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Message started by Rat Man on Jun 1st, 2020 at 12:17am

Title: George Floyd Riots
Post by Rat Man on Jun 1st, 2020 at 12:17am
   The protests/riots are hitting close to home.  Center City Philadelphia is in ruins.  I'm about twenty miles away here so I'm safe.  Philadelphia has always had an excellent police force so you know it's some serious stuff when they call in the National Guard.

https://www.fox29.com/news/national-guard-to-arrive-in-philadelphia-as-citywide-looting-riots-continue

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by vetryan15 on Jun 1st, 2020 at 3:26am
I been keeping an eye on this,  as i have a friend in the middle of philly, and my family is only in the next county then you. I am so thankful we moved, so i dont have to worry too much about myself.

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by slingbadger on Jun 1st, 2020 at 6:48am
Live in Buffalo, NY. We had peaceful protests both nights this weekend. After they dispersed, the riots began. People were pulled out of cars, there was a van set on fire, and someone tried to burn city hall.

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by Morphy on Jun 1st, 2020 at 7:01am
I’m so torn on this issue. There’s lots of good police out there but there’s some really bad apples in this particular bunch. Not only the police screwed up but the EMS involved from what I saw were not following any standard protocols I’ve heard of. Unless maybe they were trying to get him out to a safer area before starting cardiac arrest protocols.

There has been some very questionable stories about “police brutality” mixed in with the real cases like this one. Which I think just fans the division more. But this man was murdered. I can’t imagine what was going through this cops mind when he was kneeling on his neck for 7 mins straight. What other outcome did he expect to happen?

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by Rat Man on Jun 1st, 2020 at 11:03am
   One of the many disturbing aspects of this is that Chauvin felt secure murdering  Floyd in broad daylight.  This illustrates how widespread and commonplace this type of abuse is. 
    On another note, as many of you know, I was an MP (among other things) in the army.  We were trained to use minimum force necessary in apprehending a subject.  If we strayed from that we were subject to disciplinary action up to a prison sentence.  The same rules are supposed to apply to civilian police but obviously don't. 
     As in most professions most police are good people.  In my town I get along with and like the police.  But sadly there are bad apples.  In  some professions a few bad apples aren't a big deal.  But would you settle for a bad brain surgeon?  A bad president? sic   In some professions a few bad apples are absolutely intolerable.  The results are what we're seeing now. 

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by Bill Skinner on Jun 1st, 2020 at 11:05am
The exact same thing happened in Minneapolis in 2010.  Kneeled on a man's neck to "restrain" him.  Guy died.  Family got 10 million for wrongful death.  No idea if the officer was charged with anything. 

You'd think that the PD would have stopped using the tactic after a death.    

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by vetryan15 on Jun 1st, 2020 at 1:33pm
Thankfully i dont live in any cities.  This situation  has gotten out of hand. I understand the protest, but the looting is ridiculous,  and totally takes away what a protest is. Plus ANITFA is a huge problem i see, and talking to my buddy who was sending me photos from the front lines in philly. Its almost like a different country. Doesnt matter what color you are, participating  in the looting. All are animals.

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by Curious Aardvark on Jun 1st, 2020 at 3:28pm

Quote:
Its almost like a different country

unfortunately in the last 50 years this kind of thing has become pretty common.

One thing I am curious about is how many white people die in police 'custody each year in the states.

Is it just that the occasional and totally barbaric deaths of black americans makes better news ?

Yeah the policeman is down for plain murder.

And that's been done.

We had riots in the uk a few years back for similiar reasons.

Protests I can understand.
But in the areas where riots happen, many of the businesses and properties  are owned by ethnic folk.
It's just criminal pure and simple.

I know trump wants to shoot people - me I like water cannon.


The really sad thing is that for those of us observing the states from the outside these last few years - there is nothing surprising about this whole situation.
When you have a man in charge who boasts that he could murder someone in broad daylight and get away with it - how surprising is it when those who look up to him do that very thing.   

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Jun 2nd, 2020 at 1:09am
The death was tragic and senseless. The riots are even more so. I’m a little confused on the motive behind Floyd’s death being so quickly labeled racism though.  Maybe it was. Maybe not. I’ve seen reports that the police officer worked with Floyd off duty as security at a club. How do we know it was racial and not just an inter-personal disliking?  A murder of a coworker is not reason to set the country on fire, so the truth is kinda important here.

