I have been working on charts that grades ranged weapons in different categories the idea being that it would help one decide on a weapon to wield in case of complete societal collapse, mainly for hunting and defence. 

Now there are a couple of things for you to consider:
Firsty, I am not a survivalist and I don't know how relevant the current grades are for a survivalist situation (I will gladly take advice, more on that later). I already now have ideas on how the charts should be changed.

Secondly, this is the first version of these charts that I am releasing and they are still rife with lots of errors, both grammatical, graphical and so on.

Thirdly, I will add other entries if you can think of any (already considering the shotgun sling and whether the slingbow should be separate from the slingshot).

And finally, only having (at least some) experience with slings, bolas, boomerangs, slingshots and bows I can already feel that many gradings I have given so far are wrong (again, I will listen to experts).



The weapon ratings goes from 1 to 10 and are based on:
[list bull-blackball]

Simplicity: how easily can you make this?

Durability: how easily does this break and how much care does it need to ensure its functionality?

Environment: does the surrounding environment affect its effectiveness? Like using it in a dense wood, after having been made wet wading through a river or during strong wind.

Suppleness: is it easy to transport?

Practice: how easily does one become able to effectively wield this weapon?

Ammunition  specialization: does one need to craft the ammunition used itself or can you pick up any rock?

Ammunition manufacturing: how easily does one craft the ammunition?

Info:
Not a grading itself. Contains various information like history, usage, construction, etc.




The info point definitely should be worked on. I am thinking of splitting it into history, construction (general design of the weapon), operation (how to use it) and maybe other for whatever info doesn't fit into the other categories.
Also, just got the idea of a "possibility" rating: what range of different animals can you hunt? Like, both rabbits and elephants, or only dog sized animals?



I will listen to whatever advice or changes you think should be made to the current state of the charts.
Should other grades be added or some removed?
Should any existing grades on a specific weapon be altered?
Ideas on how the charts itself should look (maybe a bar chart instead of numbers?)
Should the very structure and idea of the charts be changed?
Anything else.



Thanks for reading.

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Making a blow gun is actually pretty difficult, making a good one with matching ammunition is hard.  In the picture, I believe that is a South American tribesman using a hardwood blow gun, those are extremely difficult to make. 

Making one out of bamboo or river cane requires straightening them with heat and knocking out the partitions at the nodes, then sanding those partitions smooth.

And then, you'll have to make the darts, which requires making sting to hold your base or collecting something to act as the fletch/plug.  And they don't do much damage, think stepping on a nail, hurts but usually isn't incapacitating unless a vital area is hit, such as an eye. 

That was why most natives that used them use some form of poison on the dart.  Contrary to Hollyweird, those poisons don't usually act instantly.  And you'll have to know how to make them.

You left out a simple digging stick, it's about a meter long, maybe a little longer, about as thick as your wrist with a fire hardened pointed end and a spatulate end.  use as a pick, a shovel or as a club or short spear.   

And throwing sticks, they look like a stylized caveman's club, with one end larger than the other, tapering down to an end about twice the thickness of your thumb.  They vary in length but about the length of elbow to finger tip is a good length.  The Choctaws use them today for rabbit hunting and they also make a good club.   They are thrown side arm so the spin on the long axis to increase the chances of a hit.  An Apache Throwing Star is a variation.   

As far as firearms, look into early matchlocks from the late 15th century through the mid 16th.  Those, and the powder, can be made from stuff found in a hardware/garden store.  Look on YouTube for some of the primitive firearms made in various parts of the world.  The people there use them instead of modern firearms because they can build them themselves, along with the ammunition.  Think strike anywhere matches for powder.   

Another thing you may want to consider are weapons made in prisons.  Shanks and zip guns.  Those latter usually require modern ammunition, but not all.   

Last, look at axes, hatchets and machetes.  A simple machete can be made from a lawn mower blade and some tape.  Heat, hammer flat, wrap some duct tape around one end and sharpen the other.  You can use a hack saw and cut a triangular piece of the same blade, hammer the pointy end into a stick and you have a simple hatchet.  Fire axes are in a lot of buildings at fire stations. 

Hope those ideas help.

I dont understand environment.
the slingshot is sensitive to weather it can break down very fast with high humidity and hot weather. firearms dont have such problems yet they scored less.

I would split environment in weather and surroundings. surroundings being field/ forest/ siege etc. slings cannot be used in a siege as well as straight aiming weapons that can fire through tiny holes in walls.

early firearms might be simpler to make than a slingshot from raw materials.
other suggestions:
add stealth factor, blowgun is the best, firearm the worst.
add effective range, slings would be 80m or less since we havent seen anyone consistent at long ranges and in survival situation there are no big formations to shoot at.
add stopping power very important factor
add rate of fire
also intimidation could be very important in survival. a boomerang and a blowgun are not as intimidating as a firearm... I would try to make allies people carrying firearms not enemies...

Hunting and self protection/warfare are extremely different.
I am a hunter and not a soldier so my experience is only valid with hunting.
Depending on what other tools you have will determine how effective each weapon is, a slingshot is a great small game hunting tool but once it fails or you lose all your bbs it gets much worse, and a gun and is basically a club without bullets. Arrows can be crafted in nature but require the right materials, basic tools and an amount of knowledge. When it comes to hunting there’s so many different environments where there are advantages and disadvantages, then there’s the actual game your hunting, good luck killing a bison with a slingshot, so it’s very hard to grade these weapons without exact scenarios.

The greatest weapon of all is the mind

how is maing a kestro dart a 4 ?
Sure you can use whitled stick with some feathers attached using tree gum.
But almost all those that we know of in history had forged metal heads. - which is definitely a 1 on the difficulty scale.

