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Message started by timann on Dec 28th, 2014 at 1:10pm

Title: Sling and buckler.
Post by timann on Dec 28th, 2014 at 1:10pm
I once made a sling-and-strapped-shield video but have intended to make a video with a centergrip shield as  soon as I came around to make such a shield.  This seem to not happen any time soon but today I borrowed a buckler from a friend and had a quick go at it.  It went pretty well, it`s not all that difficult, or slow, to load the sling while holding on to the grip. With a little practice this should work wery well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPtDT-LWeaw

Title: Re: Sling and buckler.
Post by Thearos on Dec 28th, 2014 at 1:29pm
Nice-- but could you keep the buckler high in front of you ? (which is the point of the buckler, after all).

Title: Re: Sling and buckler.
Post by timann on Dec 28th, 2014 at 2:13pm
Yes, Thearos, I could.  Remember I only did this for a few minutes with a borrowed buckler, and had to begin with developing the basic loading tecnique.  I did some attempts at keeping the buckler up while loading, it should be easy to do it consitantly with some practice.  It would be harder to keep it in place during the throw itself, but it should be quite possible, though it seemed to me it would hamper the body movement, and therefore power, a bit.  But any slinger who ever NEED a buckler would adapt to keep it up, because it`s, as you say, the point of having it.
:)

Title: Re: Sling and buckler.
Post by Thearos on Dec 28th, 2014 at 4:33pm
Very interesting. I've never slung with a shield (I have a buckler so I'll try), but I find convincing the idea that if you keep the shield up DURING RELEASE, you impair the shot.

So why have a shield at all during slinging ? (the evidence is of course on Trajan's Column; I can't think of any Greek images). I assume for two or three reasons:

(0. To allow you to fight hand to hand if necessary);

1. To keep you safe from missiles when moving around or when reloading;

2. To give you some protection when preparing your shoot and aiming.

In other words, I'd imagine the gestures as follows: when winding-up, hold the shield high in front of you (against any incoming); when shooting, pivot the shield out of the way; raise shield after shot, relocate, and reload under cover of shield (especially to protect head).

The alternative is to practice shooting with the shield held in front, so that moving, loading, winding-up and shooting all happen with the shield interposed btw you and the enemy-- at the cost of some possible loss in power. One way of doing this but not lose any power might be by still rotating the body, but keeping the shield in its place (so that at the start of the shot, the shield is held out in front by the left arm, but by the end of the shot, the left arm is coiled up and the shield is now located hard by the right breast).

Title: Re: Sling and buckler.
Post by timann on Dec 28th, 2014 at 5:12pm
Yes, your last alternative seem like the natural way (after I tested it with some easy dryfiring) .  The buckler gives less protection in that short moment when it`s close in toward the chest but that`s the price to pay for being able to use the sling in an effective way. 
An important point; I used tennis-ball-size rubber balls in the video.  Stones (and glandes) would be smaller and easier to manage along with he buckler`s grip, and make loading the sling even more effortless.

Title: Re: Sling and buckler.
Post by Jauke on Dec 29th, 2014 at 11:45am
The best armour is not getting hit in the first place! :)
But a buckler is still cool.

Title: Re: Sling and buckler.
Post by Bill Skinner on Dec 29th, 2014 at 11:59am
David did the same thing, he reloaded with his ammo on the ground in front of him, he was still faster than a couple of archers, he could throw faster than they could draw and shoot.  His buckler was about twice the size of yours but still on the smaller side for a shield for the time period.  (Late Bronze, early Iron Age.

Title: Re: Sling and buckler.
Post by timann on Dec 29th, 2014 at 2:03pm
I had some more practice with the buckler before I gave it back to its owner https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgDms-1vEHo

I have of course seen (and learned) from David Morningstars video, I have really wanted to try out slinging with a centergrip shield since I saw his video.

Title: Re: Sling and buckler.
Post by Thearos on Dec 29th, 2014 at 3:18pm
Nice and graceful slinging. Next step: try this with someone throwing snowballs at you.

Title: Re: Sling and buckler.
Post by timann on Dec 29th, 2014 at 4:18pm
Now that, Thearos, was a great idea :). 
I`m not sure I can make it happen but I`ll try.  Bet that would be an interesting challenge.




