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Message started by Rat Man on Feb 4th, 2021 at 12:33am

Title: Covid Vaccine
Post by Rat Man on Feb 4th, 2021 at 12:33am
   I got my first Covid shot last week.  I get the second dose on the 20th.  It's about taking the most logical course of action.  Yes, it's an experimental vaccine and there are risks involved.  If ever there is a time to get an experimental vaccine it's during a global pandemic.  I am more concerned about Covid than the vaccine.
     I actually know people who seriously believe that the vaccine contains Star Trek  type Borg nanoprobes that will be used to track and control the population.  The ignorance and stupidity of those around me is mind numbing and exasperating. Also very depressing.
    The scene at the vaccination site was surreal because the regular army was controlling the distribution.  It was like something from a SciFi movie.  Personally I found the fact that our military was there comforting.  There was no way ignorant moron anti-vaxer protesters were closing this site down.
     I had heard that the day after the shot I'd get a ball in my muscle where I got the needle and my arm would be useless for a while.  Nothing like that happened.  I could feel the shot in my head right away and both roomy Mike, who got his shot at the same time, and I didn't sleep well that night.  Other than that there have been no effects so far.
     So anyway I took the leap and started the vaccinations.  Only time will tell if this was the right move but from my vantage point as a fat old man with asthma it definitely seems the most logical choice.

Title: Re: Covid Vaccine
Post by Kick on Feb 4th, 2021 at 3:00am
Great to hear Ratman! Did you get any fever or flu symptoms? I had an awful time the day after the second shot. First one I just got an achey arm for a couple of hours, second one put me in bed the whole day with a fever. After that one day I was fine though so wasn't too bad. I can tell you, having now cared for COVID patients, it wasn't anywhere near as bad as actual COVID.

Title: Re: Covid Vaccine
Post by perpetualstudent on Feb 4th, 2021 at 12:08pm
some people are afraid of sci-fi horror crap.
distribution site looks like it was from a sci-fi movie.

Not sure you're helping your case there RM ;D


Title: Re: Covid Vaccine
Post by Rat Man on Feb 4th, 2021 at 1:37pm
   I didn't get any fever or flu symptoms with the first shot, Kick.  I'll let you know how I make out with the second.
    ps, the army was courteous and did a very good, professional job of doling out the vaccine.  There was nothing scary or threatening about them and no weapons were displayed.  I just found the army's presence there surprising.  It's not what I expected. 

Title: Re: Covid Vaccine
Post by perpetualstudent on Feb 4th, 2021 at 2:19pm
I was just pointing the juxtaposition in your account. Life's too short not to laugh.


Title: Re: Covid Vaccine
Post by IronGoober on Feb 5th, 2021 at 1:17am
Glad to hear it, RM. I too hope to get vaccinated when there are enough available, but I'm pretty low risk so it's unlikely to happen for a while.

Title: Re: Covid Vaccine
Post by David_T on Feb 5th, 2021 at 8:52am
FYI, By Legal or scientific definition the COVID "VAX" is not actually a vaccine. It is a delivery system to place non-human genetic material into the human cells and as one doctor explains:"Once in the cells, the genetic material interacts with our transfer RNA (tRNA) to make a foreign protein that supposedly teaches the body to destroy the virus being coded for. Note that these newly created proteins are not regulated by our own DNA, and are thus completely foreign to our cells. What they are fully capable of doing is unknown." Real science is not always what the media presents.† food for thought

Title: Re: Covid Vaccine
Post by Morphy on Feb 5th, 2021 at 12:32pm
Really the worst thing from my shot was pain in the arm and an itching sensation as the spines sprouted.

Title: Re: Covid Vaccine
Post by Kick on Feb 5th, 2021 at 3:10pm

David_T wrote on Feb 5th, 2021 at 8:52am:
FYI, By Legal or scientific definition the COVID "VAX" is not actually a vaccine. It is a delivery system to place non-human genetic material into the human cells and as one doctor explains:"Once in the cells, the genetic material interacts with our transfer RNA (tRNA) to make a foreign protein that supposedly teaches the body to destroy the virus being coded for. Note that these newly created proteins are not regulated by our own DNA, and are thus completely foreign to our cells. What they are fully capable of doing is unknown." Real science is not always what the media presents.† food for thought


I hate to break it to you David but if you eat meat you are constantly ingesting proteins that your DNA does not regulate and are completely foreign to your body.

Title: Re: Covid Vaccine
Post by Rat Man on Feb 5th, 2021 at 10:00pm

Kick wrote on Feb 5th, 2021 at 3:10pm:

David_T wrote on Feb 5th, 2021 at 8:52am:
FYI, By Legal or scientific definition the COVID "VAX" is not actually a vaccine. It is a delivery system to place non-human genetic material into the human cells and as one doctor explains:"Once in the cells, the genetic material interacts with our transfer RNA (tRNA) to make a foreign protein that supposedly teaches the body to destroy the virus being coded for. Note that these newly created proteins are not regulated by our own DNA, and are thus completely foreign to our cells. What they are fully capable of doing is unknown." Real science is not always what the media presents.† food for thought


I hate to break it to you David but if you eat meat you are constantly ingesting proteins that your DNA does not regulate and are completely foreign to your body.

