I have realised that pretty much any question asked has been answered..... Twice !
However, I have yet to find any reference to sling bullets made by a brick maker.
Has anyone researched standardised sling ammo made by a brick maker ?

Fired clay ammo has been made by some of us, it is very hard and survives impacts well

Just don’t take the brick maker’s straw away unless you want your crops to be devoured by a plague of locusts  ;)

Just lateral thinking....... If Romans used bricks,  ...... We know they did, and if Romans wanted industrial (army size) quantities of glandes it follows you would give the contract to people skilled in the use of those materials. Today, there are brick makers who make "specials" eg bricks made to order in special sizes or shapes for a particular building. You see where I'm going or please tell me I'm mad !........

Did Romans also use smaller lead glandes? Sling history in not my forte. Seems crazy to use big bricks when the logistics of carrying that much heavy ammo for hundreds or thousands of slingers to use in battle. Not doubting you, just curious about their reasoning.

And no you’re not crazy. Right or wrong it makes sense.

Ok, if I'm not crazy I will stick with my usual odd, and return to the theme of standardised ammo for sport or data collection.
I know there are as many opinions as slingers, but in general is there any demand for standard ammo in a range of sizes ? 

Everyone likes different weights of ammo. In the Balearics, where there has been plenty of time for such a standard to emerge if it were natural or necessary, everyone provides their own ammo and it is all different. All the stones are marked and when they collect at the end of a round, they all swap ammo around until everyone has their own stones back.

David oder sie stehlen dir deine steine wenn sie besser sind. 😂
Ich selbst habe schon sehr viel Munition hergestellt. Auch aus Ton. Oder beton. Ich schieße sehr viel. Und es lohnt sich fur mich nicht. Der aufwand ist zu groß.

Good point, well made Jaegoor.
DM, I don't think I could muster an argument, rox will always be the default ammo.
However, there seems to be a lot of thread time spent on physics, maths and data collection as well as, in the past, sport slinging.
I have yet to find a thread on eliminating variables, hence my question on standardised ammo.
Cheers.

Standardized ammunition is good.  Most of the Balearic Islands don't want it.  Paying money for something that breaks.

Jaegoor wrote on Feb 1^st, 2021 at 8:19am:

David oder sie stehlen dir deine steine wenn sie besser sind. 😂 Ich selbst habe schon sehr viel Munition hergestellt. Auch aus Ton. Oder beton. Ich schieße sehr viel. Und es lohnt sich fur mich nicht. Der aufwand ist zu groß.

Du musst sie ja nicht zerdeppern, ich arbeite gerade an einer Zielscheibe mit Loch als Diane.

xud9a - call me zud 👍 wrote on Feb 1^st, 2021 at 8:49am:

I have yet to find a thread on eliminating variables, hence my question on standardised ammo. Cheers.

Your wish is my command.

https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1527869492/12#12

Morphy wrote on Feb 1^st, 2021 at 11:19am:

xud9a - call me zud 👍 wrote on Feb 1st, 2021 at 8:49am: I have yet to find a thread on eliminating variables, hence my question on standardised ammo. Cheers. Your wish is my command. https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1527869492/12#12

Xud, I've started working on a mega-post that will eventually make its way over to the maths section.  Instead of trying to exactly model the physics of the sling, I plan to take an approach that has never been done on this forum before (to my knowledge)... I will start with a stupid simple model, analyze it until the model fails to explain what we see in the real world.  Then I will introduce a new model that is slightly more complex to specifically address the failures of the previous model.  Rinse and repeat...

The goal is not to arrive at an exact mathematical model of the sling but instead to build an intuition about slinging and how theory can help improve your understanding of it even when the theory is less than perfect.

Stay tuned.  I might get around to posting this monster treatise some time in the next decade ;)

How happy I am to be allowed to play with the boys with the big brains. Hubert, often the simplest ideas are the best  ;)
Morphy, thanks for the link, an eye opener and I note in it another reference to slinging as an olympic sport !!
NooC, taking the message out of big reports is what I was born for ... bring it on  ;D
I was taught; the essence of the scientific method is replicability.

Would it therefore follow that giving 100 slingers 10 standardised slings (in different types and lengths) with standardised ammo (brick glandes, or otherwise) and asking them to sling at targets (balearic or otherwise) at set distances and recording the results (painstakingly) would produce a huge amount of useful data  which could produce unexpected results, an evidence base for the olympic bid  ;D and anomalies which could be relevant to producing working hypotheses ?

AND, yes I know I am building uncosted castles in the clouds but, for me, the answers could be a starting point to a proposal.

Cheers.

Sorry, Morphy, your point about carrying sling ammo is valid ....but if you were defending a built environment there would be a resident brick maker. To me Curious Aardvarks 3D printed clay glande roller is genius level insanity. Put a carpenter with a gouge chisel or even an adze in front of a pair of decent planks and in about an hour you would have a glande roller turning out around 20 glandes ready for firing (in the kiln) every 2 to 3 minutes. There are some in the british museum collection.

xud9a - call me zud 👍 wrote on Feb 1^st, 2021 at 5:55pm:

but if you were defending a built environment there would be a resident brick maker.

Or a mason and a quarry.

Oh didn't realize you were specifically talking about defending a siege. That's different. Different rules apply I guess.

Joe Meadmaker,  ouch, note to self, precision of language required ! 🤗
Morphy, not seige specifically but also a valid point 👍

Now granted I don't know much about history but is it logistically reasonable for an ancient army to haul 45 tons worth of bricks just for their slinging regiment? Seems like a good way to die. Again you might be completely right here Zud. Not trying to be contradictory but my goodness that's a lot of weight for just one very specific purpose.

