I know this particular question may seem American-centric but I mean this in more of a general sense. Question being were you as relieved as I was when the election was done? No, not because Trump lost or Biden won but because you are just sick of politics in general? I find the older I get the more I feel like politics is just a big show. Some are faker than others but I have a hard time really believing most of them are for the average person. Some maybe but most probably not.

I understand the feeling.

We've had wrangling in the UK about Brexit for four long years now. I've always been very against it as I feel it will harm the prosperity and standing of the country, but when BoJo won the latest GE with a strong majority it effectively ended any chance for remain or a softer leave deal. It's not the outcome I wanted but there's something positive about the course of action being decided now at least. In any case the very slight silver lining for me is I now get to see all the Brexit BSers having to actually try to deliver on their promises*.

*Lies

Consprency Theorists believe:

Politicians and your government gives a hoot about you and have your best interests at heart.

Political parties matter.  (See above)

News media does not lie or spin their presentation.

Big Pharma wants you to get well and have a healthy life.

Fast Food is nutritious.

I can't wait for ALL the trolls to stop, shut up, and to get out of thier basements, get some sun, and go find a job. Only in a perfect world.  Unfortunately this poopy show is a long way before its done.  No matter how much i want it to be over.  Its gonna be interesting for sure.

Agreed.  The extreme division drives me nuts.  I hate the fact that any time someone says something, it's the person's political party that will determine whether or not another person agrees with them (in no way pointing that finger at anyone on this forum).  If there was a way to opt out of political content in my news, recommended videos, and pop-up windows, I would do it.

joe_meadmaker wrote on Nov 19^th, 2020 at 4:23pm:

Agreed.  The extreme division drives me nuts.  I hate the fact that any time someone says something, it's the person's political party that will determine whether or not another person agrees with them (in no way pointing that finger at anyone on this forum).  If there was a way to opt out of political content in my news, recommended videos, and pop-up windows, I would do it.

This is my biggest gripe too. Politics should not be a team sport. When a person does wrong you should call them out, when they do right they should be supported. Regardless of party affiliation.

The other issue I am having is this idea that if you disagree with an opposing viewpoint it's not because you are a good, decent person that happens to have a different viewpoint, it's because you are a commie or "literal Nazi". There is practically no middle ground anymore and all motivations must be reduced to the basest possible  intention.

My family is currently split because of it and I as the politically exhausted hear all sides and agree with none.

I had an interesting experience recently. This is mostly related to politics so I guess it still fits but it was really about general news. I think, like most people nowadays I consume news media through social media platforms linking out to various news sites. I very rarely actually go to a news site and just go through the "front page" anymore. Well I did recently for the first time in a long time and...

It was depressing as hell.

I realised after why it was such an awful experience. With seeing articles being linked on other sites like Reddit and Facebook and Twitter and whatnot, in between depressing articles about how terrible the world is you get the general internet detritus of cat gifs, funny memes, unfunny memes and random posts of people just going about their daily lives. The horror and fear-mongering is softened because look that dog is doing a silly dance! In between news reports on the Nigerian government brutally cracking down on citizens protesting the far reaching powers and abuses of the secret police and the latest corona virus death toll, you get to get a little hit of dopamine as a post asks you if you remember some cartoon from the 90's you really used to love. It's a weird phenomenon which I haven't heard talked about before. I have no idea what the long running affects of this style of news proliferation but it really did hit me over the head. Traditional news presentation is DEPRESSING. Politics makes up most of the news so no wonder everyone is sick of it.

It would be sweet if all politicians were statesmen/women and the voting polls inviolate.

I have a policy to stay out of politics, religion, and other mens wives.

walter wrote on Nov 19^th, 2020 at 8:38pm:

It would be sweet if all politicians were statesmen/women and the voting polls inviolate.

What fantasy utopia is this and how does one get there?  :)

My theory is that since politics is one of the main seats of power and power attracts the corrupt it's inevitable that evil people will rule over the good. Until the good get suitably pissed and grab there pitchforks and torches. 

Unfortunately we are now living in possibly the first time in history where a civil uprising has very little chance of winning. The tech divide is too huge.

Morphy wrote on Nov 20^th, 2020 at 7:13pm:

power attracts the corrupt it's inevitable that evil people will rule over the good.

Yep, it's basic physics, poo floats to the top, all we can do is flush once in a while.

Oh god yeah !

The american position is bad enough when you're living in england - can't imagine how bad it is for you guys !

And it's not like the uk setup is brilliant.

we seem to have gone the opposite way to you lot.
Someone so much as frowns at a workmate and they're accused of bullying.
And political correctness really has gone so far off the bloody deepend over here that it's started digging a hole at the bottom of the marianas trench.

I have facebook friends in both US camps - both are as bad as each other while simultaneously claiming the moral high ground.

So currently mostly avoiding facebook. 

Curious Aardvark wrote on Nov 24^th, 2020 at 8:20am:

Someone so much as frowns at a workmate and they're accused of bullying.

Unfortunately we have this happening here as well. More so in big cities

Curious Aardvark wrote on Nov 24^th, 2020 at 8:20am:

Oh god yeah ! The american position is bad enough when you're living in england - can't imagine how bad it is for you guys ! And it's not like the uk setup is brilliant. we seem to have gone the opposite way to you lot. Someone so much as frowns at a workmate and they're accused of bullying. And political correctness really has gone so far off the bloody deepend over here that it's started digging a hole at the bottom of the marianas trench. I have facebook friends in both US camps - both are as bad as each other while simultaneously claiming the moral high ground. So currently mostly avoiding facebook.

https://i.imgur.com/Cih5tAV.jpg

   I wish I could be done with politics.  tRump has radicalized me.  I doubt at this point I'll ever be done. 

and what benefit to you or others will that have?

Near as I can tell the radicalization of the American Population is far worse than the actual policies of the current and previous tenants of the white house.

   Taking a stand against racism, corruption, and evil is not a bad thing by any measure.  If I was a citizen of Germany in the 30s I'd certainly oppose Hitler. 

Pretty sure this is that part in a thread where there's an awkward silence and then someone posts a bad joke to break the tension. Can you imagine? *shrug*

except your "Hitler" is gone now and you just said you're still "radical" and will be the rest of your life.

I don't see a great injustice, a great cause, I see what you described. Self radicalized people getting us closer to civil war. I'd as soon not see that.

As a general rule, the first person to mention Hitler in an argument loses.

What scares me is all the people who think Trump is so bad that they don’t care whether the election was stolen or not. That’s all fine and good until the next guy(or gal) you think is evil uses the same tactics to invalidate your vote and your side loses... then it’s an outrage. Apparently nobody cares about Kantian ethics any more. The other guy gets a different set of rules than me, and apparently that’s not a problem.

All this proves to me is that two good people can have wildly different viewpoints and remain good people. The deep polarization of today's politics is a problem. Too many people see someone with opposing views as not just different or wrong but evil.

I hope that's not the case here. I think it's accurate to say we have the full spectrum of political thought here on Slinging.Org and none of us have a bad heart.

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Nov 30^th, 2020 at 12:25am:

As a general rule, the first person to mention Hitler in an argument loses.

How about Mao?

https://youtu.be/k-rE03PGQfA

The "leaders" who govern us are convinced of their intelligence.
So the people for them are wrong. Problem : many people don't like this contempt.
In France, we have " les gilets jaunes" (the yellow vests).

anyone watched the social dilemma?

perpetualstudent wrote on Nov 29^th, 2020 at 10:19pm:

except your "Hitler" is gone now and you just said you're still "radical" and will be the rest of your life. I don't see a great injustice, a great cause, I see what you described. Self radicalized people getting us closer to civil war. I'd as soon not see that.

    The White Nationalists who put tRump in power didn't just suddenly evaporate.  They've always been here and always will.  Until 20l6 I considered them a harmless minority... a tragic relic from our not so distant past.  The past four years have illustrated how very potent they still are an how dangerous they can be. 
    There is no reconciliation or negotiating with Nazis. If standing up for truth and right brings us closer to civil war then so be it. 

I dont think that there are that many neo nazis in this country to where they put Trump in office.  I voted  for him, am i automatically a nazi? I dont think so. What would you call all 'colored' voters, (black, brown, green) i dont think youcould call them nazi.


I unfortunately see this thread getting way to personal. It mightcause some issues here

Rat Man wrote on Nov 29^th, 2020 at 8:03pm:

Taking a stand against racism, corruption, and evil is not a bad thing by any measure.  If I was a citizen of Germany in the 30s I'd certainly oppose Hitler.

Sure you would.

https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/abG47wb_460s.jpg




Rat Man wrote on Nov 30^th, 2020 at 1:29pm:

perpetualstudent wrote on Nov 29th, 2020 at 10:19pm: except your "Hitler" is gone now and you just said you're still "radical" and will be the rest of your life. I don't see a great injustice, a great cause, I see what you described. Self radicalized people getting us closer to civil war. I'd as soon not see that.     The White Nationalists who put tRump in power didn't just suddenly evaporate.  They've always been here and always will.  Until 20l6 I considered them a harmless minority... a tragic relic from our not so distant past.  The past four years have illustrated how very potent they still are an how dangerous they can be.      There is no reconciliation or negotiating with Nazis. If standing up for truth and right brings us closer to civil war then so be it.

You think the side that gets "triggered" by people calling them names would win against the side that you call every horrible name in the book and can take it without crying to the PC police?  Ha!

From an outside perspective it makes zero difference who is in power in the USA or the rest of the first World, either way it's ongoing bad news for the third World and developing nations. Because whatever they do at home, they will always endorse and finance corrupt regimes and protect them against their own people in the rest of the World...... just saying

a wrote on Nov 30^th, 2020 at 4:33pm:

From an outside perspective it makes zero difference who is in power in the USA, either way it's ongoing bad news for the third World and developing nations. Because whatever they do at home, they will always endorse and finance corrupt regimes and protect them against their own people...... just saying

Yep pretty much. Not every American is for that by the way. We feel just as powerless to stop that stuff as you probably do.

The last 4 years have continually reminded me of a quote I like from Nietzsche:

https://i.imgur.com/GiTRgql.jpg

Take that however you want.

Morphy wrote on Nov 30^th, 2020 at 4:36pm:

Yep pretty much. Not every American is for that by the way. We feel just as powerless to stop that stuff as you probably do.

You're more powerless than us. We always have options (but not always the will) to fight back.

At the end of the day I personally just want to be someone I can be proud of and set a clean example for my kids to follow. The big picture will play out on it's own.

On the rare occasions corruption sticks itself in my face, I headbutt it. Honestly I'd rather ignore it and I don't go looking for it, but due to my religion I'm obligated to face evil head on without fear and give it a kicking. So after several incidents it usually gives me a wide berth. ;)

Quote "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing" :- Spiderman. Vol 2 Chap 7

NPR estimate (excluding third parties) is 51-49 % (80 million Biden, 74 million Trump). I do not buy that there are 74 Million neonazis all of a sudden in the US. Treating each of those 74 Million people as if they are nazis or fools will take us closer to civil war. Perhaps it is just easier for the older and the younger to say "so be it". I have a pregnant wife and 2 small children. I have read accounts of civil war over the millenia. I have an idea what it entails. I do not wish civil war if it can be reasonably avoided. There is a place for war, even civil war, I have heard no reasons merely screaming that the other side is evil. Surely we are better than that.

Approximately 35 - 40% of Americans are just fine with our government being infested with Nazi goons. You can call them White Supremacists if that sounds more pleasant to you... tRump's very fine people.  Personally i find it supremely offensive and always will.
   That said, no sane person wants war of any sort.

Rat Man wrote on Dec 1^st, 2020 at 1:46am:

That said, no sane person wants war of any sort.

Probably a bunch of sane people, many of them rich americans who'd be quite happy to see USA tear it's self to pieces while they make money off both sides. I imagine a bunch of foreign govts would be overjoyed as well.

But many third world govts would pee their pants, because without USA support, there's nothing between them and their own people but a whole lot of serious grievances and a whole lot of blood.

Although I did not vote for him or Biden I have a hard time believing all the Hispanic and black people I know that voted for Trump are secretly white supremacists...wait... no no no. Very tricky. I'm done with politics. Lol. At least until someone says something I disagree with again.

Some talk of civil war, I want you to think about this advertisement and to see this mural in Belfast. 30 years of civil war.

---

The two babies in this picture were protestant but babies died on both side.  :'(
When the first baby was released, the journalist didn't have the courage to take the photo. When they took out the second baby, he tought he would take the picture.
This is what a civil war is  !

Well it seems the answer to the question 'Done with politics?' Is a fairly resounding 'No' Morphy.

I know this is just going to trigger more debate but I do think the temperature needs to come down a lot on both sides. Both sides view the other as completely irredeemable and seem completely blind to follies of their own side.

Dems give a pass to creeping authoritarian wokeism infecting society and repubs give a pass to Trump being an awful human being and who trashed faith in the democratic system in an attempt to hold onto power.

