completely forgotten about the ammo bag on the arm. Two sources means I have to try it.

I also means they are definitely taking their ammo with the right hand, sorry Jaegoor  ;)

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Jaegoor on Mar 22nd, 2021 at 4:48pm
https://youtu.be/tG7JORFOXqU ;
You can also see a bag on the trajan column.  Wearing in a coat.  Is very impractical.  In a fighting situation, you have to move.  As skirmishers, you may have to run fast too.  They do not have a shield and stones on the same arm.  It doesn't work very long.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Morphy on Mar 22nd, 2021 at 5:38pm

AncientCraftwork wrote on Mar 22nd, 2021 at 1:23pm:
it also helps to grow your hair long and a beard, this adds 10 points to accuracy. Sorry morphy



No!!!! Im doomed!  ;D ;D :D

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Curious Aardvark on Mar 22nd, 2021 at 5:49pm
All throws have their plusses and minuses.

The thing to remember, or realise. is that ALL 'styles' are simply the pre-amble to the release.
And there are only two release types.

vertical and horizontal.

Everything that comes before the throw/release is simply waving your arm about in the hope that it will add extra power/accuracy to the release.

So probably best to re-categorise most throw 'styles' as windup styles.

There are ONLY two THROWING styles :-)
 

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Jaegoor on Mar 22nd, 2021 at 6:41pm
All good things come in threes.  😁.  Above, to the side, below.  Numerous other litter types can be created from these.  I've been telling this for years.  It's no different from martial arts.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Morphy on Mar 22nd, 2021 at 7:55pm

Curious Aardvark wrote on Mar 22nd, 2021 at 5:49pm:
All throws have their plusses and minuses.

The thing to remember, or realise. is that ALL 'styles' are simply the pre-amble to the release.
And there are only two release types.

vertical and horizontal.

Everything that comes before the throw/release is simply waving your arm about in the hope that it will add extra power/accuracy to the release.

So probably best to re-categorise most throw 'styles' as windup styles.

There are ONLY two THROWING styles :-)


This. You can then be more specific and say "vertical figure 8, diagonal figure 8 etc." But the throw itself is wind up not pitch.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Mersa on Mar 22nd, 2021 at 7:59pm
Here we go again

Letís just settle on the fact that theyíre all throws.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by joe_meadmaker on Mar 22nd, 2021 at 8:30pm

Mersa wrote on Mar 22nd, 2021 at 7:59pm:
Here we go again

Letís just settle on the fact that theyíre all throws.

;D

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Mar 22nd, 2021 at 10:07pm

Mersa wrote on Mar 22nd, 2021 at 7:59pm:
Here we go again

Letís just settle on the fact that theyíre all throws.


I disagree. Kung Fu meteor hammer style might actually be a kick instead of a throw. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52sE2bD4Af8

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by TOMBELAINE on Mar 23rd, 2021 at 3:58am
I am not agree with you.
My english isn't very good but I'll try to explain my idea.
A style is only the result of several factors. The purpose (hunting, war, herding) and traditions will define the style. Question : did the Greeks used the greek style to direct the herd, is this style suitable for keeping the animals ?
Today, we sling for fun and our "traditions" are the search for performance in terms of distance and target accuracy.
Back home, kids used to fish schrimps by hand. It's not very productive but it's a great game. "Great" fishers will tell you that this is not a good technique because they do better, do as this, etc...
We must not fall into this wrong.
If an Indian hides his arms before throwing, I think we can say that it is HIS style even if it is not our way of seeing.
Just my idea.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Kick on Mar 23rd, 2021 at 5:25am

Curious Aardvark wrote on Mar 22nd, 2021 at 5:49pm:
There are ONLY two THROWING styles

Underarm... Truly the most unloved of slinging styles...

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Hirtius on Mar 24th, 2021 at 2:59pm

Kick wrote on Mar 23rd, 2021 at 5:25am:

Curious Aardvark wrote on Mar 22nd, 2021 at 5:49pm:
There are ONLY two THROWING styles

Underarm... Truly the most unloved of slinging styles...


Beginners after discovering a style they like more than underarm:

38yapg.jpg (404 KB | 8 )

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Albion Slinger on Mar 25th, 2021 at 11:52pm

Morphy wrote on Mar 22nd, 2021 at 12:07pm:
Is this for me? If so that would be much appreciated.†


Here's an example.
However, if I were going into battle, I would fold the sides of the cloak even more so that it doesn't restrict the range of motion. I'd also use a penannular brooch to give the pouch more support.
Maybe I'll use it in my next video...
Cloak_pouch.jpg (167 KB | 8 )

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Morphy on Mar 26th, 2021 at 8:03pm

Archaic Arms wrote on Mar 25th, 2021 at 11:52pm:

Morphy wrote on Mar 22nd, 2021 at 12:07pm:
Is this for me? If so that would be much appreciated.†


Here's an example.
However, if I were going into battle, I would fold the sides of the cloak even more so that it doesn't restrict the range of motion. I'd also use a penannular brooch to give the pouch more support.
Maybe I'll use it in my next video...


