The topic line says it all. I've not seen these discussed in the forum. The quote is from Vegetius 3.14

Funditores sunt qui fundis lino uel saetis factis - has enim dicunt esse meliores - contorto circa caput brachio dirigunt saxa.

Slingers throw stones by turning their arm around the head: they use slings made of linen or "sae tae" (these are said to be the best).

Saetae means "coarse, rough hair"-- so wool tufts ? goat hair ?

Add Virgil Georgics 1.309
tum figere dammas,
stuppea torquentem Balearis verbera fundae,

Winter is the time to "strike down does, by twisting the flaxen thongs of the Balearic sling".

"Linen" or "flax" I assume means slings plaited or braided from long flaxen fibres. "Hair" slings must mean something like Tibetan or Andean slings.

Striking down does-- this is for Jaegoor.

:D nice quotes
Saetae =dreadlocks :D
jk... They didn't have paracord though..

Could it have meant horse hair from the manes and tails?

Yes, absolutely !

saeta (sēta ), ae, f. etym. dub..
I. Prop., a thick, stiff hair on an animal; a bristle (class.; usu. in plur.; cf. villus, pilus).
A. Plur.
1. Absol., Lucr. 5, 786; “of a boar,” Ov. M. 8, 428; cf. 2, B. infra; “of a porcupine,” Claud. Hystr. 6; “of the fish aper,” Ov. Hal. 59; “of a goat,” Verg. G. 3, 312; “of a cow,” id. A. 7, 790; “of a horse,” Amm. 29, 2, 4; Val. Fl. 6, 71: “ita quasi saetis labra mihi compungit barba,” Plaut. Cas. 5, 2, 48.—
2. With gen.: “saetae leonis,” Prop. 4, 9, 44.—
B. Sing.: “saeta equina,” Cic. Tusc. 5, 21, 62: “nigrae saetae grex (suum),” Col. 7, 9, 2; cf. Verg. A. 7, 667.—

Thats the problem with ancient translations…

Maybe he meant a porcupine quill sling.  ;D

Unhelpfully snippy and snide comment removed by author

Yeah, but you still don't know what they really meant.

Have you ever tried a porcupine quill sling?

Saeta doesn't mean quill, it means that quills look like thickly planted hair. I.e. saeta can be used for all kinds of thick animal hair (horse, lion, boar). Common sense recommends wool, here. 

So any reenactor who wants to look like a Roman slinger should get a simple, tawny goat-hair or thick woollen sling.

Or made of flax, wich is possible even if it's not the top quality material ;)

(What is flax usually used for ? It's linen, right ? Clothes, ropes ? I remember that you have to make linen fibers "rot", "rouir" in french)

Yes, you have to ret (retting is the action of letting the fibers rot in running water) flax, but also hemp or even nettle and many other vegetable fibers to separate said fibers from the "bark"

And you can use it for clothes, ropes, slings...

Porcupine quills can be plaited..so I wouldn't rule it out. They might make a very durable sling material or perhaps a covering for the natural fibre that could withstand abrasion much better than plant fibre or animal hair.
To the untrained eye, it would appear to be made of porcupine quills alone.
Sadly, they would have decomposed over time so any good examples would have been lost.

The crested porcupine was common in Greece, and quills could be gathered by simply throwing a blanket over one. 

Can't rule it out, it makes a lot of sense. Ystrix I believe they called them. I hear they taste OK too...

Balearic slings are made of flax?

Now note something important here: linen slings are braided from long fibres, something like the slings I make. But slings made out of "saetae" are not braided from wool yarn or thread (too stretchy) but are made out of clumps of animal hair-- matted or spliced or felted.

A few questions:

--does anyone know HOW to make a sling like that ? Has anyone made one ?

-- does the movement involve twisting ? If so, the "well-twisted wool" slings of Homer might be this sort of thing.

--does anyone know of examples of such slings from Europe or the N.East ? (as opposed to Peru or Tibet).

-- WHY is a sling of matted animal hair better than braided fibres ?

I want to hear from someone who has slung with both traditional animal hair sling and plant fibre slings.

And from someone who can teach me how to make an animal hair sling.

While answering question by Lusitani, I note that the oft-quoted passage by Strabo, 3.5.1, mentions slings of rush, hair (presumably animal, *triches* in Greek) or sinews in the Baleares.