For me if Biden was ideologically 'woke' it would be a 50-50 choice, with both options being truly terrible. However since Biden has remained reasonable he very easily surpasses Trump. But I'm not even American so who cares.

I find it hard to find American politicians I side with because your whole political system is way further right than most of Europe. Biden would be a Conservative in Britain so right wing compared to Labour. Trump, in a lot of ways doesn't truly fit into a Left/Right way of measuring political alignment. Trump is for Trump at the end of the day. If he could be convinced it would benefit him, he would advocate for and implement Soviet Communism. He's a textbook example of a narcissist. A true, down to the roots narcissist. He is physically incapable of empathy and as such I would not have trusted him with a particularly sharp pencil let alone the nuclear codes. Remember when he suggested dropping a nuke on tornado? Yeah. If I was American it would absolutely be Biden I would vote for. He is far from perfect but at least he's LESS likely to irradiate large swathes of the world because someone pissed him off on Twitter...

Current us population estimate is 328.2 million people. Multiplying by your lower bound 35%  we get 114 million of "tRumps very fine people" who are ok with "nazi goons infesting government". This doesn't seem an overestimate to you? I imagine the number of people who are actually ok with "nazi goons" is statistically nonsignificant. It's the number of people who disagree politically that is large and that disagreement itself is not evil.

I agree with Judo, both sides need to calm down. The ideological divide is getting hot. We're having legitimate group vs group aggression and social unrest (some if it just 2 hours away from me). If we can't cool it down, it will get hotter and it will bring horror. Half of Americans disagree with you. Whichever side you're on. We should find a way to get along.

JudoP wrote on Dec 1^st, 2020 at 7:11am:

Well it seems the answer to the question 'Done with politics?' Is a fairly resounding 'No' Morphy.

You may have a point.   ;D ;D

Well come to think of it this may actually be the perfect study in why I'm done with politics so in a way....

But as I was telling Vet earlier who would've guessed a thread like this would go nuclear?

My next thread should be a little less devisive. Tentatively I'm calling it,  "Your religion and why everyone else is stupid."

tRump's racism is meticulously documented going back to the 80s in countless reputable sources.  I could look them up for you and list them here but honestly I've grown tired of doing so.  The fact that he appointed White Nationalists like Miller and Bannon to key positions is there for the world to see.  tRump is endorsed by the American Nazi Party, the KKK, and ever other White Nationalist group in America.
Willful ignorance is extremely unbecoming. 

Rat Man wrote on Dec 1^st, 2020 at 9:18am:

tRump's racism is meticulously documented going back to the 80s in countless reputable sources.  I could look them up for you and list them here but honestly I've grown tired of doing so.  The fact that he appointed White Nationalists like Miller and Bannon to key positions is there for the world to see.  tRump is endorsed by the American Nazi Party, the KKK, and ever other White Nationalist group in America. Willful ignorance is extremely unbecoming.

And Biden is endorsed by Richard Spencer.  I actually have evidence to back up my claim.

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/08/25/03/32342246-0-image-a-37_1598321994802.jpg

Rat Man wrote on Dec 1^st, 2020 at 9:18am:

tRump's racism is meticulously documented going back to the 80s in countless reputable sources.  I could look them up for you and list them here but honestly I've grown tired of doing so.  The fact that he appointed White Nationalists like Miller and Bannon to key positions is there for the world to see.  tRump is endorsed by the American Nazi Party, the KKK, and ever other White Nationalist group in America. Willful ignorance is extremely unbecoming.

Well, since you're throwing around accusations of racism like they're candy (typical DemocRAT), here you go.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan_members_in_United_States_politics

18 known members of the KKK in American politics.

2 Republicans
15 Democrats
1 (David Duke) who ran under both parties.

Ratman I'm using your words, your assertions, and math. That's not willfull ignorance it's an attempt at reasoning with you.

All I've argued for is that we need to calm down and avoid the civil war you agree you don't want. Part of that is acknowledging that not everyone on the other side (not even most of them) are agents of evil. If that is too big a stretch, then, as I am increasingly becoming resigned to, there is no hope for peace between our tribes and horror is inevitable.

You cant be this ridiculous,  as its been pointed out now for the 3rd time. How can the (black,brown) voters be white supremacist?? But has been avoided in this thread. Yet its been proven that Trump has had most colored votes then any Republican  in recent history.  The economy has been doing good.

Now i am not giving him a free pass, but Trump is the lesser of 2 evils. Back in 2016, and 2020. Even Obama has said quote 'don't underestimate Joe's ability to F@$!things up'. Joe has been in politics for 47 years. Hasn't done anything. He signed that crime bill in 1994 that was against blacks, put alot of them in prison. He has the hypocrite group Antifa, and a few more. Which they all want to go against the constitution.  Mainly the 2ndA.  He lies, i can go on forever with this list

I am not a big fan of politics, and definitely not a joiner. If you look at how Republican leaning states have handled Covid lockdowns versus Democrat leaning states, I would say Republican politicians are more likely to leave me alone and let me live my life and make my own informed decisions based on my own situation. Ironically the current Democrat platform encourages both invasive control of personal lives AND anarchy via defunding law enforcement, but there are still Democrats I would vote for over some Republicans at the individual level.
I prefer to limit the power on both sides... but especially anyone who thinks that they don’t have to live by the same rules as everyone else. You can find those people in every political party, so that means you have to pay more attention to individuals’ past records and statements when you vote instead of blindly sticking to one party.

vetryan15 wrote on Dec 1^st, 2020 at 10:45am:

You cant be this ridiculous,  as its been pointed out now for the 3rd time. How can the (black,brown) voters be white supremacist??

There is a serious problem with hyperbole in politics. Words have meaning... but sometimes not the same meaning to everyone. Many people mean “white cisgender conservative Christian” when they say “racist/white supremacist”, or sometimes it simply means “everyone who disagrees with me”.  I have even been told that I am a racist because of the color of my skin!  My behavior and beliefs are irrelevant apparently, and in that case “racist” literally means “caucasian”.  I’d say it’s silly, but the consequences of labels like that are pretty serious.

One of the reasons I think the left hates Trump is because he weaponizes labels the same way they do. Everyone needs to stop. Not just “the other guys”.

If by politics, you mean unreasonable ad hominem attacks against anyone who disagrees with you, then yes. I am definitely tired of that.

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Dec 1^st, 2020 at 6:43pm:

One of the reasons I think the left hates Trump is because he weaponizes labels the same way they do. Everyone needs to stop. Not just “the other guys”.

I will say without a shadow of a doubt, that I dislike Trump for the shallow, selfish, narcissist that he is. I dislike many of his policies too, but it is he himself that makes me recoil.

There are many conservatives that I think are good people, even if I disagree with their policy/politics. John McCain was one. 

I agree that we Americans certainly need to stop weaponizing labels, such as calling someone a "racist" or "bigot". Both sides are too quick to use labels. But, in my opinion they've lost any sort of punch or meaning because they are used so readily. It's like calling someone a "meany" on the playground. No one really cares. It doesn't have any deterrent effect or make someone really question their behavior because it is used too much and too quickly.

Vet, (and anyone else who wants to answer) I would really like to hear your perspective on why Trump is the lesser of two evils for you?  I haven't had a chance to hear this perspective (because I'm in an echo chamber, surrounded by like-minded people) and want to know where you are coming from. I'm hoping in coming years to get a broader perspective from different viewpoints and people. It's very easy to remain in my safe little bubble and/or get perspectives from news sources (right or left), rather than from other people.

No matter which side you're on sometimes something is just plain funny.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCY2HWxIZWY

@IG,

If we start back in 2016, when he ran against Clinton.  Some is heresay but some has been proven. Now i am not saying Trump is perfect,  but she is way worse then Trump. You can even go back to the 70s when Bill was getting into politics.  He has had mutiple sexual assault allegations,  she would actually threaten each and every one of his victims, to drop the allegations.  Mutiple people that have gone against them, have  ended up murdered.  While she was secretary of state,  the server emails that were on the wrong computer, which she then erased, since she knew it was wrong. Then got no jail time. I am a veteran,  as are a few older members here. I am a patriot. I am not a fan of huge government. National security is key due to these times we live in. What about Benghazi, and the US embassy? They called Clinton for help, she ignored them. 4 American citizens were killed. She is a sore loser, is unfortunately untouchable,( in more ways then one). She was the one that started the dossier, looking into Trump and the Russians. The list goes on.

Then Biden, i have family ties to them unfortunately.  That whole family is SCUM, thats putting it nicely.  He has been a politician for 47 years, what has he done? I grew up in NJ about 25 minutes from Delaware.  That whole state is a shithole. What about his son, getting paid to have access to the VP?, that is some corrupt poopy. Joe hasnt done much, his VP choice, i won't even go there. She is .............  :o. He is backed by Antifa, that right there is a group of hypocrites, lazy, and always looking for handouts.  I know, my neighbor is a sympathizer  for ANTIFA, and a socalist.( but he is very confused). But we hang out everyday and dont let politics get in between.  But he knows if any of that poopy happens near me, i will be first in line to defend,  my stuff and myself and my gf. I apologize for getting off topic.  But i am done on this post, if anyone wants to pick it apart, go ahead. I dont let politics get into friendships,so whatever judgement you have of me. I dont care. I just dont want anyone on this forum to have any resentment or animosity towards me.

I’ve mostly stayed out of this, but if you ignore his personality and look at what Trump has accomplished in office, he was more than the lesser of two evils.  He was one of the most effective presidents in my lifetime. He pulled troops out of the Middle East, negotiated peace deals between Israel and several neighbors, and didn’t start any new wars. He removed thousands of old, outdated bureacratic regulations in every area of executive management, improved national parks, and had one of the best economies ever before the pandemic.   He fixed a lot of problems and made a lot of improvements overall, despite being under investigation as a “Russian agent”.  If that’s merely a lesser of evils, then I don’t think there will ever be a non-evil option, and again we are just talking in hyperbole when we call every politician evil.

I can't say I know any hard core Trumpers. Nor do I really care too (or hard core Biden fans). I care about politics I've wasted years reading and trying to understand both sides.  The most useful recent book I've read was "The Great Debate: Edmund Burke, Thomas Paine, and the Birth of Right and Left" by Levin

I've always cared about the underlying philosophies and how they matter. And if you look at the way every important issue is divided, is there any surprise that the 'blue wave' wasn't, midterms or now? Did anyone really expect people who believe abortion is murder to change parties even if they believed that their party's candidate was a racist? Same for pretty much any other social issue. These are deep felt issues and they would not simply ignore them.  Add to that months of riots that were softballed and billed as "mostly peaceful" until the video of their felonies (which is what making, let alone using a molotov is, as is throwing black powder explosives at law enforcement). Riots which were coming from the BLM movement, which is just watered down Critical Race Theory (I know because I've listened to professors give me those arguments) which say "there can be no legitimacy" and the riots (and the previous attacks on law enforcement) are entirely logical given that philosophy. Riots that were encouraged by the democratic leaders and one of which took place 2 hours from me. Half the country doesn't feel that is the right direction and I don't see that changing.

Rat Man wrote on Dec 1^st, 2020 at 10:53pm:

No matter which side you're on sometimes something is just plain funny. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCY2HWxIZWY

Well, then make one about Biden, the actual racist.



Democrats forgot how racist Biden is and always has been.

https://cdn.lacortenews.com/media/20200129061003/Screen-Shot-2019-09-06-at-10.37.48-AM.png




And they also forgot that Trump received awards for fighting racism... until he decided to run on a Republican ticket.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161026/76a4a43acca107e84d3d22e591eac87d.jpg



https://pics.me.me/donald-trump-gets-award-from-jesse-jackson-for-hiring-black-26472516.png

Bill Skinner wrote on Nov 19^th, 2020 at 10:50am:

Consprency Theorists believe: Politicians and your government gives a hoot about you and have your best interests at heart. Political parties matter.  (See above) News media does not lie or spin their presentation. Big Pharma wants you to get well and have a healthy life. Fast Food is nutritious.

I'll had one more- "conspiracies don't exist"

When I travelled the US and Canada a couple years ago, I was amazed to see the amount of negative political adverts. I'm used to: Vote for this, because this is good for these reasons.
The discours I have witnessed was: This person is a monster! No, this person is the bigger monster!

I'm appalled about the toxicity of the political discourse, with a lack of separation of facts, emotions, the character of the responsible person in office, as well as a disparity in the perception of reality. From two parties which, from a eurocentric point of view, are both quite similar.

    I am reading a lot of straight up propaganda here.  First, let me say that because tRump got 6% of the Black vote in 2016 and 8% in 2020 doesn't prove that tRump isn't a racist any more than showing thirty plus year old pictures of him with a few famous Black people does.   https://www.vox.com/2020/11/4/21537966/trump-black-voters-exit-polls It only proves that a very small minority of Black voters can be duped into voting against their own best interests. 
     None of the charges (outright lies) against the Clintons were ever substantiated.  Neither has ever been charged let alone convicted of any of this nonsense despite a two decade long very expensive witch hunt paid for by us.  If you have proof I'd like to see it. Otherwise what you've posted is just so much bull poopy.   
      This conversation has disappointedly degenerated into something moronic that belongs on Facebook so at this point in the interest of keeping the peace I'll bow out. Enjoy your Fox News lies. 