Jeez Morphy, 45 tons, that's specific. Was that the SWL for a Roman ass ?  🤪🤪🤓
Being heavily sidetracked from my original point......all I'm suggesting is, that if you were  in any proximity to a brick maker and he was either making or, ordered to make glandes why would you not have at least a few in your slingers bag ?
Similarly, if there is a serious desire to standardise sport slinging or to get a solid data set then I am offering the concept for discussion 👍

Standardized ammo would be interesting. I think we have discussed it and as usual all formed different answers on the subject haha.

So I'm terrible at math but let's do a scenario. Say we have a 3000 strong regiment for a big army. I'm sure the Persians could've easily put that many out at one time. Many others as well. We are talking bricks here so I went 8oz to be conservative. Bricks are generally a lot more but eh. That's a heavy shot and realistically would do serious damage.

Let's say each slinger gets 60 shots. We all know how fast 60 shots go. They would be out in no time flat but again trying to stay conservative.

8 x 60= 480oz times 3,000 slingers = 1,440,000 ounces. Divide by 16 to get pounds=90,000 pounds divide by 2000 equals 45 tons.

Not scientific but realistic at least. Well logical, the realism is what I'm struggling with. But again I'm not offering any real facts here. Now assuming they weren't  cavemen I'm sure they realized the huge power benefit of egg shaped ammo over broken stone, jagged stone. When life is on the line that extra distance can mean living.

So here's where we see just how conservative I'm being. Ancient armies did indeed have blacksmiths and weapons makers by the cartloads following them to keep the supplies up. Fletchers would follow medieval armies constantly churning out arrows. A process that is much faster than shaping stone with crude hand tools.

One would have to have at least an equivalent weight of unprocessed stone to be constantly making new ammo as the old stuff gets thrown and either broken,  retrieved or lost due to things like retreat and what not.

So for an army big enough to have that many slingers we are talking far more than 45 tons if we are looking at realistic slingers ready at any moment for battle. Let's say they each have a measly 30 shots that's still 22.5 tons not including unprocessed stone.

So anyways over thinking this by a fair measure but it's a fun thought experiment and as someone who's made quite a bit of primitive weapons over the years I am really having trouble understanding.

On the other hand it does explain perfectly why certain armies were so fond of extremely light lead.

I knew I was playing with the big brains !
My apologies for lack of clarity.  I titled the thread brick bullets and thought that I was being clear that I mean glandes made from clay and fired in a kiln NOT to use whole, or even half bricks as bullets.

Ahh see lol. You got me! I concede my good sir! Honorable battle!

Nice one Morphy, I can see I'm going to feel at home here 😇☕

xud9a - call me zud 👍 wrote on Feb 1^st, 2021 at 10:14pm:

Nice one Morphy, I can see I'm going to feel at home here 😇☕

I'm glad you are here Zud. This is as good a place as any to call home on the net.

That's the nicest thing anyone has said to me in a long time. I'm going all mushy inside    8-)

https://museum.wales/collections/online/object/1ffdbeda-3d88-3825-ac01-904705c41a49/Roman-ceramic-sling-shot/?field0=string&value0=sling&field1=with_images&value1=1&index=4

Roman ceramic sling-shot.
Most weight's I have seen on online museum collections are ~50-60g

Morphy's right.  The effort is considerable.  Even if they have a shape.  Burning would again be a considerable effort.  Better to just dry the ammunition.  You can use the material over and over again.  I once used 60kg of lead to make glandes.  That was a lot of work.  There is an old tower in the city of Soest.  There, 25,000 crossbow arrows were found in an old cellar.  It was the ammunition for a few hours.

Greetings Albion, isn't it a thing of beauty, many more in the online collection of the British museum. Jaegoor, earlier in the thread I give my arguments as to how a brick maker and his lad could turn out 5000 bullets a day.
In fact, looking at the ceramic bullet in Albion's post it clearly shows dark staining identical to over baking on bricks  through the ages.
If we, as sporting slingers, were looking for a cheap, standard ammo then baked clay bullets made by a brickmaker I.e. brick bullets could be an option. Cheers. 🤓

I'll try to explain again.  The idea is good.  But not new either.  Certainly you can make a lot of bullets with good equipment.  But that wouldn't be cheap.  The Balearic Islands tried.  They have many workshops on the islands.  It did not work.  For me personally, clay is too easy.

David Morningstar wrote on Feb 1^st, 2021 at 7:47am:

Everyone likes different weights of ammo. In the Balearics, where there has been plenty of time for such a standard to emerge if it were natural or necessary, everyone provides their own ammo and it is all different. All the stones are marked and when they collect at the end of a round, they all swap ammo around until everyone has their own stones back.