Hello.
It's funny. Video in french
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hq9TWDx5SLk
I can't say more because I don't try.

the sling cords are braided or twisted? is it clear from the text?

there are many ways to do it:
1) fibers twisted to cords, like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ISfNZAja3I or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DG26XDPpB8
and then those cords further braided or twisted
2)fibers to braid , like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pO4ERyUXdYU
3)fiber to thread with drop spindle(like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7R0Lb1qA7kE or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUeYJKOYrSk ) and then twisted to cords(by hand or any other way https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVAA57SwM88 ) and then braided or twisted to sling cords

I would prefer to have to braid with cords rather than fibers for consistency and speed. so my preference by order would be 3, 1, 2 . with the 3rd way you can possibly use any kind of fibrous material.

linen vs wool I'm curious which one would be more resistant to sea water.
linen is used for bowstrings for it's high strength/mass , I don't know much about wool.

Thearos said :
"Slingers throw stones by turning their arm around the head: they use slings made of linen or "sae tae" (these are said to be the best).

Saetae means "coarse, rough hair"-- so wool tufts ? goat hair ?"
With the video, I explore "saetae". If the slings made of saetae are really the best ( for Végétius), I think it can be interesting to use this way.

Yesterday, in a shop, I buy a ribbon of felt (1.99 euro) and I make very quickly a sling. I think this felt is more or least synthetic but for a first approach, it's suffisant. 1.99 euro !!!  :)
This morning, I test with a ball of tennis and a few bad-shapped stones. I am pleasantly surprised. It's a good sling.
Are there members who tried slings with felt or a shape of ribbon ? Thearos already asked this question.

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Sorry for the size of the photos !

Just a felt strip, cut to shape ? I wondered how the felt was strong enough not to break under the stresses of slinging (maybe braided strips) but this seems to work

Thearos, your question is good. My example is synthetic, and it is not the reality. It is just a first approach.
This morning with a hairdresser for pets, (I don't know the word), I have got coat of dogs. I shall make a small peace of felt and if possible, I shall cut a pouch. My idea is understand and learn the technic. It's the second approach.
After, if I like this job, I try a felt strip like my example.
Of course, I say you the follow-up.

My English is not good.
It isn't "peace of felt" but "piece of felt".

I wonder if it is a long strip of felted material (saitae, tufts of wool or hair, matted to make felt), making up a tough, unbreakable continuous strip, broadening in the middle to make a pouch

Yes. It's my idea.
Because I don't understand how to make a rope with short coat. With long hair, I understand.
Because felt is an excellent material. Tough and unbreakable.
Because my first test with synthetic felt is ok. I think is a good concept.
It is prove nothing except if this felt sling is possible or not.
Just my think.

My first prototype.
It's also the first time I make felt, so there are some structural deflects.
Coat of dog, nettle and dried clay. The look is  :)
Is Vegetius' idea a sling with only a felted pouch or all the sling ? Why this question ? Because, when the work dries, it's possible to shape it.
I think do another pouch with wool to see the difference.

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Intereresting ! A german friend said me this morning that she knows a grandmother who makes pull with hairs of her dog in Germany.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WudYZNzyfnQ
Linen, wool (sheep, dog or others) or felt. All these materials are possible. So, I think we will not know exactly what is sling with saetae for Vegetius.
But I think it's interesting to search the subject.

This sling is not nice but I tested it with an ammunition of 75 grammes.
The pouch is made with felted wool of sheep.
The straps are made with 6 strands of the brown wool. I plaited 6 strands and after I felted the braid.
This sling is solid enough to throw the ammunition.
There are two differences with the tibetan sling. The strands are felted and the pouch is made only with felt.
I think the pouch is too large and it isn't good when the wind blows.

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Homemade felt from thick tufts of animal hair-- wow ! And even made into a sling. So this IS an alternative to the vegetal fibres braided into long strands !!!

Hell, I might have to give this a go.

I've been meaning to do some felting for certain ancient/medieval hats, and if I ever get around to it I would certainly have off-cuts that would make a convenient sling pouch.

I assume felt is better than even braided wool, because it doesn't stretch = better preservation of energy

My felt is elastic. Perhaps, there are different qualities. So, my feeling is a sensation of a soft throw. Pleasant.
Others tests are necessary. I'll spin wool, felt the strands and plait a "balearic" sling.
A long time !  :-? :-?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GF6CsoLVEoA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-Cf0QuYSsQ
Two links (part 1 and part 2) to spin wool. It's in french but the pictures are enough to understand. The music of middle-age is good. I'm sure you can find others sites with your language.
Actually, I spin wool and about 20 meters are probably necessary for my job.
This work is probably the "Well twisted wool" of Homère. Just my think !