I'm very sorry you feel that way Ratman. I am more sorry that people have talked and done the same activity for years simply get dismissed when they don't line up with a political tribe's line.

Rat Man wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2020 at 12:05pm:

I am reading a lot of straight up propaganda here.  First, let me say that because tRump got 6% of the Black vote in 2016 and 8% in 2020 doesn't prove that tRump isn't a racist any more than showing thirty plus year old pictures of him with a few famous Black people does.   https://www.vox.com/2020/11/4/21537966/trump-black-voters-exit-polls It only proves that a very small minority of Black voters can be duped into voting against their own best interests.       None of the charges (outright lies) against the Clintons were ever substantiated.  Neither has ever been charged let alone convicted of any of this nonsense despite a two decade long very expensive witch hunt paid for by us.  If you have proof I'd like to see it. Otherwise what you've posted is just so much bull poopy.          This conversation has disappointedly degenerated into something moronic that belongs on Facebook so at this point in the interest of keeping the peace I'll bow out. Enjoy your Fox News lies.

Talk about lack of self-awareness. 

You insinuate that Trump voters are white nationalist and Nazis, then get upset when we refute your claims with actual evidence.

Unlike you, I don't think you're a bad person for voting for the wrong side and against your own self interest.  It's clear you're just brainwashed and particularly gullible to the propaganda you've been fed your entire life.  I suggest turning off the TV for the next 10 years.

I think I'm done with politics now.

I think we're all done with politics in fact.

For the record, she got caught. FBI director Comey just decided NOT to press charges against her. Must be all that money, and influence they have.

Usually we do pretty good...ish on tough threads. I would say this one went further than I expected. Clearly, as JudoP pointed out, the answer is No.

My next thread will not have anything to do with politics or religion. I know that may sadden some of you but there it is.   ;)

Trumps and Bidding, just sounds like a stupid card game to me.... no offense

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-kON6yYad1Z0/X8hcRzsyA-I/AAAAAAAAOPw/Bnj1cl17ibUI2RuLDyw78TGp-Fo0gB5XgCK8BGAsYHg/s0/2020-12-02.jpg




https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Lmr6uEYzcJk/X8hcUsDSKII/AAAAAAAAOP0/mNYRVFV5BTsRUioQLVmHYkdMkvx0oOfeQCK8BGAsYHg/s0/2020-12-02.jpg




https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-_dUp1_rA_Ho/X8haLp1eJII/AAAAAAAAOPE/AG-WmY7e9C0BvuTYuS4WRmCMPqpsvrAIgCK8BGAsYHg/s0/2020-12-02.png





https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-NonN6aL9vgw/X8Rz82aT1TI/AAAAAAAAOI8/h2_ZgB69cgQsNVJgalFgSusIM5TwXX8MwCK8BGAsYHg/s0/2020-11-29.png




https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-GUv0oQIoK7s/X8ReqZFJ6HI/AAAAAAAAOIE/9sEK2DAIZpY_V9sgi5DH6B0zshK9NsS1wCK8BGAsYHg/s0/2020-11-29.jpg




https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-5v0Ier8t9vc/X8G_CzeyHiI/AAAAAAAAOFM/OXymObwtcSoEwM-Ympv_w6Q6KC4F2M_pgCK8BGAsYHg/s0/2020-11-27.png




https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-e0OewN6qXVI/X8Ffv0ngPTI/AAAAAAAAOEs/PcPMO-BakO0s-yH-yQZ3sZG9yp0xiBqPACK8BGAsYHg/s0/2020-11-27.gif





https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-PwhvkLIppfs/X8AZGPKnnTI/AAAAAAAAOCY/bFREEFUwEugRGdrCMv7HjriNfR8A8nFeQCK8BGAsYHg/s0/2020-11-26.jpg




This is extremely dangerous to our democracy:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZggCipbiHwE&ab_channel=Blyledge

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-election_lawsuits_related_to_the_2020_United_States_presidential_election

I guess we aren't done? All I'll say is that usually, if there is evidence, it gets presented to a trial and if it is compelling enough, it leads to the trial being won. Currently, there has not been a single lawsuit one. More than 30 of the legal challenges have failed so far. That's not a Democrat conspiracy it's just a fact. In over 30 lawsuits, the evidence that was presented (if any was presented) was found to be lacking. I don't know what to tell you man. I'm going to bust out Occam's Razor: Is it more believable that the Democrats have managed to rig 30+ court cases to decide in their favour (which would also have to bribe or influence a number of Republican judges and law makers) or that the Trump campaign are using these lawsuits to energise their base against the Democrats and use it is a fundraising tactic? Well they are currently having a fundraising drive for these lawsuits but only mention in the fine print that any donation less than $8K won't be going to the legal defense fund and instead will be going to... well... probably paying off Trump campaign expenses. Or his various other debts.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-trump-fundraising-insigh-idUSKBN27R309

Trump is a grifter. He grifts. He's always grifted and is continuing his grift. There are only two reasons he does anything: to inflate his ego and to inflate his bank balance.

You do know that the  POTUS makes $400,000 a year salary. Trump DOES, and has  donated all of it every year.

Thats all i am saying

@ vetryan15

Wish I was on that list :)

walter wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2020 at 7:37am:

@ vetryan15 Wish I was on that list :)

You're on my baked ham Christmas list, my friend. It's made with love. Some would say, in a small way, it's even better than $400,000. Not me, my loved ones or anyone I would respect, but some would.

Walter I hear ya. It would be nice to be on that list.



Morphy, sorry but i would take the money. Soi could buy tons of ham

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-JSC8AVFW1-Q/X8jy-JxTFFI/AAAAAAAAOQw/GwwT6SQJWKI6hdjSOatmwCiDJbUHCqkzACK8BGAsYHg/s0/2020-12-03.jpg




https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-yrkCNH2dPbw/X8jx17UOmEI/AAAAAAAAOQQ/YrWSE6FkFtM42G0i7M7djuY-Cd43Da9SACK8BGAsYHg/s0/2020-12-03.jpg




https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-EEgjRfOBLbo/X8jyOGeLqlI/AAAAAAAAOQc/StbTmlu4_tw0ZUss_jb7uRdQJjT_iaO2wCK8BGAsYHg/s0/2020-12-03.jpg




https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-D9LA9e6NQMg/X8jxRyGfGiI/AAAAAAAAOQI/fnGMqEl9gDAVaCJggTJ9SGYJtzKGIOhVwCK8BGAsYHg/s0/2020-12-03.jpg

vetryan15 wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2020 at 9:12am:

Walter I hear ya. It would be nice to be on that list. Morphy, sorry but i would take the money. Soi could buy tons of ham

Oh me as well. With that chunk of change I could pay the pig to bake himself.

Morphy wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2020 at 9:19am:

vetryan15 wrote on Dec 3rd, 2020 at 9:12am: Walter I hear ya. It would be nice to be on that list. Morphy, sorry but i would take the money. Soi could buy tons of ham Oh me as well. With that chunk of change I could pay the pig to bake himself.

I could  own probably my whole street, and kick all my neighbors off. Then i would have over 3000 acres to myself. Block off the street and have total privacy  Lol.

You asked for it.  Here comes the first of the evidence.

https://nationalfile.com/evidence-video-shows-georgia-vote-counters-pull-ballots-out-of-black-suitcases-after-sending-everyone-home/

Four suitcases full of ballot pulled out and counted after everyone else was sent home.

vetryan15 wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2020 at 4:03am:

You do know that the  POTUS makes $400,000 a year salary. Trump DOES, and has  donated all of it every year. Thats all i am saying

Drop in the bucket, Our politicians steal more than that in a year. In fact our cops have stolen more than that in a day. The public caught a bank robber as he exited the bank and the cops came and arrested him. By the time they'd searched his bag at the police station they only recovered $5000. He must have eaten and swallowed several hundred thousand.

Def-Con News brought you 10 Reasons Why The 2020 Election Results Are Fake. Those reasons were observations of anomalies and things that defied reality, all pointing to a stolen election. Here are some actual statistics and facts that prove 2020 wasn’t on the level. Putting everything together and the only conclusion is that Biden stole the White House.

Pollster Patrick Basham ran the numbers and nothing about 2020 makes a damn lick of sense. He laid out these reasons for The Spectator and they’re very compelling:

1 – Total vote:
President Trump received more votes than any previous incumbent seeking reelection. He got 11 million more votes than in 2016, the third largest rise in support ever for an incumbent. By way of comparison, President Obama was comfortably reelected in 2012 with 3.5 million fewer votes than he received in 2008.

Trump’s vote increased so much because, according to exit polls, he performed far better with many key demographic groups. Ninety-five percent of Republicans voted for him. He did extraordinarily well with rural male working-class whites.

2 – Minority vote:
He earned the highest share of all minority votes for a Republican since 1960. Trump grew his support among black voters by 50 percent over 2016. Nationally, Joe Biden’s black support fell well below 90 percent, the level below which Democratic presidential candidates usually lose.

3 – Hispanic vote:
Trump increased his share of the national Hispanic vote to 35 percent. With 60 percent or less of the national Hispanic vote, it is arithmetically impossible for a Democratic presidential candidate to win Florida, Arizona, Nevada, and New Mexico.

4 – History:
Bellwether states swung further in Trump’s direction than in 2016. Florida, Ohio and Iowa each defied America’s media polls with huge wins for Trump. Since 1852, only Richard Nixon has lost the electoral college after winning this trio, and that 1960 defeat to John F. Kennedy is still the subject of great suspicion.

5 – Cities
Midwestern states Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin always swing in the same direction as Ohio and Iowa, their regional peers. Ohio likewise swings with Florida. Current tallies show that, outside of a few cities, the Rust Belt swung in Trump’s direction. Yet, Biden leads in Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin because of an apparent avalanche of black votes in Detroit, Philadelphia, and Milwaukee. Biden’s ‘winning’ margin was derived almost entirely from such voters in these cities, as coincidentally his black vote spiked only in exactly the locations necessary to secure victory. He did not receive comparable levels of support among comparable demographic groups in comparable states, which is highly unusual for the presidential victor.

6 – Counties
We are told that Biden won more votes nationally than any presidential candidate in history. But he won a record low of 17 percent of counties; he only won 524 counties, as opposed to the 873 counties Obama won in 2008. Yet, Biden somehow outdid Obama in total votes.

7 – Down ballot votes:
Victorious presidential candidates, especially challengers, usually have down-ballot coattails; Biden did not. The Republicans held the Senate and enjoyed a ‘red wave’ in the House, where they gained a large number of seats while winning all 27 toss-up contests. Trump’s party did not lose a single state legislature and actually made gains at the state level.

8 – Impossibility:
Another anomaly is found in the comparison between the polls and non-polling metrics. The latter include: party registrations trends; the candidates’ respective primary votes; candidate enthusiasm; social media followings; broadcast and digital media ratings; online searches; the number of (especially small) donors; and the number of individuals betting on each candidate.

Despite poor recent performances, media and academic polls have an impressive 80 percent record predicting the winner during the modern era. But, when the polls err, non-polling metrics do not; the latter have a 100 percent record. Every non-polling metric forecast Trump’s reelection. For Trump to lose this election, the mainstream polls needed to be correct, which they were not. Furthermore, for Trump to lose, not only did one or more of these metrics have to be wrong for the first time ever, but every single one had to be wrong, and at the very same time; not an impossible outcome, but extremely unlikely nonetheless.

None of these thing point to a Biden victory and yet he was declared the winner of the 2020 election. The two things that stick out the most are 1) it was statistically impossible for Biden to have won Arizona, Nevada, and New Mexico and 2) Biden did worse with minorities everywhere but Detroit, Philadelphia, and Milwaukee.

The vote counting was a complete mess in those three cities and the vote totals from them are what gave Biden the states of Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin, as well as the 2020 election. You can literally pinpoint where the theft occurred and it was in these 3 cities.

As an added bonus, Basham detailed 9 examples of election theft:

1. Late on election night, with Trump comfortably ahead, many swing states stopped counting ballots. In most cases, observers were removed from the counting facilities. Counting generally continued without the observers

2. Statistically abnormal vote counts were the new normal when counting resumed. They were unusually large in size (hundreds of thousands) and had an unusually high (90 percent and above) Biden-to-Trump ratio

3. Late arriving ballots were counted. In Pennsylvania, 23,000 absentee ballots have impossible postal return dates and another 86,000 have such extraordinary return dates they raise serious questions

4. The failure to match signatures on mail-in ballots. The destruction of mail in ballot envelopes, which must contain signatures

5. Historically low absentee ballot rejection rates despite the massive expansion of mail voting. Such is Biden’s narrow margin that, as political analyst Robert Barnes observes, ‘If the states simply imposed the same absentee ballot rejection rate as recent cycles, then Trump wins the election’

6. Missing votes. In Delaware County, Pennsylvania, 50,000 votes held on 47 USB cards are missing

7. Non-resident voters. Matt Braynard’s Voter Integrity Project estimates that 20,312 people who no longer met residency requirements cast ballots in Georgia. Biden’s margin is 12,670 votes

8. Serious ‘chain of custody’ breakdowns. Invalid residential addresses. Record numbers of dead people voting. Ballots in pristine condition without creases, that is, they had not been mailed in envelopes as required by law

9. Statistical anomalies. In Georgia, Biden overtook Trump with 89 percent of the votes counted. For the next 53 batches of votes counted, Biden led Trump by the same exact 50.05 to 49.95 percent margin in every single batch. It is particularly perplexing that all statistical anomalies and tabulation abnormalities were in Biden’s favor. Whether the cause was simple human error or nefarious activity, or a combination, clearly something peculiar happened.

