Lately I’ve been wondering if this is possibly the best angle for the pitch on a throw. It’s more powerful and biomechanically sound than a true vertical pitch and it doesn’t have the draw backs of a true side arm in horizontal aiming.

One reason I’ve usually been reluctant to use it is because the angle can change more easily than a true side arm or vertical pitch which can affect consistency. But then Jaegoor and others seem to do just fine with it.

I’ve usually used as close to a vertical pitch in both my Apache and Fig-8. Yet I also love the side arm two spin so not sure if I really have reason to change but I guess I’m just bored. What do you think?

I've found this too. Works surprisingly well with a staff sling.

In kenjutsu it is called kesa giri.  Angled cut.  It's optimal because my hip is well behind the shot.  My stomach works, I work physically.

Very interesting. Hmm. Gives me a lot to think about.

There are a couple of Greek diagonal throws in this https://youtu.be/DHHeQQfFt94

I had to go pull up a video to see what I do.  It's not something I pay much attention to.  From the video I did in slo-mo for testing paracord with and without core strands, it looks like my throw is pretty much in the horizontal plane.

Although I sometimes change the position of my rotor.  Sometimes at the side, other times almost directly overhead in a helicopter style.  The next time I'm out just playing around I might do some recording and see if the rotor position affects the release angle.  I would imagine it would, at least a little bit.

I've explained it before.  The rotor has a crucial function.  It's simple geometry.  Face your target and shoot sidehand.  Then your sling makes a semicircle.  180 ° within this semicircle you have to find the point to solve.  Varying the height is difficult.  If you shoot overhand, your angle is only 90 °.  So only half.  Within this 90 ° you vary the height with the position of your rotor.  If your rotor is facing forward and tilted downwards, you will shoot very briefly at an acute angle.  Turn your rotor horizontally over your head and the shot will fly at head height.  The further back you move your rotor and you will throw great distances.  With a position of 45 ° you will achieve maximum distances.  Set your rotor even steeper, then you will reach a greater height.  It is not unimportant.  If a projectile falls from 200m, it will have maximum impact.  You can also undermine their shot.  The projectile flies forward, but turns backwards.  That leads to an interesting effect.  If the energy is applied forward, the projectile will fall almost vertically.  Some remaining ballistic will remain, but the fall will be almost vertical.  This is devastating in a battle.  But you have to train it.  I tried to film that.  I do not succeed.  You no longer see the projectile with a camera.  Something you should try too.  Shoot an hourglass.  You will learn to shoot exactly horizontally.  It's a very difficult shot.  You need absolute control over your handspin.

With Greek style you can vary the height like wise by the position of your left hand (if you are a righthanded slinger). Your left hand is holding the pouch and stone in front of you. If your hold is forward you shoot at head height. If your hand is facing  downward you can shoot at an acute angle downwards. If your hand is facing upward you can shoot upwards.

A benefit of Greek style is the lack of multiple rotations so can throw heavier stones with light slings accurately, stones which would give a problem if you used a rotor with them and said light sling. And light slings are efficient.

I still use rotor styles, but usually only with medium to heavy slings. A nice feel of the rotor is the fluidity, maybe it adds some power, I am not sure.

I agree with Jaegoor that when there is too much force in the arm it reduces accuracy a lot, for me it is better to have a smooth throw with a 200g stone for accuracy.

Sorry ich halte es für Quatsch. Aber wie sie wollen.

Try it out. The higher you hold the stone in your left hand, the higher you can shoot. Vice versa. No rotor required for it. Height variation with Greek style works very gut.

I don't have to try that anymore.  I don't think it's a style either.  There are only three styles.  Everything else is just a sequence, an excerpt.  There are also reasons why a rotor rotates.  But do as you think.

There are other reasons to use a multiple rotor style, ja.

But height variation is not something that is only possible with multiple rotations or a heli-rotor. This is quatsch.

Shoot an hourglass in Greek.  Then we talk again about nonsense.  What they call the Greek style is just a sequence.  And sorry to say that.  Even if your rotor isn't turning.  You also ask him as described by me.  You can sing whatever you want from me.  As far as I am concerned, they jump backwards and yodel.  😁 I added my mustard.  They don't have to like it.  I don't like their sauce either.