I have made a few wool slings from both twisted yarn, and felting yarn, and they work very well. However, there is one vital thing to bear in mind, which is that these slings are only good if they have been heavily stretched while they dry. I do this by soaking the finished sling in water, and then tie the release cord to a bucket full of heavy things, and lift the bucket and sling by the finger loop, which I slip over a hook on the garage ceiling.
The whole sling is then evenly stretched, and once dry, the wool sling has similar elasticity to rope (no perceivable stretch).
The heavier the weight used to stretch it, the less elastic it will be.

That's a good thing to know. I have been wanting to use wool but haven't known how to combat the elasticity.

Thank you Lithera.
I'll do like you say.

1) Wool of sheep 100% bio and nature  :-[
2) After washed with cold water and carded with brushers for pets.  :)
3) Spinned with spindle like the links.

My german friend has the sheeps and she decides to make a great sweater with this method.  :) The weight of the sweater is about 2 kilos.
It's an interesting experience for her.

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my spinned wool is not very elastic but after I felt the braid, the wool is very elastic.
So, I will test the sling 2 times. Before I will stretch the sling and after to feel the difference.

Sorry for my English. The good text is :

My spinned wool is not very elastic but after I felt the strands, the wool is very elastic.

:-? :-?

Hello,
If you search : fulling on Wikipédia, you find an article about the treatment of wool in history.
To do my sling,I make strands with hot water and urine.
The video is to show the result with my wool.

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My sling is finished.
Like said Way Of The Sling ( not Lithera like I said before, with my excuses), I decided to stretch it 2 days with five kilos. Five kilos are not suffisant. I have a small elasticity still. I think ten kilos the next time.
My idea was that I needed six strands of three meters. My sling is too short. 1,04 meter.
My first test with it is ok. Next week, I will test on a beach to work the range.
probably,I will make another with correcting my errors.

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Recently performed some more experiments with wool slings, and I found a way to make them work really well.
First, tightly braid a wool sling using yarn. (I like 2 ply twist as its fast and can be done tightly)
Once complete, stretch it in the way I described above.
The next step is to dip the whole thing into liquid beeswax, take it out, and rub off all of the excess beeswax with a glove. I then like to stretch it again before the beeswax cools so that the cooled beeswax prevents the wool from 'relaxing' back.
The resulting sling is very abrasive resistant, quite light, inelastic, flexible, comfortable, 'grippy' (no release knot needed), and its handling characteristics don't change even if dunked in water.
Wool is now my favourite sling material when made this way.

Hello.
I am in late with my second sling.
I am interested by beeswax. Good idea. Thanks.  :) :)

I was thinking that perhaps Vegetius was referring to something like horse hair rather than wool. Horse hair would be quite durable I imagine, wouldn't absorb rain, would have a lot less elasticity + long fibres, and wouldn't be hard on the hands.

It's possible, Way of the Sling.
Two possibilities.
1) Another technic to throw with an "more or less elastic" sling. Why not ?
2) Another hair of animal. In this case, I don't think horse because a horse is expensive, not for shepperd. But goat.
Why ? Because, people made rope with hair of goat, like this link in french
https://books.google.fr/books?id=c03K6_WOhOIC&pg=PA43&lpg=PA43&dq=corde+en+poil+de+ch%C3%A8vre&source=bl&ots=VtjHqVkYHo&sig=ACfU3U0p1a2X2PThSXC0q7ORoRtNOEDEcw&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiVuqSKts7oAhWHlhQKHb9rBcUQ6AEwDXoECAsQNQ#v=onepage&q=corde%20en%20poil%20de%20ch%C3%A8vre&f=false
A very good postcard page 43

I have done a reasonable amount of slinging with semi-stretched wool slings, and even though they are still slightly elastic, there is a 'wall' that they don't stretch past. Thus with 'heavy' stones, the 'light' elasticity doesn't seem to be an issue.
I know horse hair is expensive in today's world in part because of the high demand for it in the music industry, but was it also expensive in the ancient world? Even if it was, I suppose the material that "is best" isn't always cheap.