Thanks Jaegoor, respected but contrary opinions regarding the balearics. I also explained the moulding kit would be two worked planks. Hardly hi tech kit !
So .... What I'm driving at is
A) is there a desire for we as a community to move to an international standard for sport slinging ?
B) what would those standards be ? I am simply asking if anyone has, or is there a desire to investigate standardised sport ammunition i.e. brick bullets or something else ? Cheers  🤓

xud9a - call me zud 👍 wrote on Feb 8^th, 2021 at 7:00pm:

David Morningstar wrote on Feb 1st, 2021 at 7:47am: Everyone likes different weights of ammo. In the Balearics, where there has been plenty of time for such a standard to emerge if it were natural or necessary, everyone provides their own ammo and it is all different. All the stones are marked and when they collect at the end of a round, they all swap ammo around until everyone has their own stones back. Thanks Jaegoor, respected but contrary opinions regarding the balearics. I also explained the moulding kit would be two worked planks. Hardly hi tech kit ! So .... What I'm driving at is A) is there a desire for we as a community to move to an international standard for sport slinging ? B) what would those standards be ? I am simply asking if anyone has, or is there a desire to investigate standardised sport ammunition i.e. brick bullets or something else ? Cheers  🤓

I want to see slings in the Olympics one day. Not gonna happen anytime soon but one can dream.

xud9a - call me zud 👍 wrote on Feb 8^th, 2021 at 7:00pm:

David Morningstar wrote on Feb 1st, 2021 at 7:47am: Everyone likes different weights of ammo. In the Balearics, where there has been plenty of time for such a standard to emerge if it were natural or necessary, everyone provides their own ammo and it is all different. All the stones are marked and when they collect at the end of a round, they all swap ammo around until everyone has their own stones back. Thanks Jaegoor, respected but contrary opinions regarding the balearics. I also explained the moulding kit would be two worked planks. Hardly hi tech kit ! So .... What I'm driving at is A) is there a desire for we as a community to move to an international standard for sport slinging ? B) what would those standards be ? I am simply asking if anyone has, or is there a desire to investigate standardised sport ammunition i.e. brick bullets or something else ? Cheers  🤓

I dont think a standard ammo would work except that perhaps its all stone or clay or what not. As for weight no there is simply too much difference in body types and slinging styles.

Sling at olympia?  Please do not.  Olympia is a juggernaut today.  It's about money.  Not a thought.  Everything will be regulated.  Your shoes too.  Or which fiber your sling may be made of.  I can respect.  But I don't have to.  Because you should also respect the Balearic Islands.  A rule of the Balearic Islands, no man-made ammunition.  Another rule, no plastic.  Figure 8 is also normally not welcomed.  Much of what happens internationally is tolerated, but not necessarily welcomed.  So where is the respect?  Hubert once had pretty good clay glands.  They were burned too.  And some could be used multiple times.  About the cost.  You have to buy good clay.  You rarely find it just like that in the landscape.  And if they are not allowed to promote on a large scale.  Even a large manufacturer will be paid for this.  Burning also costs.  Time, energy and manpower.  You need to store the glandes.  And then you have to.  still send.  How big should a pack be?  One hundred, two hundred or five hundred rounds?  We're not talking about soft air balls.  And then they also want to earn money.  So with all due respect.  What should the whole wihl cost?

The best sling stone maker, ask the Palestinians

---

Serkraus, dreams are good, without the dream where does the drive come from ?
Olympics, why not. But internationally recognised sport slinging would have to come first.
Paleolympics have already been held so Jaegoor, I take your point about IOC and agree, what's  wrong with an alternative wether that already exists or not ?
As to your questions about cost etc ? I do not know. But unless and until an enquiry is made no one can know.
Things I do know, bricks are made to a tested standard, if they weren't, buildings would collapse.
There is a European standard for bricks, compressibility, weight, size etc.
America too has standards and testing.
To my mind it follows that if bricks are tested to a standard then glandes made from the same material fired in the same way would meet that standard.
Once a standard is agreed, world wide replication becomes easy with manufacturing done close to delivery point. The same lorry which delivers bricks could and would deliver glandes for a similar distribution network.
So yes cost is a huge factor but without agreeing it should be done where do we start ?
Once something is known targets and objectives can be set but without dreams, ambition and desire nothing will be achieved.
Golf balls, tennis balls and rusty balls are already ammo standards.

My soap box has now collapsed, I am whimpering on the floor and I'm off outside to sling some snow in a seatbelt sling   :o    :-X        :'(

J,   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D 8-)

A form of slinging is in the olympics already, it is called hammer throwing
The only sling aside from that I can see work in the olympics is the bola, specifically the bola perdida (bola with only 1 weight).
It elimates all the variables of different sling types (uniformity.) and that way you can ensure the only variable is the athlete

J, a fascinating thought and something I was intending to try.... In spring. However, if there was an appetite for sport slinging surely pursuing  a single ambition would be more sensible.   🦄

We have already tried to take part in the palaeo Olympics.  That was refused.  Reason.  There are no historical finds from this period.  Only atlatl, jevelin and bow.  But I was able to demonstrate and introduce the sling several times at this event.  You can of course use clay glandes.  I do this occasionally too.  But I shoot about 250 to 300 rounds per training.  Four times a week.  I would have mountains of rubble that I would have to dispose of again.  Which also costs money again.

Jaegoor, I'm sorry, I have built a new soap box and now have a megaphone  🤓
I take your point about rubble and I am not asking you personally to change anything you do.
What I am trying to find out is if there is an appetite for international sport slinging and if there is how would it be progressed ?
As to rubble, there are 2 types of brick bullet I have in mind. In the UK known as concrete commons and silica brick.
The commons are very fine concrete mix and used as footings i.e. underground and so have very high compressibility.
The silica brick is a lot lighter but again very fine grain and mainly used for industrial buildings due to good wear characteristics.
So.......... Unless someone was slinging at a concrete wall I'm fairly sure either of these would be repeatedly reusable.

It's simply a case of more options opening up if there was a general desire to investigate. It is really easy to find reasons NOT to do something.
👍🖖💐

There is another way to make sling stones not so often discussed
That is by chisel. It goes quick when I use soft rock. I use broken street stones.
I made a good dozen of these in the past. Wear eye protection if you chisel.
Don't sling these against a steel back stop, they can break.
these are a pound

---

They look fun to hurl at targets.
If they were good enough for the Assyrians, then they are good enough for us!

