Seems to be a tight braid or twist, as tight as we can get it. An experiment made it very obvious to me. I made a sling simply from the outher shell of paracord, with the core taken out.

This limp outer shell is not tight, it's floppy and twisty, even a short sling made just with the outher paracord shell, and even utilizing the widest grip as possible, the sling is still unstable and twisty, even with lightweight ammo. Useless

So the trick to a good sling, whether that sling is thick or thin, is the tightness of the braid. The paracord with the core inside is stiffer, hence it works better.

If I leave my braided slings outdoors, they stiffen up, and if they are indoors, they become loose. If I am to braid my slings in the cold and winter, their braid should be tighter by default than if I were to braid them in the warm indoors or summer.


I know I am not stating new information, but this is rather a reminder, braid as tight as you can, don't neglect it

I don’t know J.  The sling works on tension.  The stiffness may have a small effect on lag angle and release timing but so does pouch shape, ammo, and style. I don’t think it can be boiled down to cord stiffness... unless “good” is defined as a sling you just like. If stiffness elicits a positive visceral reaction for you and that’s your definition of good, then I can’t say you are wrong, but other people may have a different opinion.

AncientCraftwork wrote on Jan 19^th, 2021 at 5:30pm:

Seems to be a tight braid or twist, as tight as we can get it. An experiment made it very obvious to me. I made a sling simply from the outher shell of paracord, with the core taken out. This limp outer shell is not tight, it's floppy and twisty, even a short sling made just with the outher paracord shell, and even utilizing the widest grip as possible, the sling is still unstable and twisty, even with lightweight ammo. Useless So the trick to a good sling, whether that sling is thick or thin, is the tightness of the braid. The paracord with the core inside is stiffer, hence it works better. If I leave my braided slings outdoors, they stiffen up, and if they are indoors, they become loose. If I am to braid my slings in the cold and winter, their braid should be tighter by default than if I were to braid them in the warm indoors or summer. I know I am not stating new information, but this is rather a reminder, braid as tight as you can, don't neglect it

I agree with NOOC. Actually some of my most accurate slings have been with very limp, supple cordage. The first questions I would ask when coming up with a new theory is:
What specific claim am I making. Be as specific as possible. Ex. This will increase my accuracy. Then test over a period of several weeks before making a decision. 

The reason for such a long testing time is something that tends to happen in many weapons. When you get a new bow or sling suddenly you’re shooting better than ever before. Same thing happens often when trying new techniques.

Then over time there is a regression to the mean. Usually what this is, is an increased conscious concentration thats causing you to focus more than otherwise. As your body/mind get used to it similar bad habits creep in or you lose the initial fascination with the new weapon and hence the regression. This happens a lot.

I agree that a tight braid is preferable to a loose one.  A loose braid can have a lot of movement between the cords.  I've definitely had this happen with some of my braids and the sling ends up feeling like it has a lot of stretch.

I'm curious about paracord with the core removed.  I'm cutting out a pouch right now.  Hopefully give it a test in the morning.

joe_meadmaker wrote on Jan 19^th, 2021 at 9:47pm:

I agree that a tight braid is preferable to a loose one.  A loose braid can have a lot of movement between the cords.  I've definitely had this happen with some of my braids and the sling ends up feeling like it has a lot of stretch. I'm curious about paracord with the core removed.  I'm cutting out a pouch right now.  Hopefully give it a test in the morning.

    A while back RJB sent me a sling made of gutted paracord.  I liked it a lot.
    I prefer a tightly braided sling. 
    One trick to a good sling for me is making the pouch elongated and tapered.  I like the extra spin you get. 

b
NooneOfConsequence wrote on Jan 19^th, 2021 at 8:41pm:

I don’t know J.  The sling works on tension.  The stiffness may have a small effect on lag angle and release timing but so does pouch shape, ammo, and style. I don’t think it can be boiled down to cord stiffness... unless “good” is defined as a sling you just like. If stiffness elicits a positive visceral reaction for you and that’s your definition of good, then I can’t say you are wrong, but other people may have a different opinion.

It's about how quick the pouch turns to the turning of your wrist. If it is instantly or nearly instantly, it is very good. This means you have control over the angle of release, and allows consistency in the release, and consistency in spiralling. If that's not what makes a ''good sling'' than I would say you are sling relativist, I guess.  :D

The single cord-outer mantle sling has a huge lag in the pouch when I turn my wrist, even with light ammo, and short cords. It just wants to twist around itself, even with the widest grip. I don't use real paracord for this experiment, so your results may differ. but the principle is the same, the outer mantle alone has lost its tightness without the core. But maybe real paracord outer mantle is still stiff enough to provide enough control, but I doubt it.
This means consistent releases are impossible, the sling becomes very unpredictable, will it give a top spin, spiral spin, side spin, etc, you no longer have control. it's useless. Again, if you are a beginner slinger that hasn't learned pouch angle control yet, or only sling perfect ice spheres, this may be less noticeable or important. But if you sling point first biconicals most of the time, you notice it immediately if you cant control the pouch angle.

The way to regain control over the pouch angle is by stiffening the sling up. Possible through various methods. In case with a single cord paracord sling, using cord with a core helps. Traditionally the way has been to braid the tightest as we can. This helps. Other ways include very tight whipping on parts of the sling. A sling that is both light yet tight is the best.

A way to test this would be to film a sling of each extreme in slow motion as it is spun with a weight in the pouch, this will reveal any difference in their behaviour.
Depending what mobile phone you have, this might be very easy to do. My old camera that I did my early slo mo videos with has been far surpassed by modern phones.

David Morningstar wrote on Jan 20^th, 2021 at 6:52am:

A way to test this would be to film a sling of each extreme in slo motion as it is spun with a weight in the pouch, this will reveal any difference in the behaviour.

+1. Testing is key.

Morphy wrote on Jan 20^th, 2021 at 6:53am:

David Morningstar wrote on Jan 20th, 2021 at 6:52am: A way to test this would be to film a sling of each extreme in slo motion as it is spun with a weight in the pouch, this will reveal any difference in the behaviour. +1. Testing is key.

+2  I am open to believing that minor twisting of the cords affects the trajectory of the ammo. 

Let’s be more precise than “good” though in describing the effect. It could affect consistency (precision) and/or energy transfer to the ammo... and the of course you have to determine “how” those elements are affected. For example, is the effect more prominent with oblong ammo and a split pouch than spherical ammo and a Y sling?  Then the rotation probably affects accuracy via the Magnus effect and changing the direction of spin... whereby the floppy string theory has a greater impact on external ballistics than internal ballistics and pouch dynamics.  There’s a lot of things to investigate before I am willing to believe that stiff cords are universally better than floppies. 

The difficult thing is removing variability of the slinger from the equation. If only we had some sort of automated sling throwing device... like a robotic slinger of sorts...

Here’s another test J:
Try stiff and floppy cords on a staff sling where twist should be nonexistent and let’s see if there are other differences between the two.

Ages ago I did slo mo of different slinging styles, and one of the takeaways was that the helicopter style rolls the pouch over just as it comes up to the release point and this can lead to wildly different releases:

https://youtu.be/wY-EHvtjhAY (rolling motion of pouch as it spins around)

Three different results from a sequence of helicopter style throws:

https://youtu.be/PvidIcGUXkQ (perfect point first release of glande)

https://youtu.be/uDTO1VYoMXw (vertical orientation release)

https://youtu.be/EJjFK68mn0w (release cord fouls the shot)

I dont think it is any coincidence that Balearic slingers by a great majority use a sidearm throw that very reliably places the cords above each other at the moment of release:

https://youtu.be/396YywA4h3c (use space bar to stop playback then , and . to advance frame by frame)

https://youtu.be/396YywA4h3c (super clean release visible here)

Interesting. I’ve seen these before but I wasn’t looking at technical details of the motion.

One thing is for certain, cords that have no twist resistance are very difficult to control. I did a lot of experimentation several months ago trying to gain the same amount of consistency with thin, reverse twisted cords as my Balearic-style slings. I found it troubling how much more difficult it was to be accurate.
The question is to what extent should cords be twist resistant?  I personally think they should be as much as you can practically achieve. Naturally, the tighter the braid (and the more strands you use) the more twist resistant it will be. I don't think pouch control is hugely important if you only throw projectiles the same shape and weight i.e tennis balls, but it is when throwing random stones. Under such circumstances, one makes all sorts of subconscious adjustments in order to get the stone to go in the direction of the target, and having a sling that is responsive to the slinger makes the whole job easier.

I have a old phone cord that's braided kern mantle over wires. It's cord like but quite stiff and there is  virtually no twist in it compared to normal cordage. I'll be using it to make my trash sling two days from now as well as concrete ammo for consistent throwing and test it out against a control sling with gutted paracord and non-gutted paracord.

I'm super rusty but it won't matter since all slings will be used by me. I'll get back to you with hard results as soon as I can.

What's correct guys? For the tightest sling, braid it in a warm or cold environment?

guess it depends on your throwing style.

Fig-8 benefits from a more supple set of cords. Stiff sling are hard work in fig-8.

Actually in general - the longer the sling the more flexible the cords seems to be a good rule of thumb.

For balearic target shooting - ie: really short distances and a helicopter or sidearm throw - then short stiff slings are more suited.
For almost everyting else a longer more supple set of cords feels better. 

Et tu, Curious Aardvark?  This is getting absurd! Are you going to back those claims up?  Like J’s original post it’s a very authoritative sounding opinion, but it’s just an opinion unless you want to offer a reason for it.

Or perhaps now we’re just trading arbitrary opinions as facts?  I guess I can play that game too... I want to try ;D

The best ammo for slinging comes from Himalayan granite.