In your hour glass video you shot sidearm, not a diagonal pitch that is described in this thread. So why bring that up even. There is also no reason such a feat can't be performed with Greek sidearm, granted the user is trained with it.

I wrote that why in a previous post.  You're a good Greek-style shooter.  Try it.  It's about angle cautious.  So I'm fully on the subject.

This is interesting. True I am a bit tired so maybe im not reading this correctly but J did you and Jaegoor just come to an agreement on the Greek style?

Thats a glowing recommendation if both of you have decided it has merit considering your differing opinions.

One thing in common?  Rather not.  I just don't give a poopy  Sling is very complex.  The so-called greek style is neither complex, nor healthy, nor aesthetic.  Where are all of the video about absolute accuracy?  I may not know her.  Take a stick.  He'll be much better if you don't want to or can't learn better.  My opinion is personal.  Should everyone do what he wants.  I do not care.  Don't you want to learn from me?  Here you go.  You don't have to.  Are you already a master?  Outstanding.  Show your skills.  Or do they just talk a lot?  As simple as that.

Jaegoor wrote on Feb 28^th, 2021 at 10:17am:

One thing in common?  Rather not.  I just don't give a poopy  Sling is very complex.  The so-called greek style is neither complex, nor healthy, nor aesthetic.  Where are all of the video about absolute accuracy?  I may not know her.  Take a stick.  He'll be much better if you don't want to or can't learn better.  My opinion is personal.  Should everyone do what he wants.  I do not care.  Don't you want to learn from me?  Here you go.  You don't have to.  Are you already a master?  Outstanding.  Show your skills.  Or do they just talk a lot?  As simple as that.

My apologies Jaegoor. Maybe I misread your side or juxtaposed it. J perhaps was more agreeing with you than you with him.

But you bring up an excellent point. If the Greek is accurate why are there no videos of accuracy? Is that the proof we need that its simply not viable, or perhaps not even a real throw. Its a good point and I cant think of a decent counter argument.

Here in America we have a saying "Put your money where your mouth is". In other words talk is just talk until you are willing to prove it. Seems like J in a round about way agrees with you.

Greek style is a very aesthetic style in my view. I have shot at a camera to see what it looks like from the receiving end.  The throw is so quick and swift. It's magical to see.

That it is not healthy or less so than other styles is nonsense. Any style is not healthy and can strain you if you overdo it.

Greek style simply removes the rotor. The rest of the throw is equal. You can adjust height of the shot with your left hand if you are a right handed slinger. You can throw very steep, or very sharp downwards. It's all possible.

@Morphy I agree with Jaegoor that for accuracy it is best to sling at a reduced power level. But that's something many slingers have independently discovered and not something he mentioned in this thread, but I brought up, to show that I don't disagree with him on everything.

I have never seen him mention the advantages of a Greek cast, neither the advantages it has on light sling cords with heavier stones and controlling the pouch orientation, etc, like I talked about recently. Either he doesn't understand it or he does and shoves it away as insignificant, that's also fine by me.

Don't get me wrong, I see the rotor has some unique qualities, but not all are desirable or crucial.

So J when you say adjust the angle with your left(?) hand are you saying something like you kind of hold the pouch pointing at the target so rgardless of how high or low it is it has the correct feel and angle to hit it?

I like the Greek throw with a short sling but I dont find it works well at all with a longer sling (hand to center chest or more). I have found it accurate and quick. A Greek start into a sidearm throw is something I'd like to explore more with the camera to see if I get consistent pouch control and rifled launches.

Morphy, to understand what I am saying you must first understand what Jaegoor was saying about rotor angle and height variation and I am saying that basically the same thing can be done with Greek by varying the height of the hand that holds the stone. But honestly, this phenomenon we are discussing is not fully set in stone either because I can still hit low even when the rotor is behind my back and not horizontal, its the final rotation that matters and the transition that is made to that final rotation. He calls it bullshit and in the end its the same circle and we all get back to do things just like we like to do them

AncientCraftwork wrote on Feb 28^th, 2021 at 3:35pm:

Morphy, to understand what I am saying you must first understand what Jaegoor was saying about rotor angle and height variation and I am saying that basically the same thing can be done with Greek by varying the height of the hand that holds the stone. But honestly, this phenomenon we are discussing is not fully set in stone either because I can still hit low even when the rotor is behind my back and not horizontal, its the final rotation that matters and the transition that is made to that final rotation. He calls it bullshit and in the end its the same circle and we all get back to do things just like we like to do them

To be fair if he called it that it was probably more frustration than anything else. I think everyone here has a healthy respect for all the different styles.

