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General >> Project Goliath - The History of The Sling >> Corsican sling
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Message started by TOMBELAINE on Aug 25th, 2020 at 2:32am

Title: Corsican sling
Post by TOMBELAINE on Aug 25th, 2020 at 2:32am
From the same book of Mr Moriati.
Sling is frombula (or sfrombula).
The sling is made with leather.
A strap is attached to the wrist, sometimes with a necklace.
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Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 28th, 2020 at 12:34pm
not sure about attaching the sling to your neck :whistle:

Always good to see solid pouch slings - they just make more sense :-)

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by TOMBELAINE on Aug 29th, 2020 at 10:47am
Your remark is relevant, Curious Aardvark. I must specify which neklace it is.
It is necklace for animals. Like today, the necklace for pets. I don't know if there is a word in English. It's important to look the picture to understand what the author means.

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by IronGoober on Aug 29th, 2020 at 12:03pm
Your explanation makes it much more clear. I would say "collar" rather than "necklace" when referring to what goes on a pet.

I guess the only throw that is possible when gripping the sling as shown is a fast, underhand throw?

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by TOMBELAINE on Aug 30th, 2020 at 4:21am
The author is born in 1944. He's corsican.
He loves Corsica, the language and all the traditions. Young, he interwieved old people in the villages.
The desappearance of the sling dates probably 19th century, early 20th century. The author didnot know the time of the sling. So, he dosn't know the technics of throwing.
Like IronGoober, I think underarm is good. But others techniques may be possible.

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by J on May 14th, 2021 at 4:43am
I don't understand this grip.† Are we sure it is not the imagination of someone who doesn't sling at work? Maybe he was only told how they held the sling and this was his interpretation

The wrist loop is definitely possible. but the way the release cord is held seems so awkward and unlogical to me.

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by TOMBELAINE on May 14th, 2021 at 6:07am
J, you are right. Doubt is always useful.
We're dealing with a scientist who has spoken with old people. It's a sheperd's sling for hunting or herding in the Corsican mountains. Probably with herds of goats.
From there, only experimentation will make it possible to decide.
Jean claude Moriati has among others diplomas, an advanced degree in anthropology. So I will tend to believe him.
:)

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by TOMBELAINE on May 14th, 2021 at 6:31am
First approach, my throw is not very good but this style does the job.

https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=DSCN4529.MOV (3777 KB | 67 )
https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=DSCN4530.MOV (1610 KB | 46 )

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by Morphy on May 14th, 2021 at 7:05am
Says cant play video. Big Tech supressing vital slinging knowledge yet again.

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by Kick on May 14th, 2021 at 7:06am
Same for me :/

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by TOMBELAINE on May 14th, 2021 at 7:07am
I tested a greek style overhand, super cool.

I'm annoyed but I have no other equipment than my camera.

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by TOMBELAINE on May 15th, 2021 at 10:55am
https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1238253826
Many similitaries ! In page 2.
I think that the fingerloop is not a fingerloop because the leather would be too stiff. Just my idea.

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by TOMBELAINE on Aug 31st, 2021 at 5:12am
It's a very wide hold. Therefore, the cow leather is too thick, too rigid. The risk of losing the stone is great.
The sling of a Spanish sheperd is very thin. See my precedent post I think a goat leather. I don't know but for a sheperd, a goat leather makes sense.
With small stones (30/40 grams), I get a flat shot up to 20/40 meters with underarm style.
The advantage of this grip is that the sheperd don't risk to lose, to forget his sling during his work day.
I hope that somebodies can read the video.
https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=DSCN4597.MOV (1909 KB | 59 )

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by Hirtius on Sep 1st, 2021 at 11:58pm
Itís hard to tell, but it looks like youíre gripping the release cord through your hand. The hold in the drawing looks like just a stylized version of a normal grip on a release cord. The release cord in the drawing still looks like it is going around the hand, which is normal.

While I personally canít speak to that style of grip, it doesnít seem to be what is depicted and defies convention.