If you’re going to sling figure-8 style, it’s best to do it in Pennsylvania on a Tuesday.

Natural fiber slings work better if you soak them in purple dye unless you are throwing tennis balls... then blue is much better.

While I openly admit to having no proof my experience has been similar to CAs. We have both been dedicated to the Fig-8 for a long, long time.  Not proof at all but also not making any claims of it being an absolute.

I'm glad that was mentioned though so I can try out both the fig-8 and the side arm with my super stiff phone cord sling.

I'm actually completely uncertain what the optimal stiffness/pliability balance is for slings and ammo of various types.

One very important thing I have noticed though, is that increased stiffness either side of the pouch can make slings much safer against premature drops, particularly with larger/rugged ammo as the pouch resists rolling on it's axis and dumping them out the side (longer pouches can somewhat fill the same role). You can test these by simply putting a rock in a pouch and shaking it enough to dislodge it, or applying an off centre downwards force on the projectile. Even adding whipping reinforcement either side of a pouch can bring about a drastic increase to pouch stability/safety. I first noticed this when I found my seatbelt slings were retaining large stones markedly better than some of my other leather pouches. On investigation I found that seatbelt slings are stiff and roll resistant due to the way the pouch folds and attaches to the cords, and even with a more slippery and less compliant pouch they were outperforming the leather pouches I had made at the time. Balearics also make a lot of sense in this context, they have unrivalled pouch stability (and generally a fairly long pouch too), perfect for large and uneven stones.

All this stuff around stiffness allowing control of release angle is interesting too, but again, I've had very clean releasing slings that are plain paracord, which as we know is fairly thin and pliable. Perhaps if you don't seek to control spin it doesn't matter too much.

Morphy wrote on Jan 21^st, 2021 at 8:49am:

While I openly admit to having no proof my experience has been similar to CAs. We have both been dedicated to the Fig-8 for a long, long time.  Not proof at all but also not making any claims of it being an absolute. I'm glad that was mentioned though so I can try out both the fig-8 and the side arm with my super stiff phone cord sling.

My instinct is that more pliable slings work better with fig-8 because of perhaps a larger and more complex rotation from the hand which would be inhibited by stiffness. Stiffer slings also tend to be heavier and figure 8 for me is a higher speed lower force motion than balearic sidearm for example.

Keep in mind stiff and suppleness is a spectrum

I like single cord paracord sling if the cord still as the core, it has plenty stiffness to handle rocks I like.
But for me gutted paracord for a single-cord sling is absolutely useless, it's too limp
When it comes to paracord my favorite paracord is actually #275 and not 550

AncientCraftwork wrote on Jan 21^st, 2021 at 5:22am:

What's correct guys? For the tightest sling, braid it in a warm I or cold environment?

I would say cold, when the fibers are contracted. 

lol I should rent out my workshop to braiders then - currently 13c

Got some new tpu 'thermoplastic polyurethane' filament so printing sling plouches for a friend who just destroys the flexible pla ones.

Hoping this stuff will be a bit more durable.

She pretty much just chucks tennis balls for gundogs.
I use the printed flexible pouches as leather just doesn't like being wet all the time.
Even if the dogs aren't swimming - dog slobber will kill a leather pouch in no time.

So whether it's the wet - which Is unlikely as I've printed several of our pond pump connectors from flexible pla - and they show no wear aftera couple of years in the pond.
Or possibly dog saliva breaks down pla.

So we'll see how she fares with the new tpu.
It's a lot more stretchy and I can't tear or break the pouches with my hands.
I've also made them a little thicker

We'll see.

Ah yes - nothing to do with cords - although she never returns the cords from the broken pouch slings. Which is annoying as they are fine lol

what difference is 550 to 275 - I presume it's not the diameter ?

You should git some and see, it's the stiffest paracord that the paracord company sells, it's great for long distance
https://www.paracordplanet.com/paracord/275-paracord/

Rat Man wrote on Jan 21^st, 2021 at 10:37am:

AncientCraftwork wrote on Jan 21st, 2021 at 5:22am: What's correct guys? For the tightest sling, braid it in a warm I or cold environment? I would say cold, when the fibers are contracted.

Wouldn't hot be better? Then when you move into room temperature it will constrict and get tighter. If you go from cold to warm or room temp, then it will get slacker.

fun fact: at 4°C water has the smallest volume. https://www.quora.com/Will-the-mass-of-water-increase-after-increasing-the-temperature

any change in temperature up or down will increase the volume of water.

Curious Aardvark wrote on Jan 21^st, 2021 at 11:24am:

dog slobber will kill a leather pouch in no time.

I’m not trying to constantly be a contrarian, but I’ve used the same leather sling for over 6 months. I throw between 30 and 100 throws every single day with slobbery tennis balls. It gets wet and muddy, but the pouch is still fine. I even had one that fell in a lake, and I didn’t recover it for over an hour, but it kept working for months before I gave it away to someone else. That’s all anecdotal, of course. What type of leather leather are you using?

JudoP wrote on Jan 21^st, 2021 at 8:56am:

Morphy wrote on Jan 21st, 2021 at 8:49am: While I openly admit to having no proof my experience has been similar to CAs. We have both been dedicated to the Fig-8 for a long, long time.  Not proof at all but also not making any claims of it being an absolute. I'm glad that was mentioned though so I can try out both the fig-8 and the side arm with my super stiff phone cord sling. My instinct is that more pliable slings work better with fig-8 because of perhaps a larger and more complex rotation from the hand which would be inhibited by stiffness. Stiffer slings also tend to be heavier and figure 8 for me is a higher speed lower force motion than balearic sidearm for example.

I agree, well said. And I don’t necessarily know if that is all of it but it’s certainly a major part of it. Today is my last shift for the next four days so I’m hoping to get at least two tests done. Hopefully. Lol. Hopefully they will shed some light on stiff vs non-stiff slings, as well as other things that I think people may find interesting.

I was able to get some recording in today.  One sling with unmodified 550 paracord, and another with the core strands removed.  A much different feel between them than I was expecting.  I'll get the video posted tomorrow and will include some other thoughts at that time.

JudoP wrote on Jan 21^st, 2021 at 8:56am:

My instinct is that more pliable slings work better with fig-8 because of perhaps a larger and more complex rotation from the hand which would be inhibited by stiffness. Stiffer slings also tend to be heavier and figure 8 for me is a higher speed lower force motion than balearic sidearm for example.

I disagree. If you have a stiff sling, it resists rotation around the strand axis. If you get this rotation, you get crossed strands and the release cord gets tangled around the retention cord. No bueno.  You want something that resists twisting so the force applied during the wrist motion is transferred to the projectile almost as soon as it is made (ideally simultaneously).

I think in terms of following wrist rotation, which occurs with any throwing style excluding maybe Apache style, we can objectively say that a retention cord that resists twisting is best, regardless of throwing style.

In terms of a quick release, and the sling cords not interfering with the projectile, a very flexible release cord is best. At least flexible in the sense that it can have a small bending radius of curvature to facilitate moving the release cord out of the way of the projectile as quickly as possible.

This thread is really fascinating. I’ve been harping on all the opinion-as-fact posts, but it reveals each person’s mental model of how they think the sling works.

Morphy, you’ve got a lot of testing to do!

I am starting to think that flat braids are superior for the sling. Flat vs round is an interesting discussion.
With round cords, whether twisted or braided, the sling cords could be twisted (not around each other but twisted on their own axis) without you knowing it. That's why after every shot with a single cord-paracord sling, you kind of have to keep the sling up in the air and let the cords untwist and straighten out, but since round cords move much more freely about on their own axis than flat or square cords, I think it is worse for controlling the the pouch with the wrist. Of course you can stiffen or thicken round cords up but the fact remains, round cords twist around their own axis more easily.

On the contrary, a flat-braid or square braid sling has 4 corners. You easily notice it if a flat cord is twisted around its own axis the sling won't even work properly. A thick flat braid like a Balearic sling can not even twist around once its own axis without springing back into its original shape. For accurate slinging this is very beneficial I believe.

I made a flat braid hemp sling yesterday with thin cords. And even though the cord is not much bigger than paracord, I have much more control over the pouch angle than in comparison to a round cord of the same size. That leads me to believe that for thin and efficient slings, flat cords are still the better option. It makes accurate rifled shots everytime. With flat cords you know that its not twisted because you can see it. With round cords you cannot really be sure unless you take a lot of time to check it out after each throw and even then it's more prone to twisting on itself when throwing.

So now I am a flat-corder...

@J, how much effect do you believe that the cord twist has on a shot?  How much of the effect is the trajectory as it leaves the pouch?  How much is Magnus effect or other external ballistics?

Do you think that the effect of cord twist is more significant than the aerodynamic drag of a flat cord?  Or is that even a fair question since one impacts accuracy and the other affects power more?

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2021 at 1:42pm:

aerodynamic drag of a flat cord

I wouldn't be surprised if flat cords are actually more aerodynamic than round cords, as long as the flat braid has a high strand count (the more strands, the thinner and wider the proportions of the braid become). Although round cords are superior under wet conditions, I'd say flat braids have more pros. But that's just me.

