Is this fair?  Please remember to be respectful.  
http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/08/us/california-gay-eagle-scout

Well for starters:


Quote:

John Fenoglio, Scout executive for the Mount Diablo-Silverado Boy Scout Council, said the Eagle rank application from Ryan Andresen of Moraga, California, wasn't approved because of "membership standards," specifically "duty to God, avowed homosexuality, and the fact that he is now over 18 years of age."

And


Quote:

"The Eagle application was forwarded, by a volunteer, to the local council but it was not approved because this young man proactively stated that he does not agree to Scouting's principle of 'Duty to God' and does not meet Scouting's membership requirements," Smith said. "Therefore, he is not eligible to receive the rank of Eagle."

It was apparently due to these 3 reasons, not just because he was "gay". The simple fact the news focused on that 1 aspect is evidence enough that they are looking to aggravate the situation.

I think the media has some blame to share with this. No offense anyone, I am kinda young, but I have discussed this with parents, and this seems to be true. Being a Catholic, I personally do not believe in homosexuality, but that does not mean gay people have no rights. they are PEOPLE, NOT THINGS. They deserve to be treated as people. I know some people who are openly gay at my school, and they are completly normal. They act no different, and are all nice, normal people. I used to be  a Boy-scout, but I have had much less time for things such as it, and quit 3 years ago. Now, I am dissappointed, and I know multiple other people. One of my best friends is quitting Boy-Scouts(for unrelated reasons). I think that the media needs to tell the other reasons. Media is BIASED, people! Media is concerned with how many people listen/read/watch the media, not how good their info is. They care about making money. All media is biased to some degree, but some is less than others. Therefore the media will report what they think will get the most $$$. One major argument- A man murdered a baby in China(guys, please I saw this on news, I am not trying to criticise ANYONE) and it made the news. When do the thousands of babies that are killed each day by abortion make the news? This is just one good example, I hope no one took serious offense to it.
-Squirrel

The heart of the issue is whether or not the Boy Scouts is a faith based organization, and whether being exclusionary is the same as being persecutory. I err on the side of yes and no, respectively. Being faith based they have the right, in my opinion, to make belief in God a requirement of membership. Or at least keep the issue don't ask, don't tell. And being exclusionary they have a right to select their members based on any criteria they choose.

If I was that kid, I would have left Boy Scouts long ago  :)
Greetings,
Mauro.

Mauro Fiorentini wrote on Mar 8^th, 2013 at 10:27pm:

If I was that kid, I would have left Boy Scouts long ago  :) Greetings, Mauro.

Dont even mention it, I know people who left boy scouts and are now....
I dont think it is approiate to post it, given C.A's rule from 8 to 80!

...lost in some wood?
They forgot to steal a compass?
Greetings,
Mauro.

Mauro Fiorentini wrote on Mar 8^th, 2013 at 10:42pm:

...lost in some wood? They forgot to steal a compass? Greetings, Mauro.

No. Totally wrong. Well, not totally.
Anyway. as in they now do bad things.

 Their organization, their rules.  Too often the media and the so called victim themselves try and use something like I'm gay, I'm a woman, I'm ethnic, etc. just as a way to get their own way and it makes it look bad for the people who actually are legitimately being discriminated against and people don't take it seriously.  I'm pretty sure he didn't not get the badge because he's gay, but if he doesn't believe in god and the organization has it as a requirement then look no further.  My personal opinion on such things is that as long as you follow the teachings it doesn't matter what you believe, I am an agnostic, I don't really have belief in any specific religion but I see good and evil the teachings and members of all of them and I learn from that and live my life accordingly, you don't have to believe in god to lead a christian life and if there is a god he shouldn't require you to kiss his butt every sunday just to get get in heaven, just that you heed his warnings.  I've always thought church needed less praise and more learning, the reason for this being that they haven't updated it enough since the Feudal days when people were servants to the king.  As far as not believing in god to be in the boyscouts I personally think it shouldn't matter as long as he learns the teachings, I have even met ministers he don't believe in god but believe only in the good that the teachings can do.

LukeWebb wrote on Mar 9^th, 2013 at 1:40am:

Their organization, their rules.  Too often the media and the so called victim themselves try and use something like I'm gay, I'm a woman, I'm ethnic, etc. just as a way to get their own way and it makes it look bad for the people who actually are legitimately being discriminated against and people don't take it seriously.  I'm pretty sure he didn't not get the badge because he's gay, but if he doesn't believe in god and the organization has it as a requirement then look no further.

100% agree. Happens all the time.