I can't remember who tried making a horse hair sling / cord (Teg, maybe ? ) but I can remember the comment : it's a real pain to work with !

In the link I note, there is this passage :
"the goat provides its hairs for the navy, for the war machines and for the potter's turn" said Varron at the 1er century before Christ.
If I can find hair of goat, It is possible I try but it is not sure.
Do members know (or use) rope made with hairs of goat ?

Caldou wrote on Apr 5^th, 2020 at 5:18pm:

I can't remember who tried making a horse hair sling / cord (Teg, maybe ? ) but I can remember the comment : it's a real pain to work with !

I never made a full sling out of horse hair. I occasionally use it to reinforce things like mixed fiber/horse hair braids for crackers.

Pikaru once made a sling out of horse hair:
http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1172017416/4095

Other than that I've seen movies of gauchos making rope out of horse hair.

A french link translated of "history of Ovide". In an old french, it's funny.
For an abstract, Ovide said that, with hair of horse and goat, people made protects for soldiers. Like Middle-Age, to do padding jacket.

https://books.google.fr/books?id=HTcpdsgKg2wC&pg=PA42&lpg=PA42&dq=gr%C3%A8ce+antique+%2B+poils+de+ch%C3%A8vre&source=bl&ots=k-uUMvJHdB&sig=ACfU3U1OoTYRHnUyAxPmcOn90asCSzIUow&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjt26uy993oAhWG2BQKHaA-DuI4ChDoATAFegQIDBA6#v=onepage&q=gr%C3%A8ce%20antique%20%20%20poils%20de%20ch%C3%A8vre&f=false

Finally found the solution to wool's extensive elasticity: https://www.nature.com/articles/124948b0

Recently tried it on one of my wool slings, and it does indeed remove all perceivable elasticity!
Unlike my previous method of wet stretching, when wool is steamed under tension, it will not return to it's original elastic state.
I have recently been experimenting to see whether sling elasticity is really an issue, and while I didn't really see any noticeable decrease in power, I did notice it is much more difficult to be accurate. Perhaps because different weight stones will cause the sling to stretch to slightly different lengths on release? Just a thought.

Could this be the 'key' to making wool 'best'?
Would love to hear your thoughts.

I think : it's possible but it seems complicated for a simple sling.
After your interesting search, the problem becomes :
- is there a throwing tecnic to take advantage of the elasticity ?
- big slingstones or very short sling ?
- hair of others animals ?

I have searched on Internet for others animals.
Corsica is an island in France and in the local language, a rope (tyed and flat) in goat hair is : funa !!! :)
Fona is a sling in balearic island !!! :)
Today, I think Sae Tae is probably hair of goats.

Hello,
This summer, I contacted Corsican language reps. Here are taken from a book of mr Morati two pages about rural life in Corsica yesterday.

With hair goat, two types of ropes : 1 braided like a braid hair and 2 twisted.
The words in Corsican are SETINA and SETINU. Like Saetae !

Sorry, a bug in my head  :-/
A braided like breaded hair is FUNA,
SETINA is for wild boar, pig and else for others animals like horses,
SETINU is for twisted rope with hair goat.

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Setinu sounds exactly like the ancient material. BTW "Funa", prob. rope but might be a local variant on "fionda", "funda"= sling ?

Difficult question. I think like you. But I am not a lingist.
Fona / funda / funa : sling or rope ? It's tempting.
"Fun" is thread in celtic. I'm not sure but I read that, a few monthes ago.
For exemples, fona is sling in balearic Island. Frombula (or sfrombula) is sling in Corsican.
:-? :-? :-?

Great discoveries on the wool front!
I feel that they would probably chose the thickest, longest hairs available, as they are the most durable (against abrasion and whip-crack), as well as ease of braiding.
This leads me to think in terms of hair from tails or manes.

My first sling and only sling for years was wool. But not braided. It was a strip I used as a scarf for years cut from a swanndri (heavy bush shirt) before I ever tried throwing something with it.

I didn't think about it at the time, but probably a good material because it was preshrunk and had been used for years in all weather. More like felt than wool.

Hello Kilisi,
I'm very interested by your sling. Do you have a photo ?

TOMBELAINE wrote on Nov 10^th, 2020 at 2:24am:

Do you have a photo ?

No sorry, it was a long time ago in a different country. It was very simple, just a strip about 7 feet long cut from one of these bushshirts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swanndri
but I don't see why any material wouldn't work. The first ones I made for my sons I just cut up a potato sack.