But you bring up a good point. Do we have examples of good slingers using rotors in other positions than what has been debated here? And if so how do we account for that?


David Morningstar wrote on Feb 28^th, 2021 at 12:34pm:

I like the Greek throw with a short sling but I dont find it works well at all with a longer sling (hand to center chest or more). I have found it accurate and quick. A Greek start into a sidearm throw is something I'd like to explore more with the camera to see if I get consistent pouch control and rifled launches.

I love the "idea" of the Greek throw I just have one problem which is its hard for me to get a good feel for the stone with such a short motion. The wind up is like a quarter turn or less. But ya the idea is very appealing. Hold the sling in such away that you can get a shot off instantly.

Try a ~200g stone in a light sling of moderate length. Light sling for me is sub 20 grams. it allows you to feel the stone very quickly in the little time you have. Don't put too much power into the arm like meister Jaegoor always recommends.

AncientCraftwork wrote on Feb 28^th, 2021 at 3:48pm:

Try a ~200g stone in a light sling of moderate length. Light for me is sub 20 grams. it allows you to feel the stone very quickly in the little time you have. Don't put too much power into the arm like meister Jaegoor always recommends.

Great idea J. Is that a tip from Jaegoor? Sounds like good advice. Meister means Master? A fitting title to be sure.

Don't think the former is a tip from Jaegoor. I never seen him recommend very light slings, which I understand because he uses a rotor and 190-200g stones usually (I think.). But the tip of reduced power in the arm is from Jaegoor, and I agree that power moderation is key to accuracy (unless you are Luis) and a way to do this is to use a heavier stone instead, so 200g instead of 150g for example, it should automatically slow one down a bit.

Many people think that I only shoot very heavy slings.  I do not understand that.  In fact, my range is very diverse.  I'll weigh my Cordaillot sling once.  It certainly has a very low weight.  I also shoot a scaled down version of the Balearic sling.  A real esparto sling is also only light.  But it doesn't change my method.  Less force in the arm does not mean that you shoot with less force.  You only concentrate your strength from a different center.  Luis has changed his style over the years.  At least since I've known him.  There was a time when he had trouble with his elbow.  Why?  Because he shot out of his arm with a lot of force.  We talked about it once in spain.  He now shoots much more emphatically from the hip.  With a very strong shot of accent he supports his hips optimally.  I've been preaching that here for years.  But luis is also a real athlete.  That time is long gone for me.  😁 They say that the Greeks are very quick.  Ok let's compare it.  Here, my suggestion.  30 seconds.  We'll see who can get more shots during this time.

Jaegoor wrote on Feb 28^th, 2021 at 4:57pm:

Many people think that I only shoot very heavy slings.  I do not understand that.  In fact, my range is very diverse.  I'll weigh my Cordaillot sling once.  It certainly has a very low weight.  I also shoot a scaled down version of the Balearic sling.  A real esparto sling is also only light.  But it doesn't change my method.  Less force in the arm does not mean that you shoot with less force.  You only concentrate your strength from a different center.  Luis has changed his style over the years.  At least since I've known him.  There was a time when he had trouble with his elbow.  Why?  Because he shot out of his arm with a lot of force.  We talked about it once in spain.  He now shoots much more emphatically from the hip.  With a very strong shot of accent he supports his hips optimally.  I've been preaching that here for years.  But luis is also a real athlete.  That time is long gone for me.  😁 They say that the Greeks are very quick.  Ok let's compare it.  Here, my suggestion.  30 seconds.  We'll see who can get more shots during this time.

This is interesting. As you know I’m a big fan of testing a hypothesis. You up for it J? Sounds like a fascinating idea. The greek throw might just be the one style that can win. What say you my good man?

Jaegoor perhaps you guys could do one test where you see who can get the most shots off in 30 seconds and then do another to see who can get the most shots off with the most hits on a target?

That would really be fun to watch.