IronGoober wrote on Jan 21^st, 2021 at 11:04pm:

JudoP wrote on Jan 21st, 2021 at 8:56am: My instinct is that more pliable slings work better with fig-8 because of perhaps a larger and more complex rotation from the hand which would be inhibited by stiffness. Stiffer slings also tend to be heavier and figure 8 for me is a higher speed lower force motion than balearic sidearm for example. I disagree. If you have a stiff sling, it resists rotation around the strand axis. If you get this rotation, you get crossed strands and the release cord gets tangled around the retention cord. No bueno.  You want something that resists twisting so the force applied during the wrist motion is transferred to the projectile almost as soon as it is made (ideally simultaneously). I think in terms of following wrist rotation, which occurs with any throwing style excluding maybe Apache style, we can objectively say that a retention cord that resists twisting is best, regardless of throwing style. In terms of a quick release, and the sling cords not interfering with the projectile, a very flexible release cord is best. At least flexible in the sense that it can have a small bending radius of curvature to facilitate moving the release cord out of the way of the projectile as quickly as possible.

But if you allow an amount of stiffness such that the cords do not become twisted/tangled mid throw- that should be sufficient- any further stiffness increase merely increases the responsiveness and pouch safety. I don't believe that paracord slings suffer from twisting (if I understand the problem you describe properly). Yet these remain pliable enough to easily and freely trace out quite a wide ranging motion when using figure 8, where stiffer bulkier slings may feel unwieldy. For other techniques then maybe the pliability is not as needed. I'm not saying this is fact, but it seems plausible to me.

As for cords getting out of the way of the projectile as it leaves the pouch, if you check out David's clips earlier you can see the projectiles exit out of the side of the pouch which dodges the issue. Nevertheless it can push through the cord sometimes, for this I personally find stiffness doesn't particularly inhibit the exit, a stiff thick cord which is heavily tapered so it whips open will not be much of an impediment unless you are using quite light ammo. In this realm I find the weight of non-tapered thick cords can have the negative effect you speak of though as they require a lot more oomph to push them fully out of the way.

Here's some slow-mo with two slings.  Both are 550 paracord, but the blue-pouched sling has the core strands removed.

There is quite a difference.  I don't know if I would go as far as using the word "floppy", but I definitely see where J got that description.  The paracord with a core has a much more rigid feel (obviously).  But the throw also feels tighter and more controlled.  I completely admit that my go-to sling uses 550 paracord, so I'm used to it.  If I went coreless for a while, the normal stuff might start feeling too rigid.

This was my first go with slow motion recording.  The video length went way longer than planned, but I wanted to get the rotor as part of the recording.  When I watch these, I think I see a little more wobble in the pouch with the coreless sling.  Specifically when the sling is flipping over as it rotates between my left and right.  I've watched the recording many times now, so I might just be convincing myself that I'm seeing it.  Curious to hear if other notice any differences.

One last observation.  For a release knot I usually use a basic overhand knot.  After the core strands are removed, this knot is super tiny!  Completely logical result, but the thought never occurred to me until I tied it.

Overall I prefer the paracord to have the core.  But as mentioned, I think a big part of that is because I'm used to it.

https://youtu.be/Nbg4B0bFAMA

joe_meadmaker wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2021 at 2:24pm:

Here's some slow-mo with two slings.  Both are 550 paracord, but the blue-pouched sling has the core strands removed. There is quite a difference.  I don't know if I would go as far as using the word "floppy", but I definitely see where J got that description.  The paracord with a core has a much more rigid feel (obviously).  But the throw also feels tighter and more controlled.  I completely admit that my go-to sling uses 550 paracord, so I'm used to it.  If I went coreless for a while, the normal stuff might start feeling too rigid. This was my first go with slow motion recording.  The video length went way longer than planned, but I wanted to get the rotor as part of the recording.  When I watch these, I think I see a little more wobble in the pouch with the coreless sling.  Specifically when the sling is flipping over as it rotates between my left and right.  I've watched the recording many times now, so I might just be convincing myself that I'm seeing it.  Curious to hear if other notice any differences. One last observation.  For a release knot I usually use a basic overhand knot.  After the core strands are removed, this knot is super tiny!  Completely logical result, but the thought never occurred to me until I tied it. Overall I prefer the paracord to have the core.  But as mentioned, I think a big part of that is because I'm used to it. https://youtu.be/Nbg4B0bFAMA

Interesting video, I don't think I could make out a difference for sure from the footage. Maybe the gutted version had a bit of an upwards trajectory during release that the regular version didn't have- perhaps caused by some oscillation that is damped out in the cored version, but I can't say for sure.

EDIT: Actually on second look they appear the same, at least to the naked eye. Do you think you could tell the difference if you took a throw without knowing in advance what sling you were holding?

JudoP wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2021 at 2:39pm:

Do you think you could tell the difference if you took a throw without knowing in advance what sling you were holding?

100% yes.

Although once upon a time I thought I had no chance of messing up the Pepsi/Coke Challenge, and I failed that.  :-[

So maybe I need to give it a try.  I'm fairly certain I would be able to though.  The difference in how the throw felt was more than I expected it to be.  For a test I'll need to make a new sling.  The leather of the two slings I use also feels different.  I would know which one I had just by loading it.

joe_meadmaker wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2021 at 3:20pm:

I would know which one I had just by loading it.

Wear some gloves, and pre-load them.

Also, in your video, the red sling had some twist in the cords when it was behind you , the blue sling didn't twist. This illustrates the point I was trying to make about the cords resisting twist. I'll post some screen captures in a bit. 

JudoP wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2021 at 2:22pm:

But if you allow an amount of stiffness such that the cords do not become twisted/tangled mid throw- that should be sufficient- any further stiffness increase merely increases the responsiveness and pouch safety. I don't believe that paracord slings suffer from twisting (if I understand the problem you describe properly). Yet these remain pliable enough to easily and freely trace out quite a wide ranging motion when using figure 8, where stiffer bulkier slings may feel unwieldy. For other techniques then maybe the pliability is not as needed. I'm not saying this is fact, but it seems plausible to me.

Fair enough that there is a point of having cords "stiff enough". 
Although, I would wager that if one made a sling with a rod as the retention cord, other than a strange feel after release, the sling would operate best for the power stroke to the release... I sense another test and video may be looming


JudoP wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2021 at 2:22pm:

As for cords getting out of the way of the projectile as it leaves the pouch, if you check out David's clips earlier you can see the projectiles exit out of the side of the pouch which dodges the issue.

It does exit out of the side and front of the pouch. But from the frames that I was looking at, there was still some cord interference during the final moments of exit on the back-side of the projectile.  I've looked at a number of slo-mo videos of my own, as well as Davids, and some cord intereference always seems to be present for a short time (at least in my sling designs).  The slings that have the least interference are the lightest and most flexible release cords. This is from a limited set of data (Maybe a couple dozen throws total), but consistent within the data I've examined.  But I have limited it to one style, and about 3 slings.  Perhaps there are differences if the wrist motion changed during the power-stroke. There would likely be differences with sling length too. I only used 24-28" slings.

Edit: This video actually shows it pretty well, if you go frame by frame. The back-end of the projectile is in contact with the release cord. This is my experience with the slings I use.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMWnjHKbZRM

If you look at the strands, they are crossed in both throws with the no-core paracord sling (red) vs. not crossed with the regular paracord (blue).

---

HAHAHA. Oops. Joe I just went back and watched the intro. I had it backwards. Blue is the floppy one (edit: blue has the core removed). It is the one that isn't twisted.

So, maybe I'm just full of hot air. LOL.

Nice video Joe!

It looked like a very slight lag on the blue one compared to the red... maybe?  I didn’t see any twist differences, but a small timing lag could possibly be explained by the difference in weight on the coreless paracord rather than the difference in stiffness. It’s another variable to consider at least.

@IronGoober - That was a good catch either way.  I didn't notice that twist happening.  The leather of the blue pouch is a bit thicker than the red one.  That could be contributing to the lack of twist.  Although I never would have guessed that happening.  Whether a pouch was rigid or not, I'd think it would twist the cords the same.

I have some more in that same piece of blue leather.  I can cut out another pouch and try to get the slings as identical as possible except for the core strands.



NooneOfConsequence wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2021 at 9:14pm:

It looked like a very slight lag on the blue one compared to the red... maybe?

I definitely felt that way when using it.  Not in the release, but just getting it going.

Maybe slings are like bikes... we think we know how they work because we can watch them in action, but we really don't.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWsK6rmsKSI

Nice video Joe. The slow motion worked perfectly for showing what was really going on.

Here's my problem with this whole idea... we are debating on cords as they are while not in motion. This is not the same thing as a cord stretched tight under tension. 

Hypothetically it shouldn't matter since if you do the throw the same everytime it should have the same number of turns and twists. I've honestly never had a problem with paracord. This whole thread just seems to reinforce my own experience.

I like the idea of having just enough stiffness to get the job done. Anymore than that makes the sling increasingly unwieldy.

If your strings already stay taut with just the tension of the stone laying in the pouch
your strings will stay even more taut when they are under the tension of the slinging action.

The way I test the tautness is by placing a stone in the cradle of the sling, letting it hang from my hand
and then twisting my wrist, and seeing how immediately the cradle+stone reacts to the movement of the wrist

AncientCraftwork wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2021 at 5:12am:

The way I test the tautness is by placing a stone in the cradle of the sling, letting it hang from my hand and then twisting my wrist, and seeing how immediately the cradle+stone reacts to the movement of the wrist

That's an interesting test.  I did that with both slings I used in the video that I posted, and also a balearic hemp sling I have from walter as a comparison.  The responsiveness to the initial wrist movement seemed to be about the same for all of them.  There could be a difference, but I'm not seeing it.  Where I do see a difference is after the wrist rotation stops.  The thick corded sling balances out quickly and comes to a stop after only a couple of oscillations (not sure if that's the correct term when it's a rotational movement).  The pouch of the paracord slings have that slight rotation back and forth 4 - 6 times before coming to a stop.

joe_meadmaker wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2021 at 1:18pm:

AncientCraftwork wrote on Jan 23rd, 2021 at 5:12am: The way I test the tautness is by placing a stone in the cradle of the sling, letting it hang from my hand and then twisting my wrist, and seeing how immediately the cradle+stone reacts to the movement of the wrist That's an interesting test.  I did that with both slings I used in the video that I posted, and also a balearic hemp sling I have from walter as a comparison.  The responsiveness to the initial wrist movement seemed to be about the same for all of them.  There could be a difference, but I'm not seeing it.  Where I do see a difference is after the wrist rotation stops.  The thick corded sling balances out quickly and comes to a stop after only a couple of oscillations (not sure if that's the correct term when it's a rotational movement).  The pouch of the paracord slings have that slight rotation back and forth 4 - 6 times before coming to a stop.

