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General >> Other Primitive Weapons >> Thick bowstrings https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1610575329 Message started by J on Jan 13th, 2021 at 5:02pm |
Title: Thick bowstrings Post by J on Jan 13th, 2021 at 5:02pm
Here's an interesting bit of history:
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http://www.armchairhistory.co.uk/pdf/Toxophilus2.pdf https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s81Igxo3piQ https://www.archerylibrary.com/books/faris-elmer/arab-archery/docs/xxxv.html It seems this whole discussion between thick and thin string like we slingers do all the time was being done by archers as well. The part I made bold could also be applied to slings On my self bows so far I mostly use 550 paracord. It's slower than a ''real bowstring'' but it works quite well. My thinking being that it's still miles better than what primitive peoples had anyway, and it's very comfortable to draw back and shoot and very durable indeed. |
Title: Re: Thick bowstrings Post by Morphy on Jan 13th, 2021 at 6:48pm
My thinking being that it's still miles better than what primitive peoples had anyway, and it's very comfortable to draw back and shoot and very durable indeed.
Although it may be counter intuitive this is actually not true. Paracord is a horrible bowstring. It stretches far too much and only the inner core is longitudinal strands. The mantle does add strength but far too much mass for the amount of strength gained. On top of that Nylon stretches a lot. Further robbing efficiency. With a 550 paracord string your bow could be shooting the equivalent of a 10-20# lower weight bow for the same amount of draw effort. I could send you a dynema string that would blow it out of the water. And increase your bows efficiency by a considerable amount if you wish. A good linen, silk, hemp or many other natural fiber string will be far lighter for the same mass and shoot far harder. While I’m destroying dreams here, the thick strings being better at close range is absolute horse sh!t. Thicker strings are found on Persian composites most likely because they had such ridiculously high early draw weight combined with the extreme difficulty in stringing these heavily reflexed/recurved short bows and with the fact that a broken string in battle doesn’t mean you go hungry, it means you die. Lastly, these bows are quite unstable which is one reason I’ve never pursued them; they are too specialized for me. A heavily recurved/reflex bow can flip in your hand on the shot and shed it’s string leading to potentially breaking the bow. With a Yew longbow this isn’t such a big deal. Grab another piece of wood and carve a bow. But some of the composites take 6 months to a year to make each. In some of these cultures if the bow broke due to bowyer mistakes the bowyer was killed. Another reason to have a bigger string than needed lol. So all of these aspects come into play when discussing this subject. Because there’s such a high amount of energy storage you can sort of get away with a thicker, heavier strings on Persian bows. Even if it slows their bows down, which it does, it’s the best trade off for the needs of ancient archers in the realities of longer war campaigns. Lose some speed> Lose some blood. As for the Egyptians using thinner strings this is probably because they used triangular composite bows which have much lower early draw weight and energy storage. Also much, much easier to string and less likely to blow your string out like the crazy pop of the Indo-Persian design. Just in case you're curious why they are so unstable. Look at the reflex on that beast. Imagine trying to string a 100 pound warbow with that much reflex. Lol. |
Title: Re: Thick bowstrings Post by MarianoV123 on Jan 13th, 2021 at 7:28pm
@Morphy Would an artificial sinew string be good?
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Title: Re: Thick bowstrings Post by Morphy on Jan 13th, 2021 at 8:20pm MirkoSling wrote on Jan 13th, 2021 at 7:28pm:
Negative it's just waxed nylon. Send me your address and bow info and I'll send you a dyneema string if you want. |
Title: Re: Thick bowstrings Post by J on Jan 14th, 2021 at 3:48am
I have 'real bowstrings' on my professionally made bows. I could make myself a thin bowstring as well if I want. No need to send me a string.