Title: Re: Sling and buckler.
Post by Jaegoor on Dec 29th, 2014 at 4:47pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG7JORFOXqU ;) ;)

Title: Re: Sling and buckler.
Post by Thearos on Dec 29th, 2014 at 5:46pm
It's a tactical problem--

Try once without buckler, i.e. relying on your wits, on superior range and hitting power, and on relocating often (hence outshooting your opponent before he can come within hand-throwing range), and once with the buckler, i.e, using the buckler to swat away any incoming (which should allow you to get within a close enough range that the sling will give you enormous snowpower advantage).

As we've all seen, you're a very accurate slinger, so the question is whether you get better results (i.e. taking out your hand-throwing opponent) with or without.


Title: Re: Sling and buckler.
Post by timann on Dec 30th, 2014 at 4:07am
There is no doubt Jaegoor can manage the sling and shield combo wery well.  While slinging I think I`d prefer his small shield over a buckler.

Good suggestions, Thearos.  Right now it`s to cold for snowballs but if it the weather allows it I`ll try to gather a buckler and a snowball thrower and have at it.

Title: Re: Sling and buckler.
Post by Thearos on Dec 30th, 2014 at 6:39am
Nice mix of styles in the vid. I remember the Lecuyer amphora, showing the same thing as the vid: if left arm is shielding, the sling hangs loose behind the body as a starting point for rotations.
Lecuyer_002.jpg (24 KB | 96 )

Title: Re: Sling and buckler.
Post by Jaegoor on Dec 30th, 2014 at 8:17am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLHXZcv_pf8&feature=youtu.be
:P

Title: Re: Sling and buckler.
Post by vetryan15 on Dec 30th, 2014 at 8:25am

Thearos wrote on Dec 28th, 2014 at 4:33pm:
So why have a shield at all during slinging ? (the evidence is of course on Trajan's Column; I can't think of any Greek images). I assume for two or three reasons.

I found  this the other day looking  for new tattoo  ideas.
sling_18155_lg_001.gif (63 KB | 83 )

Title: Re: Sling and buckler.
Post by timann on Dec 30th, 2014 at 8:29am
I`m not going to have a tattoo any time soon but if I should I`d probably have something like that ;)

Title: Re: Sling and buckler.
Post by Thearos on Dec 30th, 2014 at 8:54am
Great shooting by Mr Jaegoor, as always.

Title: Re: Sling and buckler.
Post by timpa on Dec 30th, 2014 at 4:04pm
A good loading, Timann!

Vetryan 15 image is an illustrative.

Title: Re: Sling and buckler.
Post by vetryan15 on Dec 30th, 2014 at 6:19pm

timpa wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 4:04pm:
A good loading, Timann!

Vetryan 15 image is an illustrative.



Still looks good. Though.

I am sure I have found  some authentic  images of sling with shields  I will have to recheck.

Title: Re: Sling and buckler.
Post by Dan on Dec 31st, 2014 at 8:46am
Great slinging Jaegoor.

Also, while it may take some training, I can see the benefit to a shield in mass infantry battle to the slinger. For instance, against an army of archers. While slingers may be capable of out-ranging them, some evidence  that we've gone over before shows that battles may have occurred at closer ranges, where either weapon can reach equally.

In addition, I have not seen any slingers wearing any kind of armor. This makes relocation easier, but it also leaves them fairly defenseless in the event of a counterattack. You can only dodge so many arrows before you get hit, and with no armor, it'd really do a fair amount of damage.

Now if the slinger is already protected by a castle wall or by natural terrain features, the shield becomes less important.

Title: Re: Sling and buckler.
Post by Thearos on Dec 31st, 2014 at 9:03am
Vetryan 15's picture is a line drawing from a scene on Trajan's column.

Title: Re: Sling and buckler.
Post by curious_aardvark on Jan 1st, 2015 at 11:20am
lol that buckler was so small I didn't actually see it at first.
Looks like a small saucepan lid.

And yep - don't see any real issues with slinging with a shield. 

Like jaegoors video. But the shots weren't hard enough to release a shield that someone was actualy holding on to. Nice gimmick though.
There were numerous other actual combat issues there - but a good bit of fun :thumb:

Title: Re: Sling and buckler.
Post by timpa on Jan 1st, 2015 at 12:09pm
What size is the smallest found in the historic shield?

Title: Re: Sling and buckler.
Post by Thearos on Jan 1st, 2015 at 12:48pm
There are archaeological examples of bucklers surviving:

http://archive.museumoflondon.org.uk/medieval/Objects/329496/

and the I.33 ms shows a variety of sizes--

http://schwertfechten.ch/html/i33/i33aen.html#01

The one Tinman is using is clearly the steel buckler by the some Indian company (GRFB). Medieval bucklers are quite small, 40-45cm, hanging at the belt, used with a single-handed sword.