Wow!! Very nice Albion! I would love to see it in action.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by J on Mar 27th, 2021 at 9:07am
It stays tight to the body too, unlike possibly a loose hanging shoulder bag.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by SerKraus on Mar 27th, 2021 at 10:22am

Kick wrote on Mar 23rd, 2021 at 5:25am:

Curious Aardvark wrote on Mar 22nd, 2021 at 5:49pm:
There are ONLY two THROWING styles

Underarm... Truly the most unloved of slinging styles...


I'm under the impression that underarm falls under vertical. It should encompasses both overarm and underarm.   :)

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Hirtius on Apr 19th, 2021 at 10:49pm
Dead thread resurrection time! Sorry about this.

I recently went back to messing around with underarm, and it's a lot better than I thought. I guess experience with slinging in general helps out. But even in the past, underarm was the first style that I could really control. My opinion spoiled on it because I just didn't use it for so long, and I was thinking on how to do it. I found that it's a lot better (in my opinion) to slightly angle the release. I called underarm unnatural, but I was wrong. Going back to it, it's just as comfortable and fun as other styles, maybe even more so.

I don't think underarm is going to be taking any awards from other styles in terms of things like power or whatnot, but I find that it's easier to use even now. I think it definitely has its perks that we should acknowledge more. Maybe we need an underarm appreciation day or something.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Morphy on Apr 20th, 2021 at 7:58am
One of the most interesting things for me about underarm is the fact you can do a reverse fig. 8 wind up with it instead of the typical rotor. The thing I dont really like about it is the fact that you are limited on sling length for hunting. Very limited actually when hunting real world conditions.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by SerKraus on Apr 20th, 2021 at 8:37am
I believe that underarm is the best beginner style. For people who've never touched a sling in their lives. However, once they nail it down, I move them onto different styles.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Hirtius on Apr 20th, 2021 at 1:16pm
I agree that it's uses are often a bit limited, but they are definitely there. While I was slinging in the forest, I sometimes had enough clearance below and in front for underarm but not enough horizontally for almost any other style. I also don't think sling length is too much of an issue. It works fine for me with a 27 or 28 inch sling, and longer slings will run into other problems anyways.

I also agree that after figuring out underarm people should move on, but I think it might be worth going back. It's so simple that it doesn't take much time to figure it out again, and there might be situations in which it's worth using. Plus, I think it's fun.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Morphy on Apr 20th, 2021 at 1:23pm
Sling length in real world hunting conditions is a whole other thing. Same thing why not everything in the Apache article can be taken at face value. Ive done a good amount of slinging in those conditions and it makes a difference. Take a 28 inch sling and go hunt in knee high grass with the underarm. Definitely creates problems. In concentration if nothing else. It also depends on the area you are in of course.

Under best conditions is not nearly as much an issue though.

EDIT: Vertical wind up/throws work well in certain forest types. It depends on the biome you are in. I prefer figure 8 for largely coniferious forests where as in the live oak scrub forests in chaparrals no style is optimal due to the large amount of twisted horizontal branches.

In high grass rotor/ side arms are better. For game in cover like brush piles, scrub brush or briar patches i like rotor/apache/overshoulder etc. Rotors need to already be in motion before scaring game into the open.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by Tint on Jan 9th, 2022 at 7:08am

IronGoober wrote on Mar 12th, 2021 at 10:48pm:
Morphy, I really don't care if you share it.† It's on a public website after all.

https://youtu.be/AZGlEKCkjic

Not as accurate as you, Jaegoor, but this was after about 30 minutes of practice and I wasn't concerned with being accurate.(I have practiced a few times previously, months ago, too).† As you can see, I'm pretty clumsy getting a new ball reloaded. This serves your point about the extra spin giving you more time to grab another ball, resulting in more fluid motion overall.† However, If I can get setup so I can grab two at once, I think I can get 12-14 shots in 30s if I can cleanly grab 2 at a time from my bag. And Fluidity will likely come from a bit more practice.

But I think that you are right, Tint demonstrated the fastest speed slinging I've seen. I think the video was taken down. I found his other videos and didn't see his fast slinging video.

Yes, I took it down. I was worried protesters in Hong Kong was going to use slings in their resistance...It's back up now.

Title: Re: Unloved Throws-Question. With Poll!
Post by walter on Jan 13th, 2022 at 9:11pm
Under arm/hand is the best for playing sling catch  :)

Slinging.org Forum » Powered by YaBB 2.5.2!
YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2022. All Rights Reserved.