“Something Peculiar” should be the title of Joe Biden’s memoirs. Hair sniffing, letting kids rub his hairy legs, and “dog-faced pony soldier” are certainly not normal things. And neither are any of the “miracles” that happened to make him the next President of the United States.

The only people who believe Biden won the 2020 election fair and square are the ones who helped him steal the White House: democrats and the liberal media. No thinking person can look at this information and conclude that this election was in any way legitimate.

a wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2020 at 4:18pm:

vetryan15 wrote on Dec 3rd, 2020 at 4:03am: You do know that the  POTUS makes $400,000 a year salary. Trump DOES, and has  donated all of it every year. Thats all i am saying Drop in the bucket, Our politicians steal more than that in a year. In fact our cops have stolen more than that in a day. The public caught a bank robber as he exited the bank and the cops came and arrested him. By the time they'd searched his bag at the police station they only recovered $5000. He must have eaten and swallowed several hundred thousand.

Pretty sure that's cops everywhere. We have a literal sh*t ton of dirty cops here. It's sad but I don't know how to stop it.

https://youtu.be/DrKuC74jdNc

What a hero.

Just like I was saying with Kick, there's also lots of bad cops but the good ones are absolutely amazing people.

Morphy wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2020 at 5:28pm:

but the good ones are absolutely amazing people.

We don't have any good ones. There is zero accountability here.

Netflix has or had rights to an amazing Ukranian series called "Servant of the People". Sits on the shelf next to "yes minister" and "yes prime minister" as some of my favorite political humor.

One of the things that jumped out was the understood level of corruption. For all that I detest the corruption in the US, COMPARATIVELY, it's much better in the US than in a lot of the world. Had a similar moment watching netflix's "better than us" which was done by russians, and again, the acknowledged and overt corruption is a different level. And it's just backdrop, part of setting rather than a focus.

Which is to say I believe you Kilisi. And once the rot gets to that level, I don't know how to get it into reasonable limits. Sure I'd like to get rid of it entirely but I try to stay grounded.

a wrote on Nov 30^th, 2020 at 4:50pm:

Morphy wrote on Nov 30th, 2020 at 4:36pm: Yep pretty much. Not every American is for that by the way. We feel just as powerless to stop that stuff as you probably do. You're more powerless than us. We always have options (but not always the will) to fight back. At the end of the day I personally just want to be someone I can be proud of and set a clean example for my kids to follow. The big picture will play out on it's own.

You're a wise man.

perpetualstudent wrote on Dec 4^th, 2020 at 12:32pm:

Which is to say I believe you Kilisi. And once the rot gets to that level, I don't know how to get it into reasonable limits. Sure I'd like to get rid of it entirely but I try to stay grounded.

In large parts of the world corruption is funded by the US, other parts it's funded by China or other first World countries. Once that funding collapses the corruption will collapse in a splash of blood, at least for a while. In the Pacific Islands it's mostly NZ and Australia who fund it and have pledged their militaries to put down any uprisings if the peasants don't like it. Every so often a show of force demonstration is made of what will happen in case people forget.

So with elections next year millions in aid money are pouring into the country, everyone knows this money will be stolen and fund bribes and election campaigns. Thats just normal and realistically thats what the money is sent for.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beYDa8B82tA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgxXSfto6Vo

AncientCraftwork wrote on Dec 18^th, 2020 at 7:13am:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beYDa8B82tA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgxXSfto6Vo

Don't worry J I've been assured nothing like that could ever happen.

Oh man... if that dystopian alternate reality is accurate, then I’m really glad I’m not a road sign. It llooks like everyone hates those signs!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Tcwz8-EfFYE

Alternative ? It's the world right now
https://twitter.com/tkerssen/status/1266921821653385225

Yeah...
That is missing some context J.  Also, those are paintballs. Look at how real despots treat non-compliance.  That may be obnoxious to the homeowner, but nobody was hurt. I don’t think they would get off that easy in China, Hong Kong, Russia, Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea, Iran...

We don’t know why the National Guard was there, and yes, they were jerks, but that’s no dystopia.

While we are definitely not up there with some countries and not a dystopian society we seem to be headed in that way. But I think that’s the nature of all societies. Regardless if they start out free, they usually end up going into tyranny or destruction.

AncientCraftwork wrote on Dec 18^th, 2020 at 7:13am:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beYDa8B82tA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgxXSfto6Vo

I saw the second one advertised. Anyone else think that is just too soon?

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Dec 18^th, 2020 at 5:07pm:

Also, those are paintballs.

https://www.google.com/search?q=pepperball+injuries&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi24oTm3drtAhVko4sKHYYtBFYQ_AUoAXoECAQQAw&biw=1536&bih=754

I stopped caring about paintball, rubber bullet and tear gas wounds when they started burning innocent people's businesses to the ground. You hate the rich and politicians there are plenty of politicians and ultra rich for you to voice your complaints against. You come in my house looking to do violence you better be able to dodge bullets.

Police with pepper balls are a mercy compared with the escalation you will get from self-organized under-disciplined self-defense forces who are more likely to cause even greater collateral damage.   Compare those pepperball injuries to the two boys who were murdered by CHAZ “security forces” when they accidentally took a wrong turn too fast and came flying towards a barricade. I’ll take the police with non-lethals instead,  thank you very much.

Trump signed it.  22% for Americans, 77% for people who hate us, 1% to give themselves a raise.


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-1X7NJFNq5SA/X-KrURrxmQI/AAAAAAAAO4s/J7HbIuH9pQoSAAfQQ_CQKi0hmzoLhzL7QCK8BGAsYHg/s0/2020-12-22.jpg





https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-WyudGOelEq4/X-TBJbgXRMI/AAAAAAAAO7Y/TIvUBAP6ei8-2Pgo1nb9D0_rOKnjfZpDACK8BGAsYHg/s0/2020-12-24.jpg

Um... You guys ok over there in the US?

Kind of looks a little bit like an attempted violent coup...

Hope you guys work that one out.

This has been going on for years. Just a different group doing it now.

Its just another day in paradise.  Maybe the government will listen this time, but i highly dubt it.

Definitely NOT a coup. It was mostly peaceful.  But that depends on what news channel u watch

Media called it "violent" because it's right wing, not left wing.  Really wasn't.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/1-06-2021/Pvb4kJ.gif

Will I guess you have a point, police allowed them through with little resistance compared to previous protests because those other protests were about police brutality and the killing of black people by police whereas this was the suppression of democracy instigated by an orange facist.

It was “mostly peaceful”.

Crazy times these.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl3a1hh1hHQ

Nonviolent except for that pipe bomb they found.

Kick wrote on Jan 6^th, 2021 at 8:32pm:

Nonviolent except for that pipe bomb they found.

... and the girl who was shot and killed. My guess is that it was an accidental/negligent discharge... meaning she wasn’t killed on purpose, but it’s not even clear who pulled the trigger yet.

This is a tense and dangerous situation, and I don’t see a clear path to de-escalation for either side of the political aisle. That means it may get worse before it gets better. I really hope I’m wrong about that.

It was ,mostly  non violent compared to ANTIFA  and BLM, who do alot worse.  There are a few crazytrump supporters that are that crazy. But most are not, plus they didn't breech. The police let them in. There is video of that

No offence Ryan but they smashed there way through doors and windows and forced their way into the capitol building to disrupt the democratic process. They were straight up committing sedition. Sedition encouraged and supported by Trump and senior members of the Republican party. I know for a lot of people it upsetting for them that Biden won, but, and really I don't mean to upset people but, facts don't care about your feelings and this lot are really coming across as a bunch of snowflakes.

If you are so against trump supporters. Which is a very small majority on actually did the protest. Most were just standing around, unlike what was shown on severel left leaning media stations, they were portraying it as violent.
Why is NO ONE saying the same thing for ANTIFA and BLM. those are the snowflakes.looks like a bunch of hypocrites.
There is a reason why i left NJ and moved 15 hours away. I  actually have family ties to the BIDEN family. That whole family are nothing but POS, thats from personal experience.  For the record, ALL politicians lie, and dont care about the averages American.  When in a recent poll 30% of Democrats said they think there was fraud in the election. I wont be getting all crazy like some members here, but for the record when the USA that i served in the military to protect is turning into a 3rd world country I dont like it. But be warned,  i will be protecting my land, and my family.

  The founding fathers did not want there to be career politicians for this excact scenario going on. U have politicans that make $170,000 a year. Just to sit on their ass to make laws. Which IMO should only make minimum wage, live in government subsidized apartments,  and WANT to serve our country. Not to get rich. Thats why u see on tv the crazy poopy going on. Normal people are sick of these people who think they are gods. They need to get knocked down a few pegs. I live by the moto. DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR. If the politicans did that. My country would be better.


There is video circulating that the police opened up the barricade, and backed off letting them through.

No you see Kick we've said for the last 4 years that it's just the opposite. Feelings are more important than facts. This is the logical outgrowth.

The core of BLM is critical race theory which says "there is no legitimacy because the entire system is corrupted". Remember "NOT MY PRESIDENT"? "RESIST"? baseless court cases that even RBG joined in slapping down? Legal due process being replaced with hashtags? California attempting international actions?

Don't get me wrong. I will condemn this as strongly as I condemned the democratic mob going over barriers during Supreme Court nominations. I will condemn use of explosives with protests as strongly as I did the "mostly peaceful" protests that used molotovs and black powder explosives. I will condemn violence. The difference is I've been doing it all along and warning that our continued assault against "legitimacy" would yield bad results.

Don't worry though, this isn't the start of our second civil war. We haven't yelled at each other across the fault line yet. We've got another 10-50 years before we start burning each other's houses down and gunning down the survivors who try to run out.

"Behold you have sown the wind and reaped the whirlwind"

It really bothered me when US representatives made blanket statements about the people as “domestic terrorists”. There may have been some of those present, but that bomb was found outside the RNC... so that terrorist was probably not aTrump supporter... but who knows?  The problem with rhetoric that conflates all frustrated, disenfranchised Trump supporters with a handful of rioters and possibly one or two actual terrorists in the crowd is that it paves the way for purges of political opponents. Not good.

I never heard this kind of rhetoric from these politicians when rioters were burning innocent small businesses to the ground in Wisconsin or Oregon, but break a few windows in the Capital (which is not ok) and suddenly everyone in the crowd becomes a “domestic terrorist”. I heard both Republicans and Democrats say that on the House Floor last night.

Yeah, that’s definitely going to defuse the situation. Well done everyone.

The republicans don't act as a check on the Democrats any more. They are merely a poorly working brake who slows them done from going in the direction they want as fast as they want. I'm not a Republican my point here is that America is essentially a one party state at this point when you add in the power of the media.

The media is too strong right now and they essentially legitimize or deligitimize any issue in many peoples minds simply with a hashtag and a headline. They have become almost the Ministry of Truth.

Which is why this is so interesting to many of us when people were being chopped up and cities burned it was all about protecting the peoples rights against tyranny. Now that it's far less people, far more peacefully it's suddenly the end of the world.

We need to be balanced here and I don't see that happening anytime soon hence this country is about to pull a Fight Club and beat the hell out of itself.

Only thing I disagree with you on PerpetualStudent is the potential 50 year time span. Our children will be telling their children about the second great civil war by that point.

My wife is 8 months pregnant with my 3rd kid (supposed to be my first son). I pray to God we're wrong Morphy.

perpetualstudent wrote on Jan 7^th, 2021 at 8:43am:

My wife is 8 months pregnant with my 3rd kid (supposed to be my first son). I pray to God we're wrong Morphy.

Me too. For you and yours and mine I hope so.

I'll say this- both sides are wrong to riot, to break and fight for political goals.

However, this latest incident is very different from the more protracted protesting/rioting/looting coming from the left of the political spectrum. The latest incident is a direct attack on the democratic process itself and (pretty much) incited by Trump himself. I don't think a lot of people on the right realise the seriousness of this kind of thing- these sort of events are how civil wars begin and democracies turn into autocracies. It sounds alarmist, but it will always sound alarmist until it actually happens, and then it's too late.