Likewie - slingshot ammo - is usually ballbearings. Finding a rock that flies as straight and true as a ball bearing - is pretty tricky. You can make clay balls - but only in areas where you have good clay.

As far as firearms having a durability of 10.
Hmm, that depends on how well they are made, looked after and used.

Definitely NOT a 10.

one thing you have ignored are air guns.

About 80% of the vermin control and small animal hunting done in the uk is done with airguns.

In a survival situation in the uk, where the bulk of your food will be from small game: rats, rabbits, pigeons, water fowl - the most likely weapon will be an airgun.
The ammo is fairly easy to make - once you've worked out how to make a mould for the pellets.

They require almost no maintenance. I;ve had my weirauch .22 hw 97 for around 25 years. It's all original, never had any kind of maintenance done to it, had thousands of shot through it and still shoots at the legal limit for an unlicenced airgun - the same power it had when it left the factory.

It'll take a rabbit down at 50 yards, with little effort.

Yes there are hard to manufacture - but once made are probably one of the best post apocalypes survival weapons you can get.   

It's the sort of thing that would become a treasured family heirloom - handed down from one generation to the next, along with the pelly moulds and a couple diamond files to fine tune the pellets.

Another weapon is a speargun or rubber powered handspear, I live close to the coast and it is probably the easiest way to catch a feed, especially if the fishing regulations were void. Much more likely than a fishing line, especially if your willing to eat average tasting fish. Also you could use it as a arrow launcher on land. But again the scenario makes the game

I think this is one of those things were there are so many factors it becomes an impossible task. I mean what if, as this apocalyptic scenario that forces me into survival occurs, I break my arm? Suddenly that throws a wrench in making and using most of these weapons. What if the scenario that destroys society is the rising up out of the deep of a Cthulhu-esque, Lovecraftian otherworldly monster beyond the comprehension of man and I have to defend myself from it's blasphemous, betentacled offspring? I do't think it's possible to compare these without first having a very specific scenario first which then doesn't really tell you much in the long run anyway.

I mean, comparing these weapons is all well and good but in an actual scenario, you could have an absolutely perfectly made. balanced bow with a quiver full of perfectly made arrows, but if the person that has this bow and those arrows has no fingers then what does it matter what the weapon is like?

you can shoot a bow without fingers. :-)

True and if you're using your teeth then you won't need to worry about flossing.

Hi everyone.

For starters, thank you for all the replies and well considered comments. After reading your replies I have gained a better understanding of what I wanted to convey with this concept and much of your critique has revealed flaws that need fixing and given me new ideas that should be implemented.

The main points to address are:
The concept itself: what are these charts trying to convey?
Basically it will try and recommend weapons to construct and wield in a survivalist situation. To put it more accurately
[list bull-redsq]

The setting:
What kind of survivalist setting are these charts preparing one for?

The purpose:
In extension of the above point are the weapons going to be judged more on hunting game or defending oneself against other humans, or both, and to what extend?

The content:
What kind of weapons will be rated?


Then there is the design of the grading system itself (wont touch the individual given grades yet, but I will admit that many of them are indeed flawed). 
And then the new weapons to graded in accordance with the approved content.


I wont reply directly to all of your critique but I will try and address it in some way or another.
Also, please critique my critique, and critique each other. I definitely think of this as something of a community project if anyone are in on it and I am open to changing the concept.




First of all, about the setting that these charts attempt to address.


Bill Skinner wrote on Oct 25^th, 2020 at 10:17am:

As far as firearms, look into early matchlocks from the late 15th century through the mid 16th.  Those, and the powder, can be made from stuff found in a hardware/garden store.

My idea when I defined the setting as a post-societal collapse was basically something along the lines of you ending up living in the wild nature with nothing but some clothes and a knife (or something close to that). And for that reason I definitely think that anything that utilizes chemicals found in any kind of store should be defined as advanced.
And to be fair this might not be accurate at all. In an accurate post-ragnarok setting there would be old broken stores littered throughout the world and it might very well be feasible to pick up some chemicals here and there. However these supplies would eventually dry up and so home made firearms would be extremely limited. There is also the issue of the existence of metal which undoubtedly would be in great supply after such an event but again I think it funnier to imagine a setting with no such either.
Perhaps it is better to imagine getting transported back to the early Pleistocene with limited supplies, maybe only a knife or something (this is the forum of stone age ballistics after all, right?) 

Again, let me hear what you think.



Rating the weapons:


Mersa wrote on Oct 25^th, 2020 at 7:14pm:

Hunting and self protection/warfare are extremely different.

Now, I said in my post that I imagined the weapons being judged on their capabilities for both hunting AND self defence. However, my main focus was definitely hunting. But again, the ratings should be based of a scenario of societal collapse or the like so it depends on whether hunting game or defending yourself against other people is realistically the more important issue.


And then there is the issue of what kind of weapons should be rated.
In extension of the above point my intention always was and still is that only weapons that are ranged and usable in hunting to at least some extend should be included. If we begin describing short range weapons like home-made knives and digging sticks we might as well describe snares and fall pits, and then this project would develop into a general survival guide complete with how to start a fire. 



Now, about the grading system.


Sarosh wrote on Oct 25^th, 2020 at 5:23pm:

add stealth factor add effective range add rate of fire also intimidation

All of these sound good.


Sarosh wrote on Oct 25^th, 2020 at 5:23pm:

add stopping power

This one I disagree with. Stopping power is mostly based of humans and differs from target to target. A rabbit requires stopping power different from a deer. I think the "possibility" rating I mentioned makes more sense as it simply measures what range of targets the weapon has stopping power to bring down.


Sarosh wrote on Oct 25^th, 2020 at 5:23pm:

I would split environment in weather and surroundings.

I like this idea as well.

Thought of adding a little comment under each rating for all the weapons that in short will explain the details as to why this rating was given.