I hadn't seen your reply. You performed the test correctly. You indeed also have to note difference after the wrist rotation stops, that is equally important to this test. Ideally you want your sling to have a near immediate response to the wrist and very little oscillation afterwards. I believe there is an optimal projectile weight and density for every sling where this response to the wrist is near immediate and the oscillations afterwards nearly non existent. This optimal projectile weight would again change if you were to change the length of your length, and its thickness and stiffness.

I made a sling for 90 gram wrought iron balls. The cords are of paracord and the pouch is a tiny, just two overlapping pieces of leather that forms a small cup that holds the small iron ball. Performing this test the sling shows it to be very fit for this ammo, there is immediate response to the wrist and almost zero osscilation afterwards. However, if I were to make the sling twice as long, results may differ and for optimalization the cord might have to be made stiffer again. Same if I were to use a heavier steel ball.  The density of the projectile and center of gravity of the projectile also plays a role in this.

A sphere is by all means the most stable projectile on the sling cords, due to the center of gravity being exactly in the middle, with equal weight division in all directions. A sphere does not have ''weight hanging outside the pouch'', it's all concentrated in the center of the pouch. A sling made for spheres however tend to be different from a sling made for glandes which again can be different than a sling made solely for stones. A sling made for smooth spheres can and should utilize some sort of cupping for reasons of internal ballistics and the rolling nature of a sphere. Preponed releases usually happen in the final flick of the wrist, which can send a shockwave to the sling's pouch. If the projectile is not cradled securely enough to handle this final acceleration, a dangerous preponed release can happen. The only way to cradle a round iron ball securely enough in my experience is a cupped pouch.

Again if you increase the density of the projectile, this seems to tolerate the useage of thinner-strings for equal optimal performance regarding pouch orientation. This also explains why Balearic slings are very thick, and some roman sling depictions also, and also why people prefer to use big stones for strap slings. If you are throwing low density stones you tend to go for a heavier weight, which then again requires the use of a thicker sling for optimalization regarding wrist control of the string twist and oscillation afterwards. Lower density stones are larger, and if they are oblong, have more weight ''hanging outside the pouch''. The more oblong a projectile is, the less stable the sling cords become, thus the thicker and/or stiffer they have to be. I once tried to make 400g long oblong clay glandes. These were like 15-20 cm long so a very large part of their ends were hanging outside the pouch. It was impossible to prevent the sling cords from twisting on themselves during the slinging, so control over the pouch orientation was impossible.

This is why for fist sized projectiles. I prefer them to be more in shape of the 'Assyrian sling stones found at Lachish' and not oblong like we would like for lower weight stones and glandes. The  cords of a sling would have to be very very thick and stiff to prevent 400g clay pointy obloids from twisting the cords. A small high density sphere on the other hand seems to handle the thinnest cords when it comes to pouch orientation control, because of the high density and the spherical shape. So technically its possible for a thin, round corded sling to provide more pouch angle orientation control than even the thickest stiffest Balearic sling, granted that the former uses high density spheres and the latter uses crude stones.

If you want to achieve peak accuracy, it would require this technically superior and well thought-out sling, perfectly fine tuned to the uniform ammo you would be slinging, so that the pouch orientation control is to the wrist is immediate, and there are zero twist-oscilliations afterwards. Not too much, not too little, just perfect. Combine that sling with a lot of practice and you could become mythically accurate. But you sacrifice being able to sling the crude stone laying in the dirt. and that latter aspect may be worth more than the mythical accuracy.

The question remains, do we want to figure this out all exactly, like they did with archery, and calculated the perfect spines and all of that, and put it down on paper? It would take a lot of time and testing. I do not think it's worth it to pin it down to an exact science. It's good enough to know the principles, and let our instinct and feeling figure out the rest

AncientCraftwork wrote on Feb 1^st, 2021 at 6:48am:

The question remains, do we want to figure this out all exactly, like they did with archery, and calculated the perfect spines and all of that, and put it down on paper? It would take a lot of time and testing. I do not think it's worth it to pin it down to an exact science. It's good enough to know the principles, and let our instinct and feeling figure out the rest

I have a plan for a very in depth video (from a layman's point of view) on what I've learned about slinging. It will go into detail. I agree with some of the points you've said. In fact some points sound very familiar lol. This is a good topic.

So question for you Jauke, why would a sphere need a different style pouch than a glande? Just curious about your thoughts.

It's more for practical reasons. You can put a sphere in a flat pouches and sling it if you are very careful. Many flat pouches have some give and will cup the sphere to a degree. However some flat pouches are stiff-flat, slinging a sphere with those is asking for trouble, especially if you are slinging far and with power. Placing my wrought iron balls in some of my stone-slings is asking for broken windows and accidents. The balls require a specific sling, one that cups it reliabily, so the balls do not fly out of the pouch before I intended. Because of the smooth rolling action of an iron ball the cupping does not result in a late release at all. Any other shape than a sphere however does not roll as readily and thus does not really benefit from a cupped pouch, on the contrary. However a case could be made for perfectly round lead glandes (round biconical) these are also very slippery and could benefit from some cupping to get that extra friction and grip.
Because stones are seldom perfectly round, a flat-pouch is better suited for stones. That's also why they flattened out lead glans a bit, so they retained better in relatively flat pouched slings.

AncientCraftwork wrote on Feb 1^st, 2021 at 6:48am:

The question remains, do we want to figure this out all exactly, like they did with archery, and calculated the perfect spines and all of that, and put it down on paper? It would take a lot of time and testing. I do not think it's worth it to pin it down to an exact science. It's good enough to know the principles, and let our instinct and feeling figure out the rest

In my opinion the sling is far, far more complicated than archery!

What this very interesting thread is now tackling is deeply bound up with interactions between a whole host of rotational degrees of behavior which are unavoidable in the sling, at least as used by a human being. The balance between all these behaviors (ie. how much they matter) depends on very individual slinger and sling and projectile characteristics, so we have to ponder very carefully which of those behaviors we are discussing

Some of the features are fairly easy to state in a way that we might all be able to agree on. I think the easiest to get a handle on is the tendency of the cords to twist.

I think we might all agree that twisting under tension is bad - I'm not sure I can see an benefit to it, at any rate.

We all know that if we put a weight on the end of a hanging old-fashioned ie. 'laid' rope it will untwist and the suspended rope will untwist more the heavier the weight we put on it. So we are converting a tension in the rope to a twisting movement or motion.

We still get the same effect if you hang a weight from a pair of parallel ropes with the same direction of lay, but now the amount of twist depends on how far apart the ropes are. You could, however, kill the tendency to twist by using a pair of oppositely laid but otherwise identical ropes!

Now look at what a braided sling cord is. It's a set of almost invariably pre-twisted strands all with the same direction of lay.

When we put them into a braid, the braid structure itself usually cancels the twisting tendencies of the individual strands to a great extent, but there is usually some left over - for an odd number of strands it's virtually certain there is. This does, however, result in much less twist under the same weight. because the tendency is now spread over the cross-section of the braid, analogous to having the pair of ropes mentioned above being further apart.

Sorry if this comes across as confusing or pointless, or excites any other number of adverse reactions. I'm doing the best I can to explain my thinking!

It also depends on what style we use. If we sling ''Greek style'' without multipe rotations,  and use a wide grip like depicted on the coins,, then you can likely get away with a ''little less responsive-to-the-wrist sling and ammo combination'', because you are not using multiple rotations that constantly rotates the pouch. I like to think this being partly the reasoning behind this style. With Greek style the pouch rotates around its axis only once and that's it. We also see the Etruscan slinging this way (we suppose.)

Whenever I have a thin sling, and only a stone too heavy for the cords (as it results in the cords twisting round each other during a multiple rotation wind up) I automatically switch a Greek style throw and that often results in a pretty good rifled release, even though the stone is not optimally weighted for the sling. So if you don't use a wind up you lower the threshold on the cord stiff/thickness required (for a good rifle spin)  I believe.

AncientCraftwork wrote on Feb 1^st, 2021 at 10:30am:

It also depends on what style we use. If we sling ''Greek style'' without multipe rotations,  and use a wide grip like depicted on the coins,, then you can likely get away with a ''little less responsive-to-the-wrist sling and ammo combination'', because you are not using multiple rotations that constantly rotates the pouch. I like to think this being partly the reasoning behind this style. With Greek style the pouch rotates around its axis only once and that's it. We also see the Etruscan slinging this way (we suppose.) Whenever I have a thin sling, and only a stone too heavy for the cords (as it results in the cords twisting round each other during a multiple rotation wind up) I automatically switch a Greek style throw and that often results in a pretty good rifled release, even though the stone is not optimally weighted for the sling. So if you don't use a wind up you lower the threshold on the cord stiff/thickness required (for a good rifle spin)  I believe.