That's not to give a pass to the antifa crowd who senselessly wreck property, beat people and more because of their wrong headed ideological bent. Antifa in name, but more fa in nature. I will note they have gotten away with it for a long time without proper condemnation in the mainstream also. No friend of the reasonable left, they drive the middle ground to Trump.

Looking at both these groups I see one commonality. Both groups will happily subvert democratic process to impose their will on a larger majority. Both have their own (incorrect) justifications for doing so, but such justifications are easy to come up with if you value tribal and ideological allegiance over a sober headed look at the evidence and context. Unfortunately it's almost impossible to reason with these people and once there is a critical mass of them, I fear civil war becomes inevitable.

Below I've attached one of the most worrying graphs I've seen in recent history, which shows an alarming leap in the number of people who think violence is justified to achieve their political goals. Note how the trend is nearly equal for both the right and the left. Observe the real threat you have to guard against is not right or left but in the growing violent and antidemocratic fringe of both sides.

---

“I do not believe that the solution to our problem is simply to elect the right people. The important thing is to establish a political climate of opinion which will make it politically profitable for the wrong people to do the right thing. Unless it is politically profitable for the wrong people to do the right thing, the right people will not do the right thing either, or it they try, they will shortly be out of office.”

― Milton Friedman

JudoP wrote on Jan 7^th, 2021 at 9:03am:

However, this latest incident is very different from the more protracted protesting/rioting/looting coming from the left of the political spectrum. The latest incident is a direct attack on the democratic process itself and (pretty much) incited by Trump himself.

See that's the thing. Each side sees their own actions as "on the line" while the other's are clearly "past the line". We had months of riots given a pass as "mostly peaceful" despite their radical philosophy. And we did have a left wing mob go over the barriers at the capitol 2 years ago and it was not condemned. The philosophy of Antifa and BLM being encouraged by the leaders of the political left over hte last 4 escalated this. That's not a pass to the right. They've each played with fire and now things are catching.





JudoP wrote on Jan 7^th, 2021 at 9:03am:

Looking at both these groups I see one commonality. Both groups will happily subvert democratic process to impose their will on a larger majority.

Yes. Because they each see themselves as representing Truth and Justice. The fiddly bits of process are getting in the way and the PEOPLE are crying out for Justice.

Attacking legitimacy was a fool's errand and as your graph horrifyingly shows the middle joins the extremes. I've been sounding the dangers of this since I saw the pew poll  8 years ago that showed we were more concerned with marrying into the other political tribe than out of our religion.

A friend of mine once said, “Do the right thing, and then face the consequences.”

One of the consequences of doing the right thing is that we cannot respond in kind when someone else does the wrong thing.  You sometimes feel like they are “getting away with it”, and that’s frustrating, but we need to each apply our values to ourselves first, and others second.

Anyone who has ever tried to raise children and turn them into halfway decent human beings knows how difficult it is to follow your own values consistently, but that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t try. Plus, if you want grace for the times you screw up, you should be willing to give grace to others as well.

Quote:

See that's the thing. Each side sees their own actions as "on the line" while the other's are clearly "past the line". We had months of riots given a pass as "mostly peaceful" despite their radical philosophy. And we did have a left wing mob go over the barriers at the capitol 2 years ago and it was not condemned. The philosophy of Antifa and BLM being encouraged by the leaders of the political left over hte last 4 escalated this. That's not a pass to the right. They've each played with fire and now things are catching.

Oh I totally agree both cases are over the line, however you cannot ignore that this particular action over the last 24h was in a very critical place at a very dangerous time, pretty much directed by Trump himself. Attempted violent interference with democratic process is a very different thing to indiscriminate looting and burning- but- to be fair the left wing riots have been far more widespread and widely accepted/ignored. In fact the mainstream acceptance and proliferation of some of the extreme left ideas is probably the most worrying thing about the extreme left.
Either way, it's pointless to try weigh up which 'side' is worse, both sides are different in many ways that are worth understanding but what unites them is their antidemocratic predispositions and this is where the danger flows from.

I don’t like all the talk about civil war as if that is an inevitability. It’s not!  Everyone says “I don’t want it” while speaking about it with resignation. This at a time when Americans are arming themselves at unprecedented rates.  It doesn’t matter who strikes the match if we all built the powder keg. This forum is an excellent example of people from all walks of life coming together and treating one another with respect in spite of different perspectives. If we fight for anything, let’s fight to preserve civility and prevent escalation... starting with ourselves and how we respond to crazy events like this.

it is pointless to tot up the errors on both sides. Both sides want the other to show grace, neither is willing to because they (with justification on both sides) expect no mercy to be shown.

Takes 2 to fight but only one to have a beat down. Group vs group fights take place very much like a person vs person. Insults first. Then a poke in the chest. Then a shove. Then a harder shove. Then a fist. Each step is more wrong than the previous step but in the same direction. Where do we say "that started the fight?" Sure the fist is worse but a double handed shove to the chest is already fighting. And the poke in the chest before that was legally battery. It doesn't stop unless both sides agree. As long as they just focus on the last infraction (and the injustice of it) they feel justified to take matters into their own hands because otherwise injustice wins.

It would take statesmen on both sides of the aisle to castigate both sides for their errors and focus on working together to turn us from the path. I don't see that happening. Much as I want it to.

perpetualstudent wrote on Jan 7^th, 2021 at 11:20am:

It would take statesmen on both sides of the aisle to castigate both sides for their errors and focus on working together to turn us from the path. I don't see that happening. Much as I want it to.

Then BE that statesman within your realm of influence.

Certainly I try, even in this thread, but none of us really matters that much and an ant cannot derail a freight train.

Not inevitable but certainly more likely than any other time I can think of since the last civil war.

One of the big problems I'm seeing is people dehumanizing the other side. You see guillotine memes now popping up and I think that's indicative of the late hour we are in.  The other is the intense anger I see normally rational people snap into at the smallest disagreement in politics is almost indicative of some type of pathology. Well I say smallest disagreement but in their minds there's always justification to make every issue into a big deal justifying whatever response they wanted all along.

  It's very strange. We are a sick society.  Nothing good will come from continuing in this path and those people wanting death will likely get there fill early on.

These days I feel like the best answer is to simply state what you feel and don't give a damn if someone else on either side gets their feelings hurt.

Go to https://deagel.com/forecast and look at the 2025 Forecast for the world.

They predict the US population is to be a mere 99 million in 2025 compared to 326 in 2020.
Germany from 80 million to 26 million
United Kingdom from 66 million to 14 million
France from 67 million to 39 million

For the other see their website


  ''After COVID we can draw two major conclusions:

    The Western world success model has been built over societies with no resilience that can barely withstand any hardship, even a low intensity one. It was assumed but we got the full confirmation beyond any doubt.
    The COVID crisis will be used to extend the life of this dying economic system through the so called Great Reset.

The Great Reset; like the climate change, extinction rebellion, planetary crisis, green revolution, shale oil (…) hoaxes promoted by the system; is another attempt to slow down dramatically the consumption of natural resources and therefore extend the lifetime of the current system. It can be effective for awhile but finally won’t address the bottom-line problem and will only delay the inevitable. The core ruling elites hope to stay in power which is in effect the only thing that really worries them.

The collapse of the Western financial system - and ultimately the Western civilization - has been the major driver in the forecast along with a confluence of crisis with a devastating outcome. As COVID has proven Western societies embracing multiculturalism and extreme liberalism are unable to deal with any real hardship. So far, COVID death toll is roughly 1 million people. It is quite likely that the economic crisis due to the lockdowns will cause more deaths than the virus worldwide.

The collapse of the Soviet system wiped out 10 percent of the population. The stark reality of diverse and multicultural Western societies is that a collapse will have a toll of 50 to 80 percent depending on several factors but in general terms the most diverse, multicultural, indebted and wealthy (highest standard of living) will suffer the highest toll.''

,

---

LOL... that photo is hilarious if you can ignore how serious the situation is long enough to laugh at it ::)

@J the funny thing about predictions is that most of them are wrong. Those assumptions are highly speculative, and it greatly underestimates the resiliency of western culture.

There may be a group who believes climate change or global consumption, or something else will doom us all, and an elitist subset may decide it's better to doom some than to doom all based on their misguided beiliefs.  That sounds like a movie plot more than reality but it’s plausible I suppose. That's not unlike the Mongols who wanted free and open lands to roam and forage on... at the expense of all the people who used to live on those lands. 

Your best defense is to be resilient.  I think the folks on this forum are more likely to cope with a downgrade to their lifestyle than many people.  Fear is natural and healthy when it incites caution, but it is detrimental when it causes panicked responses.  When unintended consequences happen, those panicked responses may actually be worse than what they are meant to prevent.

I've been saying for years that the US will be the first major power brought down solely by the weight of their delusions. There's flags and such in the footage of multiple conspiracy theory cults being present, and when you look at our politics in general there's a lot more delusions:

Like the next administration will fix everything, for example. Another good one is that there's anything other than a good-cop/bad-cop political system here in the US.

Climate change deniers. Flat Earthers. Reformists believing they can fix things without any significant discomfort for themselves or others. Anti-Vaxers. Deep-State theorists. Racial supremacists. The Cult of the Bootstraps. Economic-ist cultists. Grafton, NH. The cult of Technology-as-savior. The free-market cult. The Planned Economy cult.

Most importantly, the delusion of American Exceptionalism has to be the most dangerous. Carthage, Rome, Athens, and the British all at one point thought they were a people apart, set out for a special destiny among nations. I think we all know where that landed them; America is no different.

All of these stem from willful ignorance and the rejection of anything that makes you uncomfortable. We conditioned that into people through telling them they were always right (because the customer's always right!); that a legitimate goal in life is the avoidance of discomfort. We trained people that failure is to be avoided at all costs and everything is about competition and the market. Everybody gets a trophy, nobody loses, nobody learns how to deal with loss or failure in a healthy way. Self-aggrandizement and acquisitiveness are now considered virtues.

What we're seeing the logical result of this willful stupidity and self-interest. It's really hard to watch the country I've given 6 years of my life to (not counting civil service) flail itself part like a destabilized jet engine, but that's where we're potentially at right now.

We always have the option to change, but that's not going to happen until we deal with the underlying real problems which lead to these situations: Mostly they come down to ignorance, poverty, and a chronically unresponsive government and society which does little to nothing to help its people. Those are very heavy weights to clear away.

Do I have to be in a cult to believe conspiracies exist?

https://www.bbc.com/news/55572805

It becomes a cult when there's no basis for the claim of conspiracy: To believe that Wells Fargo conspired to commit fraud is one thing, because they did and there is evidence which can be traced.

To base the claim on nothing aside from faith brings it to the level of a cult.

Pizzagate is a great example of this elevation to cult status: The place targeted didn't even have a basement for the claimed conspiracy to happen in. People in the cult still believe the whole conspiracy theory despite all the clams being debunked by solid evidence to the contrary.

Refusing to adapt to new information about a conspiracy, or lack thereof, makes it a cult or delusion.

Morphy wrote on Jan 8^th, 2021 at 6:23am:

Do I have to be in a cult to believe conspiracies exist?

Conspiracy needs a precise definition. To me, a conspiracy simply means more than one person working together in secret to accomplish an illegal goal. That happens all the time. The scale of conspiracy required by many conspiracy theories requires hundreds or thousands of people to keep the secret until they reach the goal, and that’s why they are usually implausible.

You don’t need to conspire to individually work towards a common goal though, and multiple mutually beneficial conspiracies may happen without communication between them.

Okay I can't be arsed to read through 8 pages.
So I'll just add a general comment on the actual thread title.

Are we done with politics ?

Unfortunately not.

Our whole civilisation relies on them to function.
Does the invasion of congress have anything to do with politics ?
Nope.

The people who believe what donald trump says - are not engaged in politics. They are most definitely cult members.

To those of us in the world outside america, there was nothing surprising about the invasion of congress - it's simply the obvious culmination of having a political system that can put a venal sociopath with almost no political experience or beliefs into power and given the job of running a country.

If the protestors had been ANYONE other than trump supporters, there would most likely have been a massacre.
There would certainly have been a vastly greater number of security personnel on duty - most likely national guard units. Tear gas and rubber bullets - or just bullets, it is america - would most definitely have been employed.

It's pretty obvious that trump made sure the security was too light and then urged them to invade congress and disrupt the actual political process that was ongoing.   

Throughout the last 5 years I have never understood how anyone could believe a single thing trump says.
He can and frequently does, contradict himself several times in the same day.
But still his supporters/followers/worshippers believe every single thing he says - and against all evidence to the contrary, think he actually has america's best interests in mind.

It has to be a cult or some kind of brainwashing.
How can military veterans support a man who - during his presidency - defrauded charities set up to benefit vets, and as a consequence is now banned from running those charities.

It's not hearsay - it's publically accessible court records !

There is something very wrong with how trump's supporters think and behave.
I don't know if it's some function of how america is setup with each state almost being a seperate country and the us lackng anything that might be called a reliable national news service.
Or simply down to subliminal programming.
But there is little doubt that people have clearly been brainwashed.