   Be that as it may, as I stated in my opening, this is my most logical course of action.  It's not a perfect solution; more like an emergency stop gap measure.  We have a global pandemic with no end in sight from an ever mutating virus.  Maybe my brain will turn to tapioca and I'll grow gills but weighing everything the vaccine seems my best choice at this time.

Title: Re: Covid Vaccine
Post by Kick on Feb 6th, 2021 at 8:12am
https://www.bbc.com/news/54893437

I hate to leave lies uncontested so here's a quick article that debunks some of the nonsense being spread about. I know people will simply explain it away that it's the work of a cabal of peadophilic reptilian Illuminati Satanists but if your already that far gone I doubt I could change your mind about anything...

Title: Re: Covid Vaccine
Post by slingbadger on Feb 10th, 2021 at 6:34am
Got my first shot. no mutations so far.

Title: Re: Covid Vaccine
Post by Oxnate on Feb 10th, 2021 at 9:50am
I love today's SMBC.  Basically pointing out that you're not important enough for them to track with an expensive microchip.

https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/gates

Title: Re: Covid Vaccine
Post by Rat Man on Feb 11th, 2021 at 11:09pm
   Right. And as far as controlling our brains they've already proven that can be done very cheaply with TV.

Title: Re: Covid Vaccine
Post by Kick on Feb 12th, 2021 at 1:19pm

Rat Man wrote on Feb 11th, 2021 at 11:09pm:
† †Right. And as far as controlling our brains they've already proven that can be done very cheaply with TV.

It's incredibly depressing how accurate this is.

Title: Re: Covid Vaccine
Post by Morphy on Feb 12th, 2021 at 8:12pm

slingbadger wrote on Feb 10th, 2021 at 6:34am:
Got my first shot. no mutations so far.


No mutations? Guess im out.

Title: Re: Covid Vaccine
Post by Rat Man on Feb 21st, 2021 at 3:24pm
   I got my second shot last night.  I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop but so far so good.  Roomy Mike got his shot at the same time and he's doing poorly. 

Title: Re: Covid Vaccine
Post by Kick on Feb 22nd, 2021 at 1:17am
Good luck with it. Hopefully you'll have the same reaction as me, a bit of fever and tiredness that should be gone in a day.

Title: Re: Covid Vaccine
Post by Morphy on Feb 22nd, 2021 at 4:58am
Ive not been yet. Not against it but theres no rush at this point. I feel like if anyone wouldve gotten this disease already it wouldve been me.

My Mom got her second one the day before yesterday. She said it caused some type of weird anxiety for a bit but other than that nothing.


Title: Re: Covid Vaccine
Post by JudoP on Feb 22nd, 2021 at 6:25am
Coming out of the UK- reduction in hospitalisation by vaccine:
Pfizer 85%
Astrazeneca 94%


Title: Re: Covid Vaccine
Post by J on Feb 22nd, 2021 at 4:27pm
Israel, the first country where you won't be able to enter a supermarket without it, comes to no surprise to me.

I am not taking it. Said my reasons why.† Don't care if I won't be able to participate in society or be cut off from it all.

Granted, even if you are not a Christian and don't see this as the motb, there's a fair chance messing with the genetics of
90% of the world and making the human body into a drug factory will not lead to good in the long run....so if you don't take it, and stay human 1.0, you actually you have a chance of living the mad max life.

Title: Re: Covid Vaccine
Post by Kick on Feb 22nd, 2021 at 4:38pm
Human body into a drug factory? I wish we could do that! Would make my job a hell of a lot easier. I still have to give them out by hand and convince demented old ladies that they do really have to take their blood pressure medicine and no I'm not trying to poison them, I'm trying to prevent them from having a stroke.

Title: Re: Covid Vaccine
Post by Morphy on Feb 22nd, 2021 at 4:43pm
Technically the human body is a drug factory. You know all those scary drugs people take? All they do is tell your brain to pump out more of certain chemicals.

That being said J. I agree that is scary as hell. I donít want to set a precedent where an entire people are excommunicated from society.

Any unscrupulous leader (arent they all?) could use that once the precedent is set to do...horrible things.

Title: Re: Covid Vaccine
Post by J on Feb 22nd, 2021 at 5:37pm
It's what they planned from the beginning, it is clear for all eyes who can see. People who refuse the shot will be excommunicated from all layers of society eventually. It's going to happen pretty quickly, but at differerent rates of acceleration per country. It's very dystopian, but it's clear. So if you don't want this injection, you start preparing now, but it's late on the clock. I don't even have a smart phone  ;D qr codes? Go to hell. I hope I will find my way into a commune, but if I have to give my life for the One who died for me I will rejoice in that.