Quote:

My personal opinion on such things is that as long as you follow the teachings it doesn't matter what you believe, I am an agnostic, I don't really have belief in any specific religion but I see good and evil the teachings and members of all of them and I learn from that and live my life accordingly, you don't have to believe in god to lead a christian life and if there is a god he shouldn't require you to kiss his butt every sunday just to get get in heaven, just that you heed his warnings.  I've always thought church needed less praise and more learning, the reason for this being that they haven't updated it enough since the Feudal days when people were servants to the king.  As far as not believing in god to be in the boyscouts I personally think it shouldn't matter as long as he learns the teachings, I have even met ministers he don't believe in god but believe only in the good that the teachings can do.

That's another argument altogether.

I respect your opinion and understand it, however some of this appears to be said without understanding what it means to actually be a 'Christian' (Fun fact, it's thought that that term originated as an insult).


You're 100% correct, you do not need to believe in God to live a moral life, I'm sure we all know people like that. However, a Christian life is not what you'd expect.
Being a Christian does not mean you are good or perfect person. Far from it. There's a common misconception that being a good person gets you into heaven, but this simply isn't the case.

Romans 3:23
"For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God"

God created us all with free will, as a relationship without it is completely empty and without meaning. If I wanted, I could make my laptop say 'I love you GeneralMushroom, I worship you, I'll do anything for you!', but I don't. (Really, I don't). Why? Because there's no point.

The danger of free will is that we have the option to say no, and this does happen.


Sin isn't just 'doing bad things'. It's an act of 'We think we know better than God, we'll do it our way'.

'Do not murder', actually, I think I will benefit from murdering someone, so I'll do it. Believing you're better off doing it your way than God's way, and this has a pretty good track record of not working out.

We believe that it is not good people that get into heaven, it is forgiven people. God knew the problem that we make mistakes, and that we aren't (for lack of a better word) good enough. That's why He directly intervened in the form of man. He came down to Earth Himself to fix the problem.

We believe Jesus is fully man and fully God. How this works, no-one knows (neither do we know why light acts as a particle and a wave, yet we believe that too). He lived what we would call a perfect life, suffered the most painful form of torture and death, took the judgement of our sins upon himself so that all who believe in him would have eternal life in heaven with God.

Romans 5:6-8
"You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."


Living a Christian life is knowing, understanding and believing that Jesus died for YOU because He loves YOU so much. It has nothing to do with how many times you go to church or, 'kiss his ass'.

We praise him as a response to what he has done for us. Worship is the act of living a life that glorifies Him.
When I became a Christian in 2009, I wasn't a nice person. But through the grace of God and understanding what He has done for me, I try to live a life that emulates Christ as a response to what he did for me.
This is where the teaching comes on. It's about learning how to live the way God planned for us. None of that 'don't eat pork, get circumcised etc' from the old testament chapters like Leviticus. That was helpful advice from God about how to stay healthy and safe in an age of poor hygiene and hostile nations.

I'd recommend watching this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mSB46UcTEk


I know I've gone majorly off topic and I apologise for that, but I hope you've enjoyed reading it :)

 Partially true, but you can't just keep doing terrible things and being forgiven over and over again, to be forgiven you must be sincere in your wish to repent and follow the teachings of god henceforth.  A.k.a you gotta be good.  It is one of the big holes in particularly the catholic faith where a lot of really bad people end up using the forgiveness or "confessional" as a way to absolve themselves while doing very bad things, (that's why the mob loved going to church,) and while it is a wonderful tool to aid people who truly wish to go straight (guilt is a terrible thing,) it can get very out of hand, saying a few hail marys doesn't make up for killing a man in cold blood, but maybe going straight and helping others will eventually get you there.
 The other thing that Church does that is very valuable in society is it gives you a standard to live up to.  Without it there wouldn't be that status quo that you are expected to be.  Imagine if anybody could do anything they want without being judged by others, people would do a lot of verry strange things!  While even without church you would still have that it facilitates it further and makes you feel guilty for doing bad things.  Try going to church after sleeping with the neighbors wife and everyone knowing...

Well, are they a private organisation? If so, to my understanding the rules allow them to have their own requirements for the organization. Regardless of how unfair and preposterous they are, they can do it. I'm not sure about how the U.S. legal system entirely works, since it seems organisations, even if private, do have to obey certain laws varying by state. Someone with more info, what exactly is up with all those laws about not discriminating based on XXX, where do those apply and not?

And I'm willing to let them. It's that silly thing with us Americans seeming to value freedom and understand in a different sense than you other people. Or maybe it's capitalism and the whole "profit". But that isn't boy scouts.