I suppose it could be called a religion. The lack of any kind of concrete evidence and the pure blind belief in what an individual says - despite every single tangible thing contradicting them - is how most religions start.

I mean if you worship a volcano, it's pretty clear the volcano exists and occasionally gets upset and melts the odd village or three.

If you worshipan an ideal and an intangible being - then that's based solely on belief.
And while trump might well be tangible, the thnigs people worship about him are all 100% intangible and nonexistent.

I suppose that religion has always been a large part of american politics - much more so than in most western countries.

Has it now become everything ?

I don't know, I hope not.

Given how the majority of americans voted in the last two elections - it would seem that there is still some hope left.

What happens in the next 4 years, could well determine if religion or politics will rule.
We'll have to see.

I'm not a fan of either religion or politics, but if we have to have one system, then at least politics is based on human interest and giving the majority some of what they want.
Religion is based solely on giving priests what they tell you your god wants. Or in trumps case, the god telling you directly.

Both are poor ways to run a society, but if you got to pick one - then politics has the potential to do the most good for the most people.
Sort of, lol 

Easy there CA or else I might have to start talking about Brexit!

at least it was a president, not a king who went mad. I mean, can you imagine? A king who was medically insane?  :P

I kid the brits but the American (and eventual western) elevation of "democracy" to constitute legitimacy has not changed how humans are nor solved the fundamental problems of human organization. As the joke goes "the second oldest profession bears a striking resemblance to the first."

Most if not all non Americans,  just dont understand that

1st he was elected due to being the lesser of 2 evils. 2016 against Hilary.  Research how most people cross the Clintons end up dead.

2nd there was fraud in 2020 election. Biden is scum. Personal experience.

We didnt want another career politican,  someone who it took 47 years to become president after numerous attempts at getting the office. With plenty of his own scan

vetryan15 wrote on Jan 8^th, 2021 at 2:14pm:

2nd there was fraud in 2020 election

That would be the fraud that has absolutely no tangible proof attached to it and has failed to materialise in the over 50 court cases brought against the election that have been thrown out or ruled against due to lack of evidence? The court cases presided over by Democrats and Republicans including the Supreme Court that Trump attempted to stack in his favour? There is no evidence of fraud. There just isn't. Oh, except those isolated cases of Trump supporters voting for their dead mothers or attempting to vote twice, which is what Trump told his supporters to do. Should I link the video?

Most media is biased against Trump, so its most likely already doctored against him. This has turned into a bash Trump thread. But no surprise. 

You cant convince me that the US elected a skeleton that is close to being on his death bed, and him being one of the most compromised, senators.  Obama even has comments aainst him. the Democrats have been known to let dead people vote, 5 to 20 years after they died.

Once one of the parties manages to get the unborn voter it's all over.

Morphy wrote on Jan 8^th, 2021 at 3:00pm:

Once one of the parties manages to get the unborn voter it's all over.

Give it time. Wouldn't surprise me then

First CA manages to combine relgion and politics, then Morphy throws in abortion?!  Wow.  Let's just get it out of the way now:  Everyone who has said anything at all on this thread is literally Hitler.

There. Now that we have instantiated Godwin's Law, let's get back to having saner conversations.

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Jan 8^th, 2021 at 3:49pm:

First CA manages to combine relgion and politics, then Morphy throws in abortion?!  Wow.  Let's just get it out of the way now:  Everyone who has said anything at all on this thread is literally Hitler. There. Now that we have instantiated Godwin's Law, let's get back to having saner conversations.

That sh1t right there is exactly what Hitler would say. Guarantee NOOCs next thread he will half heartedly joke about invading Poland for the choice LOLs. This man must be watched. I'm still not convinced he's not some super advanced AI.

Well Morphy since we have both established that you are literally Hitler and also the effigeal love child thereof, the only thing left to say is that, logically, you must also be your own grandpa.

Also, the LIBERATION of Poland is nothing to joke about.

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Jan 8^th, 2021 at 8:37pm:

Well Morphy since we have both established that you are literally Hitler and also the effigeal love child thereof, the only thing left to say is that, logically, you must also be your own grandpa. Also, the LIBERATION of Poland is nothing to joke about.

Quick disclaimer: For anyone who doesn’t appreciate or understand the humor in this tongue-in-cheek conversation, this is 100% a joke.  It does not make light of the Holocaust; rather I am mocking those who are serious about comparing others to Hitler because of petty disagreements.

Ya I sometimes forget I'm not sitting around with the guys having a beer. That's easy when I'm sh!t talking with you NOOC.

But Hitler for all intents and purposes is like Voldemort. I think possibly more so over in Europe where he's a little more close to home and where people might be a little more apprehensive of using that name. He's sort of a joke over here these days.  As soon as everyone began being accused  of being "literally as bad as Hitler " for the dumbest things he jumped the shark. 

One of my favorite styles of humor is to say things so absurd that it is funny... but I tend to say it in a way that sounds serious, and then rely on the person I am talking to to think about it, recognize the absurdity, and arrive at the punchline. It’s especially fun to watch someone’s face when they walk through that mental process... but this is the Internet, so no matter how absurd I may think something is, someone will probably think that I am being serious and stop at the face value of the statement instead of reflecting on what I am really communicating.

Consequently, that’s also how I feel about the lie that Trump’s base is nothing but a bunch of racists and neo-nazis. It’s absurd, and yet somehow people still believe it wholeheartedly. What troubles me about that is that if you buy that line, then you also have to believe that there are enough despicable people to get Trump elected, which leads to believing that America is a pretty despicable place overall. That’s not consistent with my observations of normal everyday people.

In the past I’ve often rolled my eyes when people compared the American Ruling Class to Nazis, Stalinists, or other totalitarian governments. I’ve always felt it was a gross exaggeration that diminished the citizens who really did suffer under these regimes. No more. Short of extermination camps, we have become the modern day equivalent of everything represented by these terrible societies. All of our free speech and other civil liberties are systematically being stripped away. All of the institutions of influence–mainstream media, Hollywood, Big Tech, education, TV, social media, etc.–have been taken over by Deep State socialists. Our only remaining outlet for correcting wrongs–elections–have become ridiculously corrupted, and simply discussing election irregularities is now deemed “inciting violence,” leading to complete bans from social media. And to complete the totalitarian repertoire, the Ruling Class is demonizing and attacking an entire class of people–Trump supporters. Is it any wonder anger has boiled to a level not seen since 1861?!

(I'm not this eloquent, so I just copied and pasted.)

Deep State socialists. America is a strange place. Good name for a punk band.

Morphy- Guarantee NOOCs next thread he will half heartedly joke about invading Poland for the choice LOLs.


NooneOfConsequence wrote on Jan 9^th, 2021 at 11:05am:

Also, the LIBERATION of Poland is nothing to joke about ...I tend to say it in a way that sounds serious, then rely on the person I am talking to to think about it, recognize the absurdity, and arrive at the punchline. It’s especially fun to watch someone’s face when they walk through that mental process...

You don’t say?  :o.  ;D

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Jan 9^th, 2021 at 11:05am:

One of my favorite styles of humor is to say things so absurd that it is funny...

on that note:

The people were representatives of Mr Trump, they where there for diplomatic talks with politicians, thus the policemen let them in, the politicians afraid they are going to lose on a debate that would uncover trillions of dollars of theft and bribery, they used their assassins in acts of violence leading to a hot diplomatic episode. The politicians named the representatives of MrTrump tenorists so they can nullify their diplomatic immunity. Now public opinion encourages the manhunt of those who acted against those who acted against the public. Oceania seems to be done with politics. There is no more will for talks between its diverse people.

https://www.bitchute.com/video/1eQQ4c1url5a/

Hmmm...

AncientCraftwork wrote on Jan 9^th, 2021 at 4:46pm:

https://www.bitchute.com/video/1eQQ4c1url5a/ Hmmm...

J is this an example of absurdity humor or are you suggesting that this video (where the audio doesn’t match the video at all) is somehow serious?

This would not be the first time a General dropped a big political secret. I have no problem with the quality of the video or the incorrect dubbing. Both of those are not that uncommon. However I would like to see if that voice matches up to verified recordings of him speaking. If it does that makes it much more interesting.

I'd want to know why they didn't bring forward any of this evidence in the many trials they lost. The 50+ trials where they didn't bring any compelling evidence at all.

Morphy wrote on Jan 9^th, 2021 at 7:48pm:

This would not be the first time a General dropped a big political secret. I have no problem with the quality of the video or the incorrect dubbing. Both of those are not that uncommon. However I would like to see if that voice matches up to verified recordings of him speaking. If it does that makes it much more interesting.

Deepfake audio has grown quite sophisticated.  If you have enough samples of someone's voice, you could replicate their voice and make it appear as if they are saying whatever you want.  Deepfake video is easier to spot as fake, but if you took a real video and dubbed over it with fake audio, it might look a lot like the audio is not sync'ed up.  I'm not saying that's what happened here, but it always makes me suspicious when the lips don't match the sounds.

There are videos where the lips do synch out there. Don't know why this one doesn't.

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Jan 11^th, 2021 at 8:44am:

Morphy wrote on Jan 9th, 2021 at 7:48pm: This would not be the first time a General dropped a big political secret. I have no problem with the quality of the video or the incorrect dubbing. Both of those are not that uncommon. However I would like to see if that voice matches up to verified recordings of him speaking. If it does that makes it much more interesting. Deepfake audio has grown quite sophisticated.  If you have enough samples of someone's voice, you could replicate their voice and make it appear as if they are saying whatever you want.  Deepfake video is easier to spot as fake, but if you took a real video and dubbed over it with fake audio, it might look a lot like the audio is not sync'ed up.  I'm not saying that's what happened here, but it always makes me suspicious when the lips don't match the sounds.

Deep fakes you say? My my whatever is that my good Sir? I try to stay open minded about this stuff . Remember the one where that well known journalist talking to someone over a hot mic at the White House where he says some stuff that was potentially inflammatory about covid?

Many people in a desire to disregard it incorrectly claimed the audio was fake. In fact it was completely real and unedited. Of course the rumors people were spreading about it were not accurate but that's irrelevant. Had it been something more nefarious those people still would've disregarded it.

That happens all the time. All. the. time. Lol.  People by design don't want to believe bad news. No harm hearing it and not passing judgment until I have more facts as far as I'm concerned.

See for yourself what a deep fake can do:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=deep+fake

I've watched some fairly good deep fakes of Emma Watson for... eh, research.   Yeah, research.  These particular fakes had to be purposely bad enough so as to not get sued.

Oxnate wrote on Jan 11^th, 2021 at 4:13pm:

I've watched some fairly good deep fakes of Emma Watson for... eh, research.   Yeah, research.  These particular fakes had to be purposely bad enough so as to not get sued.

Was your research a success?

Morphy wrote on Jan 12^th, 2021 at 8:15pm:

Oxnate wrote on Jan 11th, 2021 at 4:13pm: I've watched some fairly good deep fakes of Emma Watson for... eh, research.   Yeah, research.  These particular fakes had to be purposely bad enough so as to not get sued. Was your research a success?

A rousing success.   8-)

Yet again... it’s just astonishing that none of the women who join the forum stick around for long. Quite a mystery!

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Jan 12^th, 2021 at 10:44pm:

Yet again... it’s just astonishing that none of the women who join the forum stick around for long. Quite a mystery!

I've known some pretty freaky women. Some of their porn would make a sailor blush. While others just make you scratch your head and say "Why must this exist?" Tentacle porn I'm looking at you.

Oh i know that ^^^ i have a creepy story about it.  Not sure if i should post it though.

Vet WTF man lol. That's a party foul. But you have my number if you feel like story time lol.

Morphy wrote on Jan 13^th, 2021 at 4:38am:

Vet WTF man lol. That's a party foul. But you have my number if you feel like story time lol.

Oh i will send it to you today. Its creepy.

We may not be done with politics, but I am DEFINITELY done with whatever Morphy and vet are talking about!

Morphy wrote on Jan 13^th, 2021 at 2:58am:

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Jan 12th, 2021 at 10:44pm: Yet again... it’s just astonishing that none of the women who join the forum stick around for long. Quite a mystery! I've known some pretty freaky women.

The cross section of freaky women who are also into non-freaky slinging is going to be pretty small, I’d imagine.

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Jan 13^th, 2021 at 9:32am:

We may not be done with politics, but I am DEFINITELY done with whatever Morphy and vet are talking about!

Neither of us watch that but it is funny. And I doubt modern day women wouldn't think it's funny too. But I suppose it depends on the person.

ANYHOW!!!! Back to politics because WTF is going on right now. I just skimmed a New York Times article that must be the craziest thing I've read in a long time. This is all a dream. I'm going to wake up any moment now.

https://news.yahoo.com/pence-reached-limit-trump-wasnt-130817179.html

How did we get here?

Just a recap but the details are crazy to me.

I think this is a learning experience for us all. If you want someone to remain your friend, don't ask them to break the law for you, incite a rally into a riot when they don't break the law for you and then send the riot over to you with a gallows chanting for your execution.