Title: Re: Covid Vaccine
Post by Morphy on Feb 22nd, 2021 at 5:54pm
While I dont talk about my faith much I love the Lord too and love the principles that are inspired by him.

I know some see that as archaic but everyone of us chooses to love and emulate something. Might as well go with the person saying "God is Love". Works for me.

However Ive had many, many spiritual experiences in my life. Some...not one person here would believe if I said them.

That being said I think guidance is given in proportion to the need. I dont think anyone who is listening daily will be let to make an unredeemable decision. God is not a robot after all arbitrarily damning people for doing something unaware. God is Love.

Title: Re: Covid Vaccine
Post by JudoP on Feb 23rd, 2021 at 7:27am

J wrote on Feb 22nd, 2021 at 4:27pm:
Israel, the first country where you won't be able to enter a supermarket without it, comes to no surprise to me.

I am not taking it. Said my reasons why.† Don't care if I won't be able to participate in society or be cut off from it all.

Granted, even if you are not a Christian and don't see this as the motb, there's a fair chance messing with the genetics of
90% of the world and making the human body into a drug factory will not lead to good in the long run....so if you don't take it, and stay human 1.0, you actually you have a chance of living the mad max life.


Vaccines started use in 1798 and the principle that underlies them was used even earlier. That's 200+ years of use and literal millions of lives saved, not to mention a truly huge number of nasty illnesses averted.

After all this time and incredible success why would you think that now we are facing a civilisation ending threat?

I'm sorry but this is nothing more than science-phobia and conspiracy thinking. The vaccine will protect you from a virus, this is what they have always done and the process is well understood. There is massive bureaucratic process around carefully testing these vaccines for negative health effects and they have found to be safe.

The problem is for what you say to be true there has to be an absolutely massive worldwide conspiracy hiding the most bizarre things for no conceivable reason, this mandates a web of lies and deception on an unprecedented scale without even one single convincing leak or piece of good evidence appearing. Sounds like a nice movie plot but in reality it's just not gonna happen. If you have ever worked in a corporation or any sort of bureaucratic system, you know that they are FULL of fallible people and poor processes, it's pretty much a rule of life that that many people cannot work together in a completely aligned and efficient way without error.
Also, if you have say, 10,000 people in on something then why no leaks? Hell, the NSA/FBI couldn't even stop Snowden leaking their unethical spying habits and the sort of stuff you are talking about would be WAY more contentious and WAY larger than that (which many people already suspected or tacitly agreed with).

Title: Re: Covid Vaccine
Post by Sarosh on Feb 23rd, 2021 at 5:34pm
If politicians mandated all of us to just even drink milk from the same source I would be highly suspicious the least.
I wouldn't trust even a single hair to them, they would sell it at a discount and I would end up in debt. After that comes a travel ban because I am in debt of a hair.

Title: Re: Covid Vaccine
Post by Morphy on Feb 23rd, 2021 at 6:44pm

JudoP wrote on Feb 23rd, 2021 at 7:27am:

J wrote on Feb 22nd, 2021 at 4:27pm:
Israel, the first country where you won't be able to enter a supermarket without it, comes to no surprise to me.

I am not taking it. Said my reasons why.† Don't care if I won't be able to participate in society or be cut off from it all.

Granted, even if you are not a Christian and don't see this as the motb, there's a fair chance messing with the genetics of
90% of the world and making the human body into a drug factory will not lead to good in the long run....so if you don't take it, and stay human 1.0, you actually you have a chance of living the mad max life.


Vaccines started use in 1798 and the principle that underlies them was used even earlier. That's 200+ years of use and literal millions of lives saved, not to mention a truly huge number of nasty illnesses averted.

After all this time and incredible success why would you think that now we are facing a civilisation ending threat?

I'm sorry but this is nothing more than science-phobia and conspiracy thinking. The vaccine will protect you from a virus, this is what they have always done and the process is well understood. There is massive bureaucratic process around carefully testing these vaccines for negative health effects and they have found to be safe.

The problem is for what you say to be true there has to be an absolutely massive worldwide conspiracy hiding the most bizarre things for no conceivable reason, this mandates a web of lies and deception on an unprecedented scale without even one single convincing leak or piece of good evidence appearing. Sounds like a nice movie plot but in reality it's just not gonna happen. If you have ever worked in a corporation or any sort of bureaucratic system, you know that they are FULL of fallible people and poor processes, it's pretty much a rule of life that that many people cannot work together in a completely aligned and efficient way without error.
Also, if you have say, 10,000 people in on something then why no leaks? Hell, the NSA/FBI couldn't even stop Snowden leaking their unethical spying habits and the sort of stuff you are talking about would be WAY more contentious and WAY larger than that (which many people already suspected or tacitly agreed with).