New weapons to be graded:
[list bull-blackball]

air gun

spear gun

throwing stick (I can't find any precise information on this thing though)




Other things:


Mersa wrote on Oct 25^th, 2020 at 7:14pm:

Depending on what other tools you have will determine how effective each weapon is

Mersa wrote on Oct 25^th, 2020 at 7:14pm:

Arrows can be crafted in nature but require the right materials, basic tools and an amount of knowledge.

Many of these weapons could be made with nothing but a knife or only your hands. Ownership of a knife will definitely be assumed as the setting of these charts. But that is what the simplicity and ammunition manufacturing rating is for.


Mersa wrote on Oct 25^th, 2020 at 7:14pm:

When it comes to hunting there’s so many different environments where there are advantages and disadvantages

True, but many weapons are very universal and aren't really affected even by extreme changes to the environment, and when they are its general design remains the same while only small details are adjusted to the local requirements. The spear is used from pole to pole, as is the bow, the bola and the sling.

Slyngorm wrote on Oct 27^th, 2020 at 4:19pm:

it might very well be feasible to pick up some chemicals here and there. However these supplies would eventually dry up and so home made firearms would be extremely limited.

Cody's Lab (https://www.youtube.com/user/theCodyReeder) had made a video on how to make blackpowder from human poop and pee, the video is probably down now... it took a year I think to make some from his waste. Once the production is going I think you could be able to keep with the demand. The more the people and the animals the more you can produce. I see matchlocks making a comeback in such situation.

I was thinking of stopping power more in the sense of warfare . An arrow will kill an animal in minutes you'll track it down and harvest it, but a charging man will do a lot of damage in minutes, add a 2nd man and you are probably dead even if you have the best modern hunting bow. In such case range and rate of fire are not enough to describe potential. But the thing is very difficult to measure and compare even with weapons in the same category e.g. modern bow vs medieval bow , or different cal guns...

Quote:

when front-line reports stated that the .38 caliber revolvers carried by U.S. and British soldiers were incapable of bringing down a charging warrior. Thus, in the early 1900s, the U.S. reverted to the .45 Colt in single action revolvers,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stopping_power

so yes leave it out

interesting animes i've watched that depict survival situations with a fantasy twist are "Dr Stone" and "The Drifters" I liked very much the latter but it's on hiatus 

Here's a link for throwing sticks :
http://revedeboomerang.free.fr/tuning2.pdf

In rebuttal to your thoughts, hunting definitely changes depending on environmental conditions, and because tactics while hunting change due to environment so do the choice of weapons. Not only do the game animals change but also the landscape. This is a major factor and until you’re aware of the situation you’re in it’s hard to predict how a hunting tactic will work. Many people who have not hunted before would get a surprise when trying to hunt the first time. There is definitely a weapon that wins due to range and killing power and that is a gun, no other weapons really compare with these, but the downside is you need bullets and they make a lot of noise.

The nitrates from animal dung.  Sulfur from my water, it comes through chalk and has so much sulfur in it that it smells like rotten eggs.  Charcoal from a fire. 

All are easy to acquire if you know what you're doing. 

Simplest ranged weapons are a rock or a stick.  Pick it up and throw it.  Whittle some to a good weight and length and carry them or pick up a pocket full of rocks. 

As someone who has actually hunted with rocks, they need to be about the size of an egg to actually injure or stun the animal enough to catch it.

Down here, in the Black Belt, people used to make what is called a "Tap Stick", which was a take off of the Native American throwing stick.  Whittle that same stick, except wander the railroad track or a factory and pick up all the large nuts and screw one or two on to the end of your throwing stick.  It adds more weight and makes it more effective at killing small animals.  And could be used as a mace if you need to defend yourself. 

Those were used until well into the late 60's.      

@Mersa but that is a question of the strategy used depending on your local environment, not objective and universal qualities of a type of weapon.

Ok, so manufacturing firearms and ammunition is definitely possible but still EXTREMELY cumbersome.



TOMBELAINE wrote on Oct 28^th, 2020 at 3:25am:

Here's a link for throwing sticks :

Bill Skinner wrote on Oct 28^th, 2020 at 10:05am:

people used to make what is called a "Tap Stick"

From what I can gather a boomerang is just a local variant of a throwing stick?
Or lies the difference in those throwing sticks that are designed to aerodynamically create lift (like a boomerang) and those who don't?

Also, REALLY interesting study TOMBELAINE. I didn't know any bothered to research this stuff or that boomerangs could vary like that in the first place.

His website is : http://revedeboomerang.free.fr/
The text is in french. But it's complete.
Luc Borde is a researcher and a boomerang enthusiast. Modern competitor but also passionate of throwing sticks.

For survivalism, I think Bill Skinner's method is better. Only after,If you like this weapon, you can learn this primitive technology. Just my idea.

To my knowledge, there are roughly two types of throwing sticks that were used. 

Airfoils and non airfoils. 

Non airfoils are basically a stick, they are round in cross section and look similar to a bowling pin, some are more stretched but have that same basic shape.  These were, (are) generally a close range tool, usually used under 30 meters or so.  These were or are used on the edges of fields or brushy area.   

The airfoils are flat or wing shaped, some like the kylie do not return and some, like the boomerang may or may not, depending on how they are shaped.  They have a lot more range, in excess of 100 meters.  And, because the shape produces lift, if they are "tuned" correctly, they will sail at the same height they are thrown at for most of their trajectory instead of dropping.  These were used for hunting birds or waterfowl, they were also used in grass land plains or areas with little vegetation.

Both are thrown sidearm, so they spin on their long axis.   

Needless to say, both require lots and lots of practice.

Bill Skinner wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2020 at 6:30pm:

Airfoils and non airfoils.

