https://youtu.be/t9GRZW-LAso

any experience with them?

The American Boy's handy book by Daniel Carter Beard  shows a variation called the Swiss Arrow. Instead of sling like tool, the person used a thin springy piece of wood. You bend the wood back and release it sidearm. Kids could get away with a lot more then.

So it is an arrow with certain properties that create a lot of lift?

slingbadger wrote on Dec 11^th, 2020 at 6:25am:

shows a variation called the Swiss Arrow

can you post a pic?  from what I know swiss arrows have fletchings.


AncientCraftwork wrote on Dec 11^th, 2020 at 6:26am:

So it is an arrow with certain properties that create a lot of lift?

an arrow that doesn't need fletchings as much as other arrows, this means lower drag for similar lift or better lift.

slingbadger wrote on Dec 11^th, 2020 at 6:25am:

The American Boy's handy book by Daniel Carter Beard  shows a variation called the Swiss Arrow. Instead of sling like tool, the person used a thin springy piece of wood. You bend the wood back and release it sidearm. Kids could get away with a lot more then.

Well damn. Lol I've been meaning to try and make a mini atatl that bends more in the atlatl than the dart. Looks like someone beat me to it. I didn't have any luck with my initial tries. Good to hear the idea will potentially work.

I would be really interested to see how they fly with heads and what sort of impact they can have.

Kick wrote on Dec 11^th, 2020 at 3:01pm:

I would be really interested to see how they fly with heads and what sort of impact they can have.

all string throws in this video were less than the full length of the field. I'd say max range was ~75m. maybe without wind and with more practice it could be 150m I cant see me getting it anywhere near the 250yds mark that an "ordinary" thrower would achieve.

edit: not much momentum for an impact. A sharp point would stick it to the ground . a metal point would move the CM forward changing the flight characteristics

I would like to see some fletchless archery though a metal point would help on that.

slingbadger wrote on Dec 11^th, 2020 at 6:25am:

The American Boy's handy book by Daniel Carter Beard  shows a variation called the Swiss Arrow. Instead of sling like tool, the person used a thin springy piece of wood. You bend the wood back and release it sidearm. Kids could get away with a lot more then.

This one?
It's a whip bow.

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the onager of bows :P

You make me wonder about fletchless arrows for archery.
Australian abboriginals use fletchess atlatl darts. Their darts tend to be longer than other atlatl darts, and very flexible.

I can imagine early primitive cultures that used a bow with fletchless arrows, simpl ybecause they didn't know better, as a result their arrows would have to be somewhat different than convential archery arrows, to cope with this fact.

Makes me wonder, how would a very thin, fletchless and overly long archery archery arrow fly, one with a very flexible spine.

@ J

I can make trad bows and enjoyed it (stopped for the last 2 years) my main problem with trad.archery is a place to practice it and arrows. Arrows with vanes dont go well with trad bows and feathers add a complexity I dont like. So if I ever find a place welcome towards trad. archery this will be my first approach to the arrow problem. without fletchings well spined arrows will be more crucial for accuracy

I’ve heard rumours that with a high FOC you can get very consistent flight from fletchless arrows

AAE tradvanes shoot fine off the shelf, almost identical to feathers

Yes Mersa, thanks for noticing that. Aboriginal woomera darts also look to be heavier and thicker at the front. They must have figured it out. I will experiment with you on this subject Sarosh seeing that lately I have more access to achery than slinging. A front heavy fletchless arrow will be one of my next projects.

AncientCraftwork wrote on Dec 14^th, 2020 at 5:44am:

I will experiment with you on this subject Sarosh seeing that lately I have more access to achery than slinging. A front heavy fletchless arrow will be one of my next projects.

Nice I'd love to see that. It would take me forever to do this in the current situation.


Mersa wrote on Dec 14^th, 2020 at 3:48am:

AAE tradvanes

interesting. I dont know about the price and availability, but doesnt really matter if there is no archery range for trad bows around  :(

Slyngorm wrote on Dec 11^th, 2020 at 5:27pm:

slingbadger wrote on Dec 11th, 2020 at 6:25am: The American Boy's handy book by Daniel Carter Beard  shows a variation called the Swiss Arrow. Instead of sling like tool, the person used a thin springy piece of wood. You bend the wood back and release it sidearm. Kids could get away with a lot more then. This one? It's a whip bow.

Yes

The notch is where the end of the stick rests.