Awesome! Another chance for me to look looney!

So I do have to disagree with some of this. While you are right about a lot of the assertions you made the fact is that Govts., at least well organized ones, can keep secrets very well when needed. The amount of secrecy that goes on vs the amount that the populace accept as legitimate is pretty shocking really.

One of the big things I disagree with is the idea that one has to actually keep a secret. Thatís not the case at all and not as effective as telling it. Whether something is secret or not is irrelevant. The true end goal is to make sure only a small minority believe it regardless of whether itís in the public or not. Or, and this is not an either/or situation but ďorĒ make those who might believe too afraid to speak out.

So yes, too little information is one way, but even more effectively is too much information. Where there is released way too much information on a subject to where a purposeful apathy is generated in the populace. ďMuchĒ more effective than the former.

My Grandfather was a metallurgical engineer working with a company called the Bendix Coorporation in Kansas City during the time that the Manhattan project was going on. Which was an absolutely massive project involving 130,000 people.† He was involved in some of the non-nuclear research in creating a material (if I remember this correctly) to contain the blast of the bomb for just the smallest of a fraction of a second more than they had so it could use more material effectively.

He told me some interesting stuff before he passed. Let me tell you Judo, they can keep secrets when they really want to lol.

On a different note, many years ago the CIA debuted a heart attack gun to Congress to show one of their assassination devices. It would be very foolish to think this was never used on US citizens as well.

https://youtu.be/Uwy56QTV4cs


2 things to keep in mind. This one is low tech enough for them that they felt comfortable openly speaking about it in the 70ís. Imagine what was too sensitive to show then and imagine what they have now. And again this was in the 70ís.

How many reading this post right now realized this existed? I would bet not enough. Thatís because people are far too busy to verify everything for themself and this one is not even hid. Itís public record.

I say this because you mentioned Edward Snowden. Trust me, if they wanted him to die without proof and with plausible deniability that guy wouldíve been dead a long, long time ago. Not a problem at all.

What if I told someone in the general public that the Joint Chiefs of Staff proposed staging violent extremism in US cities, terroristic attacks on American citizens and just generally planned on killing a bunch of our own people as a way to manipulate the public? Most people today would call me a 911 truther and roll their eyes. Yet no, this actually happened and itís also part of public record. The only reason and I mean the only reason this did not happen, and this was never known about by anyone but the conspirators is because one man named John F. Kennedy said no. Thatís it. One guy made that call and thank God he did.

So nothing as far as power plays would shock me anymore. Iím sure there are ways to sneak things in a vaccine without people knowing, or guide the public reaction to dismiss all such claims without further thought.

Ok..now, having said all that, understand ďIĒ personally think the whole thing is hogwash. It stinks to high heaven. But I need to play the devilís advocate here for J because heís sort of flying solo a bit lately lol. So basically what Iím saying is that while this may be bunk, the ideas that might lead one to believe it are rock solid.



Title: Re: Covid Vaccine
Post by walter on Feb 23rd, 2021 at 8:07pm
First, I will not get vaccinated  for anything. I have been shot up enough. Small pox, polio and tb in grade school. A minimum  of 20 more in the army. I think the first three worked. Don't know what the next twenty were for.
What is lost on me is that if you have been vaccinated , why would you care if I was. Are you not  now immune?

Title: Re: Covid Vaccine
Post by Rat Man on Feb 24th, 2021 at 8:13am
   From what I understand the Covid vaccination won't make you immune.  It increases your chances of survival a great deal when you eventually catch it. Which everyone will sooner or later.  It isn't going away.  It's here and it's a part of us for keeps. 
    Personally I am very grateful for vaccinations.  They have wiped scourges from the earth.  I hate to think what humanity would be right now without them.
    Anyway, I got my second shot on Saturday night.  Sunday and Monday were OK. Just a slightly sore arm on Monday.  By Monday night I thought I was home free.... next to no symptoms for 48 hours.  Tuesday morning it got me.  For me it's not anywhere near as bad as say the flu.  I've been through far worse than this.  Hopefully it'll be over in a day or two.

Title: Re: Covid Vaccine
Post by Kick on Feb 24th, 2021 at 9:00am
Walter, look up herd immunity. High vaccination rates are required to protect those that can't be vaccinated.

Title: Re: Covid Vaccine
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Feb 24th, 2021 at 11:30am
Very few people on this forum have a herd mentality.  Just sayin

Title: Re: Covid Vaccine
Post by Morphy on Feb 24th, 2021 at 4:32pm

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Feb 24th, 2021 at 11:30am:
Very few people on this forum have a herd mentality.† Just sayin


Iíve herd Iím mental but not sure if thatís the same thing.

Title: Re: Covid Vaccine
Post by JudoP on Feb 26th, 2021 at 7:39am

Quote:
Awesome! Another chance for me to look looney!