Here is an example. This is a crap sling by all definitions, it has thin uneven twisted cords, with a 300g oblong rock loaded in it, which is way too heavy for it.

Trying to use a multiple-rotation Balearic style with this crap sling and this rock is a complete disaster. Keeping the cords taut and separated is an impossible task during the wind up.

But when I use a no-wind up Greek-style, this terrible sling deals with this big stone much better. Not perfect, but still noticeable better than trying to use this oversized rock in this undersized sling with multiple rotations.

If you don't have access to a good braided sling or well-weighted rocks, switching to a no-wind up Greek style seems only logical and very pragmatic too, because you can make use of more rocks in your sling. This is probably why this style was quite popular in the past. It seems to make up for some issues that are innate to simple slings, issues which proper Balearic slings engineered away, but not all peoples had this technology.

There is a case to be made for multiple wind ups too. I read that it can be helpful in gauging the stone weight and this helps accuracy. The Balearic sling approached this problem so well and it's probably the best trad design ever for multiple rotation styles.

---

I just posted my trash sling video a few minutes ago.  The final version of the sling used a single strand from the guts of some paracord (left over from the bullwhip I made a few weeks ago).  It's about as floppy as it could possibly be, but I will say that it definitely shot better than the first trash sling with stiff, springy cordage made from a soda bottle.  Obviously neither one should ever be considered a serious example of a sling though ;D

J you have a lot of interesting insight so maybe I can get your opinion on something? Have you used beeswax and if so do you feel like it helps with more than durability? I've wondered for awhile, and ya this might sound strange, but perhaps it cuts down on wind resistance and increases speed. Sort of like waxing a surfboard to make it slip through the water better? Any thoughts? Anyone can respond just curious.

If these sounds plausible is there a way to test how much faster it throws? I once waxed a sling a ton, it had layers built up on it and I swear it must have thrown a good 20% further. Didn't understand it then but it makes sense no?

Hmmm... interesting theory Morphy. Along those same lines, a higher strand count braid should have more divots along the braid, which would break up the turbulence the same way dimples on a golf ball do.

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Feb 1^st, 2021 at 3:18pm:

Hmmm... interesting theory Morphy. Along those same lines, a higher strand count braid should have more divots along the braid, which would break up the turbulence the same way dimples on a golf ball do.

You know as crazy as that sounds that is a fascinating theory.

Wax also affects the weight which might change throwing dynamics somewhat. I'm gonna experiment more with waxing slings over the coming months, I think it's a fair bet that in my neck of the woods you historically would have had a waxed sling because well, it rains, a lot.
It's a nice way to shore up durability too, though for me it doesn't seem to stick well with these tough grass fibres (sisal, manila etc), it's more applicable to hemp and the like.

The highest velocity and range I get is with lines of #225 paracord tied to a flat rectangular strip of belt leather for a pouch, with slit or no slit, length of the cords 85 cm to pouch. Can't on comment on wax cause I am not very familiar with it. I use a byzantine or greek throw because these thin cords do not like a multi-rotational wind up.

Right now I have categorized slinging into 2 schools of thought/factions in my head; Balearic and Greek. All the other types of slings and schools of thought are somewhat derivatives from these two and fall somewhere between on the spectrum.

- The Balearic school of slinging focuses primarily on a throw with a multi rotational wind up, and thus their sling is engineered for this. Their characteristics are unique; the interesting tapered release cord, the whip crack, a unique integral split pouch, a square or flat braid, their slings will never twist around each other during a multi rotational wind up. In fact, they can even sling with the cords next to each other in the hand and still get rifled shots. Wide grips (with ring finger) are a rarity, with most slingers of this school of thought putting the fingerloop on their middle or index finger. Their slings have great short range accuracy but they sacrifice speed and range for controllability. Users of this type will swear by the superiority of their design. Of course their slings can also be used without multiple rotations, but this is not what they are engineered for.

- The Greek school of thought on slings focus primarily on range and velocity. The slings in this faction are generally thinner and longer, as we can see on their coins and depictions, and they're not not engineered for a multi rotational throw but for a Byzantine or Greek cast. Their slings vary in shape and size but they all share similarities: a lack of a tapered release cord, often a tied or sewn leather pouch, and generally longer and thinner cords, which can be twisted, flat braided, or round braided, but all relatively light and thin. Often a knot or release node is used, but sometimes the cord is just held. A wide grip is common with this school of thought, with most slingers opting for a middle or ringfinger loop. Advocates of this group can't understand why anyone would opt for a thick and slow Balearic sling  :P.
Many modern single cord paracord slings fall in this category when it comes to characteristics. Of course these slings can also be used with rotations but this can result in the cords twisting when heavy stones are used. Are they inherently less accurate than Balearic slings? I've yet to find out.

AncientCraftwork wrote on Feb 1^st, 2021 at 3:43pm:

The highest velocity and range I get is with lines of #225 paracord tied to a flat rectangular strip of belt leather for a pouch, with slit or no slit, length of the cords 85 cm to pouch. Can't on comment on wax cause I am not very familiar with it. I use a byzantine or greek throw because these thin cords do not like a multi-rotational wind up.

If the #225 doesn't resist twisting, then maybe you should try putting a bundle of feathers on the edges of your leather pouch J.  If you add wind drag in just the right way, you might be able to simulate a thick Balearic-style cord's anti-twist functionality without all of the extra weight.

Wow... this thread is getting interesting for sure. Pro tips.

There's a lot of interesting ideas and it makes me wonder where the point of diminishing returns is. So for example, if the dimples do add  speed or some benefit and the wax does but the wax fills in the dimples at what point is there a balance between the two where you get the best of both worlds? And could you potentially add the feathers which would slow it down but add stability? In a sense you increase the speed just to decrease it to normal levels while getting more stability as opposed to it slowing the sling down for the stability?

Second question NOOC, which feathers would be best?

AncientCraftwork wrote on Feb 1^st, 2021 at 4:02pm:

Right now I have categorized slinging into 2 schools of thought/factions in my head; Balearic and Greek. All the other types of slings and schools of thought are somewhat derivatives from these two and fall somewhere between on the spectrum. - The Balearic school of slinging focuses primarily on a throw with a multi rotational wind up, and thus their sling is engineered for this. Their characteristics are unique; the interesting tapered release cord, the whip crack, a unique integral split pouch, a square or flat braid, their slings will never twist around each other during a multi rotational wind up. In fact, they can even sling with the cords next to each other in the hand and still get rifled shots. Wide grips (with ring finger) are a rarity, with most slingers of this school of thought putting the fingerloop on their middle or index finger. Their slings have great short range accuracy but they sacrifice speed and range for controllability. Users of this type will swear by the superiority of their design. Of course their slings can also be used without multiple rotations, but this is not what they are engineered for. - The Greek school of thought on slings focus primarily on range and velocity. The slings in this faction are generally thinner and longer, as we can see on their coins and depictions, and they're not not engineered for a multi rotational throw but for a Byzantine or Greek cast. Their slings vary in shape and size but they all share similarities: a lack of a tapered release cord, often a tied or sewn leather pouch, and generally longer and thinner cords, which can be twisted, flat braided, or round braided, but all relatively light and thin. Often a knot or release node is used, but sometimes the cord is just held. A wide grip is common with this school of thought, with most slingers opting for a middle or ringfinger loop. Advocates of this group can't understand why anyone would opt for a thick and slow Balearic sling  :P. Many modern single cord paracord slings fall in this category when it comes to characteristics. Of course these slings can also be used with rotations but this can result in the cords twisting when heavy stones are used. Are they inherently less accurate than Balearic slings? I've yet to find out.

You absolutely nailed the part where you described what each side thought of the other. I've noticed that generally, those who subscribe to the Balearic school of thought understand why one would subscribe the the Greek school of thought but don't think it's as effective. On the other hand, those who subscribe to the Greek school of thought (I've noticed they mainly use paracord), seriously don't understand why one would use a thick, bulky, beefy, and "heavy" sling. They normally want their slings to be as light as possible. Of course, these are mere generalizations but it's what I have picked up on.

It's really about control of variables.  If you improve the aerodynamics of the cord itself by waxing it (maybe even putting dimples in the wax itself if you fill all the holes in the weave?), then at some point the sling rotation becomes unstable, because there's no wind drag to keep the cords in alignment.  Himalayan wool slings are a good example of a design that was probably optimized over hundreds or thousands of years for a specific environment.  You're going to get less wind drag at higher altitudes, so the wide cord with the spongy wool creates more drag and helps stabilize the throw in the rarefied mountain air.  A Himalayan sling won't throw the same way at sea level because of the extra drag. 

As far as feathers and thin cordage goes... If you put just enough drag back in to maintain stability, then you might hit that perfect sweet spot.  You might also have to play around with where to put the feathers.  Maybe the best place is halfway up the cord instead of at the pouch?  I'm not sure.

As far as which feathers to use, I would maybe look at owl or hawk feathers first.  Any bird that makes sudden direction changes mid-air has to have the ability to dissipate a lot of energy fast.  I'm no expert, but I'd guess that you need to pay attention not only to what bird the feather is from but also what part of the bird the feather comes from, because different feathers serve different purposes in flight.

I've got a few waxed slings and aside from increasing weight and durability, waxing trades moisture/humidity sensitivity for temperature sensitivity. Waxed slings particularly don't like the cold, becoming stiff and uncomfortable to use.

I'm currently making sling with twisted cords to get back in touch with the "Greek school of thought" for comparisons sake. Although, my Balearic slings are comparatively thin anyway for efficiency and greater range.