Jaegoor wrote on Feb 28^th, 2021 at 4:57pm:

Here, my suggestion.  30 seconds.  We'll see who can get more shots during this time.

In my experience, the efficient loading of the pouch and grabbing a new stone after throwing is the majority of the time to sling multiple shots, the style itself will have little effect. It's the efficiency of the loading that counts.

So, I suggest to prove your point, Jaegoor, YOU try both styles and see how much of a difference there is. And J, can do the same.

However, Just based on the fact that you don't have to rotate the sling before throwing should decrease the time, if only by a small amount.  That is what it did in my experience. I have timed myself with single rotations and greek. Greek style wins by a small amount. But I'm less accurate with Greek style.

IronGoober wrote on Feb 28^th, 2021 at 6:20pm:

Jaegoor wrote on Feb 28th, 2021 at 4:57pm: Here, my suggestion.  30 seconds.  We'll see who can get more shots during this time. In my experience, the efficient loading of the pouch and grabbing a new stone after throwing is the majority of the time to sling multiple shots, the style itself will have little effect. It's the efficiency of the loading that counts.

You’re probably right J. 
(2nd video in series)
https://www.instagram.com/p/CLjj2YoFEqr/

No, that's not how it works.  I definitely don't shoot Greek crap.  And yes it is true.  Proper reloading is crucial.  But you will see that with Greek you start over and over again with your movement.  I've tried this many times.  It's not comfortable.  I shoot my style.  This is an ongoing movement.  So let someone else do it in Greek.  This style is so good.  I use two spins and I'm still very quick with it.  And I can hit with it too.

https://youtu.be/tvW9M7PG9Vo

How is that not how it works?

It makes no sense to compare someone else who is unpracticed at reloading against your practiced skill  reloading to make a comparison between slinging styles. I'm sure you agree with me on that. The question we want to answer is if a no-spin throw has a speed advantage, not how fast someone can reload. Someone who is less practiced at reloading will obviously be slower than you, regardless of style.  Agreed?

However, if you are challenging someone to shoot more than 10 shots in 30s, that is a different.  I might have accept your challenge. 

Edit: Also, I've seen your video, many times. As always, it is very impressive. 

I don't think you understand me.  I don't have to try.  For me it is very clear that they are at a disadvantage with Greek.  They keep interrupting their movement and they lose their target focus.  In addition, you get a powerful problem.  I am not making that up.  This is an insight that I gained through training.  If someone comes up and says that this is not true, then it is just talk at first.  But if he can show me what he's saying, then it's an act.  I have neither regard nor respect for talk.  But if he shows what he can do, then I know that he has not only dealt with it theoretically.  There is a lot of talk here about which style is the best.  There are always pseudo styles brought out and declared to be ultimate.  What I rarely see is mastering simple basic techniques.  And the topic here is winkel behavior.  Which angle is really good and when do I use what and how.  If you want to know what a book is like, you have to read it.  Here you read a line and say what a book is like.  I made my videos to show one way.  And it works very well.  I teach students who achieve very good results after a short time.  It validates my method.  So the system is transferable.  So show what you can do.  That will take us further.

Jaegoor wrote on Feb 28^th, 2021 at 4:57pm:

Many people think that I only shoot very heavy slings.  I do not understand that.  In fact, my range is very diverse.  I'll weigh my Cordaillot sling once.  It certainly has a very low weight.  I also shoot a scaled down version of the Balearic sling.  A real esparto sling is also only light.  But it doesn't change my method.  Less force in the arm does not mean that you shoot with less force.

All fair and true but do you keep slinging your >200g rocks with your light slings or do you scale your ammo down respectively?

And what exactly is a light sling in grams? 30-40 grams is light for some, but that's a medium-weight sling in my view.
Of course for a normal, medium length sling.

Reload speed is all about catching the sling I think
Jaegoor has an advantage over most just on the simple fact he is well practiced.
As for actual shot speed I cannot believe that a style with rotor is faster. I’m talking you have a light that come on as a surprise and then you sling. If You can’t be in a pre rotor motion simply it should be slower.