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by Rat Man on Jun 2nd, 2020 at 1:32am
    The truth is that Floyd's murder was just one tragic example among countless others of the very well documented systematic racism of police. 

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/02/the-role-of-structural-racism-in-police-violence/553340/

https://www.tvguide.com/news/essential-shows-documentaries-learn-police-brutality-racial-justice/

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/07/data-police-racial-bias

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by Tomas on Jun 2nd, 2020 at 6:30am
I hope it's not all just forgotten about next year.
I think if people are willing to make a stand for themselves we should support them in our own individual way.

Also, if you're going to a riot yourself, please DON'T bring a sling.

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by vetryan15 on Jun 2nd, 2020 at 7:17am
I understand,  that the cop went too far, with excessive force. I have had it done to me in NJ years ago. I got long hair, and a  beard. So most cops thought i had a weapon or drugs on me. I have never been arrested before.  But the guy was trying to use a fake $20,  that right there is a crime. The looting a cheesecake factory restuarant, and all these liquor  stores getting robbed. Its ridiculous, mostly young kids doing this stuff, who never were properly disciplined as children due to society, and thier personal environment growing up. My own personal experience with black on white crime, i just became another statistic, but thats a totally unrelated to this situation. 

But as Tomas said about it 'getting forgotten 'it most likely will unfortunately.  Its been happening like that the last few years with these riots. They go on for a few weeks, everything calms down. People keep talking about it for a few months, then everything goes calm until the next 'incident ' happens. Its just a cycle that we have been going through the last few years.

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Jun 2nd, 2020 at 8:48am

Rat Man wrote on Jun 2nd, 2020 at 1:32am:
    The truth is that Floyd's murder was just one tragic example among countless others of the very well documented systematic racism of police. 

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/02/the-role-of-structural-racism-in-police-violence/553340/

https://www.tvguide.com/news/essential-shows-documentaries-learn-police-brutality-racial-justice/

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/07/data-police-racial-bias


1. As vetryan noted, not all police brutality is racism. You can make the data say whatever you want it to.
2. Even if there is systemic racism, that doesn’t justify the looting and destruction. Nobody is saying that the peaceful protesters are doing anything wrong, but why would excessive force in Minneapolis justify burning businesses that have nothing to do with the police in California or Texas?
3. Even if the data on systemic racism was completely honest, scientific, and apolitical... That doesn’t prove that the Floyd case was racially motivated. Since the Floyd case is being used as a pretense for riots, if Floyd’s death was not racism, then the whole thing is based on false pretenses.

The truth matters, and we shouldn’t be so quick to jump to conclusions.  Otherwise we do more damage in the name of a fake “justice”.

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by Kick on Jun 2nd, 2020 at 4:07pm
Well as I see it, the protests are about police brutality, it just so happens minorities in the states are disproportionally subjected to that brutality. Having a cop kneel on someone's kneck for 8+ minutes, while 3 of their colleagues stand around like it's ok, that right there is enough to protest even before you mention the guy who was murdered was black.

vetryan15 wrote on Jun 2nd, 2020 at 7:17am:
But the guy was trying to use a fake $20

I know the US has the death penalty in some states, but it's not usually administered on the street, by a cop, before the guy has even been charged with anything. I haven't heard the death penalty being handed down for a forged $20 before either.

I don't condone the violence that has been going on, but I see it as really quite understandable. People feel powerless. Who do you call if the police are the ones killing you and you know that the case will just get swept under the rug? They'll get a slap on the wrist and then will move one city over and be back on the beat before the funeral is over. If this same situation happened in Finland, there wouldn't be mass riots in cities across the country because the police here are held accountable and the people trust that justice will be done. Bad cops over here aren't shielded and let off with a warning so people don't feel powerless and then don't try to take that power back by pushing back. Another point is how many of these instances of violence have been exacerbated if not outright started by the police. Badge numbers hidden, body cameras mysteriously losing hours of footage, dressed in military garb with sticks, guns and mace. Look at the difference between this and the lockdown protests. People turning up with AR15s and the police let them walk right into capitol buildings. Again, I don't want people to be violent, I don't want anything to be burnt to the ground, but, quite frankly, you Americans shouldn't be surprised by this. This was coming for a long time.

https://www.reddit.com/r/awfuleverything/comments/gv57ho/philadelphia_pd_putting_baton_in_black_mans_hand/
pquf2euuqi251.jpg (61 KB | 30 )

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by Kick on Jun 2nd, 2020 at 4:36pm
One other quick thing about Trump standing outside that church holding up a Bible:

Matthew 6:5

And I'm not even religious...