---

Yes, I am quite amazed at the velocity possible even with such heavy stones, they might not fly very far as a a smaller stone, but they stay on course, punching through the air effortlessly. I find that a wrist loop and a full fist tab helps a lot to handle them. A wrist loop I now use because on thinner cords it does not seem to interfer with me holding the release tab. It does help a lot to control heavy stones in my experience. I can feel the force of the stone dispersed over the wrist and hand instead of on the fingers.

J., Different levels of insanity for different people 🤓🤣👍   Your sling looks like aluminium with end caps !! What is it ?

A.S. look to the future with an eye on history !  Of course, plenty good enough for you, I and all but no relation to the question I asked 🖖  cheers.

It's an experimental ultralight sling. The pouch is ducttape. I am trying to determine how many layers is enough and how long it will hold up. I think it's stronger than the thin couch leather I have used before.

Ok, diverting myself. What about layering in a fine nylon mesh eg, fruit netting, either garden type or the mesh bags fruit or nuts  are sold in (at least they are in UK). This could add strength and torsional stability !

So, back to the topic. I am getting the impression there is a small interest in sport slinging above that in the Balearic isles but not enough to be worthwhile making enquiries of brick specials makers for standardised ammo.
Going once ?

If we are going to make a standardised commercial ammo I’d say it should be machined steel or tungsten, just saying!!
Clay is a DIY solution

Mersa wrote on Feb 13^th, 2021 at 6:45pm:

If we are going to make a standardised commercial ammo I’d say it should be machined steel or tungsten, just saying!! Clay is a DIY solution

I wonder how rubber glandes would perform. What rubber is dense enough to allow long flight while also being somewhat safe. I’d love to have non-lethal glandes that can fly far.

I think it was Cityslinger that looked into the possibility of getting a company to make a batch of cast-iron glandes.
Personally I think that would be better than clay projectiles.

Thanks so much people.
I really thought this thread was going to expire.
So we now have the following suggestions for thought and investigation into standardised ammo for sport slinging ;

Machined Steel.
Machined Tungsten.
Rubber.
Cast iron.
Clay.
Brick.

I am going to be controversial and add lead to the list, can't think why but I'm sure I heard it could be used 🤓😂.


Machined Steel.
Machined Tungsten.
Rubber.
Cast Iron.
Clay.
Brick.
Lead.

So any further thoughts or nominations please ?

We have also poured glandes from old Coke cans.  Or made of zinc.  Weights for car tires are made of zinc.

Jaegoor, many thanks, so adding cast aloominum and cast zinc.

Of course, if it's coke cans it can't be aluminium 😂😂🤣.

So, 9 candidates now;

Machined Steel.
Machined Tungsten.
Rubber.
Cast Iron.
Clay.
Brick .
Lead.
Aluminium
Zinc.

Any more suggestions please ? 

Hey while we’re at it add gold and platinum to the list

What about plastic? ;D

What about Wood.if it's dense hard wood it could cause some damage,and it should be pretty easy to make for anyone with a Lathe.

Many thanks Guys.
Mersa, I think it's fair to say all the materials on the list so far are readily available. If you can provide proof of a large,  cheap supply of said materials they can be added to the list.
Serkraus, I was having a quick look at rubber last night and that word, like plastic, covers such an incredible range of polymers it's mind bending. So, I'm going to add an s to rubber (stop sniggering at the back) and do the same to your suggestion.
Greenjay, wood is good 🤓, I don't know if the CSL standard covers density and compressibility but it's a way to go.
👍👍👍👍

List as it stands;

Machined Steel.
Machined Tungsten.
Rubber(s).
Cast Iron.
Clay.
Brick.
Lead.
Aluminium.
Zinc.
Plastic(s).
Wood.

I was aiming for 10 but legs 11 will do.

Any materials scientist, quality management  or production /procurement specialists prepared to offer input please ?

Cheers.

How about pykrete?

All it is is ice with 14% sawdust or paper fibre mixed through. Much stronger than ice and melts a lot slower too. Combination of relatively light and tough might make ammo less likely to shatter provided you don't shoot at rock solid targets.

Copper?

Do you want a standardized sport?  First start with the weapon.  With the sling.  Find a manufacturer of sports equipment and develop a sling with them.  A basic model.  For camping or sports.  When they have done that, there will gradually be various ammunition suppliers.

I've read somewhere about tungsten-plastic mix replacement for lead bullets, densities vary with the tungsten content. maybe there is also ceramic-tungsten mix.

Stone can also be shaped, probably more easily than tungsten.

Jaegoor wrote on Feb 15^th, 2021 at 2:15pm:

Do you want a standardized sport?  First start with the weapon.  With the sling.  Find a manufacturer of sports equipment and develop a sling with them.  A basic model.  For camping or sports.  When they have done that, there will gradually be various ammunition suppliers.

I already have a basic model and production capacity. I can make 30 leather-and-paracord slings in about one hour at my kitchen table. It would be simple to scale that up to make thousands if there was demand. What’s missing is the marketing. You need customers who want to buy the slings.

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Feb 15^th, 2021 at 3:04pm:

You need customers who want to buy the slings.

we need more wolves then all shepherds will want to buy slings.

Sorry  30 slings on the kitchen table in one hour.  😁 I am sure that I have different quality requirements.  I've seen slings for kids on Amazon.  All I saw was junk.  I wouldn't buy any of these.  None of that would appeal to me.