But my sons went online and saw all these fancy slings with fingerloops and pouches and stuff and hassled me.

Sorry but I never learnt to do anything properly back in the day so I'm having to relearn so I can teach the kids.

I agree with you.
I made a sling with synthetic felt ribbon. There is a photo page 2. It is not beautiful but it throws very well. With it, I throw up to 80/100 meters.
After, you we can make more worked slings. It's also ok.

TOMBELAINE wrote on Nov 10^th, 2020 at 3:02am:

It is not beautiful but it throws very well.

Yes, I like a strip, no need for knots, pouch, different length slings etc,. You just wrap the extra around your wrist and tuck it in.
But my sons said I do everything like a caveman and they want proper real slings, so we braided some.

Personaly, I have two daughters, and one of them, teenager, once told me even cavemen dress better than me.
Son or daughter doesn't matter ; that's what it's like when you're old   :(

TOMBELAINE wrote on Nov 11^th, 2020 at 4:48am:

Son or daughter doesn't matter

Yep, 3 sons & 2 daughters, they all sling and the only one doesn't get cheeky is the baby

Big breakthrough on the "wool" front!
I just found this with regard to Goat Hair (hairs from the outer coat): " The yarn is akin to linen, strong with very little elastic memory. "
I am now confident that this is close to the Saetae that Vegetius was describing, as such qualities are quite favorable for slings. The structure of the fibre, along with the natural oils present, makes it durable and very resistant against rain.(as it was when it was on the goat!)
I also found this somewhere else: " Columella stated that it was used for ropes with a reputation for lasting longer in water than hemp ropes, as well as for sacking, sails, and tents. " https://sciencepress.mnhn.fr/sites/default/files/articles/pdf/az1993n17a5.pdf

That sounds like it fits the bill.

Perfect ! (esp. since "saetae" means "quills, spikes", so perfect for long outer-coat hair). Now to make a sling with this material-- how is it plaited into ropes, rather than woven into cloth ? I assume the hair are spun into yarn, and hence yarn strands can be plaited as normal ? Or is hair spun into a very thick yarn that can be used directly for slings ?

Thearos wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2021 at 11:32am:

the hair are spun into yarn, and hence yarn strands can be plaited as normal ?

It seems like a balearic sling.


Thearos wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2021 at 11:32am:

Or is hair spun into a very thick yarn that can be used directly for slings ?

Ok for the belts but more complicated for the pouch.

I prefer the first solution. It seems easier and quicker to implement.
Just my idea.

Thearos wrote on Aug 24^th, 2014 at 4:11pm:

POURQUOI une écharpe en poils d'animaux emmêlés est-elle meilleure que les fibres tressées ?

Because there are goats everywhere and their hair is cheap ?

I am very soon receiving a sling from Iran, made by a man who was taught how to make slings by his father. He uses various materials but he has said that the one he's sent me uses goat hair for the cords and then wool for the pouch. It's hard to say if this is the same as they would have been made in history, but it seems it is a known technique that works for slings. I think this is essentially solved. I believe there was the distinction made between goat outer hairs and wool and so this was what was meant. Once I get the sling I'll take lots of close up pictures to show the construction.

AMAZING ! It must be from the Zagros, right ?

Thearos wrote on Oct 7^th, 2021 at 9:18pm:

AMAZING ! It must be from the Zagros, right ?

I don't know exactly where the maker is from, but yes around that area. It arrived today and is absolutely beautiful, but it's also clear this is not just for decoration. This is definitely a functional tool. Photos to come very soon.

Some close-ups.

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Waouhh !

So that's what yarn made with goat hair looks like ?

Apparently so.

I found goat hair, the long outer hairs.
Hard to work by hand. The result is solid but easily undone.
I think we should use all the hair, the wool too.
My incompetence can also explain the result.

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Yesterday, I showed you my first twist. With the second twist, the rope holds better.
In front of is nettle. This makes it possible  to compare with the same manufacturing process.
I think that I must try to twist the goat hair with a fusaiole.

https://fr.timesofisrael.com/une-collection-de-mode-decouverte-ou-salomon-exploitait-des-mines/
A link in french with a photo of a rope made with goat.

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I'm dropping in a link to this post, since it is on the same topic:

https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1640892005

Here are my two attempts. Strong but difficult to keep tight.
I think all the hair is necessary to make a rope.

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