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Jun 2nd, 2020 at 5:29pm
Wait... Kick are you suggesting that a politician is a hypocrite?!  How dare you?!  LOL :)
I don’t think you needed to quote the Bible or be religious to believe that politicians do things for the publicity.

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by Kick on Jun 2nd, 2020 at 5:59pm
The main problem now is that the police are committing acts of brutality at the protests against police brutality. Geniuses obviously.

https://github.com/2020PB/police-brutality/blob/master/README.md#Table-of-Contents

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Jun 2nd, 2020 at 8:24pm
The other problem is that there are protesters and there are rioters. The rioters are injuring others and setting things on fire... fires that can kill (remember Greece a few years ago?).  Rioters are using the peaceful protests as cover for theft and vandalism.  Police aren’t being brutal in most cases when the protesters are not already out of control, and even then, police are not killing people. Police are generally doing their jobs trying to maintain order and prevent a bigger tragedy. If it was my job to protect the city, I would probably show less restraint than most of the police have. It takes a lot of patience to be a police officer in normal times. They have to be superhuman to not become the thing they’re being accused of when a mob is throwing insults, rocks, and Molotov cocktails at them.

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Jun 2nd, 2020 at 8:36pm
Edit: Original link too long... https://bit.ly/2XSmc3e

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/cortneyobrien/2020/06/02/richmond-police-chief-chokes-up-explaining-how-protesters-blocked-burning-house-with-child-inside-n2569895

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by Rat Man on Jun 2nd, 2020 at 11:52pm
    White cop strangles a handcuffed, helpless Black man to death in broad daylight while three other cops watch.  Is it racially motivated?  If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's a duck.
    I don't condone the rioting and looting but it's certainly understandable.

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by perpetualstudent on Jun 3rd, 2020 at 9:33am
Well and that's the problem. Any one of the litany of examples that are brought up are either
A. Tragedies that are understandable when looked at closely
or
B. Part of a larger trend that is being swept under the rug

Which interpretation you find compelling is decided well before any particulars come out. The dangerous part is the BLM philosophy (really critical race theory watered down and diffused) where they explicitly reject all processes of justice as being tainted by racism. So there can be no justice because there is no trusted process. This makes any case matter less because no matter what conclusion was reached
"We all KNOW it was REALLY RACISM".

It's a nonfalsifiable worldview that's long on criticism and short of any tangible solution. And one that, in my view, tends to brings out violence. I've listened to this theory, from PhDs no less. I don't agree with it and that disagreement in some people's eyes makes me a racist. And that is a problem.

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by Morphy on Jun 3rd, 2020 at 9:59am
My favorite is being called “literally Hitler” for having a balanced centrist view on this event. I do wish they would occasionally mix it up and call people figuratively Hitler, or perhaps hypothetically Hitler.

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Jun 3rd, 2020 at 10:22am

Morphy wrote on Jun 3rd, 2020 at 9:59am:
My favorite is being called “literally Hitler” for having a balanced centrist view on this event. I do wish they would occasionally mix it up and call people figuratively Hitler, or perhaps hypothetically Hitler.


LOL! Gotta love Godwin’s law! Let’s just carry this to it’s absurd conclusion.  How about this:

“Morphy, I disagree with your viewpoint, and I know I’m right. Therefore you are the effigial love child of Hitler and the demon temptress Succubus  (Even though I am referencing demons, I’m still an agnostic atheist who is deeply offended by your backwards Bible-thumping ways). Because your very nature is evil and racist, and because you also hate women and all people with brown skin regardless of their cultural backgrounds, I do not have to listen to you.  I am also fully justified in any verbal abuse or physical violence I may commit against you in the name of peace because I am good and you are bad. “

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by JudoP on Jun 3rd, 2020 at 11:50am
The whole thing is a mess. I don't think either 'side' comes out looking clean at all... and frankly the whole thing is incredibly depressing to see unfold.