So I do have to disagree with some of this. While you are right about a lot of the assertions you made the fact is that Govts., at least well organized ones, can keep secrets very well when needed. The amount of secrecy that goes on vs the amount that the populace accept as legitimate is pretty shocking really.

One of the big things I disagree with is the idea that one has to actually keep a secret. Thatís not the case at all and not as effective as telling it. Whether something is secret or not is irrelevant. The true end goal is to make sure only a small minority believe it regardless of whether itís in the public or not.


I disagree somewhat here. Whilst it's not impossible that this would be the case I think that most things that are true will come out simply due to there being some sort of evidence.
Whilst I'm sure there are maybe some cases like you describe I feel like they would be very outnumbered by plain old conspiracy theories.


Quote:
So yes, too little information is one way, but even more effectively is too much information. Where there is released way too much information on a subject to where a purposeful apathy is generated in the populace. ďMuchĒ more effective than the former.


I read about this strategy, it has become associated with one of Putin's advisors I think who I don't recall the name of. When there is suspicion on you instead of denying it flood the airwaves with alternative explanations until nobody can say anything for sure. It's very clever.


Quote:
My Grandfather was a metallurgical engineer working with a company called the Bendix Coorporation in Kansas City during the time that the Manhattan project was going on. Which was an absolutely massive project involving 130,000 people.  He was involved in some of the non-nuclear research in creating a material (if I remember this correctly) to contain the blast of the bomb for just the smallest of a fraction of a second more than they had so it could use more material effectively.

He told me some interesting stuff before he passed. Let me tell you Judo, they can keep secrets when they really want to lol.


Yes but you still found out about them from your granfather  ;)

More seriously, yes they are obviously very good at keeping secrets but I pushback a little on the mythology surrounding them. They are still people just like you and I, someone like Snowden used pretty much freely available tools to evade them (granted he is a very talented professional in the area). Everyone who has gone through a British university has seen the advertisements to apply for MI5/MI6, it's not too outlandish to believe me or one of my friends could have gotten a job there (though less James Bond, more computer jockey...).


Quote:
On a different note, many years ago the CIA debuted a heart attack gun to Congress to show one of their assassination devices. It would be very foolish to think this was never used on US citizens as well.

https://youtu.be/Uwy56QTV4cs

2 things to keep in mind. This one is low tech enough for them that they felt comfortable openly speaking about it in the 70ís. Imagine what was too sensitive to show then and imagine what they have now. And again this was in the 70ís.

How many reading this post right now realized this existed? I would bet not enough. Thatís because people are far too busy to verify everything for themself and this one is not even hid. Itís public record.


Ok, but I wouldn't consider this a conspiracy theory particularly. It's actually confirmed as existing. Some of the alleged targets are a bit farfetched though to say the least, and other factors could make the gun less effective than it's cracked up to being- e.g. you aren't going to get much range at all on a tiny dart that barely leaves a mark, perhaps the poison isn't as untraceable as it's cracked up to being (Novichok was meant to be untraceable but has been traced quite a few times).

Also I would add that there has always been conventional poisoning, which may even be more practical in many situations. There's also setting up suicides, drug overdoses, framing others etc.


Quote:
I say this because you mentioned Edward Snowden. Trust me, if they wanted him to die without proof and with plausible deniability that guy wouldíve been dead a long, long time ago. Not a problem at all.


Well, for sure. Snowden is not in hiding particularly, and he unmasked himself, however there is zero incentive for them to silence him at this point.
Also, the US are not saints but they are not Russia, they don't infiltrate other states to execute defectors or even just critics to sew terror (Russia has done this in the UK many times and usually in a less dramatic way than using high tech nerve agents). Perhaps the CIA would kill to protect their interests and the state, but not just for the hell of it and consequences be damned. The blowback from such executions would be very bad for them, whilst in Russia Putin's popularity is unaffected by such things.


Quote:
What if I told someone in the general public that the Joint Chiefs of Staff proposed staging violent extremism in US cities, terroristic attacks on American citizens and just generally planned on killing a bunch of our own people as a way to manipulate the public? Most people today would call me a 911 truther and roll their eyes. Yet no, this actually happened and itís also part of public record. The only reason and I mean the only reason this did not happen, and this was never known about by anyone but the conspirators is because one man named John F. Kennedy said no. Thatís it. One guy made that call and thank God he did.


Again it's hard to know without being in the room how close this was to realistically happening. In the history of government it would surprise me if the possibility hadn't been at least mentioned by someone but that doesn't convince me that it was ever close to happening. As for 9/11 I simply think it's unfeasible to fake, and unfeasible for the pretty much anyone in the US state to seriously consider on a moral/duty basis and completely devoid of motive.


Quote:
So nothing as far as power plays would shock me anymore. Iím sure there are ways to sneak things in a vaccine without people knowing, or guide the public reaction to dismiss all such claims without further thought.