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Feb 1^st, 2021 at 4:14pm:

AncientCraftwork wrote on Feb 1st, 2021 at 3:43pm: The highest velocity and range I get is with lines of #225 paracord tied to a flat rectangular strip of belt leather for a pouch, with slit or no slit, length of the cords 85 cm to pouch. Can't on comment on wax cause I am not very familiar with it. I use a byzantine or greek throw because these thin cords do not like a multi-rotational wind up. If the #225 doesn't resist twisting, then maybe you should try putting a bundle of feathers on the edges of your leather pouch J.  If you add wind drag in just the right way, you might be able to simulate a thick Balearic-style cord's anti-twist functionality without all of the extra weight.

You can think of weird gimmicks like that if you want to keep using multi rotations but the Greek method of casting seems to solve the issue. I want to sling like this for a while and see how good I get at it. It allows me to use really heavy stones even on a #225 cord thickness sling without any real problems and will sling these much further than a fat sling or all leather sling, the same for lighter stones of course. This free gain in power/range is just too good, without requiring more energy in the cast.

What appeals to me about it is much simpler, yet more efficient. I would say slings of the Greek school of thought were more popular around the world because they're basically just two thin strings tied to a piece of hide. Not saying everyone didn't use rotations, many probably did, but the Greek method seems to work best for it, because the cords do not have those Balearic qualities. What is interesting though is some of those native slings from those Tropical Islanders (Samoa? Hawaii? Can't think of the name rn) actually are quite similar to Balearic slings, so the design wasn't just only used on the Balears.

You are correct in identifying these two schools, though, I feel ammo size/weight is a more important factor than slinging style in this distinction. I find paracord slings absolutely fine for a multi rotation throw, even with quite long slings but it wouldn't be my first choice for a 300g oblong stone.

AncientCraftwork wrote on Feb 1^st, 2021 at 5:04pm:

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Feb 1st, 2021 at 4:14pm: AncientCraftwork wrote on Feb 1st, 2021 at 3:43pm: The highest velocity and range I get is with lines of #225 paracord tied to a flat rectangular strip of belt leather for a pouch, with slit or no slit, length of the cords 85 cm to pouch. Can't on comment on wax cause I am not very familiar with it. I use a byzantine or greek throw because these thin cords do not like a multi-rotational wind up. If the #225 doesn't resist twisting, then maybe you should try putting a bundle of feathers on the edges of your leather pouch J.  If you add wind drag in just the right way, you might be able to simulate a thick Balearic-style cord's anti-twist functionality without all of the extra weight. You can think of weird gimmicks like that if you want to keep using multi rotations but the Greek method of casting seems to solve the issue.

Gimmick?! It is basic control theory. Negative feedback (drag) improves system stability. If you eliminate drag and then add it back in a controlled way, you can set your parameters with or without multiple rotations.

JudoP wrote on Feb 1^st, 2021 at 3:40pm:

Wax also affects the weight which might change throwing dynamics somewhat. I'm gonna experiment more with waxing slings over the coming months, I think it's a fair bet that in my neck of the woods you historically would have had a waxed sling because well, it rains, a lot. It's a nice way to shore up durability too, though for me it doesn't seem to stick well with these tough grass fibres (sisal, manila etc), it's more applicable to hemp and the like.

Yes I would imagine so. Sisal has a weird almost nylon fishing line texture. Super abrasion resistant but maybe not quite the best for speed wax.

I took a bucket of stones to a lake and I did some slinging. I also slung some rubber balls at home. I used Greek style.
The slings I took for testing were all simple. Just synthetic cords of various thicknesses tied to leather strip pouch. These have few of the qualities that make a good sling I talked so much about in this thread. Like with my past experience, using multiple rotations does not work the best using these slings. The Greek style I used works great with them though. The lack of multiple rotations really does do the trick for these limp, long or short, thin, zero taper slings. Control over the pouch orientation and consistency thereof was excellent, and the range in stone selection in weight very good.

Not a single time did my release cord interfer with the stone, It did not show any sign of damage. All action happened on the leather of the pouch, I could see the exit marks on the pouch, there releases swift and spiraled, like they should. I did use multiple rotations a few times using these slings, and the stone exits were more unpredictable often at times. Some buzzed really hard, indicating to me a bad spin angle.

When I sling, I took a very aware approach to what's going with the sling and with the projectile when I sling. Even with bad stones there is very little buzzing using the Greek cast, the stones fly taut and spiral like a bullet.

And all the while it required no smart engineering of the sling itself, to tackle some of these problems, that come with using multiple rotations. The Greek method bypasses many of these issues.

Accuracy and range were excellent to my sight. I wish I had a better place where I could film this and show it to you guys. My old place where I used to got cut down. It was a spruce forest. Now I haven't got a good place to setup a camera. I have to sling in stealth. Maybe one day

Here is another experience from a week ago. I was walking out. There were 2 geese on a field, around 40 meters away. I placed a stone in my cradle. The sling I had was the thick braided Balearic style sling, fit for the multiple rotation Balaeric style I use with that sling. I placed a stone in the sling, and got ready to throw. I extended my arm and started rotating. Less than 2 rotations in and the movement scared them off, away they flew. This experience showed to me the importance to a quick and swift no-wind up style.

Of course we can't truly be sure they did not use multiple rotations but I am quite confident they didn't. Just like it's inviting to sling the Balearic way when you use a Balearic sling. I consider Figure 8 and ''Byzantine'' to be in the same family of styles as the Greek method. Just like I consider Helicopter and Balearic style to be relatives to each other.

Jauke... I think we may have to say there’s at least two tricks to a good sling now. When the thread started it was about cord stiffness, but now you’re saying that the style and rotation is that one weird trick to make slinging magical. I’m not sure I really understand what we’re even talking about anymore.

The one thing I am pretty sure about is that you need to attach some feathers to one side of the leather. It should make the slinging experience better than ever... magical even!

Here's the thing... it sounds odd but I'm sure it also sounded odd to the first arrow makers to attach feathers as well. It costs nothing to try and if someone did figure out there's something to it , it would pretty much be their legacy here. I might get around to trying it some day who knows. My legacy is sh1t as it is.

Sounds like you are trying to add tassles.

Tassels might have a similar drag effect but I think the weight is too much. You should be able to observe the effect with a modern phone camera running 240 fps. It would probably help to glue a little glitter to the feathers too so they catch the light better.

I am not sure if you are serious or joking, I think the latter. I am not going to put feathers on my sling, or plastic vanes on the pouch or any of that. For the same reason I do not limit myself to only one set size of uniform ammo, I prefer being able to sling stones of various weights and sizes. If I do want to use multiple rotation style,  I think the Balearic sling is the way to go, they got it engineered for it pretty well. But there are other reasons I want to get away from multiple rotations anyway. Aside from the reduced movement, movement that scares birds, I find the lack of multiple rotations greatly reduce the chance of an odd stone from flipping out of the pouch. It is twirling that comes with multiple rotations that rock the stone back and forth in the pouch and that rocking back and forth some times leads to the suboptimal projectile to fall out. Again, Balaeric sling's solve that by using a grip that's not too wide and due to their overall design, which their sling permits without losing too much control over the pouch orientation, so if you want to use a multiple rotation style, I still recommend a proper Balaeric sling.

Hmm thats a bit harsh J. Im definitely warming up to trying something different NOOC. Actually, kind of embarrassed after reading Jaukes post but I was planning on building a feather sling tonight...

Harsh? I honestly wasn't sure if NOC was serious either. Especially given the constant trolling you two are always up to.   

For shame :)

But, I don't think drag is the issue here. Nor will it help. The sling has enough drag as it is. Plus, there have been designs with fins to try and maintain pouch orientation using drag. I didn't see much follow up, so I'm assuming they didn't work to well. Makes sense given the rotation along the cord axis that the sling has to go through, due to wrist action. Adding more drag is just going to disrupt your timing and rob the shot of power.  I will gladly eat my words if someone shows me otherwise, however.

The reason I don't want to add vanes or feathers to my slings is because I am trying to escape all that complexity. I started out slinging as a kid because I couldn't afford a bow or make a proper one. Slings provided a  simple alternative. Now Balaeric slings are a little less simple. Still simple but not assimple. They are a little more technical. I like simplicity. It's what drew me to slings. Now I rediscover I don't need all those Balaeric-style elements if I just settle for a style without miultiple rotations, which I wanted anyway for other reasons too, so now I can go back to the simple slings I started out with as a kid, slightly improved of course. So I will have gone full circle !

Well I'm not convinced either IG. I have the same reservations as anyone. If someone does make one and shows a side by side of groupings between normal and feather/tassel it would be interesting.

As far as trolling I prefer to call it Virtuous Conversation Starting. If I troll it's never meant maliciously. If this really was a troll you would have to have probably 4-5 people together to pull that off because that's how many people have expressed an interest in private to me. Sounds too close to work to me to do that often.

That being said I'm sure something good will come out of this testing either way.

As far as aerodynamics... It may be a bit silly, but there’s obviously a lot of unknowns still. I haven't seen active discussions about vanes or controlled drag since I've been on the forum, and it might be interesting to see how things play out.

It might not even be me first . I've heard from several people. But ya I'm down. Call this a social experiment.

So this is exciting
The white ''crap'' sling is like the one I used for the experiment when I started this thread. It's very similar to paracord without innercore because it's likewise machine round braided nylon cord without a core. It's completely floppy without any stiffness whatsoever. The sling below is a 2mm twisted lightly waxed hemp cord with a woven pouch. Likewise very floppy and tangly. Both slings have almost no resistance to tangling, even with light stones and short cords, and a wide grip. Trying to use these slings with multiple rotations is terrible.  Forget controlling the pouch orientation whatsoever when you use multiple rotations. That's what I did when I made this thread. Using these ultra thin and floppy slings with Balearic style and judging their performance by that. Because  I was using Balaeric so much lately that it became my only reference point for judging a slings capabilities.

but here is where it gets interesting. As I now expected, when I use the Greek Style, these slings work absolutely fine, even with heavy stones, because of the lack of multiple rotations. Spiralled and rifled shots are no problem, and I can't find them to be inherently any less accurate.