They will be separate categories then.
I'll wager the non-airfoil is both simpler and more durable.

For throwing stick in English  :)
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/science/throwing-stick-hunting.html
I think is the oldest throwing stick in the world.
The original text in french with a beautiful drawing to see the scene.
https://www.news.uliege.be/cms/c_11727088/fr/un-baton-de-jet-vieux-de-300-000-ans-documente-l-evolution-de-la-chasse
This stick is probably the easiest to make.

I gave these to a cousin in New Zealand he sent this pic when he varnished them.
Throwing club is partly behind the other.

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If I had a such weapon, I wouldn't want to throw it !
No good for survival   ;D

Here is my new idea for the rating charts.
I tried incorporating all the new ideas into it but I has gotten really bloated. Maybe I should cut down on the text somehow.

Also does anyone know any fitting text editing program to make these charts?

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Now you’ve done it. This is a post that can be debated endlessly, and if I have anything to say about it, it will be.  :D

Here’s the thing, there’s a lot of assumptions that are easy to make where in practice don’t end up being true.

A good example would be where you put ammunition specialization. Sling ammo is actually in many ways a bigger problem than it is for bow making. This is assuming you don’t live in one of those rare areas where perfect ammunition is all over the place ready to be picked up.

Slings are actually just as much if not more prone to inaccuracy when using less than perfect ammo. For all sorts of reasons, not the least of which being you are swinging it around your head at very high speeds so even an error of a tenth of a second can lead to meters off target.

We all know this but often like to tout the slings advantage of cheap ammo. Unfortunately if you’ve ever done a lot of serious target practice on “small” targets you will know without a good backstop and a very clean low cut area it’s very easy to lose any ammo that will actually have a chance of hitting small game size targets consistently. (Read: **perfect ammo**) This is much less true with arrows. So with a bow you have ammo that takes longer to build but lasts much longer and in practice, coming from a guy with a little experience in both those areas, it’s so much easier to maintain your set of perfect arrows than it is to keep track of your perfect glandes. Sad to say, but that’s been my experience. Now assume you are hunting rather than on your fancy sling target range and the odds of maintaining your perfect set of glandes is practically nil.

Let’s take bows for a second. Bows are moisture sponges. This is one thing you don’t see in the YouTube experts videos on using them in real world conditions. A 1% moisture content change in a bows limbs can translate to an astonishing drop in poundage, which leads to over spined arrows, potentially changing the tiller and all sorts of other issues. Bows difficulty of upkeep should be right at 1 imo. Doesn’t take a brain surgeon to figure out how but compared to most other weapons there’s a lot going on that can change. And unfortunately spar urethane is in short supply in the wilds so while grease can be used to add some protection to the wood it’s more like some protection rather than some protection. To be frank, it sucks and will let you down when you need it most.

I am currently compiling notes for a book on primitive weapons that I am planning on writing. I use a triangle system with these three categories: Economy, Ease of Use, Effectiveness.

Economy encapsulates difficulty of making, of maintaining, sourcing materials and so on and so forth.

Ease of Use: is how easy it is to learn, how easy is it to use under adverse conditions such as starvation, heat, cold, humidity, etc,

Effectiveness: is how powerful, how effective (not the same thing), how effective for a given game, environment, season etc.

So far as I can determine there is no such weapon that scores high in all three categories. Usually at best you will get 2 high categories and one so-so.

Case in point: A blow gun is extremely easy to use. It’s quite accurate and doesn’t take too long to learn. It also doesn’t require a lot of strength so the hungry hunter shouldn’t be as affected as say pulling the 60 lb bow you just had to make. But it’s effectiveness is very limited without poison and it’s economy sucks. As Bill said, they are horrible to make a legit one unless you are an absolute expert at it.

Sling:
Economy is so-so to very good depending on the ammo available.
Effectiveness is very high for the game you would be taking with it.
Ease of Use- is a steaming hot pile of week old baby diapers.

Anyways you get the point. Mine is a lazy man’s version. I think I like yours better but however you choose to categorize it, it’s a difficult question that requires answers from people who have spent a lot of time with the weapons in question under difficult circumstances. Fortunately this is probably the best place on the net for such a question so you are a step ahead of the curve.

Well I agree with everything you say. The main point is also what Mersa mentioned: there are countless of tiny details that in some way or another change the effectiveness of the weapon you are constructing and using.

For example, the thing you said that surprised me the most: the sling ammunition rating. 
Picking up viable slinging stones has to me seemed pretty easy but that may be because I live in an area where such stones are readily available. If you live in a river delta rounded stones should be everywhere. If you live in a desert, not so much. If you live in an area with readily available clay? Bingo.

Your point about the easiness of loosing sling ammo during practice really caught me off guard. It is a weird, seemingly insignificant yet despite this meaningful and important detail. You have to practice using any weapon and you can't practice if you loose all your ammo. This, however, could be nullified if you happened to live in an area with a lot of readily available ammunition.
This shows that many of the grades affect each other somehow.

The moist bow?
This point should be covered by the weather AND environment grade. But if a weapons effectiveness is affected by rain or moisture you should not only take into account whether it can be affected by rain or moisture but also whether you are in a location where rain and moisture will often affect your bow and how much.

Is there a way to address all the tiny details that can affect manufacturing and using a weapon? Probably not complete but what about some of the way?
I can think of 2 points right of the batch that to some degree might solve this problem: describing an ideal yet realistic environment, maybe based on a real part of the world, that would make up the perfect environment for that weapon. And of course a disclaimer saying:



A grade chart cannot capture the full essence of a specific weapon.

Well you know this being the internet a disclaimer is probably never a bad idea lol. If you have to specify these days that hot coffee might be hot you'll probably need a disclaimer for this as well.  :D

The work you've already put into it is quite a lot as it is. The ideal environment would be one way to even out some of the variables I suppose. Just depends how specific you want to get.