Sarosh wrote on Feb 15^th, 2021 at 3:23pm:

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Feb 15th, 2021 at 3:04pm: You need customers who want to buy the slings. we need more wolves then all shepherds will want to buy slings.

All I’m saying is that if someone wants 1000 slings made in a month or two, I think I could make that happen at a reasonable price that is profitable for everyone.  If you account for the design and tooling costs, a major manufacturer will probably be more expensive unless you are making 10,000 of them... even if you make them in China or Vietnam. 

There’s no need to get a sports manufacturer involved unless you think a specific brand adds value or attracts more customers. Obviously if you can get Nike or Underarmor to sign on... go for it! If you just need a lot of slings made fast and inexpensively without feeling “cheap”, just give me a call.

@Jaegoor: You’ve said yourself that the slinger is much more important than the sling, but you also use some of the most amazing slings on the forum. I would be very curious to hear what you think about an inexpensive sling that was designed for mass production. Can I send you one?

Jaegoor wrote on Feb 15^th, 2021 at 3:37pm:

Sorry  30 slings on the kitchen table in one hour.  😁 I am sure that I have different quality requirements.  I've seen slings for kids on Amazon.  All I saw was junk.  I wouldn't buy any of these.  None of that would appeal to me.

Let me send you one and then tell me what you think Jaegoor.  It will never compare to a 24-strand fistail braided Balearic sling, but considering that I can make hundreds of them in the time it takes you to make a single sling, I think you will find that it exceeds your expectations.  Here's what StoneHuevos said about his SITH sling.  He picked a custom cord color, but the rest of it was my standard design:


StoneHuevos wrote on Dec 28^th, 2020 at 2:24pm:

JUST RECEIVED MY SITH-MASS GIFT FROM NOC (idk how to tag him here) I  knew I would love it, but my mind is blown! Such craftsmanship! LOVE THE COLORS!

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Feb 15^th, 2021 at 4:17pm:

Let me send you one and then tell me what you think Jaegoor.

I have to say, I would love to hear that response.  Maybe see a video...  :)

Well I guess Jaegoor decided it’s not worth responding? 

@Jaegoor, please don’t assume it’s low quality just because my sling is designed for easy manufacturing. I use high quality materials, and my personal sling has already withstood 30-100 throws per day for about a year. I had to replace the release cord once recently when my child left the sling outside and the dog chewed on it. Other than that, it’s never given me any trouble. Obviously it will wear out faster with jagged rocks than smooth stones or rusty balls, but if it does wear out, a replacement sling will behave just like the old one. This sling is not a cheap kid’s toy that will break. I even lost one in a lake one time, and when I recovered it two hours later, I continued to use it for several months before I gave it away to someone else who is still using it.

The leather is reinforced with metal eyelets where the cords attach, and the leather is folded over on the release side to distribute the load better across the pouch. It can handle dirt and mud. You can replace the cords easily if they ever do wear out, and you can change the length of the cord easily too.

Jaegoor, you don’t have to spend 30 hours braiding a sling to make a quality sling. I hope you give me a chance to prove that to you.

Jaegoor you are the World Champ last I checked. Multiple times over for that matter. NOOCs slings may be quickly made but they are quality slings and the speed and cost would be great for getting massive amounts of people into slinging quickly. Once hooked they will surely look up the best slinging method and most effective style and come across your work. Then they will upgrade.

You and your work in the community are literally the best reason for a person to upgrade their sling to one of your highest quality weapons, but you cant expect kids and new slingers alike all over the world to start out with the best style and sling. They need something accessible to start on that works reasonably well.

You would be doing a great service for the slinging community by at least trying it and judging it by the lower standard of a quality, mass produced sling.

Trust me, no one anywhere is going to compare it to your slings. Yours have a place but so do NOOCs. I hope you will consider it.

Please do not get this wrong.  Of course it is clear to me that a beginner will not shoot high end sling.  And I also know that you can make a sling very quickly.  Even with the simplest means.  I also like to look at such a sling.  I even shoot them.  But I don't think it will surprise me.  There is actually a historical sling from Haithabu.  This is built very quickly.  But is that what I imagine  The answer is no.  I have a particular model in mind.  They are made of synthetic fiber.  It would be very durable and also very attractive.  I think that something like this is no longer a problem on a programmable loom.  I've been pursuing this idea for some time.  We'll see what comes out of it

Jaegoor wrote on Feb 16^th, 2021 at 7:02pm:

Please do not get this wrong.  Of course it is clear to me that a beginner will not shoot high end sling.  And I also know that you can make a sling very quickly.  Even with the simplest means.  I also like to look at such a sling.  I even shoot them.  But I don't think it will surprise me.  There is actually a historical sling from Haithabu.  This is built very quickly.  But is that what I imagine  The answer is no.  I have a particular model in mind.  They are made of synthetic fiber.  It would be very durable and also very attractive.  I think that something like this is no longer a problem on a programmable loom.  I've been pursuing this idea for some time.  We'll see what comes out of it

Ahh see. That really is kind of brilliant. I’ve thought of using a braiding machine to make complicated braids more easily but never even considered a programmable loom. I am both intrigued and horrified.

I’m sure you can understand both sentiments. It allows so many more people to have a beautiful, highest quality sling but an item that is handcrafted has a certain sentiment that is impressed on it by the maker. Yes I am silly but this is how I see it. Either way, really an interesting idea.

So here’s an idea from me...NOOC sends you one of his slings. You hold onto the package and if some day you feel like trying it out for a couple throws it takes all of 30 seconds. Especially with how fast you reload.  ;D ;D

You could try it one day and do a huge favor for one of our members. A member who has sent many people slings just to help out and be nice. It would be a really nice thing to do. I hope you will consider this option. It will cost you nothing but a few minutes of your time. Anyways, that’s my sales pitch! Looking forward to seeing your post on the programmable loom!