If you study what happens to the pouch when you perform the multiple rotations that come with Balaeric style or Helicopter.  You see that on a cerain point in the rotation of the sling and your wrist, the pouch does a rapid turn around its axis. That turn can result in the cord twisting on itself after a few rotations. It ususally doesn't happen on the first. That's why Greek Style seems to be exempt from this problem. Byzantine and figure 8 as well to a lesser degree. It also explains why multiple-rotation slings are build like they are, to cope with this turning of the pouch when using multiple rotations.

Also, see the large tabs I have on the end of the release cords. I want to experiment with this further more on slings of this nature. On a Balaeric sling, a big knot or tab never worked for me. The release end had to be smooth and tapered like the cord to transfer the energy. When we look at the Balearic sling, we note the belly on the release cord, and stones have a tendency to run up the belly and exit from the side. That's partly why their slings crack so loud, because the stone transfers some energy to release cord.
In contrast, with slings that I call of the ''Greek school of thought'', these slings generally have all the internal ballistics happen inside the pouch, and not on the release cord. Therefor the release cord can be thin and untapered, and a tab or something bigger to hold on to than just the cord can work quite well. Except that a tab can flop out and about after a throw, but by then the projectile will already long be gone out of the pouch.

---

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4VwbJ8f7bE

If you watch closely, a lot of Balearic slingers (but not all of them) twirl around a lot, but they don't go straight into the shot from a helicopter motion.  The actual throw takes the pouch up above the head and then into the shot sort of like a vertical version of a Byzantine throw.

Yes, but still their throw follows from a sling that is already being twirled before hand. While using Greek, and Byzantine and figure 8 to a lesser degree, the throw starts from a static point.

I am not saying its impossible to get tautbess from thin and floppy cords when using multiple rotations, but it requires more attention to certain variables that include a smaller limit on the range of possible projectile weights, and sling length, so  it's generally harder to achieve. Too hard to bother with, so in my opinion it's better to swap to a Balaeric design if you want to keep on using multiple rotations, in my opinion, or use Byzantine, Figure 8 and my preference, Greek style if you want to use thin and floppy cords.  The benefit being that such a sling is overall simpler in construction, cheaper, and a more efficient pendelum.

Similarily I am not saying that cord stiffness plays no role anymore at all if you simply swap to a no-multiple-rotation style, it still does, but to a very great deal less.

AncientCraftwork wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2021 at 10:12am:

Yes, but still their throw follows from a sling that is already being twirled before hand. While using Greek, and Byzantine and figure 8 to a lesser degree, the throw starts from a static point. I am not saying its impossible to get tautbess from thin and floppy cords when using multiple rotations, but it requires more attention to certain variables that include a smaller limit on the range of possible projectile weights, and sling length, so  it's generally harder to achieve. Similarily I am not saying that cord stiffness plays no role anymore at all if you simply swap to a no-rotation style, it still does, but to a very great deal less.

We need actual testing with a falsifiable hypothesis. So many absolute statements have been made over the last ...oh...15 years? But a ton especially over the last year.

If this was a subject I wasn’t invested in I would just nod and listen. No point debating things that mean nothing to me. But primitive weapons have been my life for 30 years. So if I give pushback on these types of statements it’s not because I think they are all bogus, but that they should not be written as well accepted fact.

I mean...you can do that...but without “some” type of reproducible, falsifiable testing that we can all test and see for ourselves I’m afraid this simply confuses newer slingers and frustrates older ones. I’ve been as guilty as anyone of this in the past but these days I try to limit such statements.

Rigid dogma or worse, guesses, help no one. Don’t mean that to be harsh but Lord only knows how many lurkers have read such changing theories and left more confused than when they started. This helps no one.

For my part Ill try to be more careful as well.    

As to the question, how sure are we that the cords ARE floppy? Has testing been done? I know what you are thinking...just pick up the cord and look at it Morphy.

Great...has anyone actually tested rigidity with actual numbers while under load? No, didn’t think so. For all we know a paracord cord and a Balaeric cord have similar levels of rigidity when under the stress of an 8 oz stone spinning at 100 mph. Does it make sense that they are more floppy during the shot. Sure. But we dont know!

We have some engineers here this should be easy as pie to get generalized results on. 

I am not saying its impossible to get tautbess from thin and floppy cords when using multiple rotations, but it requires more attention to certain variables that include a smaller limit on the range of possible projectile weights, and sling length, so  it's generally harder to achieve.   

Cmon... I could just as easily say that Baleric slings create more wind resistance and therefore are slower and more inefficient as well as handle lighter ammo worse since so much of the weight you are spinning is not the stone itself.  That’s a completely resonable position. But it’s just an opinion.

Now, please understand... I am not claiming “anything” you are saying is wrong. But it’s purely conjecture. I’m sorry J. I know this may come off as harsh but this is incredibly frustrating to those of us who are trying to actually progress in our understanding. You’ve brought so many good things to this forum, but this is one thing I can absolutely do without. From anyone for that matter.

Maybe just don’t make the statements sound so absolute so newer people don’t get confused...                                                                                 :-? :-? :-?

Morphy I disagree with you. What is the purpose of this site if these things are not discussed? I share my experiences. My experiences are mine and I place them here for others to read, theirs might differ, or theirs might completely align and some people may become consciously aware of things they might already knew and were just not very aware of.
What I share does not feel like new information, most of it seems to be known. I like to put it to words. English is not my native tongue. I try to avoid being too absolute, that's why I always say it's a specturm so on and so on. I feel like what I write helps me understand slings. People need to investigate it themselves and experiment. These discussions are the thing that makes this forum, in my opinion. I share things as I learn more about slings and their different types. That's all. If I learn I adjust. Now in contrast to the past I won't delete all these posts, I can understand that brings in confusion, I'd have no trouble understanding your critic if it would be about that, but not on this. In the end this is the internet and it is a shitty medium for discussing this, but I try to do my best I can because there is simply no one in probaly a 500 km radius that shares this interest.

@Jauke
I think it would go a long way to just add some qualifying statements like “I think”, “I believe”, or “I suspect” when you state a hypothesis. It also helps to occasionally revisit your ideas and say “I was right because...” or “I was wrong...”

I appreciate that you are sharing your journey with us, but it’s a bit jarring when one day you say “this is how it is” without any qualifying remarks, and then the next day you say just as confidently that the “one thing to slings” is something else entirely without skipping a beat.

It’s ok to argue for your theories, but please leave a little more room for subtlety and nuance too. Opinion is more than welcome, but for the purpose of advancing the art of the sling, hard data is even better.  That’s not always easy to do, but we would all do well to try to validate our theories with more than anecdotes. BTW J, This is not directed only at you, but everyone here.  We will all benefit from curiosity if it leads to repeatable results instead of “what’s good for me may not be good for you”.  That’s not super helpful.

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2021 at 1:36pm:

@Jauke I think it would go a long way to just add some qualifying statements like “I think”, “I believe”, or “I suspect” when you state a hypothesis. It also helps to occasionally revisit your ideas and say “I was right because...” or “I was wrong...” I appreciate that you are sharing your journey with us, but it’s a bit jarring when one day you say “this is how it is” without any qualifying remarks, and then the next day you say just as confidently that the “one thing to slings” is something else entirely without skipping a beat. It’s ok to argue for your theories, but please leave a little more room for subtlety and nuance too. Opinion is more than welcome, but for the purpose of advancing the art of the sling, hard data is even better.  That’s not always easy to do, but we would all do well to try to validate our theories with more than anecdotes. BTW J, This is not directed only at you, but everyone here.  We will all benefit from curiosity if it leads to repeatable results instead of “what’s good for me may not be good for you”.  That’s not super helpful.

Jauke you know I like you man. We’ve had talks. But it’s time to get this figured out. Previous posts were deleted because you felt you had been wrong and didn’t want to leave that to confuse others. I didn’t agree with the erasing of so many posts, most didn’t, but it was a noble sentiment at least. Here’s the thing. You are still confusing others. Full stop.

Please, by all means,  give opinions. But what you are saying don’t sound like opinions. They sound like long accepted, well known scientific fact that cannot be disputed.

Now look, you have to take other things into account. When Teg tells me ANYTHING about braiding I listen. But Teg knows his poopy like nobodies business. He’s earned that respect from me. When Jaegoor tells me something about slinging...ok that’s not a good example lol...but seriously Jaegoor is a World Champ. I LISTEN.  I listen every time with an open mind even if after careful consideration I am not yet convinced. And when he’s right about something, next time I listen more and talk less. The opposite is happening here.

Some of us have been slinging longer than you have likely been alive and we don’t sound anywhere near as definitive as you. We know there’s a lot we don’t know and we want to learn.

Again, please feel free, regardless of my last two posts to just post to your hearts content. But will you please, for the sake of new slingers, just be cognizant of how things are coming off.

That is literally all I am asking. Nothing more.