To survive, any rocks ( good size and weight) will do if you are targeting a group of birds.
And if you are afraid, you can put 2 or 3 rocks in the pouch. I'm tested with 2 rocks in the pouch ; it's just necessary that the global weight is ok with the sling.
Hunting is done at short range.

The scariest throwing weapon I know of is the African throwing knife. It takes little skill to use, and has multiple blades at different angles. It's not a stealth finesse weapon. It's a nasty hit-them-anywhere-and-watch-them-bleed-out weapon.

All the African tribes had slightly different ones. Picture is from the British Museum collection.

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I will add throwing knives to a sub category "Throwing sticks" under "No ammunition" together with air foil throwing sticks and non-air foil throwing sticks.

Slyngorm wrote on Nov 20^th, 2020 at 10:44am:

I will add throwing knives to a sub category "Throwing sticks" under "No ammunition" together with air foil throwing sticks and non-air foil throwing sticks.

Then there's the teutonic throwing axes, ninja stars and a bunch of others. And the caltrops might be classed as a throwing weapon in some scenarios? None of them as outright nasty as those African weapons though.

I'll disagree about those throwing knives.  They'll take a lot of skill to use.  Otherwise, you just miss.  The guy usually won't just stand there and let you throw pointy stuff at them, they move and dodge.   ;D

If it's a regular knife, you probably don't want to throw it if you can avoid it.  You have to be a set distance to get it to rotate the required number of times to hit point first.  And once you throw it, now you don't have a knife.   :'(

Look at some of Timpa's videos.  He can weaponize almost anything he puts his hands on.  They should give you some ideas. 
 

Bill Skinner wrote on Nov 21^st, 2020 at 9:09pm:

They'll take a lot of skill to use.  Otherwise, you just miss.

No they're short range, not trying to snipe people. Assuming you know how to throw, there is no special skill beyond that. I've often been surprised that many people aren't actually proficient at throwing by hand, but it's a normal third world and primitive skill.

They threw them during a charge and carried 4 or 5 behind their shields. Any primitive weapon can be dodged. With European type throwing knives, you throw them, thats what they're for, and you have multiple. Same with throwing clubs, ninja stars, throwing axes and all the rest.

You don't use them for melee unless you have nothing else.

Have throwing knifes of any sort ever been used in hunting?

Here are the first gradings. Sorry for the long wait. I will make more I promise.
I'm still working on the graphical aspects and you might find some spelling and logical errors somewhere in there. 

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I now rate the bow as the king of all primitive ranged weapons/hunting tools. The accuracy you can achieve with a bow with only minimal training is astounding compared to the sling. Yes, it's not as easy to carry as a sling, but you can use it in much tighter quarters, and be a much more stealthy shot. Seeing those arrows shot from a bow you made yourself, fly through the woods and embed themselves into trees 30 meters further, right next to each other where you actually aimed, is a magical experience

“Sling: Consists of a pouch capable of holding a blunt object...“

You are obviously forgetting about razor glandes ;D

Slyngorm wrote on Nov 1^st, 2020 at 2:17pm:

Ok, so manufacturing firearms and ammunition is definitely possible but still EXTREMELY cumbersome.

Not as difficult as it used to be...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_GJ8La_VXA

Ok, these are the last two charts for now. You have mentioned some other weapons but I don't know enough about them for it to make sense making a chart of, right now.

Weapons that I might rate sometime.
[list bull-blackball]

non-aerodynamic throwing stick

throwing knife

shotgun sling

speargun

pellet bow

other types of crossbow

airgun




AncientCraftwork wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2021 at 11:06am:

I now rate the bow as the king of all primitive ranged weapons/hunting tools. The accuracy you can achieve with a bow with only minimal training is astounding compared to the sling. Yes, it's not as easy to carry as a sling, but you can use it in much tighter quarters, and be a much more stealthy shot. Seeing those arrows shot from a bow you made yourself, fly through the woods and embed themselves into trees 30 meters further, right next to each other where you actually aimed, is a magical experience

I am forced to agree with this....
Some months ago I realized that I had a small bow lying around that I bought at a flee market over decade prior. I picked it up and tried shooting some wooden grill spears. I clumsily put a spear to the string and drew it back and the second I let it go and it perfectly flew through the air and hit right on the target ahead of me that I barely had aimed at I realized just how superior it was to the sling in ease of use.

I still want to use the sling over a bow simply because of ammunition and ease of transport....

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https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=blowgun.PNG (397 KB | 66 )

https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=aerodynamic_throwing_stick.PNG (277 KB | 89 )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSckdiTOvUo&t=2m06s

Throwing sticks are pretty, "real", especially on Youtube, I'm afraid that very, very few people can kill a rabbit with them.
Test a "no aerodynamic" stick. And see the difference.
Just my idea.

TOMBELAINE wrote on Jan 6^th, 2021 at 12:26pm:

Throwing sticks are pretty, "real"

I don't know what you mean.


I did actually make a rating of a non-aerodynamic one but it was so lacklustre that I choose not to post it. Until now.

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First, I appreciate the job you do.
The problem with throwing sticks that it's a totally missing weapon in our societies. If you are never launched a boomerang, you don't know how a throwing sticks works.
On your photo, you have shown some australian sticks which are difficult to adjust for a straight flight.
The less aerodynamic a stick is, and the easier it is to throw.
A link in french : Luc Bordes' thesis about the throwing sticks in the world. A passionate guy and a researcher.

http://revedeboomerang.free.fr/memoire-LucBordes.pdf

TOMBELAINE wrote on Jan 7^th, 2021 at 2:50am:

First, I appreciate the job you do.