Jaegoor wrote on Feb 16^th, 2021 at 7:02pm:

Please do not get this wrong.  Of course it is clear to me that a beginner will not shoot high end sling.  And I also know that you can make a sling very quickly.  Even with the simplest means.  I also like to look at such a sling.  I even shoot them.  But I don't think it will surprise me.  There is actually a historical sling from Haithabu.  This is built very quickly.  But is that what I imagine  The answer is no.  I have a particular model in mind.  They are made of synthetic fiber.  It would be very durable and also very attractive.  I think that something like this is no longer a problem on a programmable loom.  I've been pursuing this idea for some time.  We'll see what comes out of it

I only suggested it because you said that we should go to a sports manufacturer to standardize and mass-produce slings.  Why not let an engineer who is already part of the slinging community give it a try first?  Since I know you have strong opinions and I also know you will be totally honest with me, I offered to send you one or two of my current design to review. The asymmetric design is intended to closely mimic the function of a split pouch sling but have better retention so beginners don’t throw as many stones backwards.  You have much more experience with traditional slings, so I would love to hear your opinions on how it compares. 

Ok 👌

Wow, what can I say. I never expected, as a newbie, to start a thread which would lead to Jaegoors most excellent revelation.

I have always found people of good heart do what they can. I didn't presume to suggest anything on sling development because I know I'm out of my depth and I leave it to my betters.

Ammo on the other hand.......

Perhaps it's a chicken and egg situation.......

Jaegoor says sport sling first then ammo.

Why not twin track development. ?

Or better yet three groups working, one on sport development, one on slings and one on ammo.

I humbly await input.🤔

xud9a - call me zud 👍 wrote on Feb 17^th, 2021 at 7:37am:

Wow, what can I say. I never expected, as a newbie, to start a thread which would lead to Jaegoors most excellent revelation. I have always found people of good heart do what they can. I didn't presume to suggest anything on sling development because I know I'm out of my depth and I leave it to my betters. Ammo on the other hand....... Perhaps it's a chicken and egg situation....... Jaegoor says sport sling first then ammo. Why not twin track development. ? Or better yet three groups working, one on sport development, one on slings and one on ammo. I humbly await input.🤔

Thats the most logical way of doing it I can see. We all have different interests and specialties and it would make sense we all focus on our strong points and share information to meet in the middle.

Thanks for that Morphy.
I think that places us at;

Please can I have volunteers to help me with ammo, whatever works for you, input, research, or approaching manufacturers ?

Jaegoor and Nocc appear to be way out there in front to sort sling standards ..... Are you up for the challenge, or am I being presumptuous ?

And..... Anyone interested in sport development ?  Possibly the worst area as it means dealing with humans in sports organisations.

I humbly await input........ Either to

"Suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles"

Or more hopefully to work towards a goal 👍👍👍

xud9a - call me zud 👍 wrote on Feb 18^th, 2021 at 9:25am:

Thanks for that Morphy. I think that places us at; Please can I have volunteers to help me with ammo, whatever works for you, input, research, or approaching manufacturers ? Jaegoor and Nocc appear to be way out there in front to sort sling standards ..... Are you up for the challenge, or am I being presumptuous ? And..... Anyone interested in sport development ?  Possibly the worst area as it means dealing with humans in sports organisations. I humbly await input........ Either to "Suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune Or to take arms against a sea of troubles" Or more hopefully to work towards a goal 👍👍👍

I volunteer to provide input. I feel like we neglect ammo innovation in comparison to sling innovation.

Woo hoo ! and so it starts.

SerKraus, many thanks for being first to stick your head above the parapet.

So we now have 2 in the ammo group.

I suggest we look for an odd number of people (so always a majority possible) in each group, at least 5 to allow for holidays and other absence.

If sufficient volunteer for each group I propose a month to settle out and sort what they want to achieve and report back in one month to assess progress.

Cheers.👍

Mods, does this thread need moving, re naming, sticking or something else please. ?
Cheers.

NO STICKIES!  We just cleaned up the stickies!  LOL :o

Stickies are important for a few topics but typically threads have a life of their own. There is no rhyme or reason why some go so longer and some don’t. If this is your thing the absolute best way to get more discussion is to do testing and then post pictures and videos. We are essentially hungry fish. Just give us some bait and let us go at it.  :D

Sarosh wrote on Feb 15^th, 2021 at 3:23pm:

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Feb 15th, 2021 at 3:04pm: You need customers who want to buy the slings. we need more wolves then all shepherds will want to buy slings.

This is the way of the fastest popularization of the sling, you submitted a good idea, it is necessary to breed wolves and increase their population
;D

@scorpionvin
Oh the longing to have a wolfskin sling, hat  or jock strap 🤓🤣

Beavers have been released into the wild here in the UK. There is serious discussion about doing the same with wolf and bear....a step too far for me but I see the logic.

Cheers   👍

Update,
SerKraus and I are moving apace on Ammo and I think are on track to post some conclusions in a few weeks.

We would be delighted for any others to join our Ammo working group particularly if you are young, old or middle aged and to prove no discrimination we don't mind wether you have hair or not.

If anyone is interested in working on sport sling standards or sport development please check in or pm me.
Cheers

Zud.

The only thing I want in this life is cheap but quality ammo.