I strongly disagree on that principle the Boy Scouts currently have about god, but that's them.  It sucks, but you change minds with education and reason, not laws. Give it time, young people are growing up, hopefully they see the error in ways of judging people without regard to the persons character.

I think it's fair for an organization to set their own rules and standards for membership.

I think it is a good thing that the BSA are exclusionary, it opens the door for the creation of new and hopefully better (IMHO) organizations.

I was a Boy Scout, and being a non-christian, I disliked that part of it.  It's one of the reasons why I stopped scouting.

There are certain parts of scouting (wilderness skills and stewardship of nature) that I loved and it sort of planted that seed in my life that has grown into a big part of who I now am.  I plan on sharing that love with my children and anyone else willing to sit around for it.  And to me, that's a big part of what scouting is about.

 I'm opposed to discriminating against gays or atheists, but I'm not sure that's what's going on here.  I was a Cub Scout for a while (Mom was our den mother) then a Boy Scout for six years.  I made it to Life Scout, one rank below Eagle.  Every week we'd repeat the Scout Oath, Creed, and Motto.  Part of that was swearing on your honor to do your duty to God.  I lost my religious zeal by the time I was eleven, but I had enough sense to keep quiet about it in Scouts.  Had I stood up at a meeting during the Scout Oath and claimed "There is no God"  or something like that  I'm pretty sure they'd have booted me out.  Here's a copy of the Scout Oath:
On my honor, I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.
  That pretty much sums up the mind set of the Boy Scouts of America.  I think it comes down to common sense here.  If I wanted to remain in the Scouts but was gay or an atheist (I'm neither, BTW) I would have had enough sense to keep my big mouth shut about such things.  I don't think it's the policy of the BSA to actively search for atheists or gays among their ranks but if someone wants to go public it sort of forces their hand.  

In fact Rat Man, I agree with you and I judge the whole thing extremely ridicolous.
You (metaphorically) know what's the Boy Scout, so it's up to you to stay or leave.
The whole thing does not deserve all this rumor in my opinion.
Greetings,
Mauro.

Pretty much what GM said.

Keep in mind, he was over 18, That's a no-go.

The only thing anyone should be angry about is how much the media twists information to promote their own agendas.

Luke, GM isn't talking about Catholism. The Bible says that your good works, without righteousness, are like filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6 and a few other verses). And confessing to some dude in a closet is not the same as confessing to God. Jesus Christ was the mediator between God and Man. Now that the veil has been torn, we each have a straight line to God through prayer. Not through a priest.
And Confession without Repentance is pointless. There is no amount of good works that will get you into heaven. The Bible pretty clearly states, Jesus is THE way, THE truth, and THE life, and no one comes to the Father, except through him.
And Ephsians 2:8-10 8 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

Other organizations are just as exclusionary as Scouts. The Fraternal Order of the Eagles, whom my father and cousins  belonged to, don't allow black people in.
BSA is losing millions in endorsements from their policies, and may change this policy soon.  

Dan wrote on Mar 9^th, 2013 at 5:15pm:

And confessing to some dude in a closet is not the same as confessing to God. Jesus Christ was the mediator between God and Man. Now that the veil has been torn, we each have a straight line to God through prayer. Not through a priest.

I believe the original request was to keep respectful. It seems to have turned into a Catholic-bashing thread by some members and as a Catholic myself, is frankly one of the recurring themes I really don't like about this forum, re: those that study the Bible are somehow true Christians, whereas other denominations are lesser and imperfect, not to mention other religions. IMO this comes across as being rather arrogant and certainly not respectful. Catholics believe that an ordained priest acts as an intermediary getween them and God through the sacrament of confession. And no, it isn't necessarily a "get out of jail free card", by "spending five minutes in a closet with some dude". You have to mean it and it's not something to be taken lightly.

You might not believe, like nor understand what others believe but ridiculing them isn't particularly attractive either. I don't much care if others here are Hindu, Sikh, Moselms or other types of Christians. I see no need to raise myself at their expense. It would be nice if others here did the same.

snowcelt wrote on Mar 10^th, 2013 at 12:01pm:

Dan wrote on Mar 9th, 2013 at 5:15pm: And confessing to some dude in a closet is not the same as confessing to God. Jesus Christ was the mediator between God and Man. Now that the veil has been torn, we each have a straight line to God through prayer. Not through a priest. I believe the original request was to keep respectful. It seems to have turned into a Catholic-bashing thread by some members and as a Catholic myself, is frankly one of the recurring themes I really don't like about this forum, re: those that study the Bible are somehow true Christians, whereas other denominations are lesser and imperfect, not to mention other religions. IMO this comes across as being rather arrogant and certainly not respectful. Catholics believe that an ordained priest acts as an intermediary getween them and God through the sacrament of confession. And no, it isn't necessarily a "get out of jail free card", by "spending five minutes in a closet with some dude". You have to mean it and it's not something to be taken lightly. You might not believe, like nor understand what others believe but ridiculing them isn't particularly attractive either. I don't much care if others here are Hindu, Sikh, Moselms or other types of Christians. I see no need to raise myself at their expense. It would be nice if others here did the same.