Thanks! I appreciate yours and everyone's input. I didn't mean to come off as rude.
I just didn't understand what you meant with your comment, or this one actually. Sorry.

No problem for me ; my english isn't very good. So sorry.
For a survival guide, a very simple throwing stick is more convenient. It flies straight. And for hunting, 20 or 30 meters are enough.
One who knows how to make a boomerang in a forest can make a more difficult throwing stick. Just for fun.
If I'm not clear, say me. Because I do what I can with my english.

I'm not a specialist but I understand about throwing sticks that :
The simpler the stick is, more straight it flies. But at a short range.
The more streamlined it is, the longer it flies but with a curved trajectory. Horizontally and vertically. So it's necessary to adjust the stick.
For example, according Luc Bordes in his thesis (page 49) : two photos.
The shape L is adapted for small game and it's easy to use.

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Still missing with the size.
Sorry

Hi Slyngorm.
After tomorrow, I'll translate with REVERSO the pages 67 and 68.
I think that for your guide, this kind of throwing sticks is interesting. There are 4 photos, 1 of Africa, 2 of Australia and 1 of India.
:)

OH!
Thank you thank you  thank you!
I am looking forward to that. Can I get a sneak peak at what the pages says?

http://revedeboomerang.free.fr/memoire-LucBordes.pdf
With this link, you can see many photos of throwing sticks in the world. Not only australian throwing sticks. Interesting  ::)

I've heard that matchlocks are harder to hunt with than you would imagine, as if the breeze is not favourable the animals will be alerted by the smell of the match cord.
I don't think medieval handgonnes (the pole variety) would be good for hunting though. You have two options:
1) have the priming powder loosely sitting in the pan for fast ignition with a cost to aiming and risking of spilling it.
2) Compress the priming powder in the pan so that it doesn't fall out (even when turned upside down) as well as burn like a fuse so that you can concentrate on aiming before it goes off, at the cost of alerting all everything around you. 
They are quite versatile however, and you can shoot anything from bullets and lead shot to flint shrapnel (yes they did this).
Maintenance is very easy, and making them isn't hugely difficult if you have the metals and the know-how.

Hi Slyngorm,
I do what I can. In private message, I give you some notes about some photos.
If you have more questions, no problem.
:)

I've never liked firearms' loudness. I already suffer from tinnitus, whether that's due to electromagnetic interference or due to noise induced hearing loss, I don't know. I do try to take care of my ears since I was 16, wearing protection wherever required. My tinnitus is not too bad, in nature I don't hear it due to the background noise, but inside a room I do hear it. I do not want it to get worse. I don't get how people shot guns in the past without hearing protection, or with minimal protection. Hearing protection for guns is a relatively new thing.  It always baffled me how people could use guns without it.
I always cringe when I see people shoot guns without hearing protection.
I heard blackpowder guns are not as loud as modern firearms. I don't know about that. If I could own 1 firearm it would be a .22, integrally suppressed.

@tombelaine an interesting take on the throwing stick is the African Rungu. They get quite the distance on those.

Photo C.Livonnen, museum of Le Havre, France
Yes J, a easy and heavy stick with a straight fly and a short range but sufficient for hunt and defence.

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TOMBELAINE wrote on Jan 8^th, 2021 at 4:20am:

Still missing with the size. Sorry

I know this isn't speaking about the topic but you can reduce the size of a photo by putting it in paint and pressing the resize button. I used to have the same problem as well and the photos would take 10 seconds to scroll through

Thanks MarianoV123.
It's in the subject because it's painful to scroll through the screen to see something.
I'm working on... : -/ :-/

Voili voilou (in french)

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TOMBELAINE wrote on Jan 11^th, 2021 at 11:05am:

Photo C.Livonnen, museum of Le Havre, France Yes J, a easy and heavy stick with a straight fly and a short range but sufficient for hunt and defence.

... especially if you live on Tattooine

https://media1.tenor.com/images/6cd533e5c40cbc0db066bd273df0abd9/tenor.gif

When I see his face, I don't know if it's worth surviving.
:-?

Archaic Arms wrote on Jan 10^th, 2021 at 7:48am:

I've heard that matchlocks are harder to hunt with than you would imagine, as if the breeze is not favourable the animals will be alerted by the smell of the match cord.

Good point. I will add that to "Other".


Archaic Arms wrote on Jan 10^th, 2021 at 7:48am:

They are quite versatile however, and you can shoot anything from bullets and lead shot to flint shrapnel (yes they did this).

A higher rating on "Ammunition specialization" and "Ammunition manufacturing" is needed. Maybe 6 and 7?


Archaic Arms wrote on Jan 10^th, 2021 at 7:48am:

Maintenance is very easy

I disagree. The preparation process is so tedious and the fuse literally vanishes into thin air.
But maybe the don't break very easily?



Archaic Arms wrote on Jan 10^th, 2021 at 7:48am:

making them isn't hugely difficult if you have the metals and the know-how.

Well.... that could be said about all of these. I think the simplicity rating is fair because most people don't have skills in metal working, also when comparing to the number of people who know at least a little of wood working. Metal doesn't sprout from the ground in the same way too.




AncientCraftwork wrote on Jan 11^th, 2021 at 4:46am:

I've never liked firearms' loudness. I already suffer from tinnitus, whether that's due to electromagnetic interference or due to noise induced hearing loss, I don't know. I do try to take care of my ears since I was 16, wearing protection wherever required. My tinnitus is not too bad, in nature I don't hear it due to the background noise, but inside a room I do hear it. I do not want it to get worse. I don't get how people shot guns in the past without hearing protection, or with minimal protection. Hearing protection for guns is a relatively new thing.  It always baffled me how people could use guns without it. I always cringe when I see people shoot guns without hearing protection. I heard blackpowder guns are not as loud as modern firearms. I don't know about that. If I could own 1 firearm it would be a .22, integrally suppressed.