The penetration I get on my professional 40# hickory longbow with a 'real bow string' and on my privet selfbow with a paracord string, both 40 pounds, is roughly equal. I don't have a way to test speeds but it does not feel or look 10 pounds slower. Yes, 550 cord is not an efficiënt bow string. Bank line is probably better. If I want something better I will twist something out of hemp. |
Title: Re: Thick bowstrings Post by Morphy on Jan 14th, 2021 at 6:00am AncientCraftwork wrote on Jan 14th, 2021 at 3:48am:
Hopefully you took that in the way it was meant J. :) FWIW true bow speed on trad bows is extremely hard to measure even with a shooting machine. By hand it's virtually impossible. There are so many variables. I won't go into details or it would be even longer than the last post. But It's a good bow. I mean no offense. The info is there if someday you or someone else need it. Mariano hopefully you also took that in the way it was meant lol. I'm very too the point some times but the offer still stands. |
Title: Re: Thick bowstrings Post by NooneOfConsequence on Jan 14th, 2021 at 11:40am
If you have a phone that can record audio, you can measure the speed. In a quiet area, shoot through two pieces of paper a known distance apart. Use Audacity or some other audio program to measure the time between the two sounds, and you know distance and time... thus you know the speed of your arrow.
There's enough momentum that the first piece of paper won't slow the arrow down significantly, but if you want to take it to the next level, you can subtract out the effect of the paper too. Simply repeat the same test again with a 3rd sheet of paper in front of the other two to figure out how much of an effect one sheet of paper has on the velocity. |
Title: Re: Thick bowstrings Post by NooneOfConsequence on Jan 14th, 2021 at 11:45am
If you have a phone that can record audio, you can measure the speed. In a quiet area, shoot through two pieces of paper a known distance apart. Use Audacity or some other audio program to measure the time between the two sounds, and you know distance and time... thus you know the speed of your arrow.
There's enough momentum that the first piece of paper won't slow the arrow down significantly, but if you want to take it to the next level, you can subtract out the effect of the paper too. Simply repeat the same test again with a 3rd sheet of paper in front of the other two to figure out how much of an effect one sheet of paper has on the velocity. |
Title: Re: Thick bowstrings Post by Morphy on Jan 14th, 2021 at 3:01pm NooneOfConsequence wrote on Jan 14th, 2021 at 11:40am:
Ive never used this method NOOC. Do you prefer it over a chronograph? |
Title: Re: Thick bowstrings Post by NooneOfConsequence on Jan 14th, 2021 at 4:19pm
If you have a chrony, that's probably better... it's certainly less work, because the paper method requires some post-analysis, and a chrony just tells you the answer directly. The paper method should be fairly precise and easy to do on the cheap though. All you need is a few pieces of paper, a measuring tape, and an audio recording device... and some patience.
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Title: Re: Thick bowstrings Post by Morphy on Jan 14th, 2021 at 6:26pm
Interesting. That’s a new one to me. Ill have to try that some day for my sling. I would be too scared to throw through a chronograph with a sling lol.
The difficulty in measuring a wooden bows true speed is the amount of variables that change on the user end that affect the bows speed. There’s a lot and they are pretty difficulty to account for. Hard numbers I would venture to guess at least on wooden bows are not a real thing. Things like depth of penetration and distance also tell us nothing but sometimes are used as a rough gauge against other bows. It’s a moving target, you can gauge one against another easier than you can get hard numbers that have any realistic chance of being accurate from one day to the next. Some very smart bow builders, some who are engineers have had trouble with this. It’s an interesting subject. Don’t want to derail this anymore. I just enjoy discussing this topics. Possibly too much lol. Hopefully our other bow builders and geniuses will chime in. |
Title: Re: Thick bowstrings Post by Mersa on Jan 14th, 2021 at 7:06pm
For me it’s always better to add the weight into the arrows.
Let’s take out air resistance because that is most likely negligible. A 16 strand d97 string vs a 14strand d97 string the 14 strand string will most likely shoot the same arrow faster but if you add extra weight to the arrow for the weight loss they would be closer to the same speed. It’s the same reason I don’t use string silencers on my bows. I’d rather a bow that shoots a heavier quieter arrow than a fast loud one. But I am hunting so if it’s just for target shooting your parameters might differ. |
Title: Re: Thick bowstrings Post by joe_meadmaker on Jan 14th, 2021 at 10:44pm
@J - Are the nocks on the arrows you use for a 550 paracord string larger than normal?
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Title: Re: Thick bowstrings Post by J on Jan 15th, 2021 at 4:38am
They're wood nocks, part of the arrow, yes, not those plastic glue on ones, these are probably a little too tight
Paracord is not my final solution for bow strings. But it works. It's a piece of string. |
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