   Well said, snowcelt.  I'm sure we can make our points without crapping all over someone else's religion.  Once again, please keep it respectful.

Sorry guys. PM sent to snow celt.

Its really not about me, its about Christ.

As the Bible says "While we (including myself) were yet Sinners, Christ died for us."

I really didn't mean to come off as arrogant but sometimes I forget to temper my zeal with wisdom and my words can come out as self righteous. Still not a fan of Catholism, nor do I agree with its theology, nor do I really respect it, but I don't want to come off as pompus or serriously offensive.

I'll try to choose my words more carefully next time.

Dan, I do not think you truly understand Catholicism. It's like concluding that Christians are devil worshipping sadists because they use the Roman torture device that killed the messiah as their insignia. You're missing a lot by being on the outside looking in and not asking questions.

Masiakasaurus wrote on Mar 10^th, 2013 at 12:44pm:

Dan, I do not think you truly understand Catholicism. It's like concluding that Christians are devil worshipping sadists because they use the Roman torture device that killed the messiah as their insignia. You're missing a lot by being on the outside looking in and not asking questions.

My grandmother is very catholic and both of my parents were Catholic into their early 30's. I've had a few Bible classes where we review Catholism. That's why I know i disagree with most of its theological view points. I understand it farily well though probably not as well as some Catholics.

Sometimes I oversimplify things when I'm in a hurry to post or if I want to make a point. Sorry if that makes what I say opaque or offensive.

I felt I buried the hatchet pretty well in my earlier post.

This thread is really about Boy Scout's decision more than Catholic Theology. If its cool with you, it'd probably be better to cover this in PM or in a different thread.  :)

The last time I checked, Christianity was not a requirement to be a Boy Scout. Boy Scouting is a world wide organization with members of almost every religious belief.

bigkahuna wrote on Mar 10^th, 2013 at 2:45pm:

The last time I checked, Christianity was not a requirement to be a Boy Scout. Boy Scouting is a world wide organization with members of almost every religious belief.

The Boy Scouts of America is a separate organization from the World Scouting Movement. Christianity is not a requirement of BSA, but they call themselves "faith based." It doesn't matter what you believe, only that you believe. Their prohibition against gay member is separate from their faith requirement.

Dan wrote on Mar 10^th, 2013 at 1:45pm:

Masiakasaurus wrote on Mar 10th, 2013 at 12:44pm: Dan, I do not think you truly understand Catholicism. It's like concluding that Christians are devil worshipping sadists because they use the Roman torture device that killed the messiah as their insignia. You're missing a lot by being on the outside looking in and not asking questions. My grandmother is very catholic and both of my parents were Catholic into their early 30's. I've had a few Bible classes where we review Catholism. That's why I know i disagree with most of its theological view points. I understand it farily well though probably not as well as some Catholics.

Let's not forget that you had Bible classes. What was the slant of those Bible classes? Protestant? Baptist? Calvin? You're learning about Catholicism from a certain viewpoint, just as if you took classes about Catholicism in a Hindu Religion class, or Koran class, etc.

 Depends how you interperate "through him".  Through him could easily be seen as meaning by his teachings, the term of god is just a face put to an ideal, people won't believe in an idea but they will follow a person!  "do not covet they neighbors wife!" "interesting, who said that?" "dunno, just heard it somewhere!"     "Do not covet thy neighbors wife!" "Who said that?"  " The son of god, Jesus, told me!"  Now he listens.
 I have always thought of the bible as simply one big metaphor rooted loosely in fact.  Everything there is meant to teach you a path to follow and it doesn't matter whether any of it is true as long as it helps you and others.  The entire thing can be interperated hundreds of different ways, much like the Muslim faith is being distorted to fuel terrorism, and in the end there is no right way to understand it, just believe in the message.

Very well put, Luke, at least in my opinion.

Quote:

The Bible says that your good works, without righteousness, are like filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6 and a few other verses).