I have never been near an actual firearm but I was once in the vicinity of an old-time canon being fired during a historic re-enactment. At 10 meters distance it was like being punched in the chest. Back then it was simply part of the job. Both men and women faced dangerous situations every day and lost some teeth, fingers and health along the way. There was simply nothing else to do.

I have only been at it a little with an air riffle. Which reminds me that I gotta rate that one too.
Any starting thoughts?



TOMBELAINE wrote on Jan 12^th, 2021 at 10:14am:

Voili voilou (in french)

Some comments on youtube told me that it is supposed to fly straight at its target. Is that true?

Yes, of course !
It seems to me that the majority of the members ignore the operation of a throwing stick.
So I'm going to lay out a bit of the theory. Not being a specialist, it will be brief. And you will see that technology is not primitive.

https://www.news.uliege.be/cms/c_11727088/fr/un-baton-de-jet-vieux-de-300-000-ans-documente-l-evolution-de-la-chasse

The oldest and simpliest : the right stick.
It's not profiled, it's solid, it flies straight with a short range. During the flight, it rotates on itself.

Tomorrow, the right assymetric stick.

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Today, the example of the African Rungu.
The center of gravity is shifted to one end. This increases the rotation inertia. So, the range is increased.
It's not profiled, it's solid and it flies straight.

Tomorrow : the first consequence of profiling.

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http://revedeboomerang.free.fr/memoire-LucBordes.pdf
Page 66, photo 46 and 47 : 2 australian throwing sticks : LIL-LIL.
If you start profiling a straight stick, its flight becomes unstable. It spins and falls to the ground.
Therefore a curvature is required to stabilize the flight.

Tomorrow, the second consequence to profiling.

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Profiling gives the stick the ability to glide. It stays longer before falling.
But spinning creates a gyroscopic effect. The stick no longer flies toward its target.
Depending of the trees available, the game hunted, or even for the war, each culture has created its throwing sticks shapes.

For example with this link :
http://revedeboomerang.free.fr/memoire-LucBordes.pdf

page 68, photo 52, an indian throwing stick,
and page 77, photo 67, an american throwing stick.

Tomorrow, an overview of blades settings.

You must therefore find the settings to control gyroscopique precession.
First, general adjustements in relation to the cultural type of throwing stick.
And also, If you look at the examples of Valari and rabbit stick, you will see that each selected branch is unique and with experience, you can better unterstand the adjustement for each stick.

I have already pointed out this link but it's at the heart of the matter. Those who make boomerangs can explain better than I can.

http://revedeboomerang.free.fr/tuning2.pdf

After Europe, Africa, Australia, India and America, this is France at the times of the gauls.
With a throwing stick for bird hunting in the coastal marshes.

https://www.academia.edu/34741219/A_Gaulish_Throwing_Stick_from_Normandy_Experimental_Study

Well, I finished my long explanations.

Thank you for the explanations and drawings TOMBELAINE. Your posts were very helpful and informative.

At your service.

But, I learned everything by reading Luc Bordes who is a specialist in ethnological throwing sticks worldwide.
I maked three sticks without deepening.

The "Rungu" style throwing stick seems to me the more suitable for survival. Just my idea.

That does seem like the best one in terms of simplicity/overall pay off.

It took some time but I finally realized how to make this chart in a meaningful way. Found some software that made editing easier so I'm gonna go back and redo the other charts when I have the time.

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My (very, very, very, very) limited graphic design abilities are being put to the test.

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Have you looked at airguns yet ?

One of the things I remember from the gun museum in the Buffalo bill centre in cody, wyoming, was the collection of air guns they had - dating back to the napoleonic wars.
Yes really.
In napoleons time air guns were actually a snipers weapon. They were .50 calibre and compared to a black powder gun - silent and with no huge plume of smoke to give you away.

No idea on the range, but pretty sure they had rifled barrels.

I'll have to dig put the pictures.

But until that point, I had no idea that serious airguns went back that far and were actually used in serious combat.

Here in the Netherlands, we have no real restrictions on air guns, you only have to be 18 +, and you can own a .50  :whistle:
there are some real nice magazine fed 9 mm air guns for sale here as well.

https://www.shogun.nl/airforce-texan-cf-45.html
1016 Joule kinetic energy

Good that you remind me CA.

I am gonna do that soon. Maybe as the next release.
Read up on them a bit and will focus on the most older types. Like those powered by handpumps and built-in-pumps.


Also, the re-release of my previous charts will follow the same formula as my bow/crossbow chart as:

Sling weapons
[list bull-blackball]

sling

staff sling

shotgun sling

kestrosphendone



Spear and related
[list bull-blackball]

spear

amentum


Modern weapons
[list bull-blackball]

arquebus

airgun

slingshot



Other weapons
[list bull-blackball]

blowgun

atlatl

bola

Morphy's semisling



I wanted to place the atlatl in the Spear and Related category until I realized that atlatls don't actually throw spears.
Might grade some kind of flintlock gun but it is a more complex term than I knew.

Curious Aardvark wrote on Jul 1^st, 2021 at 3:43pm:

Have you looked at airguns yet ? One of the things I remember from the gun museum in the Buffalo bill centre in cody, wyoming, was the collection of air guns they had - dating back to the napoleonic wars. Yes really. In napoleons time air guns were actually a snipers weapon. They were .50 calibre and compared to a black powder gun - silent and with no huge plume of smoke to give you away. No idea on the range, but pretty sure they had rifled barrels. I'll have to dig put the pictures. But until that point, I had no idea that serious airguns went back that far and were actually used in serious combat.

From what i read the first airguns date back to 1500's, this was also very surprising to me when I found out about this, I always thought airguns were invention of mid to late 1800's with the advancing industrial revolution.