I have a challenge for you guys: get the material cost of your ammo down below $0.10 per piece

SerKraus wrote on Feb 24^th, 2021 at 10:19am:

The only thing I want in this life is cheap but quality ammo.

whats is cheap for you? ($/gram)


NooneOfConsequence wrote on Feb 24^th, 2021 at 10:28am:

I have a challenge for you guys: get the material cost of your ammo down below $0.10 per piece

I think that is impossible unless you are selling 10gram bullets or something

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Feb 24^th, 2021 at 10:28am:

I have a challenge for you guys: get the material cost of your ammo down below $0.10 per piece

My land has a ton of clay. I COULD just shovel it up, and roll it on the mokds. Then dry it out.

But i am lazy. I might do that one day

I specifically said “material cost” which excludes labor. If you’re making ammo in bulk, I think it’s very possible, but not if you assume that it isn’t before trying.

Impossible isnt the word i would use. Easy is more like it.

https://i.imgur.com/W3ED9gi.png

Less than 2 cents per 4 oz shot. Extremely durable and almost as dense as a river stone. Perfect shape etc. Also anyone has access to it. Hard to beat

already done concrete ammo a single concrete egg(117g avg)  cost 0.0034€ 

Sarosh wrote on Feb 24^th, 2021 at 1:09pm:

already done concrete ammo a single concrete egg(117g avg)  cost 0.0034€

Not being sarcastic here Sarosh.... but wouldnt that be less than 10 cents per shot? Im too tired to figure out where my brain is going wrong here.

Sarosh wrote on Feb 24^th, 2021 at 1:09pm:

already done concrete ammo a single concrete egg(117g avg)  cost 0.0034€

Sure. We can go with 0.10€ if you want. That leaves a lot of room for fiber or chemical additives to achieve different properties.

I’m just trying to eliminate some of the “gold plated” options like machined tungsten.

Morphy wrote on Feb 24^th, 2021 at 1:30pm:

Not being sarcastic here Sarosh.... but wouldnt that be less than 10 cents per shot? Im too tired to figure out where my brain is going wrong here.

I meant more than I wrote. Yes that is 0.0034€ per shot which means the challenge Nooc proposed has been accomplished. In reply #91 I thought he was talking about price including labour. Clearly he isnt. My bad, I didnt read the material in material cost :P

Sarosh wrote on Feb 24^th, 2021 at 3:05pm:

Morphy wrote on Feb 24th, 2021 at 1:30pm: Not being sarcastic here Sarosh.... but wouldnt that be less than 10 cents per shot? Im too tired to figure out where my brain is going wrong here. I meant more than I wrote. Yes that is 0.0034€ per shot which means the challenge Nooc proposed has been accomplished. In reply #91 I thought he was talking about price including labour. Clearly he isnt. My bad, I didnt read the material in material cost :P

I see. So ya you are right though. Its the labor cost that is the real problem. Actually material in slinging is super cheap. Its labor in gathering, making and regathering shots that is the real cost. Which is why im so big on backstops. Because even 2 cent concrete ammo isnt a viable solution if you only get a couple shots from each.

What I really would like though is a moldable epoxy putty that I could use in CAs rollers. But that stuff is so much more expensive than normal clay or concrete. Sooo much more convenient though.

People are now 3D printing concrete houses using a small crew. If you can do that, you can also automate the mixing and pouring of cement into glande molds. It’s a solvable problem at scale.

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Feb 24^th, 2021 at 4:52pm:

People are now 3D printing concrete houses using a small crew. If you can do that, you can also automate the mixing and pouring of cement into glande molds. It’s a solvable problem at scale.

Ive dreamed about something like that for years. If the material is cost effective that might be the beat solution

Morphy wrote on Feb 24^th, 2021 at 4:56pm:

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Feb 24th, 2021 at 4:52pm: People are now 3D printing concrete houses using a small crew. If you can do that, you can also automate the mixing and pouring of cement into glande molds. It’s a solvable problem at scale. Ive dreamed about something like that for years. If the material is cost effective that might be the best solution

It’s conceptually simple, but the devil’s in the details. There’s a lot of design that must go into the mold, the cement formulation, mold release agents, automated mixing, pumping, and material handling.

The ideal solution would be an ammunition “factory” that is easy to replicate around the world. Local production is preferred because the shipping costs for the final product would be fairly expensive.

If you really want to get fancy, add fibers under tension to make pre-stressed concrete ammo

There’s also going to be some secret sauce in the curing process.

@ NooC, Vetryan, Sarosh and Morphy........

SerKraus has already given up desire for food, transport, a home and love in pursuit of cheap reusable ammo.

If any of you are offering to join our ammo working group then have at it

8-) :-X

SerKraus wrote on Feb 24^th, 2021 at 10:19am:

The only thing I want in this life is cheap but quality ammo.

Whoops, I was so exited by my last post being my favourite number that I misquoted my noble partner in Cri......... Err, research.
Error rectified.👍

xud9a - call me zud 👍 wrote on Feb 24^th, 2021 at 6:37pm:

@ NooC, Vetryan, Sarosh and Morphy........ SerKraus has already given up desire for food, transport, a home and love in pursuit of cheap reusable ammo. If any of you are offering to join our ammo working group then have at it 8-) :-X

Not to be melodramatic lol...but seriously in regards to pushing slinging forward this topic is more important than you know.  ;D

;)

xud9a - call me zud 👍 wrote on Feb 24^th, 2021 at 6:37pm:

@ NooC, Vetryan, Sarosh and Morphy........ SerKraus has already given up desire for food, transport, a home and love in pursuit of cheap reusable ammo. If any of you are offering to join our ammo working group then have at it 8-) :-X

I am considering joining. Do we get to wear robes? Is there a hazing ritual?  What about a group chant or theme song?  Is the working group working under an umbrella standards body? If so... ASTM? Or ASME?  Or maybe IEEE? No. That would be weird.