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by TOMBELAINE on Sep 2nd, 2021 at 3:29am
Here is my grip in hand. I hope that it's as close as possible to the drawing. I choice a sheep leather. I think others are possible.
What conventions and who ?
The video shows that it works.
Until you test for yourself, it will remain words based on "conventions".
This is not my favorite technique but I don't doubt that it's useful for sheperds.
DSCN4598.JPG (86 KB | 20 )

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by TOMBELAINE on Sep 2nd, 2021 at 8:20am
Sorry, Hirtius. You are right. On my video, my grip isn't clear.  :)
But this grip works and it looks like the drawing.
This makes two consistent indices. I think that is worth considering.

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by Hirtius on Sep 3rd, 2021 at 11:22am
This is why I say it looks like it goes through your hand.
803C3CEE-A21D-480F-94F2-C22458146874.jpeg (610 KB | 18 )

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by Hirtius on Sep 3rd, 2021 at 11:23am
It differs from the grip you posted. But even if youíre doing the grip you posted, what advantage does holding it with the pinkie give?
13D72A57-8CAE-4F07-B055-8BC4DA027F8E.jpeg (615 KB | 24 )

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by TOMBELAINE on Sep 4th, 2021 at 2:27am
Hi Hirtius,
There are two possibilities : "on the hand" and "in the hand".
If there is "on the hand", the drawing is bad because the thumb should be in the axis of the belt. Physiologically, the wrist is bend, what isn't confortable.
That's why I think it's rather "in the hand". The text, in French and in Corsican, says : "held in a tight hand".

If I tested with the little finger, it's because I thought releasing in good conditions in this case was not possible. Too many risks of "entanglement". It isn't the case.
img205.jpg (137 KB | 18 )

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by Hirtius on Sep 4th, 2021 at 7:29pm
Youíre arguing something a bit silly. Itís not the style, which Iíve not ever tried before, itís applying it to this case. The picture is bad, but clearly depicts ďon the handĒ. You donít see the release cord weaving in and out of the fingers because it likely doesnít. It probably just goes around the hand as usual. The ďheld in a tight handĒ probably just means itís a tight grip.

As for the actual style of ďin the handĒ, I canít make a true judgement because Iíve never seen it. However, it seems that adding so many points of contact will make error more likely. I think it would need to be better tested. But in general, what advantage would this give over the basic grip? It might be more secure, but if it throws off the release it wonít be as useful. If it works, that would be really cool. But right now, I canít see it working so well.

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by TOMBELAINE on Sep 5th, 2021 at 3:24am
Hirtius,

Hirtius wrote on Sep 4th, 2021 at 7:29pm:
Iíve not ever tried before,


Hirtius wrote on Sep 4th, 2021 at 7:29pm:
It probably just goes around the hand as usual


From the beginning, I have been testing. And you ?

See well the drawing and count the number of knuckles before saying : "as usual".

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by TOMBELAINE on Sep 5th, 2021 at 11:10am
See well the drawing and these photos.
My idea and one month of testing are not silly.
Sorry for the conventions of the "experts" !
DSCN4601.JPG (87 KB | 19 )
DSCN4602.JPG (110 KB | 20 )

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by joe_meadmaker on Sep 5th, 2021 at 1:52pm
I have to agree with Hirtius.† I think it's likely the image is showing the release cord going behind the hand (on the hand).† If there was a more complex intertwining of the release cord in the fingers, it would be important and I think the image would have been drawn to show it.

I tried some throws with the release cord coming out of the hand on the pinky side.† While I don't see any real advantage to it, the grip does work as you said.† The biggest thing I noticed was a decrease in power because the arm can't be fully extended.† That could be partly my fault though because I'm still trying to throw the way I normally do, and this grip may not be a good match.† I'll try it again later and see how it goes.

Regardless of what the image is showing, it looks like you may have (re)discovered the ice-pick sling grip.

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by Hirtius on Sep 5th, 2021 at 2:47pm
Maybe I guess the last thing I should ask is, what evidence do you have? Why should I believe the cord goes through the hand?

The fingernails in your grip are partially blocked because they are pushed into the hand. The fingernails of the hand in the drawing (not covered by the thumb) can be completely seen. This might indicate that the fingers are relaxed and not gripping anything. AKA, the ďon the handĒ grip.