Makes me look back on some of my broken friendships and wish I had known this before...

Kick wrote on Jan 14^th, 2021 at 12:59am:

I think this is a learning experience for us all. If you want someone to remain your friend, don't ask them to break the law for you, incite a rally into a riot when they don't break the law for you and then send the riot over to you with a gallows chanting for your execution. Makes me look back on some of my broken friendships and wish I had known this before...

Don't blame yourself Kick I think we've all done that at least once in our past.

Morphy wrote on Jan 14^th, 2021 at 6:04am:

Kick wrote on Jan 14th, 2021 at 12:59am: I think this is a learning experience for us all. If you want someone to remain your friend, don't ask them to break the law for you, incite a rally into a riot when they don't break the law for you and then send the riot over to you with a gallows chanting for your execution. Makes me look back on some of my broken friendships and wish I had known this before... Don't blame yourself Kick I think we've all done that at least once in our past.

On a completely unrelated note... Morphy and Kick, I'm trying to move some old junk out of my garage.  Do you mind if I have some packages delivered to your houses and then send some anonymous people in unmarked SUVs to pick the stuff up in a few days? One of the packages may have some white powder leaking out of it. Please don't lick it.  The other one may emit a ticking sound, but it's just my collection of metronomes, I promise. If you don't say yes, you can't be my friends anymore, but no pressure.

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Jan 14^th, 2021 at 10:32am:

Morphy wrote on Jan 14th, 2021 at 6:04am: Kick wrote on Jan 14th, 2021 at 12:59am: I think this is a learning experience for us all. If you want someone to remain your friend, don't ask them to break the law for you, incite a rally into a riot when they don't break the law for you and then send the riot over to you with a gallows chanting for your execution. Makes me look back on some of my broken friendships and wish I had known this before... Don't blame yourself Kick I think we've all done that at least once in our past. On a completely unrelated note... Morphy and Kick, I'm trying to move some old junk out of my garage.  Do you mind if I have some packages delivered to your houses and then send some anonymous people in unmarked SUVs to pick the stuff up in a few days? One of the packages may have some white powder leaking out of it. Please don't lick it.  The other one may emit a ticking sound, but it's just my collection of metronomes, I promise. If you don't say yes, you can't be my friends anymore, but no pressure.

Not going to lie that was pretty funny lol.

This lecture is from about 35 years old folks! Look at how different things are now from then...and some things never change. Pretty fascinating either way:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9TviIuXPSE

An eye opening whistle blower. One of many. Every American should watch that video. The most important part being what it would take to stop inevitable collapse. Chilling stuff.

I've heard it said that while we were trying to win the Cold War militarily Russia was trying to win a culture war over here in the States. It's a fascinating peek into asymmetric warfare. Doesn't surprise me that the Russians seem to have won this fight. They are brilliant strategists.

I've got to say, seeing the QAnon followers fall apart is actually pretty funny.

Kick wrote on Jan 21^st, 2021 at 8:06am:

I've got to say, seeing the QAnon followers fall apart is actually pretty funny.

Don’t you get it Kick? This is all part of the 5-D chess plan to make the world think that Biden is the president when the reality is that Biden is still in his basement and Trump is pretending to be in Florida. The system is all run by the Illuminati anyway, and we also all know that the George Bush reptilian faction has been running a shadow government from a secret Coast Guard base in Nebraska since 1987.  Qanon is just a psyop to distract you from the truth.

https://bit.ly/2Y3HSK0
(Original link)
https://babylonbee.com/news/republican-starting-to-think-trump-might-not-pull-off-a-last-minute-3d-chess-move

Even for myself who enjoys the occasional conspiracy QAnon is just silly. If we are going to go with silly I much prefer Reptoids or potentially the occasional mandroid.

What's crazy is that Biden has been inaugurated and people are STILL saying that he's not going to be the president.  Apparently the inauguration, the executive orders he's making, and all of the cabinet members being approved by congress are just an elaborate ruse.  It's all smoke and mirrors!  The military is going to arrest Biden any day now and restore Trump back to the oval office because Trump signed the insurrection act... or something. 
I've seen no evidence suggesting this is a possibility, but I guess when people don't trust the media and are trying to make sense of the world in the absence of facts, these stories help them feel like there is some sort of order to the world?  Maybe?  I don't really know what motivates this stuff, but I'm pretty sure people believe it because they want to believe it... not because they have examined a body of evidence for and against the idea and arrived at the most plausible and logical conclusion.

I had no idea it went that deep. Part of me thinks no one really believes this nonsense. And I want to laugh but unfortunately I know there are people who genuinely believe this garbage.  I look forward to the future melodrama. I can't wait to see how things play out.

well we had 4 years of
"resist"
"Not my president"
"The russians did it so he's not REALLY the president"
"the impeachment will remove him any day"

It was concerning then, it's concerning now.

Whether an actual Chinese curse or not... we do indeed live in interesting times.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_you_live_in_interesting_times

Ok, I thought we were moving on, but at this point I think maybe the space time continuum has split and we’re all just living in two simultaneous realities. I have no idea what to do with stuff like this where someone is willing to bet their reputation and even their business on something like this... if he wasn’t absolutely convinced that he was right, I don’t think he would do it:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VKaSX9SKR1A&feature=youtu.be

@ NooneOfConsequence

lol what was this about ? video's been removed

Yeah... it was taken down while I was halfway through watching it.  It was Mike Lindell claiming that he had absolute proof of a stolen election. If this was just gaslighting, I would think it would have stopped after Biden was inaugurated.  It just seems there’s two different realities right now.

This is my opinion. Take it as such, not any sort of attack on your beliefs, opinions, personality.

My whole issue with this is D.T. started making claims that the election was stolen WHILE votes were still coming in. He was the one driving this narrative. However, the fact that he had no way of knowing what would happen and he started calling foul immediately when he thought he was losing, that negates any claim completely. No one would be questioning anything if he hadn't started whining. Par for the course with the man though. His narcissism knows no bounds.  Georgia recounted votes 3 times. 3 times! and the final result didn't change. If it was some massive conspiracy, they might do one recount to satisfy the dissenters and then call it. 3 times is grasping at straws to try and change the result, but it didn't.  All these people that aren't the officials running the election claiming statistics about the election are very suspicious to me, I don't trust them. 

Also, logic doesn't always reign. Just because someone is willing to do something that bets their reputation doesn't make it true. Example: Mass suicides in cults. People literally bet their lives on something they believe in.  Doesn't make it true. (Of course, it doesn't necessarily make it false either, obviously no living person truly knows what happens when we die).

My 2 cents.

Are we starting up this thread again? Looks like someone wants to start problems.

As an outsider looking in, it really seems like American society is split on what is actually reality. There are a significant number of people that seem to truly believe that Trump is the second coming of Christ. This would be the same person that has been married multiple times, paid off a pornstar and is a known scam artist. Who needs "Love thy neighbour" when you can have "Build that wall!" right? What happened with that wall by the way? I guess, to be fair, he did only have 4 years to get it built...

But anyway, back to the point, there are currently members of Congress that blamed Jewish space lasers for forest fires. How is a democracy supposed to work when reality can't be agreed upon? I have no idea. Good luck you guys. I really think you Yanks will need it.

I am not a Trump lover, i am a fan.i am not saying he is perfect, damm.  but all i ever see, you are attacking him. If you are an outsider please look at the whole picture.  I have repeated myself mutiple times here.  Our founding fathers did NOT want career politicans.  Joe Biden has been in for 47years, and has done nothing. He HAS undiagnosed Demintia, which is surprising that you didnt pick up on it since you work in health care.  Look at the crime bill he signed back in 1994. It was racist, and put more minorities in jail. Please read up on USA history. Republicans were not the racist.  Southern Democrats OWNED slaves. Abe Lincoln was a Republican who freed the slaves.  Biden's wife WAS married to another man and cheated on him. Biden likes to sniff women. I can write tons of stuff about him as well. Its been proven that since he came into office, that most of his bills he signed or pushing through to Congress. Do not have many or any Republicans signing on. He LIED that he wanted to 'cross the aisle'. Its ridiculous.


We need term limits on ALL politicians.

Also we NEED politicians to have a set minimum wage pay. Not starting out at $170,000. Once elected.

They also DONT need million $ houses. They NEED to be put into a apartment complex.

Once Democrats,  and the left stop taking, or asking for handouts we can move on.

We do disagree on reality but it is not that simple as "trumptards" and "objective reality".

We're split 50-50, smart people and respectable positions on both sides. If, from your reading in the media and news, you can't articulate a sane conservative/rightwing argument, that's a problem. Probably the key one that Trump leveraged to gain the support of the right wing as a whole. Half of our political spectrum does not feel represented in the "credible media" because they are not. I read BBC and NPR, and I can give you what the talking points and fallback points on the left will be for a specific issue from that coverage. I cannot from that same coverage tell you what the other half of America will argue.

This failing of the media in their responsibility to take the best arguments on both sides and show them to their readers/watchers, I would argue, is directly responsible for Trump. Because they are unfair they can be dismissed by half of Americans. Not just the dumb ones they quote. Smart people who aren't dumb enough to talk to hostile people with complete editing power.

Then it gets worse as legitimacy itself was assaulted, yes by Trump but for 4 years before that. This was not the first time angry protestors were in secure areas of the capitol. It was not the first time explosives were prepped (and used) by a mob of angry political activists. From the coverage you would be forgiven for thinking it was and that just makes the issue all the worse.

Legitimacy is in tatters. And if we cannot agree on reality, we cannot agree on a process, and then to top it off both sides say feelings trump process and facts? Well then we leave demagoguery for force. And the young fools on both sides who think it will be a cakewalk actively yell for it. With no idea what they are summoning.

I'm not american but seen from abroad, you are completely crazy. Sorry to say that.
With globalization, international relations have evolved significantly. Often with conptempt for the citizens. But stop believing that you are the center of the world. But stop delirious between you.
Open your eyes.
;D Make America intelligent again. ;D
Sorry !

TOMBELAINE wrote on Feb 6^th, 2021 at 2:57am:

I'm not american but seen from abroad, you are completely crazy. Sorry to say that. With globalization, international relations have evolved significantly. Often with conptempt for the citizens. But stop believing that you are the center of the world. But stop delirious between you. Open your eyes. ;D Make America intelligent again. ;D Sorry !

I understand why you have that perception but you must understand many of us dont believe that. We are not happy with the foreign wars of aggression, the constant mettling in other countries affairs and the attitude of superiority that our government often exhibits. The thing I truly love about this country is the "idea" of unalienable rights. We havent lived up to that as well as I would like but the idea is great. 

Please dont assume that every American looks down on other countries like we are better. Some of us feel helpless to stop our government from acting the way it does.

When the government takes better care of illegal immigrants then its own citizens. Thats a problem. Refer back to my previous post. USA would be a better country if the Constitution wasnt getting twisted for a Democrats own sick pleasure. On a different note, France has had its fair share of problems within itself.

Having pride for Ones country diesnt make you crazy. Its patriotic. I joined the military because i love this country. Some of our laws, other countries have taken and made into thier own in different vacancies

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

vetryan15 wrote on Feb 6^th, 2021 at 6:43am:

When the government takes better care of illegal immigrants then its own citizens. Thats a problem. Refer back to my previous post. USA would be a better country if the Constitution wasnt getting twisted for a Democrats own sick pleasure. On a different note, France has had its fair share of problems within itself. Having pride for Ones country diesnt make you crazy. Its patriotic. I joined the military because i love this country. Some of our laws, other countries have taken and made into thier own in different vacancies

Vet I absolutely love my country and constitution. I just dont care for the government. I shouldve been more clear.

Morphy. I am the same way. That wasnt towards you. I was agreeing with you. I absolutely love this country,  but the government has got to change. My issue is that people who dont know what they are talking about, in regards to politics of another country, who do not live here. Which this thread as you started it, was in regards to forum members home country. All i seen is everyone talking about the US. Just cause we dont like the government,  doesnt make us bad. Thats why we have the constitution,  to avoid stuff like the current environment going right now. As BIDEN is a POS, 47 years in politics. His home state  Delaware  has and still is a shithole. He cant even fix it. He has already been caught lying since day 1. Thats the pther problem,  due to elites who run it in the shadows.




Patriot:
.
a person who vigorously supports their country and is prepared to defend it against enemies or detractors.

Morphy wrote on Feb 6^th, 2021 at 8:48am:

I just dont care for the government.

can you live without a government?

Sarosh wrote on Feb 6^th, 2021 at 10:44am:

Morphy wrote on Feb 6th, 2021 at 8:48am: I just dont care for the government. can you live without a government?

No but I can live without a corrupt one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07w9K2XR3f0
Although I disagree with a lot of his humorous opinions. I realized that this one is very true "this is the best we can do folks".

EU is as split as the US. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36130006
we have eu citizens who want to handle immigration with bullets and walls so I'm saddened to say that the chimps we have in our governments are there because the majority wants them.