The worst of the protester/rioters are far left ideologues who are driven by a religion of identity and class based hatred. This ideology bleeds into the mainstream and poisons the movement. I want to throw my full support behind the protests, but I can't because of this.

Meanwhile vast strains of underground white nationalism clearly still remain in America, combined with widespread ignorance or apathy to black people still having to deal with unequal/racist outcomes. The fact is that as an innocent black person you simply have a lot more to fear from police. This isn't necessarily due to racism (as black people are over-represented in crime too) but it's an unfair outcome and people don't seem too interested in tackling the problem. Add that to the tinderbox of potentially anybody on the street having a gun, and all cops having guns and it's a recipe for innocents being shot for their skin colour.

Now violence and vandalising innocent individuals properties is a lose-lose, but at the same time it doesn't surprise me that it is happening for the reason given above and many others. These people are angry and have no recourse for these injustices.

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Jun 3rd, 2020 at 1:55pm
It’s really not complicated. How about this: don’t treat other people like trash and judge people’s actions instead of judging motivations.

Eph 4:26-Be angry, and do not sin.

There are lot of reasons to be angry. Even so, that does not justify doing the wrong thing... not even if you are doing it against someone you think is a racist. 

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by Kick on Jun 3rd, 2020 at 2:23pm
One problem with this is that protests and the expression of anger has been where the progress has been made. Suffragettes threw an axe at the British Prime Minister and threw themselves under the King's horse. They were loud and violent and women won the vote. The Poll Tax riots are the reason no-one pays Poll Tax. I've never understood (I'm not saying you are saying this NOOC) those people that complain about a protest being disruptive. That's the point! A protest that's quiet and can be ignored might as well not happen. There can be peaceful protests that are disruptive of course, but, and I'm sorry I don't make the rules on this and I wish it wasn't like this, violence works. If it didn't, armies wouldn't exist.

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by perpetualstudent on Jun 3rd, 2020 at 2:47pm
Violence can work. Absolutely. But Violence does not always bring results nor are the results you get the ones you want. Violence and nonviolence alike did not free India from British rule. Ukraine's recent violence brought change and then invasion.

These violent protests will bring some change. My prediction is that it will not be the change the protesters want.

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Jun 3rd, 2020 at 10:51pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsthNTJI9Zk

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by Morphy on Jun 4th, 2020 at 8:28am

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Jun 3rd, 2020 at 10:51pm:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsthNTJI9Zk


I fear the nuance she’s clearly laying out will fall on deaf ears. I’m afraid to read the comments because I suspect they will be accusing her of things she clearly lays out multiple times in the course of one short video. Probably not great for blood pressure. The 24/7/365 “Media” we have has made sure few people care about anything beyond a buzzword or a headline.

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Jun 4th, 2020 at 9:35am
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=phPXTWJhnYM

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Jun 4th, 2020 at 9:40am

Morphy wrote on Jun 4th, 2020 at 8:28am:

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Jun 3rd, 2020 at 10:51pm:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsthNTJI9Zk


I fear the nuance she’s clearly laying out will fall on deaf ears. I’m afraid to read the comments because I suspect they will be accusing her of things she clearly lays out multiple times in the course of one short video. Probably not great for blood pressure. The 24/7/365 “Media” we have has made sure few people care about anything beyond a buzzword or a headline.


People will believe what they want, but intellectually honest people are willing to listen to facts and change their views when presented with new information that debunks their original interpretation. I have no interest in reasoning with unreasonable people. By definition that’s a waste of time, but I also assume that many people just don’t have all of the important information.

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by Bill Skinner on Jun 4th, 2020 at 11:45am
What if the information is out there and people refuse to acknowledge it? 

That means they are a Nazi and I can hit them?

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Jun 4th, 2020 at 1:45pm

Bill Skinner wrote on Jun 4th, 2020 at 11:45am:
What if the information is out there and people refuse to acknowledge it? 