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by TOMBELAINE on Sep 6th, 2021 at 6:41am
My research is historical. So, what I beleave or not, what you beleave or not, don't matter. Only facts and tests count.
I have shown this grip is large and it's necessary to use a soft leather. And that personally, I am safer with a grip "in the hand". And this grip works well.
Explain the past with your truths today is not a scientific approach. Nobody asked how a sheperd uses a sling. Someone even mentioned that paracord is better.
Thank you Joe for testing. I'm interested for your results.

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by Hirtius on Sep 6th, 2021 at 9:38am
That wasnít a response to what I asked about.

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by TOMBELAINE on Sep 6th, 2021 at 11:20am

TOMBELAINE wrote on Sep 6th, 2021 at 6:41am:
My research is historical. So, what I beleave or not, what you beleave or not, don't matter. Only facts and tests count.

You believe what you want. It isn't my problem.

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by Hirtius on Sep 6th, 2021 at 8:14pm
?

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by TOMBELAINE on Sep 7th, 2021 at 6:42am

joe_meadmaker wrote on Sep 5th, 2021 at 1:52pm:
it looks like you may have (re)discovered the ice-pick sling grip.

Yes, it's the best style to sling in my basement.
Hirtius,
Joe Meadmaker is a real specialist of sling because he tested a new method without precon ideas. He is able to account for his impressions. A good man and a good slinger.
Insipid sentences of kind :
The drawing is bad... the artist is not a slinger... as usual... we are THE specialists...
These sentences give us the illusion that we are the best. In reality, they only reinforce the lessons givers.

Test and think for yourself. We'll never know because the Corsican sheperds have long since died.



Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by Hirtius on Sep 8th, 2021 at 1:12am
I guess I need to reiterate the question, since youíre still talking about that I doubt the effectiveness. Youíre right, I canít know unless I test it. But that wasnít what I was asking. Its effectiveness was not questioned or even mentioned in my last question. Thatís why Iím confused.



Hirtius wrote on Sep 5th, 2021 at 2:47pm:
Maybe I guess the last thing I should ask is, what evidence do you have? Why should I believe the cord goes through the hand?

The fingernails in your grip are partially blocked because they are pushed into the hand. The fingernails of the hand in the drawing (not covered by the thumb) can be completely seen. This might indicate that the fingers are relaxed and not gripping anything. AKA, the ďon the handĒ grip.



What evidence do you have that this Corsican grip reflects an ďin the handĒ grip?

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by TOMBELAINE on Sep 8th, 2021 at 7:16am

Hirtius wrote on Sep 4th, 2021 at 7:29pm:
It probably just goes around the hand as usual

You say : "...probably...as usual..."
You say that the drawing is bad but that my fingernails are not in the right direction.† †:-/
Do you have any proof ? I don't have any more that you do.
My arguments convince you or not, this isn't important.

If Slinging.org wants to be a great forum, members don't must accused of stupids reasoning others members who don't adhere to the unique thinking of the lesson givers.

Positive point : two members have tested. If we are interested by the history of the sling, we must look for.


Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by joe_meadmaker on Sep 8th, 2021 at 1:08pm
I don't think Hirtius is implying that your testing or reasoning are stupid.† The question being posed is just to understand how you came up with the idea that the release cord is held in the way that you're doing it.† Is it based only on the drawing itself?† Or is there something in the description included with the drawing that gave you the idea?

I'm making a bunch of ice balls to do some further testing with this.† I should be able to do this in a couple days.† I've actually got another thought on changing the grip so it uses a finger loop rather than a wrist loop.† It feels a little more comfortable when just swinging an empty sling in my house.† I will record my testing and if there's anything interesting that comes of it I'll put a video together.

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by TOMBELAINE on Sep 9th, 2021 at 5:15am
My English is not "perfect". So, if I have offended Hirtius, I apologize for it.

With the drawing and the text, it is impossible to decide between the two grip. Objectively.

The sheperds pick up the stone that are on the paths. These screes are rarely good.

The "on the hand" grip is large.  So, it's necessary to test. And the "in the hand" seems to me safer. Furthermore, it works well.