But of course, there's no reason why a slinger, ancient or medieval, should have a small shield-- except for one reason: slingers have to be able to move quickly, in combat and out of it.

Title: Re: Sling and buckler.
Post by Jaegoor on Jan 1st, 2015 at 1:18pm
corious A stone destroyed a shield. I used a Rusty ball. It was just a workout.
DUM3rJUQEfM.jpg (214 KB | 75 )

Title: Re: Sling and buckler.
Post by Jaegoor on Jan 1st, 2015 at 1:18pm
;)
Battle_najera_froissart_001.jpg (55 KB | 58 )

Title: Re: Sling and buckler.
Post by Jaegoor on Jan 1st, 2015 at 1:19pm
;D
forum14_003.jpg (217 KB | 89 )

Title: Re: Sling and buckler.
Post by Jaegoor on Jan 1st, 2015 at 1:20pm
:o
tZXngnVR2kQ.jpg (56 KB | 93 )

Title: Re: Sling and buckler.
Post by hubert on Jan 1st, 2015 at 5:06pm
great pictures Jaegoor

Title: Re: Sling and buckler.
Post by Jaegoor on Jan 2nd, 2015 at 2:28pm

my favorite picture :o :o :o :o :o :o
Liber_ad_honorem_2_002.jpg (116 KB | 83 )

Title: Re: Sling and buckler.
Post by Thearos on Jan 9th, 2015 at 4:51pm
The shepherd knew his problem wasn't the slinging: he could hit, instinctively, just about anything he wanted within 80 paces. But ever since he had taken stood in the line and taken the coin-- a whole silver bit for himself-- everything was strange: the sword they had strapped over his shoulder, the orders barked at him and the befuddled others in a strange dialect by the fearsome, scarfaced man in the red cloak, stand, stop, run forward fifty paces, let loose together, shoot ten big stones fast, fall back, lie down-- and over and over, with blows and kicks and curses falling down like hail. 

Now the man in the red cloak had given him a small but surprisingly heavy round shield to grip in his left hand. "Sling !". The shepherd let fly but red cloak would have none of it. "Keep your left hand up !". The next shots were much the same. "Up ! Left hand up !". Finally red cloak stepped out in front, stooping briefly on the way, and stood between the slinger and the target. "Sling !". The shepherd coiled up for his shot and his left arm swung out of the way as it always did but red cloak suddenly dashed up his own right arm and threw and hit the shepherd exactly in the mark of the chest with the earth clod he had picked up. The shepherd staggered backwards, more in shock than in pain, before doubling over.

"You will sling any way you want. But you will do so with your shield up !"

Title: Re: Sling and buckler.
Post by timann on Jan 11th, 2015 at 11:16am
The weather, and life, has prevented me from testing out sliinging while defending from incoming snowballs.  As c_a wrote, the buckler I borrowed is tiny, I would prefer something like Jaegoors small shield if I had to go into battle.  I still consider making a simple one myself, just for fun.

Title: Re: Sling and buckler.
Post by Thearos on Jan 11th, 2015 at 12:03pm
Those bucklers were, of course, for sword fighting-- hence their small size (they protect the sword hand and also trap the opponent's sword).

When you do go snowballing, why not try something simpler ? I mean, drape a woollen blanket over your left arm (like the hides discussed in another thread; in fact, thick cloaks were also used for this). Any snowballs thrown at you, you try to catch in the folds of the blanket. Best would be not to have the stone, I mean snowball, hit your blanket straight on, but at a 45 degree angle, so that the opponent's missile is not only slowed down by the two folds of the blanket, but also deflected towards your left side.

In other words, you sling with your left arm straight, and the left fist stretched out at an angle, about opposite your right shoulder (not with the left elbow bent and the blanket hanging in front of you like a curtain-- you want the blanket to fall at an angle, like a glacis). When you sling, your right arm comes over your left fist (with your right elbow almost coming to rest against your left wrist. 

Title: Re: Sling and buckler.
Post by timann on Jan 11th, 2015 at 2:00pm
A blanket is fine, I know the basic use of those, at least in theory...or, I still got the strapped shield.  I got two, made back when my son and I did lots of "swordfighting".   
The old snow melted and then froze to ice.  There has fallen more snow this weekend, it is up to if the temperature gets right for making snowballs.

Title: Re: Sling and buckler.
Post by Thearos on Jan 11th, 2015 at 5:23pm
H... yeah !

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