That means they are a Nazi and I can hit them?


As a general rule it’s best not to try to reason with unreasonable people. In my experience, people who call other people Nazis (obviously excepting cases of  self-proclaimed Nazis or actors pretending to be historical Nazis)
A) don’t really know what a Nazi is. They just “culturally appropriate” the Nazi as a symbol of evil to shut down the conversation.
B) aren’t interested in engaging in an honest dialog.
C) Would find some other excuse to start punching  people who disagree with them anyway if you took away the Nazi excuse.



Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by Morphy on Jun 4th, 2020 at 2:06pm
https://youtu.be/GjKXCXtstc4

https://youtu.be/tyILjGn96gw

And this last one gave me chills. Hard to watch: (NSFW by the way)

https://youtu.be/z_IjvBQwIAQ


Hopefully I’m not literally Hitler for posting this...

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by Rat Man on Jun 4th, 2020 at 4:16pm
    If I had been born a Black man there's a good chance I'd be burning stuff down.  My memories go back to the '50s.  I can remember separate restrooms and separate schools for "Coloreds"  I can remember Black people having to sit on the back of the bus, Black church burnings, etc., etc., etc.  Just when it looked like America had made some real progress extremists took over and we're right back in the '50s.  Racists who would have been ostracized prior to 2016 are emboldened.  Now it's normal.  This mess was due to happen.  If the Floyd murder hadn't occurred something else would have. If I was  Black I'd be pretty frustrated and pissed off right now. 

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by Rat Man on Jun 7th, 2020 at 2:53pm
   Right or wrong, these big protests are blowing the lid off of the quarantine.  There's a good chance they'll cause a second wave of Covid 19.  Hopefully the warmer weather will help.  As I said earlier, I'm retired so I'm staying hidden until further notice.

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by Kick on Jun 8th, 2020 at 4:19am
https://youtu.be/sb9_qGOa9Go

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by vetryan15 on Jun 8th, 2020 at 6:20am
Lots of local protests were supposed to happen in Gloucester county yesterday.  Not sure why, nothing really happens in that area

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by Morphy on Jun 8th, 2020 at 6:54am

Kick wrote on Jun 8th, 2020 at 4:19am:
https://youtu.be/sb9_qGOa9Go


The biggest refutation to what she’s saying is all the hard working black people that have made a nice life for themselves. What did they do that the looters haven’t done?  Many of them came from poverty. Success is more about every day choosing to work towards what you want most instead of what you want right now.

We have a huge Nigerian community here in Houston. On average the Nigerian median income is higher than the average median income for whites in America. I’ve worked with many of them and for right or wrong most of them have no patience for people complaining about the unfairness of life. They work their ass off and by and large do better than the long time citizens of this country. For this reason there is a rift between Nigerians and American born blacks in Houston. My old boss came from Nigeria and works as hard as any two people I’ve met. He’s also built up a thriving business worth millions. He was on welfare and food stamps before his business took off. No complaining just hard work.

Most of my partners have been black since moving here to Houston. All hard workers, several going to school to increase their income and several in confidence just between us have told me they don’t like being called “white” or Uncle Tom or Oreo by their black friends when they study hard and try to get ahead.

All the things she’s alluding to like slavery and Jim Crow are things she never lived through. The police DO need better training. I agree. But we will never get to a point where this type of stuff never happens. Because we are human and there’s always going to be bad people that slip into positions of power. 

All these protesters deny all the data we have on police shooting of different races. If you want to protest when some turd murders a black man in cold blood I’m all for it. If you can point out inequality in our laws and communities specifically I’m all for fixing it. But that’s not what this is about. Most of the rioting and looting is people wanting to break stuff and get free stuff. This is not how to win people to your side.

EDIT: My bad if that came off harsh. It’s directed more at the lady in the video than you. Problem with this issue is most people have good and bad points and me refuting some of her points doesn’t mean I disagree with everything she’s saying.

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by JudoP on Jun 8th, 2020 at 8:47am
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52954305

In my backyard...