Morphy wrote on Feb 6^th, 2021 at 11:36am:

No but I can live without a corrupt one.

just checking :P

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DytBlcScGNk

I find this video quite interesting from Lindybeige, it's titled 'why do we go to war', however there is a lot of interesting stuff at the end about what goes into making a country, state, tribe stick together.

Anyway. For me I have issues with both sides of the spectrum. I'm nominally on the left, but I despise some elements of the left. As with the right.
However, I gotta say, on the way out Trump crossed a red line. He spurred on an assault on the democratic process to remove him. I always hated the guy but I didn't accept he was as dangerous as many people were saying. I was wrong in this, he's authoritarian and I don't believe the situation in the US has been as perilous as this handover for a long time.

I see very few people who are supportive of Trump acknowledging this, many choose to believe the election was stolen instead and thus all this anti democratic action is completely justified, yet lawsuit after lawsuit fails miserably, they were always going to because simply- it wasn't stolen. It was obvious to anybody who has had any exposure to Trump at all that he would lie and claim the election was stolen had he lost. There is no timeline where Trump lost and graciously accepted defeat, none. So why believe so uncritically that he is telling the truth? Why is it so hard to believe that this election was just as fair as the last one, the one before that, and before that etc?

I also see this equivocating about Biden/all democrats whatever. Politicians are not all evil and completely corrupt (certainly not all one side and the other side are angels). Yes, there are surely many self serving people in politics (as with many other areas), maybe they even achieve good things despite that- isn't that the purpose of institutions and structures of law etc? To get good outcomes with imperfect people?
I can't understand people hitting Biden etc as a liar and more or less giving a free pass to Trump. If you care about lying at all, Trump should be your least favourite person in the world. Politicians lie, but Trump lies perhaps more than any other person in public life. He lies so much that any concept of accountability for what he says has completely gone. At least when regular politicians lie there is a penalty if they are caught out.

Well, that's my rant over.

ALL POLITICIANS LIE.  The left is/are a bunch of hypocrites.  I said it. If i get banned.  Oh well.

I am not saying Trump is perfect. Far from it. Biden has been getting free passes. Due to his undiagnosed DEMENTIA.  Even his boss OBAMA said dont underestimate Joe's ability to f@#$ up. He wanted unity, where is it? Hasnt done anything. He has written the most executive orders in the history of the US. Trump is/ was the lesser of two evils.

It was PROVEN he didnt inciite the riots. It was gonna happen anyway regardless.

My issue with saying Trump's behavior is past some sort of bright line is that we already had political mobs "storming the capitol" and that wasn't condemned. We had mobs rioting for months, encouraged by official statements from left wing politicians, and that was "mostly peaceful". And we had 4 years of "resist" and impeachment efforts, illegal state actions (no California can't enter international organizations), and spurious lawsuits from left wing Attorney Generals that even RBG said were legally wrong.

Is it wrong/bad/harmful to refuse to concede? Sure. But it's part of a much bigger spiral that has been ongoing. Riots hours from my sleeping children over what was a legally justified shooting of a criminal I file as worse. The facts didn't matter only the feelings of the mob.

perpetualstudent wrote on Feb 6^th, 2021 at 3:40pm:

The facts didn't matter only the feelings of the mob.

This is indeed a problem. But I'd say the biggest problem is that the right feels like the left is the mob that doesn't believe in facts and the left thinks the right is the mob that doesn't believe in facts.  There seem to be two mobs depending on perspective.  It would be nice if we could agree on what the facts are.

Even if we agreed on facts nothing necessarily follows from that. Processes are more important.

When we have no process that we can trust we are in trouble. Trump's criticism of an unfair election was bigger but it was in the same vein as the previous election criticisms: unfair system, hacked by the Russians, and thus illegitimate.

The importance of legitimacy, and each side convincing their side to play by the rules, is hard to overstate. But both sides have been playing on the edges whenever they think they can get away wtih it. And as you rightly point out, we mainly see "their" transgressions. There's a very clear escalation in the fight between the tribes. I wish I saw an off ramp.

I'm with you on that. Having a lack of faith in the process is a big problem. Agreed, whether it was the 2016 or 2020 election, both sides had doubts in how the outcome was arrived at. At least some there is some common ground there that a solution could be worked towards.

IronGoober wrote on Feb 6^th, 2021 at 3:45pm:

perpetualstudent wrote on Feb 6th, 2021 at 3:40pm: The facts didn't matter only the feelings of the mob. This is indeed a problem. But I'd say the biggest problem is that the right feels like the left is the mob that doesn't believe in facts and the left thinks the right is the mob that doesn't believe in facts.  There seem to be two mobs depending on perspective.  It would be nice if we could agree on what the facts are.

Common facts come more easily from common values. I love my country. It’s not perfect, but it’s my country. I couldn’t create a better system than what our founders did. I’m not that smart.  If you look at the official platform for the Democratic Party, the left appears to hate this country and believes it needs to be completely torn down and reimagined. If you want to stick to the original design, you are labeled a racist and an extremist. If we can’t come together on something as simple as loving the country we live in... how do we find middle ground on anything else?  What’s the compromise when one side insists on destroying a system and the other side wants to preserve it? Democrats and Republicans used to actually agree on a lot more than we do now, and Democrats of 30 years ago would be labeled as dangerous, extreme right-wingers today simply for being patriotic. Patriotism on the left was replaced with reveling in the self flagellation of white privilege... which they love to complain about and virtue signal over but somehow the left never seems to offer any solutions that aren’t even worse than the problem...

On the other side, climate change is an existential threat, and those who are trying to preserve the American system of the past are perpetuating a system that will doom the entire world if drastic action isn’t taken. Destroying the old system is necessary for survival. Again, where is the compromise?

Without some common set of values for us to agree on... how do we remain one nation?  It’s an open question that I don’t know how to answer., and I find that both sad and terrifying... more for my children than myself.

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Feb 6^th, 2021 at 4:17pm:

If you look at the official platform for the Democratic Party, the left appears to hate this country and believes it needs to be completely torn down and reimagined.

Hate? No. Think there is room for improvement? Hell yes. I'm going to tackle a single theme here, though I'm sure there is more depth to your statement than I'm going to address. I'm going to assume that you are referring to the general sense that Democrats feel the need to regulate much more than Republicans (again trying to encompass a lot of scope here in a single statement) and that it is infringing upon freedom. But my argument about freedom is that the vast freedom(s) that we enjoy in the US are only useful if people use that freedom to improve the condition of not only themselves, but the people around them. Often, that is not the case.  Rich getting richer (can't say that this isn't happening to me, I've had zero financial trouble during COVID, and Trump's tax cuts reduced my taxes, despite the fact that I'm willing and wishing to pay more taxes), racism, ethnic and economic inequalities, unequal access to healthcare, etc.  These are things that could be improved, but are often taken advantage of in the name of "freedom".  That is my sense of being a Democrat. I do love my country. But, I don't think that we are the be-all end-all.

I also don't think that the founding father's or the constitution are infallible. They were men, like you or me. Treating the constitution as essentially the word of God (I know this is an exaggeration, I'm not accusing anyone of truly thinking this, I'm just venting frustration about this argument) is a dangerous thing. That is why there are amendments to the US constitution and a supreme court. To evolve our understanding, improve our country and not be stuck in the past.

... I think I'll end here before I dig myself too deep. I'll probably look back at this post later and think of all the ways I could have worded things better or other things I should have said. But, I have to say, the statement that Democrats "hate this country" really irks me.

Truth is nobody wants to mess too much with constitutional amendments because neither side can muster enough power. I would much prefer that sort of battle to take place, hell we banned alcohol via that process (it was a dismal failure but at least it was legitimate).

I do think you're a little off base Iron. I don't see an argument about regulation coming from the left. I see arguments about "systemic" things and "fundamental re-imaginings". And I hear plenty of chatter about anything less being just a tool of distraction.

We as a nation are not discussing proposals. What I am getting from the left is a demand to accede to a moral claim. Not "if we implement this policy we can make life better" but "Unless we institute system wide reform you are supporting evil". That's how NOOC can get to "democrats hate America". It's from their own propoganda.

@IG, you’re right. It’s too harsh to say half the country hates the country. The rhetoric is not accurate for the sentiment I am trying to express, so I take it back. There does seem to be a drive to fundamentally change the systems of this country though even if it isn’t out of “hatred” per se.  That is what seems to be irreconcilable. We can’t even agree on “one nation under God” anymore and the two sides are drifting further apart every day.

I also understand that the Democratic platform doesn’t necessarily reflect the beliefs of individual Democrats...  just like the Republican platform doesn’t reflect all Republicans. I honestly think that a lot of people who vote Democrat would be shocked by some of the things in the Democratic platform though if they read it.

Just look at all the pipeline unions who now regret voting for Biden.

perpetualstudent wrote on Feb 6^th, 2021 at 8:03pm:

I do think you're a little off base Iron. I don't see an argument about regulation coming from the left. I see arguments about "systemic" things and "fundamental re-imaginings". And I hear plenty of chatter about anything less being just a tool of distraction.

Perhaps you are correct. These are my own thoughts, which certainly do not necessarily reflect the views of the whole of the Democratic party. But as far as they hate America... I'd say no.


NooneOfConsequence wrote on Feb 6^th, 2021 at 9:35pm:

I also understand that the Democratic platform doesn’t necessarily reflect the beliefs of individual Democrats...  just like the Republican platform doesn’t reflect all Republicans. I honestly think that a lot of people who vote Democrat would be shocked by some of the things in the Democratic platform though if they read it.

True.  As for the last bit. I could only speak for myself. I suppose I should just put that disclaimer in front of political statements. :)

BTW, I found the video that YouTube took down while I was watching it... it’s interesting. Don’t get me wrong... Biden is the president. I am not suggesting otherwise by posting a video about election fraud, but this video shouldn’t be suppressed, and I think it’s worth discussing how absolutely strange this last election really was. People should be free to hear all sides of an issue and make their own decisions. I’d probably get banned for saying such things if this was Twitter :)

https://lbry.tv/@PastorShadilay:a/AbsoluteProof:9

I think I can finally give a definitive answer to the original question. I am done with politics.

Morphy wrote on Feb 7^th, 2021 at 12:28am:

I think I can finally give a definitive answer to the original question. I am done with politics.

We’ve heard that before Morphy. It can actually be fun if people don’t take it too personally... I mean AFTER you come to grips with the fact that Republicans are greedy racist Nazis who want to destroy the planet and Democrats are weak-minded angry fascists who are still living in their parents basement and want to mooch off of society.  After you accept that, it’s easy to have a civil discussion ;D

What if I dont want to? What if my heart is simply set on trolling? Is that an option?

Morphy wrote on Feb 7^th, 2021 at 9:59am:

What if I dont want to? What if my heart is simply set on trolling? Is that an option?

You don’t need my permission.  Can I join you?

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Feb 7^th, 2021 at 10:33am:

Morphy wrote on Feb 7th, 2021 at 9:59am: What if I dont want to? What if my heart is simply set on trolling? Is that an option? You don’t need my permission.  Can I join you?

I thought you already had...  ;)

I might be trolling just a little.  Some parents don’t own basements ;D

I have a lot of respect for the USA. Until today, the USA is a great democracy.
Morphy, I'm agree with you ; a democracy is based on values.
Vetrian15, I'm agree with you ; it's up to you to fix your problems.

Or, corrupt politicians tampered with elections, and in this case, those climbered to the Capitole are legitimate.
Or, a candidate fomented a riot.
Or, a little of both.

It will be paintful but you will have to make the light, because your democracy has been desecrated.

But, for you and for the world, The USA must reaffirm that you are still a great democracy. Only justice, based on the law and the founding principles, can restore the truth and condemn the guilties.

You are not the center of the world but like all democracies of the world, you have to protect democratic values.
We do not tamper with democratic values. We shout them out loud.
Good luck and a lot of strength for you for the future.

TOMBELAINE wrote on Feb 8^th, 2021 at 3:06am:

I have a lot of respect for the USA. Until today, the USA is a great democracy. Morphy, I'm agree with you ; a democracy is based on values. Vetrian15, I'm agree with you ; it's up to you to fix your problems. Or, corrupt politicians tampered with elections, and in this case, those climbered to the Capitole are legitimate. Or, a candidate fomented a riot. Or, a little of both. It will be paintful but you will have to make the light, because your democracy has been desecrated. But, for you and for the world, The USA must reaffirm that you are still a great democracy. Only justice, based on the law and the founding principles, can restore the truth and condemn the guilties. You are not the center of the world but like all democracies of the world, you have to protect democratic values. We do not tamper with democratic values. We shout them out loud. Good luck and a lot of strength for you for the future.

Agreed with everything you said. Except you have more hope than I do for this country. We are a modern day equivalent to ancient Rome. We have made tons of enemies and at the point that America's economy collapses or there is some sort of attack initiated on us Im positive other countries will pile on as well.

That sounds really bad to say. But I have hope for the future, maybe just not for the government or America in general.

It isn't the USA that has made enemies. It is the perpetual struggle of a great powers to base their leadership. (USA, Chinese and Russia)