Again why the vaccine? There's nothing mystical about it. Why didn't they just put it in food, or drugs, or a previous vaccine even? What sort of thing would they put in that has a persistent and desired effect which outweighs the massive disruption? How would they do this without detection? Such claims always seem to ignore the practicalities of things and barely even consider motivation. The objective is not to have a cool movie script it's to ascertain what is actually happening.


Quote:
Ok..now, having said all that, understand ďIĒ personally think the whole thing is hogwash. It stinks to high heaven. But I need to play the devilís advocate here for J because heís sort of flying solo a bit lately lol. So basically what Iím saying is that while this may be bunk, the ideas that might lead one to believe it are rock solid.


No I appreciate the pushback and different views, conversation is good and useful  :D

Title: Re: Covid Vaccine
Post by Morphy on Feb 26th, 2021 at 12:24pm
Can you tell Iím bored? LOL. Huge post incoming. Oh well.

JudoP- ďI disagree somewhat here. Whilst it's not impossible that this would be the case I think that most things that are true will come out simply due to there being some sort of evidence.Ē


*I agree. So let me be a little more clear in defining what a secret is from the practical purpose of what a secret does. Letís define it by looking at the end goal of a secret in the first place. I would suggest the end goal of any secret is to limit as much as possible blow back from actions or words that are conducted by those taking part by obscuring information in a variety of ways. We can define a secret as things that never get out but this is a definition that is too specific for the purposes of a secret itself. Therefore itís more accurate to define a secret as I have above.

This concept people have a lot of hang ups on because they have been conditioned to believe that only through this one meaning does something qualify as a secret when in fact that is not how the intelligence communities looks at it.

And they are very smart to do so. Because itís not the well accepted definition they care about, itís the results. So secrets kept by too much info, too little info, lies mixed with truth or just plain lies all qualify as successful secrets in that sense so long as they obscure and limit blow back.† I shouldíve been more clear. While some secrets do remain secret, at least for the amount of time needed, I do agree that virtually all will come to light eventually.

But how long does a secret have to remain secret for it have been successful in itís end goal? Forever? No, of course not. Again, going back to the purpose, however these goals are obtained it must remain either unbelieved or unable to effect any significant change or blow back long enough that people donít care anymore. If it accomplishes that goal,† even if it only remains secret for a little while, it accomplished itís purpose. Whether itís kept secret because no one knows it or because itís well known but no one cares enough to do anything, which is where we get the term ďopen secretĒ, is irrelevant.

JudoP- ďWhilst I'm sure there are maybe some cases like you describe I feel like they would be very outnumbered by plain old conspiracy theories.Ē

Certainly, but only because I can make up a sentence out of thin air far faster than that assertion can be proven or disproven. So that statement is true but only in the sense that it has to be true. There are no other possibilities.

The amount of conspiracies that have been soundly mocked but ended up being true is pretty impressive. So no, we canít dispute your statement, but then again itís not necessary to dispute.

If you are under the impression that true conspiracies are few and far between I will post a short list of only a few of the conspiracies that have been openly admitted to. Short in the sense that it doesnít begin to touch even a small amount of the total.


JudoP- ďI read about this strategy, it has become associated with one of Putin's advisors I think who I don't recall the name of. When there is suspicion on you instead of denying it flood the airwaves with alternative explanations until nobody can say anything for sure. It's very clever.Ē

And very effective. Generating apathy is much better than trying to keep a secret. Let the person keep the importance of the information from themselves and you donít have to worry about monitoring every single person who knows that secret 24/7. Far more cost effective. Once apathy or disbelief sets in the general public will keep the minority in line for you. Thatís just human nature.


JudoP- ďYes but you still found out about them from your granfather† ;)Ē

*Sure, but I am unable to do anything with said information. If people believe anything I said, they wouldnít care, if people care, not enough of them would care. See, those secrets were 100% effective. The military knows secrets canít be kept forever, but they really donít care. Because again thatís not the end goal. The end goal being to have an objective and to succeed in that objective with as little blow back as possible.*

JudoP- ďMore seriously, yes they are obviously very good at keeping secrets but I pushback a little on the mythology surrounding them. They are still people just like you and I, someone like Snowden used pretty much freely available tools to evade them (granted he is a very talented professional in the area). Everyone who has gone through a British university has seen the advertisements to apply for MI5/MI6, it's not too outlandish to believe me or one of my friends could have gotten a job there (though less James Bond, more computer jockey...).Ē

*Agreed again. They are far from perfect and they screw up all the time. We as a society simply give them an endless amount of chances to do it again.*


JudoP- ďOk, but I wouldn't consider this a conspiracy theory particularly. It's actually confirmed as existing. Some of the alleged targets are a bit farfetched though to say the least, and other factors could make the gun less effective than it's cracked up to being- e.g. you aren't going to get much range at all on a tiny dart that barely leaves a mark, perhaps the poison isn't as untraceable as it's cracked up to being (Novichok was meant to be untraceable but has been traced quite a few times).ĒFair enough this right here is arguably the most important part of the conversation. So the stated effective range is less important but just to get that out of the way it was 100 meters I believe. Pretty darn far when you think about it. Also, poisons do exist that are almost impossible to trace so thatís not necessarily something I would even worry about.