It may be confusing to others and come across as contradictionary. It does not me to me. I do not like to waste time and wait year before I share my findings when I am experimenting for a few days straight on. I always try to explain what is different.
Maybe I should just use ''I'' instead of ''you'' or ''we''. The only thing I am explaining is that ''The trick to a good sling'' still stands; ie, stiffer, denser, possibly thicker cords help to prevent pouch angle misalignment during a multiple-rotations sling throw ie Balearic style or Helicopter. Now in the case with Greek style, the pouch turns on its axis only once,  due to the lack of multiple rotations. This allows thinner, longer and less stiff cords without sacrificing pouch angle control all that much. And I always try to say you can still use multiple rotations on the floppiest sling you want,  you could even pinch both cords in a hand and swing that sling 1000 rpm and let go and say that's the way to do it if you want.  But I know there are some people here that do appreciate this talk because they are also out there slinging and some of it this might resonate

But if its not appreciated, I understand, and I will retreat from the public space, and share my findings personally with others , away from the prying eyes of beginner slingers, and keep the public forum for nothing significant. Maybe that is better.

AncientCraftwork wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2021 at 2:18pm:

But if its not appreciated, I understand, and I will retreat from the public space, and share my findings personally with others , away from the prying eyes of beginner slingers, and keep the public forum for nothing significant. Maybe that is better.

I appreciate all viewpoints.  Though especially ones that have done it themselves.  So I definitely want to see anything that's been proven experimentally.  Even more so if you film yourself and post it to youtube.

    I feel safe in saying that your posts are appreciated by the entire forum. 

AncientCraftwork wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2021 at 2:18pm:

But if its not appreciated, I understand, and I will retreat from the public space, and share my findings personally with others , away from the prying eyes of beginner slingers, and keep the public forum for nothing significant. Maybe that is better.

That response is exactly the opposite of what I said. I appreciate all your posts but I think the way you are phrasing things could be better.

Thats as simple as I can make it. You don't need to take off just because someone has an opposing viewpoint...

“As to the question, how sure are we that the cords ARE floppy? Has testing been done? I know what you are thinking...just pick up the cord and look at it Morphy.

Great...has anyone actually tested rigidity with actual numbers while under load? No, didn’t think so. For all we know a paracord cord and a Balaeric cord have similar levels of rigidity when under the stress of an 8 oz stone spinning at 100 mph. Does it make sense that they are more floppy during the shot. Sure. But we dont know!”


Ahhh....well. Sorry if I caused a bit of a flustercluck here. Was not my intention. And J I hope you don’t leave. Let’s just let this go for now.

But one thing I will take from this is to put my money where my mouth is. All it should take to get a general idea on floppy vs stiff is a fish scale, a sisal cord and a paracord. Swing around the weight at slinging speeds. Get a poundage for how much weight is on the cords at peak load. Then hang both at the given weight for that sling and test for lateral movement of the cords under similar loads. I suspect the difference will be minimal. But I am always ready to change my mind when it’s proven otherwise. So toss this one on the list of things to do. Let’s just get this figured out once and for all. 1 test can be worth more than 15 years of theory. Of that I am sure...

    

Rat Man wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2021 at 2:33pm:

I feel safe in saying that your posts are appreciated by the entire forum.

I second that.


Morphy wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2021 at 2:37pm:

AncientCraftwork wrote on Feb 3rd, 2021 at 2:18pm: But if its not appreciated, I understand, and I will retreat from the public space, and share my findings personally with others , away from the prying eyes of beginner slingers, and keep the public forum for nothing significant. Maybe that is better. That response is exactly the opposite of what I said. I appreciate all your posts but I think the way you are phrasing things could be better. Thats as simple as I can make it. You don't need to take off just because someone has an opposing viewpoint...

I also second that.  Many of us love a lively debate, and if we disagree with you, that does not mean we are rejecting you just because we aren't convinced of your ideas. 

When you say "this is how it is" over and over again while constantly changing what "it" is, there's not a lot of room for disagreement or discussion, so I find myself just tuning you out sometimes J.

If you aren't interested in a group conversation and all you want to do is share your strong viewpoints without having them tested or questioned by others, then I guess that's ok.  If everyone on the forum did that though, I would get really bored really fast.  I prefer to use debate to find the areas where I am wrong but blind to my wrongness so I can make corrections to my understanding. 

I also like to learn from other people, because life's too short to test everything out for yourself.  It's much more efficient to learn from other people when you can. 

What I really like about you Jauke is that you question conventions and assumptions that everyone else takes for granted.  Just please don't replace those stagnant traditions with new conventions that might be just as wrong.  Instead, let's all work together to get closer to the truth.   That's my dream for slinging.org

...and of course a little lively debate can also be quite entertaining too ;D

Morphy wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2021 at 3:18pm:

“As to the question, how sure are we that the cords ARE floppy? Has testing been done? I know what you are thinking...just pick up the cord and look at it Morphy. Great...has anyone actually tested rigidity with actual numbers while under load? No, didn’t think so. For all we know a paracord cord and a Balaeric cord have similar levels of rigidity when under the stress of an 8 oz stone spinning at 100 mph. Does it make sense that they are more floppy during the shot. Sure. But we dont know!” Ahhh....well. Sorry if I caused a bit of a flustercluck here. Was not my intention. And J I hope you don’t leave. Let’s just let this go for now. But one thing I will take from this is to put my money where my mouth is. All it should take to get a general idea on floppy vs stiff is a fish scale, a sisal cord and a paracord. Swing around the weight at slinging speeds. Get a poundage for how much weight is exerted. Then hang both at the given weight for that sling and test for lateral movement of the cords under similar loads. I suspect the difference will be minimal. But I am always ready to change my mind when it’s proven otherwise. So toss this one on the list of things to do. Let’s just get this figured out once and for all. 1 test can be worth more than 15 years of theory. Of that I am sure...

One of the big challenges is agreeing on a definition.  What exactly do you mean by "floppy"?  Is that also what I mean when I say floppy?  Lack of precision in definitions is one of the greatest causes of misunderstandings.  Theory doesn't get a lot of love on this forum because people have thrown out a lot of unproven theories and they have never been tested, but I would argue that we just aren't using theory well.  There are unlimited numbers of things to test.  Theory should help us to narrow testing down to a reasonable set of things to try.  That only works though if there is clarity on what the actual theory is, and that requires more precise language than you normally get from words like "floppy".

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2021 at 3:28pm:

Morphy wrote on Feb 3rd, 2021 at 3:18pm: “As to the question, how sure are we that the cords ARE floppy? Has testing been done? I know what you are thinking...just pick up the cord and look at it Morphy. Great...has anyone actually tested rigidity with actual numbers while under load? No, didn’t think so. For all we know a paracord cord and a Balaeric cord have similar levels of rigidity when under the stress of an 8 oz stone spinning at 100 mph. Does it make sense that they are more floppy during the shot. Sure. But we dont know!” Ahhh....well. Sorry if I caused a bit of a flustercluck here. Was not my intention. And J I hope you don’t leave. Let’s just let this go for now. But one thing I will take from this is to put my money where my mouth is. All it should take to get a general idea on floppy vs stiff is a fish scale, a sisal cord and a paracord. Swing around the weight at slinging speeds. Get a poundage for how much weight is exerted. Then hang both at the given weight for that sling and test for lateral movement of the cords under similar loads. I suspect the difference will be minimal. But I am always ready to change my mind when it’s proven otherwise. So toss this one on the list of things to do. Let’s just get this figured out once and for all. 1 test can be worth more than 15 years of theory. Of that I am sure... One of the big challenges is agreeing on a definition.  What exactly do you mean by "floppy"?  Is that also what I mean when I say floppy?  Lack of precision in definitions is one of the greatest causes of misunderstandings.  Theory doesn't get a lot of love on this forum because people have thrown out a lot of unproven theories and they have never been tested, but I would argue that we just aren't using theory well.  There are unlimited numbers of things to test.  Theory should help us to narrow testing down to a reasonable set of things to try.  That only works though if there is clarity on what the actual theory is, and that requires more precise language than you normally get from words like "floppy".

We think a like on a lot of things. Yes you are right. So here's my go at it, keeping in mind I'm not an engineer. Floppy = cord which undergoes lateral deformation or torsion in a cord which is greater than or equal to 50% of other cords. Like an LD50 but without so much death involved.  ::)

Jauke, nobody here wants you to leave. You do a lot of experimentation and innovation and bring a lot to the forum.

The criticism is more about the presentation of your ideas as established fact rather than a theory- which much more accurately reflects the state of evidence. Just in the past year you have drastically changed your perspective on sling design several times and every single time you have had total belief in your theory of the day. It's of course normal and good to learn and change your mind but if you always present your current theory as fact, and that fact changes every few months then people will start taking what you say with a massive grain of salt.

Why not be slightly more humble? Accept like all of us here that you likely do not have the full picture, but nevertheless may have valuable theories and results. That way changing your mind is easy and you don't feel the need to do massive takebacks and deleting all your posts etc.

It's your words and view anyway, whether you take this advice or not I still think nobody would want you to leave.

I will agree my presentation has issues. Luckily I am not a native english Speaker and can use this as an excuse. There is a lot of misunderstanding due to the way internet talks work. Fear not because after what  I shared in this topic, I honestly can't think of any other area of slings to to my interest that I can still explore or talk about. It feels I have reached what there is to know and I am close to the settling down, at least for 95% percent of it, which is sufficient enough. My testing is not with mathematics or machines, it is by looking at history, my eye sight, and my intuition, and that is enough for me. Lets see where I am in a few months time. If I still hold to these convictions, for a few damn months even, than its evident enough. I don't see my viewpoints as contradictiory or conflicting to my past viewpoints, but as evolutionary.

https://i.imgur.com/QnwLWKM.jpg

Why not both?!

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2021 at 5:39pm:

Why not both?!

If God hadn't intended us to hit both buttons we wouldn't have two hands. -Abe Lincoln