I think the Balearic sling is an amazing design, very suited to rotor styles. And they are also quick to reload because it's easy to catch the sling due to the nature of the construction. I have many Balaeric slings, 2 are from Luis. But at the end of the day I find myself picking a lighter and simpler sling, it's closer to my philosophy

So being perfectly honest here: As long as someone has practiced the catching technique that Jaegoor has practiced so much its hard to imagine all other things being equal that the Greek would be slower.

It definitely has disadvantages but thats not one of them as far as I can see.

As for potential accuracy, after considering this thread, Im still left wondering why the Greek would be less accurate. Accuracy is merely the ability to be consistent and have control. Consistency can be gained with any throw given the proper set up. Control I think could as well ao long as one tunes everything to that throw.

I can see how rotor angle would could affect shot placement but thats more a consistency issue. As was mentioned some Balearic slingers use rotors behind their back. Other slingers have rotors at all different angles and so long as they do it consistently it seems to work fine.

Just my 2 cents.

The advantage of helicopter style is that you can gain lift and shoot them from above

200g stone,
18.5'' netted sisal sling (11g). wrist loop
Greek sidearm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jo2TCkzImGE

https://youtu.be/OQVLNzYyONs
200g stone

Listen to the noise in the background,hundreds of geese in a field next to me

A nice shot.  Show what you can and you have my respect.

AncientCraftwork wrote on Mar 1^st, 2021 at 9:31am:

The advantage of helicopter style is that you can gain lift and shoot them from above

Ill have to try this again when my femur heals.

J these are great videos man. The setting, the slinging and the sounds. Can we get a view from behind you looking at the target? That would be awesome.

For whatever reason, I was most accurate at the competition with Greek.

Great slinging J!

I like the Greek style's ability to snap-shoot at momentary targets, which seems to me to be a very battleworthy attribute.

Also to be clear I am very jealous of that slinging area. If you wouldnt mind having the next video set in the city dump so I can feign superiority, even if just briefly, i would consider it a personal favor. And not to brag or anything but having Morphy owe you a favor means jack poopy. So keep that in mind.

Nice shots J
Shall we have a QuickDraw challenge??
Reload speed challenge??
Anyone think they can match Master Jaegoor???

Mersa wrote on Mar 1^st, 2021 at 6:09pm:

Shall we have a QuickDraw challenge?? Reload speed challenge??

This was kind of the idea behind the last challenge I posted with slinging something up in the air, and getting another throw off before the first one hit the ground.  I'd be interested in hearing other ideas along this line.

Jaegoor wrote on Feb 28^th, 2021 at 7:10pm:

No, that's not how it works.  I definitely don't shoot Greek crap.  And yes it is true.  Proper reloading is crucial.  But you will see that with Greek you start over and over again with your movement.  I've tried this many times.  It's not comfortable.  I shoot my style.  This is an ongoing movement.  So let someone else do it in Greek.  This style is so good.  I use two spins and I'm still very quick with it.  And I can hit with it too. https://youtu.be/tvW9M7PG9Vo

Jaegoor what distance was this at?

Looks like half a basketball court.
Is this is the fastest sling reload speed video on the internet???

Who’s up for the challenge, new thread.

There was once a shooter here who used this method and was very quick with it.  Unfortunately I don't know his name anymore.  But I would have loved to train with him once.  I mainly use it for an extended warm up. This method is also very useful when hunting rabbits.  If they hit a 200g stone, there will be a lot of bone splinters.  That was the case with my first.  But you don't have to hit a rabbit to kill it.  Shoot them in the ground just before that.  It'll get a shock and just fall over.  Sometimes they still run zig zag.  Then they have to shoot very quickly in a row.

In the video I'm training in a school gym.  The distance is 15m

In archery there is the clout discipline.  The distance is over 100m.  it works with a sling too.  A target circle on the ground can be hit.  But only stones that are in a circle are counted.  So the ground should be soft.  Here you can also shoot quickly.

During my training in fast shooting, I once thought that faster shooting is possible without turning.  But this is not the case.  The explanation is very simple.  You need time to pick up a new stone or ball.  Without turning, the sling stops moving before you have a new stone in your hand.  Maybe it can be trained.  But it's not comfortable.  Personally, this speed is enough for me.  If you can do it faster you will experience my amazement.  😁 Fast shooting is not easier with a Balearic sling.  That is a fallacy.  You also have to open the sling when reloading.  A flat letter is easier.  You can use it much better from both sides

Jaegoor wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2021 at 3:21am:

In the video I'm training in a school gym.  The distance is 15m

Really impressive video Jaegoor. Its inspired me to work on fast reloading.