*People often say that if a conspiracy is proven itís not a conspiracy and if it is a true conspiracy it canít be proven. Therefore there is no evidence and we can dismiss the idea. This is circular logic, nothing more. And Iím not accusing you here of espousing this theory on a personal level, itís simply a sentiment that is repeated enough in our Western society to make it a common response to such a conversation regardless of how intelligent the person is. We are all guilty of such pat answers. Itís just a fact of being human.

Now we canít prove a negative but we can do is look historically and see if any theories were roundly scorned and then proven to be true. There are plenty. Therefore we know that at least for as long as necessary for the purposes to be accomplished it is possible. This is one case where the present day info forces you to prove a negative but the historical info proves it as true. So itís very helpful to know of these cases.*

JudoP- ďAlso I would add that there has always been conventional poisoning, which may even be more practical in many situations. There's also setting up suicides, drug overdoses, framing others etc. ď

*You bet, thereís tons of ways to go about it.*


JudoP- ďWell, for sure. Snowden is not in hiding particularly, and he unmasked himself, however there is zero incentive for them to silence him at this point.Ē

*Either because the blow back would be too severe or because, and I personally favor this second idea, because he is Cointelpro.*

JudoP- ďAlso, the US are not saints but they are not Russia, they don't infiltrate other states to execute defectors or even just critics to sew terror (Russia has done this in the UK many times and usually in a less dramatic way than using high tech nerve agents). Perhaps the CIA would kill to protect their interests and the state, but not just for the hell of it and consequences be damned. The blowback from such executions would be very bad for them, whilst in Russia Putin's popularity is unaffected by such things.Ē

*See the list below. I do agree with the sentiment that they donít do things for the hell of it, consequences be damned.*

JudoP- ďAgain it's hard to know without being in the room how close this was to realistically happening. In the history of government it would surprise me if the possibility hadn't been at least mentioned by someone but that doesn't convince me that it was ever close to happening. As for 9/11 I simply think it's unfeasible to fake, and unfeasible for the pretty much anyone in the US state to seriously consider on a moral/duty basis and completely devoid of motive.Ē

*Relevant documents have been released. This plan was fleshed out enough to put on paper and gain the signatures of the highest offices in the Executive Branch besides the President Himself. Once that last signature was obtained the document says planning stages would begin.*


JudoP- ďAgain why the vaccine? There's nothing mystical about it. Why didn't they just put it in food, or drugs, or a previous vaccine even? What sort of thing would they put in that has a persistent and desired effect which outweighs the massive disruption? How would they do this without detection? Such claims always seem to ignore the practicalities of things and barely even consider motivation. The objective is not to have a cool movie script it's to ascertain what is actually happening.Ē

*Because there is nothing in the vaccine. I agree, itís bogus.*


JudoP- ďNo I appreciate the pushback and different views, conversation is good and useful† :DĒ

*As do I, always, because you are an intelligent and worthy debater lol and more importantly never once mentioned Hitler or Age of Empires. Itís amazing how cordial a healthy debate can remain when you donít start it off attacking peopleís intelligence. Of course, I never expected that from you, nor would I ever.*

For the following list, keep in mind personal beliefs do not change whether a conspiracy did exist or not. Whether it was justified is irrelevant since we are specifically talking about successful, admitted conspiracies.