In general I'm not for tearing down statues of historical figures as such movements tend to be extremely tone deaf to context of the times and society that person lived in, but I think that Colston was far enough on the wrong side of history (heavy involvement in the slave trade) and this isn't nearly offset by his philanthropy and general wealth he generated in/for Bristol. Additionally I can imagine that his extreme prominence within Bristol is not a good vibe to send out to any minority peoples. On balance I'm quite sympathetic to removal.

However... this isn't the right way to do it. Whether a statue is removed or not should be a democratic decision, I don't want it taken on my behalf by a mob.

And actually far worse than the removal itself is the apologist take:
"People tried to do it through official channels and it got bogged down/modified- so we had to take it into our own hands" I actually think this is quite a frightening attitude to see defended in the mainstream, the -not too subtly hidden- idea that the law only applies to you when you agree with it. I'm enough of a non-conformist, and I'm aware enough of the extreme radicalism found in sections of these movements to be deeply disturbed by the prospect of mob rule.

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by Sarosh on Jun 8th, 2020 at 10:11am
I never understood teargas use. How is chemical weapons use a crime and yet every developed country uses it? why would you spray taxpayers with a carcinogen?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Protocol



I got a glimpse of racism when traveling in croatia (2018). There I learned what it feels like.
I ended up in a cell and got slapped. Purpose of detention: to get departed to Bosnia because I looked like Syrian. I'm EU citizen  "You look like Syrian"  "your ID could be forged" This convinced me that police is just an institutionalized and well funded gang.
Policemen can forget how to speak english when you ask for their ID number  but they are good enough to call you asshole when they are in a group of 5.  ::)


Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Jun 9th, 2020 at 10:25am
I have talked to a few of my friends who are black about the Floyd protests and riots, and I can see how some might feel like my posting of Ben Carson or Candace Owens is insensitive. Even if there is no institutional racism, bad experiences loom large in the memories of those who have been discriminated against. I agree with what I posted, but this may not be the time for facts and statistics when people feel hurt and like they don’t have a voice. Here is a much better sentiment for the times, even though it was said 4 years ago:

https://waysidechapel.org/sermon-archive/love-one-another/

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by Sarosh on Jun 9th, 2020 at 11:05am
I don't think emotions are bad, they tell you something's wrong here. Don't ask from victims of injustice to keep calm, ask for justice. because it happens in HK, it happened to me and it can happen to anybody. I'm not the exception and you aren't either.
what did I do when I got slapped? I asked "what?". There is a time to keep calm and a time to protest.

please don't focus on property when people are murdered


Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Jun 9th, 2020 at 11:59am
This whole movement isn’t really about Floyd. He is a symbol for the injustices that others have experienced.

Every reasonable person  should agree that
-there is injustice
-injustice is bad, no matter who it happens to
-you can’t fix injustice with more injustice

The last point makes the rioters unreasonable. There is no justice in smashing up the place where you live. And, Sarosh, you are absolutely correct that it’s not about the property. Don’t forget that more people have died in two weeks of riots than die from excessive police brutality in the US in a year. Forget the property destruction. The rioters are hurting themselves, hurting innocent people, and invalidating  their own message. They don’t seem to care about injustice caused by themselves (see point #2 above), and that makes them look selfish instead of bravely fighting for a righteous cause.

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by Sarosh on Jun 9th, 2020 at 1:04pm

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Jun 9th, 2020 at 11:59am:
Don’t forget that more people have died in two weeks of riots than die from excessive police brutality in the US in a year.

I'd like to see the numbers. sources?

If the state can't control the police how do you expect the policemen to control the rioters. Apply the existing laws on policemen and believe me protests will calm and riots will stop. first close the hole then get the water out of the boat.

Matthew 7:5

These discussions are better in person it takes too much time on here.

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by JudoP on Jun 9th, 2020 at 2:13pm

Sarosh wrote on Jun 9th, 2020 at 11:05am:
please don't focus on property when people are murdered


I understand if this was directed at me. I forget things are so much more crazy over in the states. Here in the UK we have had relatively little violence, a lot of the discussion has revolved around statue defacement/pulling down which is culturally a big issue.

Honestly I don't see any quick fix to these issues around race and policing. Ceding more control to very politically leftist organisations like BLM* and Antifa (I say this as someone on the left!) in my opinion will achieve no real progress, but will certainly create immense popular backlash. It goes without saying we should root out and prosecute racists within the police, but honestly I think even if every single racist was removed, you would still have George Floyd like incidents simply due to black over-representation in crime leading to over-representation in police interaction (even for innocents). I'm not saying that that is an acceptable situation but it's unfortunately one we are in.