There is no proof to decide. But the test, for me, is a further indication. That's why ma preference goes to a "in the hand" grip.
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Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by TOMBELAINE on Sep 9th, 2021 at 5:21am

joe_meadmaker wrote on Sep 8th, 2021 at 1:08pm:
it uses a finger loop rather than a wrist loop.† It feels a little more comfortable when just swinging an empty sling in my house


Does this have to do with the width of the grip ?

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by joe_meadmaker on Sep 9th, 2021 at 10:55am
I don't think there was any offense.† I think he was trying to figure out what led to your conclusion about the grip based on the drawing.† It's all good.† This forum is spread out so much over the entire planet, I'm surprised communication issues don't happen more often.



TOMBELAINE wrote on Sep 9th, 2021 at 5:15am:
The "on the hand" grip is large.

I agree with you on this.† The grip is very wide.



TOMBELAINE wrote on Sep 9th, 2021 at 5:21am:

joe_meadmaker wrote on Sep 8th, 2021 at 1:08pm:
it uses a finger loop rather than a wrist loop.† It feels a little more comfortable when just swinging an empty sling in my house


Does this have to do with the width of the grip ?

Yes.

Here are some pictures.† Keep in mind I haven't done much testing with this, so I don't know how it will work.

Grip with wrist loop:




Grip with finger loop:

† †


Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by TOMBELAINE on Sep 10th, 2021 at 5:04am
Joe Meadmaker,
I'm interested in the results of your test.
We are moving away from the Corsican grip but your approach is interesting.
Stay tuned for the continuing story of Corsican grip.  :)


Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by joe_meadmaker on Oct 2nd, 2021 at 10:36am
I posted it in the General Slinging board, but I'll put it here to.† Here's my testing with the grip shown in my previous post.

https://youtu.be/cFBfAJpdM0g

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by Mersa on Oct 2nd, 2021 at 7:21pm
Great video joe.
Iím jealous of your yard

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by TOMBELAINE on Oct 6th, 2021 at 2:12am
What I believe :

We have an etnographic drawing and two persons who have tested this style. With a fantastic video  :)
It is reasonable to think that the hypothesis is probably ok.

The handle described on the drawing and an underarm throw give a comfortable gesture. My personal feeling.


Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by Hirtius on Oct 6th, 2021 at 9:59pm
ButÖ thatís not what the drawing showsÖ
BC2E9D9C-4A1C-4802-9932-DFA566E07461.jpeg (75 KB | 15 )

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by Hirtius on Oct 6th, 2021 at 10:07pm
Here is a view with more of the cord. The cord goes behind the hand and over, as shown on the right of the hand.
EB0A7082-E3E9-45D1-BD0E-5D6D131F1BCE.jpeg (121 KB | 17 )

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by TOMBELAINE on Oct 8th, 2021 at 7:11am
The one has made this drawing has a master's degree in anthropology. He is a University professor, expert in criminal court, and he wrote a book on the dentition of prehistoric men.
Its drawing is very precise and its purpose is ethnografic.
He didn't write : "held between thumber and index finger" but : "held in tight hand". Words have a meaning.
When throwing, the wrist is behind the hand in Hirtius's hypothesis. And the retention rope becomes too short.
What's why I think that a reverse grip is more likely.



Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by TOMBELAINE on Oct 8th, 2021 at 8:20am
We are free to think what we want.

https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=enluminures%2Epdf

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by Hirtius on Oct 8th, 2021 at 10:36pm
ďHeld in a tight handĒ doesnít mean itís held like that. It just means itís held tightly. He likely wasnít meaning to describe any method of holding the sling. But more importantly, the drawing doesnít depict what you are saying.

As for those artworks and this drawing, they most likely shouldnít be taken completely at face value. They get the general idea, in that the sling is clearly identifiable as a sling, but the artist might not have been familiar with the actual use. Iím guessing whoever is making art in that period probably isnít slinging. It also might just be a simple mistake. The place where the sling is gripped (look at the thumb and fingers) in the Corsican sling doesnít make sense for either the conventional or ice pick grip. Although it might represent some undiscovered way of holding the retention cord, itís probably just an error. It doesnít really matter since it doesnít change whatís being depicted. Just because heís an academic doesnít mean heís an artist, though he does pretty well. But heís not going to get every detail 100% right. The most interesting thing about this drawing to me is the wrist retention cord. Thatís a more deliberate detail.