As already mentioned.  There was once a shooter.  He was shooting on a tennis court with a very large bum bag full of tennis balls.  I can't find him anymore

Jaegoor wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2021 at 7:24am:

As already mentioned.  There was once a shooter.  He was shooting on a tennis court with a very large bum bag full of tennis balls.  I can't find him anymore

I remember that video.  That might take a while to dig up. I'm not sure if it was a video file that was posted to this forum, or a YouTube link...  That would be a good find if anyone feels like searching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5REFW-MdcE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-COD6Mjeb4

Nice slinging
Nice scenery
Good work J

If you keep this up J at this rate im considering making a thread called J's experiments with links to all these threads.

I think at the rate you are experimenting its the only reasonable way to keep all the info together.

Are these the videos you were thinking of Jaegoor?
Found them in the "Full On" thread.
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7BBD90FF21246461

Yes. Gracias  :D

Nice job, AS! I didn't even think the videos were still on YT. Good find.

Also, it looks like Tint did 12 shots in 30 s. That is fast.

Morphy wrote on Feb 24^th, 2021 at 4:19pm:

Lately I’ve been wondering if this is possibly the best angle for the pitch on a throw. It’s more powerful and biomechanically sound than a true vertical pitch and it doesn’t have the draw backs of a true side arm in horizontal aiming. One reason I’ve usually been reluctant to use it is because the angle can change more easily than a true side arm or vertical pitch which can affect consistency. But then Jaegoor and others seem to do just fine with it. I’ve usually used as close to a vertical pitch in both my Apache and Fig-8. Yet I also love the side arm two spin so not sure if I really have reason to change but I guess I’m just bored. What do you think?

I never thought of Jaegoor having a diagonal throw. That's the trouble with slinging styles, it's so hard to classify them. To me, his release is mostly just horizontal, though it does angle a bit.

I consider diagonal to be more pronounced. Practical Paracord has the best example of this. To be honest, I think it throws him off. He's very capable of hitting the targets, but I think the diagonal style makes it hard to judge the first few shots. I find diagonal much harder to control, so I don't like it.

I don't really know how I sling since I've never recorded myself, but I've tried to learn from Jaegoor and it works for me. As a beginner I initially tried more of a true sidearm, but I felt I had a lot more horizontal variance with that. Jaegoor's release (if I'm even doing it right) wasn't too hard to learn as far as slinging is concerned, and it has always given me better accuracy than other styles.

I think a speed challenge would be cool to see. Sorry Jaegoor, but I think "Greek" is definitely faster. I had an easier time being  fast with it, although accuracy was nonexistent. If you try to measure speed and accuracy, then things might be a bit different.

Hirtius wrote on Mar 27^th, 2021 at 10:07pm:

I find diagonal much harder to control, so I don't like it.

I find the opposite is true for me :D Giving it a slight diagonal I've found gives me greater accuracy. That's just what I've found though.

We tried it.  You are not quicker with Greek.  In the beginning they hold three balls.  They are really fast there.  But as soon as they have to grab new ammunition, they get a rhythm problem.  I never trained fast shooting myself.  I always did a routine.  This also makes them faster automatically.  It helps me turn my head off.  It sounds weird.  But it leads to an effect that I know from martial arts.  Your perception changes.  Fast processes run like in slow motion.  You are really becoming aware of them.  It's very difficult to explain.  The diagonal can also be found in martial arts.  With the sword this cut is called kesa giri.  In fact, I use a mix of styles.  In the new video you will see a classic sidehand.  I deliberately shot longer in this video.  You can watch the stabilization of the sling closely.  When Greek feels good to her.  Here you go.  😂 It doesn't feel right to me.  0.03 sec.  Decide whether to hit a target or not.  Without turning, they reduce this period of time again.  I consciously use certain hand positions or positions of the rotor to achieve certain effects.  Luis shows this in a very excellent way in one of his videos.  He practically shoots around the corner.  For shots that have to come absolutely horizontally.  Is sidehand without spin the best.  Your accuracy will improve significantly.  My best hourglass result was four out of five.