Edit: I meant to say 19th century but wrote 1900's

AncientCraftwork wrote on Jul 1^st, 2021 at 4:43pm:

Here in the Netherlands, we have no real restrictions on air guns, you only have to be 18 +, and you can own a .50  :whistle: there are some real nice magazine fed 9 mm air guns for sale here as well. https://www.shogun.nl/airforce-texan-cf-45.html 1016 Joule kinetic energy

Here in czechia you can have max 16J airgun before you need a licence, but you still have to be 18+
I find it funny how I always exceed that by far with just string and stones :D

AncientCraftwork wrote on Jul 1^st, 2021 at 4:43pm:

Here in the Netherlands, we have no real restrictions on air guns, you only have to be 18 +, and you can own a .50  :whistle: there are some real nice magazine fed 9 mm air guns for sale here as well. https://www.shogun.nl/airforce-texan-cf-45.html 1016 Joule kinetic energy

woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
That's a big and powerful airgun.

I have one of those that you 'crack up' in the middle to load it.
If there was a gap in ease of use and accuracy from using a sling to a pellet bow then that gap only amplifies when moving to an airgun. Such a weird feeling to take aim at a target, not having used the gun for years, and then hit 5 centimetres besides the centre of your target 20 meters away.

One can really feel why primitive weapons are primitive and got beaten to the dust by firearms.  :-/




czechslinger1.0 wrote on Jul 1^st, 2021 at 5:00pm:

this was also very surprising to me when I found out about this

same



czechslinger1.0 wrote on Jul 1^st, 2021 at 5:04pm:

Here in czechia you can have max 16J airgun before you need a licence, but you still have to be 18+ I find it funny how I always exceed that by far with just string and stones

Don't you have really lax firearm laws?
Here in [undisclosed northern European country] you can own a 4,5 mm, 25 J airgun without any restrictions if you are 18+.

A serving of modern weapon gradings

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Alright, chose to cut the kestros and shotgun out.

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Time for the first full release  8-)


https://i.imgur.com/lZpTC7u.jpg

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This thread is absolute porn for the primitive weapon enthusiast.

Look at all those throwing sticks. And that bola is crazy long. :o

Now here is a throwback.
When I first had the idea of making these charts, my first thought was making such little diagrams

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Truthfully you cannot "grade" the effectiveness of ranged primitive weapons.  Too many variables.  Plus, the effectiveness of ALL of them depend on the expertise of the  user, not on anything inherently accurate about the weapon itself. 

I agree that grading weapons against each other is difficult.  But I think it can be done as long as you're looking at a specific metric and how they all compare for that metric.  Looking at "overall" grades that take multiple factors into account will be less helpful when comparing different weapons against each other.

Regarding accuracy, I think when most people are talking about the accuracy of a weapon, what they're really taking about is effective range.  And the effective range of different weapons can absolutely be different, with some being better than others.

The old Master Gunsmith Parker Ackley taught me that the  'effective range' of a weapon is the distance at which the projectile delivers all of its energy into the chosen target without passing through and 'wasting' energy into the air or ground around the target.

Accuracy, on the other hand is the ability to hit a specified target (not the thing next to, in front of, or behind the target), on demand (or at least 90% of the time), as close to said target's center-of-mass as possible. 

The overall effectiveness of a weapon is the combination of those two things, performed repeatedly by more than 75% of the users.

I think your definitions are perfectly fine.  But if someone talks about the accuracy of a weapon, obviously we want to remove the human element from the equation as much as possible.

Here's an extreme example (just to make things simple).  Let's say that we're going to put a sling up against a modern hunting rifle with a scope.  To make sure both weapons are being used at a level as equal as possible, we'll categorize the user of each weapon as an expert with it.  The person with the rifle will likely be able to hit a target that's several hundred yards away with regularity (if not every time).  Even with an expert slinger, the number of hits on target at that distance will be significantly lower, because of the nature of the weapon.

When comparing the accuracy of two weapons, I think it's fair to assume that the users of each weapon are at an equivalent proficiency level.  Then the other aspects of the weapon can be examined.  Such as how much human error (even for an expert user) comes into play for a weapon (example: a sling vs. a firearm), how much error does the weapon inherently introduce that will affect accuracy (example: a muzzleloader vs. a bolt-action rifle).

I promise I'm not trying to redefine any terms.  ;)
I just think my description above is what people are usually referring to when they talk about the accuracy of a weapon, as opposed to how accurate a person is with it.
Maybe a better phrasing for 'weapon accuracy' would be 'how much do the inherent characteristics of the weapon help the user not miss'.  ;D

So true -- weapon accuracy and the human element are two different things.  True weapon accuracy can only be tested using  using a mechanical "human" as  it were.  With firearms there are many mechanical mechanisms which hold the weapon on target and absorb the recoil when it fires (I've done a lot of that sort of firearm testing over the years).  The same thing can certainly be made for slings -- essentially a small trebuchet. 

To me, the definition of "weapon effectiveness" is that combination of human (average or master) and weapon.   I've done a lot of that sort of firearm testing as well, being the "experienced average shooter" with a bench rest and ammo to burn...

I would just like to clarify the definition of the meaning of precision.
Accuracy isn't a value in itself. It depends on the situation. A sling is as accurate as a riffle when it comes to shooting at a group of assailants. The target isn't a particular person but anyone in front of you.
In my opinion, it might be better to investigate in what situation such a weapon can be used and why to.
In anycase, Slyngorm did a very big job.

Precison...to my understanding, it's best to have a properly tuned weapon, like gun barrel or an arrow as straight as possible to minimize any possibility of human mistake. With everything fine tuned, now it's up to the user himself and other external factors like wind and distance.