We are all free to think what we want, but I try to base what I think on the most likely interpretation of the evidence. There is exactly no evidence to support this was an ice pick/reverse grip. Upon close inspection, the drawing doesnít reflect what you are arguing for. You most likely made a mistake, we all do. Iíve openly doubted certain slinging styles only to have to confront that I was wrong. In this case, no one can prove you wrong, but youíre arguing without any evidence. I have my moments where I go against the grain (see the Australian aboriginal thread), but thereís a little bit more to work with in that case. Good luck with whatever you choose to go with.

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by TOMBELAINE on Oct 9th, 2021 at 9:06am


Hirtius wrote on Oct 8th, 2021 at 10:36pm:
It also might just be a simple mistake.



Hirtius wrote on Oct 8th, 2021 at 10:36pm:
itís probably just an error.


Instead of talking and saying nothing, you better read what I have writen.

TOMBELAINE wrote on Oct 8th, 2021 at 7:11am:
And the retention rope becomes too short.


On the drawing and the sling of a spanish sherperd late XIXe, the retention ropes seem shorter than the release ropes.

https://i.imgur.com/SMH5BNq.jpg

Do you see  : https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=enluminures%2Epdf

I go for holidays but I'll do photos to illustrate my idea.

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by TOMBELAINE on Oct 13th, 2021 at 10:55am
In front of a drawing, one must be cautious. But, don't throw away everything.
1) The draftsman is scientific. He is precise.
2) He talked with the old sheperd. Not me.
3) The view is inusual. The rope and the pouch are opposite.
The grip is not so obvious. I think that testing two hypothesis is necessary. Usual grip and reverse grip.

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by TOMBELAINE on Oct 13th, 2021 at 11:09am
https://i.imgur.com/SMH5BNq.jpg

For testing, I must therefore make a sling as close as possible.
Same period, end of the XIXe century. Same job, sheperd. Same material, leather.

The two slings look identical. So I made a replica of the Spanish sling.

I do the pictures and I come back.

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by TOMBELAINE on Oct 14th, 2021 at 4:30am
Photo 1 : my replica.
My replica has a longer belt because I don't make fingerloop. For me with leather, it's no use for an normal use.

Photo 2 : usual grip.
You can see my retention rope in my hand.

DSCN4615.JPG (81 KB | 13 )
DSCN4617.JPG (113 KB | 14 )

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by J on Oct 14th, 2021 at 5:10am
When I've made and used one piece all leather slings my natural intuition was to use big fist filling rocks.† If the leather is thin and floppy then I would use a no wind-up cast.† The distance I can achieve with it is not so impressive but it's a decent self defense sling for close quarters, but there is a lot of release cord interference / fouling in my case. It's a sling design that I would use if I had nothing better but I would never make it my default if I have cordage available. Cords in my opinion make the sling a lot more effective.

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by TOMBELAINE on Oct 14th, 2021 at 7:34am
J, I'm agree with you.
The performances seem to me also weaker. But the sheperds probably do not have the same needs as other slingers.

Just my idea.

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by TOMBELAINE on Oct 15th, 2021 at 2:57am
Sling held at the wrist.

Photo 1 : like this photo of Sir Missalot.
https://slinging.org/forum/yabbfiles/Attachments/wristretention640.jpg
Impossible with this sling because the retention rope is too short.

Photo 2 : usual grip.
The grip is too large and this grip is a little dangerous. The stone is not well held. I stopped my shots quickly because of this.


DSCN4619.JPG (109 KB | 11 )
DSCN4618.JPG (107 KB | 9 )

Title: Re: Corsican sling
Post by TOMBELAINE on Oct 15th, 2021 at 12:49pm
Reverse grip :
The grip in the pouch is tighter and this method works.
With just a rotor and a style underarm, it's nice to throw. My personal feeling.
Even it is not an argument, my picture looks like the drawing.

That's why I think this assumption is most likely.


DSCN4620.JPG (111 KB | 13 )

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