List of verified conspiracies-

1.      CIA attempt to assassinate Castro
2.      Watergate
3.      Gulf of Tonkin
4.      Mkultra
5.      Bohemian Grove being a meeting of the world elite complete with rituals
6.      Bayer pharmaceutical company spreading aids through a blood clotting medicine. Rather than take it all off the market it was simply sold in Asian and Latin America.
7.      Incubator babies thrown on the floor testimony was instrumental in swaying public opinion to engage in the Gulf war. The 15 year old ďwitnessĒ was later proven false and the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador.
8.      Tuskegee Syphilis experiments- injecting unsuspecting black people with syphilis and purposefully not curing it to watch the progression of the disease in humans.
9.      Radioactive iodine experiments injected into pregnant women and newborns to observe the effects
10.      Plutonium injections into unsuspecting individuals which led to cancer and death.
11.      Vanderbilt University which gave 829 unsuspecting pregnant women radioactive substances referred to as ďvitamin drinksĒ to observe the effects on the women and children.
12.      University of California in SF exposed rheumatoid arthritis patients to radiation without their knowledge to obtain data for the military.
13.      The Walter E. Fernald State School in Mass. Gave 73 mentally disabled children oatmeal mixed with radioactive calcium and other radioactive isotopes in order to track how they were digested.
14.      Department of Defense performing non-consensual whole body radiation tests on poor and black cancer patients.
15.      Chemical Warfare Service exposes thousands of US military personnel to mustard gas.
16.      Army personnel given nerve agents and mustard gas against their will and not informed of the danger.
17.      The Holmesburg program. DOW chemical company injected dioxin into 70 prisoners to study the health effects.
18.      Professional tennis player Harold Blauer injected with a mescaline derivative† by the New York State Psychiatric Institute working in collusion with the DOD and the New York State AG to conceal this evidence.
19.      US Army funds Robert Heath of Tulane University† to perform experiments on 42 psych patients and prisoners. They were injected with mind altering drugs, had implanted electrodes in their brain etc.
20.      Army paid 386, 486 to professors to perform experiments with mind-altering drugs on 320 inmates. Although long term health problems were denied this was later found to be false.
21.      ďMonster StudyĒ
22.      Diethylstilbestrol experiments on pregnant women at Lying-In Hospital of the University of Chicago leading to increased miscarriages. None of the victims were told they were part of an experiment.
23.      Operation Northwoods- the aforementioned plan to carry out false flag terrorist attacks on Americans to push the public into war with Cuba. The plan was signed by the Joint Chiefs of Staff. It was then signed by Lyman Lemnitzer and sent to the Depart of Defense but was never implemented due to Kennedyís rejection of it. In the memorandum it says once the signatures are obtained, planning phases will begin.
24.      Project Sunshine
25.      Operation Sea-Spray
26.      Big Tobacco buried evidence of the dangers of cigarettes and paid off doctors to promote them.
27.      50 times the acceptable dose of radioactive phosporus-32 injected into patients with severe burns.
28.      22 elderly patients injected with live cancer cells by Chester M. Southam who had previously done the same to prisoners in the Ohio State Prison. Hospital administration covered it up but eventually it was discovered.
29.      Project Shipboard Hazard and Defense Ė US Army sprayed several US ships with various biological and chemical warfare agents filled with thousands of US military personnel. They were not notified before hand and no protective clothing was given.
30.      US Army released Bacillus globigii into tunnels of the New York City Subway in a study to discover the vulnerability of subway passengers to covert attacks.

This is only a very small fraction of admitted/proven acts that at one time were secretly done and are now mostly ignored by the general populace as ďsomething that happened sometimeĒ usually with the mistaken belief that ďit could happen then, but not now.Ē I could spend the next month documenting all of them that have been admitted but this subject is too large, nor do I have any desire whatsoever to do that lol. Anyways, I donít expect you to read all this but in case you made it to the end. Congrats, you must be almost as bored as I. Lol.† ;) ;D

Title: Re: Covid Vaccine
Post by Albion Slinger on Feb 26th, 2021 at 3:58pm
Throughout all of history, those with expansive rule have always treated the populace as cattle. Why would that be any different now? The truth is that it isn't. Currently the population in the west is in a false sense of trust and security as a result of years of relative peace and better quality of life. That is why those in power can take away our sovereignties and liberties, because we trust that they will be given back, but as we all know once you lose freedom you will ALWAYS have to fight to get it back.
J is not alone, nor is he a crack-pot. I am not surprised by what's happened or what's coming because I've known the plan since march last year. I believe J has already covered that.
In order to trust the injection you have to trust those who will soon be imposing it (because they really really care about your health!). Over my dead body. Once you lose sovereignty over your own body, you have lost all sovereignty.

Title: Re: Covid Vaccine
Post by Morphy on Feb 26th, 2021 at 5:05pm
I want to apologize to all those whoís brains melted when they reached that wall of text.  ;) Send me the hospital bill so I can empathize.

Title: Re: Covid Vaccine
Post by JudoP on Mar 23rd, 2021 at 2:14pm
Since the convo has somewhat exploded I will try and be shorter in the reply (I know, it's a super long delay for such a short reply). To be fair though I don't think we disagree too much on most things.

One thing I will say is if we are assessing the validity of conspiracy theories we should separate 'conspiracy' from 'conspiracy theory' as I would expect a lot of conspiracies actually were not known or theorized about until they were simply leaked or released. I would say it's much too charitable to credit the predictive power of conspiracy theories to known conspiracies today. In fact I'd guess most actual conspiracies today are things that nobody actually knows about and at the same time almost all conspiracy theories are just plain incorrect.

Actually one (on the face of it) mundane, but potentially far more dangerous thing I do worry about in this area is surveillance. The sheer amount of data that government agencies in your country and mine harvest and keep. With this they have an enormous amount of coercive power and have all but waived the right to privacy (a human right btw), but, nobody seems to really care that much... There's no conspiracy thinking needed here, a ton of what they do is straight up confirmed. It's like Hitler got the cheat codes to Age of Empires and people are just not even bothered.

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