All I can say is that I'd rather have a filthy rag through genuine kindness than do a kind deed because I feel I should - whether I want to or not.

When I help someone - I do so because I want to and because it's what i feel is the right thing to do, not because someone told me I have to.

That is some twisted interpretation of kindness Dan.

Anyway, lets try and keep this fairly civil.

I'd have thought the discussion would have been better centred around why you would ban a homosexual when you're really trying to keep out paedophiles. Who most often aren't homosexuals.

GeneralMushroom wrote on Mar 8^th, 2013 at 5:57pm:

Well for starters: Quote: John Fenoglio, Scout executive for the Mount Diablo-Silverado Boy Scout Council, said the Eagle rank application from Ryan Andresen of Moraga, California, wasn't approved because of "membership standards," specifically "duty to God, avowed homosexuality, and the fact that he is now over 18 years of age." And [quote]"The Eagle application was forwarded, by a volunteer, to the local council but it was not approved because this young man proactively stated that he does not agree to Scouting's principle of 'Duty to God' and does not meet Scouting's membership requirements," Smith said. "Therefore, he is not eligible to receive the rank of Eagle."

It was apparently due to these 3 reasons, not just because he was "gay". The simple fact the news focused on that 1 aspect is evidence enough that they are looking to aggravate the situation. [/quote]

Think that pretty much nails it.
Regardless of religious or sexual preferences - he was simply not eligible through age - end of story.

Curious Aardvark wrote on Mar 11^th, 2013 at 8:23am:

Quote: The Bible says that your good works, without righteousness, are like filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6 and a few other verses). All I can say is that I'd rather have a filthy rag through genuine kindness than do a kind deed because I feel I should - whether I want to or not. When I help someone - I do so because I want to and because it's what i feel is the right thing to do, not because someone told me I have to. That is some twisted interpretation of kindness Dan. Anyway, lets try and keep this fairly civil.

As with everything, It helps to have some context. What its saying is that when you are standing before God taking account for what you've done, if you haven't accepted Jesus Christ, those good works mean nothing. We were born into Sin, that alone is enough to keep us out of heaven.
Another way of saying it is no man can 'earn' his way into heaven. Hence later, Ephsians 2:8-9.

I'll send a PM to Luke since CA, just about wrapped this up.  :)

Curious Aardvark wrote on Mar 11^th, 2013 at 8:23am:

Quote: The Bible says that your good works, without righteousness, are like filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6 and a few other verses). All I can say is that I'd rather have a filthy rag through genuine kindness than do a kind deed because I feel I should - whether I want to or not. When I help someone - I do so because I want to and because it's what i feel is the right thing to do, not because someone told me I have to. That is some twisted interpretation of kindness Dan.

If you do anything without the motivation of genuine kindness, especially if you do it because you were told to, that can in no way be considered righteousness.

I think you're misinterpreting what Dan wrote. I hold the exact same belief as him with respect to kindness and righteousness. Righteousness, in a Christian sense, is an aspect of morality. Righteousness is following not just the letter of the law but the spirit of the law as well, doing so because you know it is the right thing to do, and being content or happy to do so. If you do a good deed through kindness and generosity that is a righteous action. A righteous person commits only righteous actions -never shallow or selfish actions- and is therefore said to be free from sin. Righteous actions do not earn a place in heaven for the people that do them, only being a righteous person will. Because we are only human, being a righteous person is impossible to achieve by ourselves and requires accepting Jesus as savior to forgive us. But forgiveness is not a pardon, it requires repentance. Our transgressions will be like they never occurred, rather than just forgotten. But true repentance means that we no longer carry out those actions, hold those thoughts, and have an honest commitment to changing our character for the better. That's where the Christian prohibition on judging others becomes important. Only you can tell how committed you are to being a better person each day than you were on the day before.

I guess "Love thy neighbor" doesn't count for much anymore. :(

bigkahuna wrote on Mar 11^th, 2013 at 9:11pm:

I guess "Love thy neighbor" doesn't count for much anymore. :(

No-one's perfect. Just because we fall flat on our faces occasionally doesn't mean we're not trying.

bigkahuna wrote on Mar 11^th, 2013 at 9:11pm:

I guess "Love thy neighbor" doesn't count for much anymore. :(

Yeah it does. Sometimes its called the '11th commandment'. But regardless, you can never earn you way to heaven on good works to 'outweigh' the bad, the Bible is pretty clear with that.
Its only by the blood of Jesus Christ that you can be redeemed.

Then, you should definitely seek to serve and love others, as Christ did.  :)