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Sarosh. I have done a few experiments with both my atlatl and my archery sets.

I can give you the quick conclusion right now, I am sticking with fletchings.

I've concluded it is more work for me to make a proper fletchless arrow or atlatl dart with the perfect FOC than to simply stick two feathers on the end.  With the experience I gained from this, I think fletchings are in fact a simpler solution for getting straight flights. I think fletchless arrows can be done, but is it really worth all the effort and experimentation required ?
Fletchings seem to correct a lot of imperfections in the arrow, while without fletchings an arrow seems much more sensitive to imperfections.

It's true that fletchings are sensitive to wear and tear, but it's not like we treat arrows like sling stones. Arrows are precision instruments that we only shoot when we are quite sure of a good shot. That a fletching or stone tip breaks does not matter at all if it results in a deer kill, or a duck.

Properly done fletchings can be quite a chore but primitive fletchings are very quick to install. 2 feather halves, slightly spiralled around the shaft, tightened with plant fibers in the front and back and some pitch glue, it's a quick procedure.

@ slingbadger

On the whipbow? Doesn't it also use some string?
I wonder if it was ever used anywhere. I guess it could be the precursor to the bow.

Aboriginal spears are very variable and thrown with a spearthrower . The most common name is a woomera . The spears quite often are composite . Heavy at the front and weigh 200 to 450 grams. And have worked quite well for 40 000 years. The papua new guineans shoot long arrows up to six feet  out of their long bows unfletched as many other people have done. Small unstable arrows need fletching. The polynesians used a similar technique of a small unfletched dart with a notch and string to fling the darts from outside the walls of a besieged fort on a high trajectory.

Slyngorm wrote on Dec 20^th, 2020 at 4:30pm:

@ slingbadger On the whipbow? Doesn't it also use some string? I wonder if it was ever used anywhere. I guess it could be the precursor to the bow.

Not as far as I know. You shave down a springy piece of wood and have a raised section at the end that fits into the notch.

Taiwanese aboriginal archers use fletchless arrows, see at 2 min 30 sec

https://youtu.be/288souhPMY0

Some South American tribes did too.   

Pfeile zu werfen macht mir keinen Spaß.
Ich nehme lieber einen speer
https://youtu.be/Bda40ZOghRU

Papuans use fletchless and nockless arrows and a flat bow string
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyLSEDrk5Q4

their ''string'' is a flat strip of bamboo  :-?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwwrdV-WovY

These are very intriguing, and never heard of them. Great video Sarosh!
I see potential in making this technology a bit more beefy. Imagine them constructed from something much heavier like cast iron, and propelled by some torsion device?
Arrow fletchings cause a lot of drag, so these would be perfect for long range.

Thanks for the replies

It seems a lot of people have used fletchless arrows, makes me wonder why in Europe fletchings were so prevalent. with fletchless arrows you would get faster production(?) at a lower price and less maintenance.
Then I watched this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ViVC7MS_Cg which would mean that with fletchings you can use a wide range of spine and get close to target. Fletchings would make sense if archers share arrows or production of shafts is standardized, I wonder to what degree that happened in medieval England.
Still I would like to see a bare shaft fly straight from a warbow.

Sarosh wrote on Jan 17^th, 2021 at 2:23am:

Thanks for the replies It seems a lot of people have used fletchless arrows, makes me wonder why in Europe fletchings were so prevalent. with fletchless arrows you would get faster production(?) at a lower price and less maintenance. Then I watched this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ViVC7MS_Cg which would mean that with fletchings you can use a wide range of spine and get close to target. Fletchings would make sense if archers share arrows or production of shafts is standardized, I wonder to what degree that happened in medieval England. Still I would like to see a bare shaft fly straight from a warbow.

Send an email to Tod from Tod's Workshop.

An spear thrower with spear, and a bow with a very long unfletced arrow.
Both work great considering the lack of fletchings, it surprised me at first. I understand the Australian aboriginals.
Of course not as perfect as well spined and fletched arrows or spears, but good enough for primitive standards.
. But the benefits it is that its much simpler in construction, not just the lack of fletchings, but the high oscillation and FOC make up for a lot of imperfections. Thus you can be less worried about losing an arrow or spear.  And I think it would work well for fishing since the arrow is longer and thus more easily reached. And bow-fishing is pretty close distance. Fletchings have become definitely optional in my mind for primitive bow and spear-thrower and I no longer see them as essential.

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