*As a very important note I specifically refer to the BLM organisation, not the movement as a whole

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by Sarosh on Jun 9th, 2020 at 3:45pm

JudoP wrote on Jun 9th, 2020 at 2:13pm:
I understand if this was directed at me. I forget things are so much more crazy over in the states.

It's directed generally to people who are complaining about riots but keep silent about murder by cop or accept it as the norm. If there was no murder there would be no riots. Police leads by example, violence results to unrest. government can control the action of the police directly but not the unrest of its citizens. the unrest can be controlled indirectly. they should focus on what they control .


JudoP wrote on Jun 9th, 2020 at 2:13pm:
but honestly I think even if every single racist was removed, you would still have George Floyd like incidents simply due to black over-representation in crime leading to over-representation in police interaction (even for innocents)

that's a "chicken or the egg" argument.

face the problems one by one not all together. do not stagnate because the problem seems big or difficult. It needs to be solved because we have better things to do than get killed by someone who is supposed to protect us.




Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by Kick on Jun 9th, 2020 at 4:22pm

Sarosh wrote on Jun 9th, 2020 at 1:04pm:
If the state can't control the police how do you expect the policemen to control the rioters. Apply the existing laws on policemen and believe me protests will calm and riots will stop. first close the hole then get the water out of the boat.


I don't think I need to comment anymore. Exactly this. Police brutality at the protests against police brutality. Guess what? More protests. More anger. More people feeling powerless against a police system that seems to actively want them dead or silent about the deaths of others.

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by JudoP on Jun 9th, 2020 at 6:11pm

Sarosh wrote on Jun 9th, 2020 at 3:45pm:
It's directed generally to people who are complaining about riots but keep silent about murder by cop or accept it as the norm. If there was no murder there would be no riots. Police leads by example, violence results to unrest. government can control the action of the police directly but not the unrest of its citizens. the unrest can be controlled indirectly. they should focus on what they control .


I get that but (a small number) of deaths by police is simply inevitable for all races, especially with guns being as prevalent as they are. How do you filter the racially motivated murder from simple statistical inevitability?

I agree that you shouldn't comment on riots without including the context. I find the riots understandable and empathise with rioters but I can't go as far as to endorse, both because I disagree with targeting innocent people and because it most likely doesn't advance the cause.


Sarosh wrote on Jun 9th, 2020 at 3:45pm:
that's a "chicken or the egg" argument.


I'm not advocating no action here. The police should be cleaned up as much as possible and that's an extremely reasonable request from protesters that pertains to basic human rights.

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Jun 10th, 2020 at 12:43am
@Sarosh: I’m still looking for a centralized data source that’s easy to reference, but here’s a summary so far: By most counts, there are a little more than 1000 people killed by police each year on average.
Police are indicted in less than 1% of those killings... meaning about 10 cases per year are suspected as wrongful deaths (regardless of actual convictions).  The riots have still killed more people (19) in two weeks than police are merely accused of committing in an entire year (10-13).

Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by Sarosh on Jun 10th, 2020 at 3:45pm

https://www.facebook.com/juan.p.tornay/videos/10222280881469028/UzpfSTEzMjU2MzIwMTk6MTAyMjMwMzk3NTA0NDUyNzU/

^try to measure attempted murders, assaults and laws broken on duty. seems like the police is the one that riots . they dont approach rioters only peaceful protesters. No one is held accountable, so if you dont do something about that it will happen again and again....

I dont know what they are spraying in US but they spray to the eyes, teargas is a war crime and there has been research for its use, the spray should be directed downwards because direct contact can cause permanent damage to the eyes , you can lose your eyes months after the event. Teargas effects the health of all the community if you breath air you should not like it.


@ NooneOfConsequence

If you ever find sources I would like to take a look.


Title: Re: George Floyd Riots
Post by Morphy on Jun 10th, 2020 at 4:46pm
https://www.yahoo.com/news/queen-victoria-statue-leeds-defaced-103824181.html

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