Making a standardised ammo or reusable ammo has a initial question.

What is the desired use of the ammo.

Hunting
Distance
Warfare
Targets

All of them would have different parameters.

Shapes and materials would vary

What are we trying to build because consistent shape and weight items are everywhere.

@ Mersa, Stated parameters in thread, sport slinging.
@ NooC, B.Y.o.R. (bring your own robes). CAA (Civil aviation authority).

8-)

Seriously, develop first. Test and (if necessary) ISO.

Mersa wrote on Feb 25^th, 2021 at 4:08am:

Making a standardised ammo or reusable ammo has a initial question. What is the desired use of the ammo. Hunting Distance Warfare Targets All of them would have different parameters. Shapes and materials would vary What are we trying to build because consistent shape and weight items are everywhere.

I don’t know Mersa. I think razor glandes would work for all of those situations.

I have one word for you all. Spammo.

EDIT: 2 words actually... Crabunition.

Just depends on whether the knight I’m slinging at has a shellfish allergy or not. “Morphy uses Crabunition, it is very effective!”

For sport slinging I think Jaegoors rusty balls or some standard ball is sufficient.
Even riverstones are easy to get in similar weights and sizes.
Clay probably wins slightly.

For me I think a hunting glande is the only ammo worth a novel design.

Morphy wrote on Feb 25^th, 2021 at 9:30am:

“Morphy uses Crabunition, it is very effective!”

Dammit Morphy! I can't just have a series of your quotes as my signature on here! I'm going to need you to be less hilariously quotable.

Kick wrote on Feb 26^th, 2021 at 3:55am:

Morphy wrote on Feb 25th, 2021 at 9:30am: “Morphy uses Crabunition, it is very effective!” Dammit Morphy! I can't just have a series of your quotes as my signature on here! I'm going to need you to be less hilariously quotable.

;D ;D

You call it hilariously quotable but my wife has a different phrase to describe me.  8-)

oh god, I'm in the same boat, however my significant other (and purveyor of withering epithets) is far too sensible to marry me    :-X

Kick wrote on Feb 26^th, 2021 at 3:55am:

Morphy wrote on Feb 25th, 2021 at 9:30am: “Morphy uses Crabunition, it is very effective!” Dammit Morphy! I can't just have a series of your quotes as my signature on here! I'm going to need you to be less hilariously quotable.

I think we may have the makings  of a new t-shirt!

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Feb 26^th, 2021 at 8:19am:

Kick wrote on Feb 26th, 2021 at 3:55am: Morphy wrote on Feb 25th, 2021 at 9:30am: “Morphy uses Crabunition, it is very effective!” Dammit Morphy! I can't just have a series of your quotes as my signature on here! I'm going to need you to be less hilariously quotable. I think we may have the makings  of a new t-shirt!

Morphy quotes? Don’t unleash that onto the world. Holy crap...  :o :o  :P  ;D

Morphy wrote on Feb 26^th, 2021 at 12:40pm:

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Feb 26th, 2021 at 8:19am: Kick wrote on Feb 26th, 2021 at 3:55am: Morphy wrote on Feb 25th, 2021 at 9:30am: “Morphy uses Crabunition, it is very effective!” Dammit Morphy! I can't just have a series of your quotes as my signature on here! I'm going to need you to be less hilariously quotable. I think we may have the makings  of a new t-shirt! Morphy quotes? Don’t unleash that onto the world. Holy crap...  :o :o  :P  ;D

It’s too late now. You’ve already unleashed the beast. I’m just having it printed on a t-shirt

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Feb 26^th, 2021 at 5:49pm:

Morphy wrote on Feb 26th, 2021 at 12:40pm: NooneOfConsequence wrote on Feb 26th, 2021 at 8:19am: Kick wrote on Feb 26th, 2021 at 3:55am: Morphy wrote on Feb 25th, 2021 at 9:30am: “Morphy uses Crabunition, it is very effective!” Dammit Morphy! I can't just have a series of your quotes as my signature on here! I'm going to need you to be less hilariously quotable. I think we may have the makings  of a new t-shirt! Morphy quotes? Don’t unleash that onto the world. Holy crap...  :o :o  :P  ;D It’s too late now. You’ve already unleashed the beast. I’m just having it printed on a t-shirt

“Tired of all the sex you’re having?” #MorphyQuotesTShirts

APPEAL

we have a production engineer on board.

We need 4 "identical" glandes to use as  prototype models.

So, could anyone who has one of CAs glande rollers or another form of production  please  generously offer 4 of their gorgeous glandes ?

Living in Hope ( well nearby)

Cheers

Zud.

xud9a - call me zud 👍 wrote on Mar 1^st, 2021 at 7:06am:

APPEAL we have a production engineer on board. We need 4 "identical" glandes to use as  prototype models. So, could anyone who has one of CAs glande rollers or another form of production  please  generously offer 4 of their gorgeous glandes ? Living in Hope ( well nearby) Cheers Zud.

Not sure that would sell Zud. Also would be hard to fit it all on a normal T-Shirt

Sound byte,

2 pairs of big, hairy glandes !

xud9a - call me zud 👍 wrote on Mar 1^st, 2021 at 5:36pm:

Sound byte, 2 pairs of big, hairy glandes !

#ZudQuotes  ;D ;D Love it.

;)